Over the last several months I have been experimenting with several new bullets in both my 45-70 and 450 Marlin. First I picked up some Barnes Busters, then some Belt Mountain Punch bullets and, more recently, some 400 grain Woodleigh Hydros. These new bullets have literally transformed these two guns. Stick a Hydro in your chamber and some Busters in your magazine and that lion doesn't have a chance. A hydro in the chamber and a magazine full of punch bullets and that cape buffalo is yours. Hippo, no problem. Just load up a gun full of Punch Bullets. For me anyway, the debate over the suitability of the 45-70 or 450 Marlin in Africa is over and anybody who says they aren't is what I like to call WRONG!

If I could only get some elephants or cape buffalo to come to the Catskill Mtns I could test those bullets in my Browning 1885.
45-70-

Sacred cows or cape buff make the best burgers.

Dave- You know what happens next right? You now have to go to Tanzania and kill three buff with your 45-70 each with one shot or no one will believe you. When are you scheduling the trip? I might be willing to tote my .600OK along for back-up.-Rob

Rob:

I would love you to come along but no need for a backup. One shot, one buffalo....

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Rob:

I would love you to come along but no need for a backup. One shot, one buffalo.... one

What the hell kind of fun is that, travel all that distance to shoot ONCE? Not me! I like to shoot!

I like to empty the magazine, load up again and go to it! Anyway, I don't want to carry all that weight back with me! LOl

All sorts of EXCELLENT bullet choices these days in 45/70 and 450 Marlin!

Here are a few of my favorites if I were using a 45/70, which I have retired in favor of other things.

Michael: That's some impressive performance all right.
Sure be nice to see CEBs in .410 for the .450-400.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Michael: That's some impressive performance all right.
Sure be nice to see CEBs in .410 for the .450-400.

Do you mean something Like these?








Haven't been keeping up have you Bill?

LOL
Michael

Michael: Great! Just ordered a box to feed the Ruger No. 1.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Michael: Great! Just ordered a box to feed the Ruger No. 1.

Bill
Have some NonCons to go with that also now. First run of NonCons the cavity was not large enough to shear at low velocity. Larger cavity now, should shear.

Sorry Dave, Hi Jack Off.

Back to 45/70 and 450!

While this buffalo was obviously very dead, I was not pleased with the bullets. This was back in 2002, and we did not have bullets we have today.

I'll be making some solid copper cup point bore-riders in .22 caliber. I'm certain if I load em in my .22 LR Marlin SS ( that I got when I was 12 years old) that I could eventually kill a Buff with it. The eskimos reportedly shoot polar bears this way all the time! One shot one Kill!-Rob

Michael,
Since my son hase a .45/70 Marlin GG, how would those 400gr solids work with Sam's hollow base to up the velocity?

Why does this subject keep coming up?

It's illegal to shoot thick skinned dangerous game with 45-70s.

For lions and leopards there are far better choices than these heavy bullets.

You can shoot plains game with a 45-70. You can also shoot it with a 30-06.

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
Michael,
Since my son hase a .45/70 Marlin GG, how would those 400gr solids work with Sam's hollow base to up the velocity?

Max

The hollow base bullet is for sure an anomaly, and probably not fully explained to us, or fully investigated yet.

Right this moment, it appears to me, although we can lighten the load, we do not lighten the bearing surface, or overall length of the bullet itself. Velocity is not increased near as much as one would get with a shorter, lighter bullet. Bearing surface on the BBW#13s does not change from heavy to light, but length of the bullet still has a large bearing on how it works, or seems to work. I don't believe we can take that same 400 BBW#13 Solid, lighten the weight with a hollow base to 350 grs and get the same velocity boost that you would with a 350 BBW#13 Solid solid base. Notice, I stated "I don't Believe"---There is something there, but to what extent I am not 100% sure of just yet.

So............. still questions.


Indy

Why does this subject keep coming up? It's not actually the cartridge that is questioned or loved so much--It's the rifle package it comes in. The short lever guns, Marlin or Winchester, are so light, short, and easy to handle, we all find ourselves wishing to carry one of these all day long instead of some 10-12 lb beast of a thing. Even easier to handle than most 30/06 as well, and certainly shorter.

Todays bullets put these lever guns into categories they have never really been able to reach as well. It's about penetration, and these new bullets for .458 can penetrate. What they lack a lot of is velocity in which to hammer these animals, especially with the 400s. However I think when one drops to something like the BBW#13 NonCon and the lighter North Fork Cup points in this caliber, then you might have a different animal to contend with, and of course backed up with one of the super penetrating solids. I think it entirely possible to inflict more trauma with these bullets than ever before, and the penetration is there to ensure vitals are destroyed as well.

Lions and Leopards? Hmmmmm, yes, there are always better choices for anything you might choose! A big leopard is not so big, take a 325 gr North Fork Cup Point at 2000-2100 fps or a BBW#13 NonCon at 2100 or so, you are going to get that leopards attention and respect! Lion as well. Is there better? Of course, but this is not lacking either. Is it my choice? No, but that does not mean it's a bad choice either. If I use a lever gun on any of these it's going to be my 50 B&M Alaskan, .500 caliber hammer. Up diameter, and velocity with this and you move to an entirely different category, with the same exact rifle. So there are lot's of choices, and even better ones than this, but life is a compromise any way you go. I can tell you this, I'd much prefer the smaller rifles than the big long cumbersome heavy ones, now it's choose what will work within that criteria, and today there are EXCELLENT choices in small, light, short, fast and handy, with more than enough hammer to do any job!

That's why!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
Why does this subject keep coming up?

It's illegal to shoot thick skinned dangerous game with 45-70s.

For lions and leopards there are far better choices than these heavy bullets.

You can shoot plains game with a 45-70. You can also shoot it with a 30-06.

Indy:

Michael and Jeff are right about the light and handy thing. I am 63 now and I wish I had tumbled to this 40 years ago.

There is another concept at work here. There has been a quantum leap in bullet technology especially in the last 15 years or so and the guys who write the African game regulations have picked up on that. Calibers that were once marginal for game like buffalo are now perfectly suitable with one of new super bullets. Lately, I have been experimenting with Barnes Busters, Belt Mountain Punch Bullets and, this morning, I am going to try some Woodleigh Hydros. I think these bullets bring my 450 Marlin into a new league. Just my two cents.

To be quite honest, I still think the best use of a 45-70 ( with super bullets of course) in Africa, is for sticking under the rear tire of a Range Rover when it gets stuck in the mud! i.e for Traction Control! Its handy, its light and beats walking around in the mud looking for branches anyday! They also make just dandy tent pegs! Nail some dried and crossed baboon hands on em and your rolling in good juju!-Rob

I love the 450 Marlin...


that is all

Michael,
Thanks for the reply and info on the hollow base bullet. No, I was not going to encourage my son to hunt Africa with a .45/70. That is something his adrenalin-junkie father may have done years ago. Just was trying to increase his capabilities here and in Alaska. I thought that maybe a hollow base would allow more powder room.
Max

quote:

the debate over the suitability of the 45-70 or 450 Marlin in Africa is over and anybody who says they aren't is what I like to call WRONG!

Lessee here . . .

Muzzle energy equals 1/2 bullet weight times velocity squared . . .


I'd want more energy between me and a Cape Buffalo.

Dave, I used to get irate when folks talked of using their lever 45/70s in Africa, but I've mellowed.

It's your hunt and you ought to be able to go shoot what you want at what ever you can pay for!

Go get 'em!

Actually the formula for ME is Bullet Weight in GRAINS X Velocity squared divided by 450400gr/lb...

A 400 gr bullet at 1800 fs equals 400 gr x 1800fs squared /450400 or 400 x 3240000/450400 = 1296000000/4650400 or 2877.44ftlbs....2000fs = 3552ftlbs...2200fs = 4298ftlbs...2400fs(might be pushing the 45-70 case capacity a bit) = 5115ftlbs.

Using your formula it comes out 400 gr x 1800fs sq/2 = 1296000000/2 = 648000000??...basically the wrong conversion factors and way to use the formula.


Considering the facts that apples and cumquates keep being compared...AGAIN...and it is NOT the 45-70 or 450 M cartridges that are getting short shrifted continually and continuously, it is the MARLIN LEVERGUN in question...ANYONE having the foresight to bother with comparing ANY caliber using a 400 grain bullet in the 2000-2400 fs range, fairly easily attained in a 45 cal bolt gun...should be able to see the real picture.

You might also want to take a look at the ballitstics of the 450/400 NE, 500/416 NE, 416 Rem and Rigby...and a host of other similar cartridges all considered adequate for African/Asian DG and used ALL THE TIME.

I WOULDN'T use my Marlin 45-70/458 American switchbarrel levergun on ANY DG as a primary weapon even WITH a backup holding a 50 BMG, for all the reasons already used and worn out...unless it was that or ending up lionscat or the floor for a buff/ele to dance on.

BUT...I wouldn't have any problem using my Browning BLR 450 M loaded to the capacity of the receiver, pressure wise, as, so far, I haven't been able to jam it or miss-chamber a round no matter WHAT position I put it in...levering slow or fast...except when the magazine wasn't inserted correctly...and you can jam up ANY CRF, usually at the wrong time, as NOTHING MECHANICAL is 100% ALL the time.

Michael458 continually presents excellent data for totally destroying the happy horsesh*t that keeps coming up, as do all those who actually use the correct bullets and constantly harvest their game and give their results.

It also boils down to a personal OPINION and CHOICE...if someone wants to use a Marlin levergun in 45-70 cal on DG, then go in peace, be safe from evil...it is HIS/HER choice and NO ONE has the slightest thing to say about it...other than personal OPINION and all those can stand back all superior in their "knowledge" and make bad jokes...or not...that's THEIR choice.

If anywone wants to do some constructive online research...there is at least ONE account of a person who took an elephant with a Custom Marlin and the description of what occured is excellent and vivid.

Hell...I'm 70 this month, a total physical wreck from my life of "fun and games"...I don't even like carring my 10-15 lb heavy hitters from my loading shack to the bench for load testing...about 100 yds...but if I were after something with BIG feet, teeth, claws or horns...a 45-70 would not be even a distant flash of thought of what goes on the short list of rifles to take along on a DG hunt, and a heavy caliber AND gun wouldn't seem to weighty. I think my skin still has value, to me at least, and that's all that matters.


Luck

Just got back a couple of weeks ago from our forth PG hunt in Namibia in the past four years. I/we have taken several variations of 45-70 and 450M every year.

2008 - a #1 and a Marlin 1895GS, both in 45-70. Handloaded 300 gr JHP's and 405 JFP at published "modern lever action" (not trapdoor) velocities of 2300fps and 1800fps respectively.

Lesson(s) learned: Leave the JHPs at home.

2009 - two Marlin 1895's, one in 45-70 and one in 450M. Handloads with 300gr Nosler Partitions at 2200fps (45-70 & 405M) and 405gr JFP's at 2100fps (450M)

Lesson(s) learned: Stock up on the 300gr Noslers and was driving the Rem 405's way to fast as the jackets were separating.

2010 - same two Marlins again, plus a bolt action Mauser in 45-70. Handloads, same 300gr Nosler's, Hornady 350gr JFP at 2400fps and Barnes 330gr Banded Solid at 2400fps in the 45-70 Mauser and Cast Perf 420gr hardcast at 2000fps in the 1895M 450 Marlin.

Lesson(s) Learned - a .458 dia 330gr flat nosed solid and 350gr JFP projectiles at 2400fps deliver pretty impressive results. 330gr BBS had an end to end pass through on a medium sized mountain zebra and the 350gr JFPs would "sit" gemsbok down with authority.

2011 - same two Marlins again, plus a Win Mod 70 in 450M. Handloads were the same for the Marlins and the Win 70 had max loads of H4198 topped with a 350gr TSX (2400fps).

Lesson(s) Learned and re-learned: a .458 dia projectile at 2400fps is impressive. Only one TSXs was recovered from the four that hit gemsbok. Three of the four were broadside with the forth being recovered just under the skin on the hind quarter after entering the front chest and passing diagonally through the animal.

The 420gr Cast Performance was used on a large male baboon that was hit in the chest (facing us as walking on all fours) The bullet exited the abdomen taking a lot of his intestines with it, re-entered the hind leg, re-exited again taking most of his right ass cheek with it. It was also used on a nice old warthog. Two shots broadside, both pass through and both blowing large chunks of lung out with them. Also, used it on one gemsbok - first shot was front chest and passed through the body and stopped in the opposite hind quarter just under the skin. Second shot hit him a few seconds later as he turned broadside to run (only thing that cycles faster than a lever is a auto/semi auto or a double) and hit him in the high shoulder/spine and passed through - DRT.

Granted, the OP is referencing 45-70/450M for DG and all of my actual experience has only been on PG, but based on my experience combined with Micheal's testing of the solids - If you have a rifle that can safely push a .458 dia. solid projectile of 330gr or more above 2300fps, it feeds well and reliably what difference does it make if the cartridge case is head stamped 45-70, 450M, 458 WinMag, 458 Lott etc. Yes I understand the last two CAN take heavier projectiles faster, but I think it also proves the first two CAN be used successfully too.

Until Michael and CEB came up with solids that could cycle in the Marlin 1895 actions (2.54 COL max), the only bullets we had to choose/use are hard cast lead as the Barnes 330gr BBS is designed for the 458 SOCOM and is too long to clear the Marlin actions. You could drop one in the chamber and close it, but the only way to get it out was to either fire it or disassemble the action.

That is the reason I've added the bolt actions. My inventory of those is now three Siamese Mausers in 45-70, the previously mentioned Custom pre-64 Win 70 in 450M and a recently acquired Custom Ruger M77 (tang safety) in 450M.

For the record - I also have a 375 H&H and 458 Win Mag that have less then 100rds through each of them and have not been across the water yet and at this point...don't think they will be (at least not with me).

If/when I do the DG hunt, I intend to do it with either a 45-70 or 450M, just not sure if it will be a bolt or lever. The new solids being produced now change the game considerably.

Foobar

quote:

Michael458 continually presents excellent data for totally destroying the happy horsesh*t that keeps coming up, as do all those who actually use the correct bullets and constantly harvest their game and give their results.

Thank You! Very Kind!

You are also correct, it comes to choices we all make. Dave is a newbie to smaller, shorter, handier rifles, and has gone totally nuts over these short levers of his! He is on a magical path of discovery and it's fascinating to watch! I am on that same path of discovery myself and it's a blast!

m3taco

I see you are on a path of discovery as well, laid out from back in 2008! Excellent! I think you are seeing some amazing things happen when you apply a bit of velocity to some of those bullets in the bolt guns eh? Choosing some of those bullets, adding that extra velocity you can get in the bolt gun, turns the same cartridge into something else entirely.

This is the direction I am headed, have been headed, with the B&M Super Short series. Love those little 18 inch lever guns, personal favorite is the M71s, handle a tad more than the Marlins, but still nothing like the bolt gun pressures. The Super Shorts I can run up to 65000 PSI. They are exactly the same overall length as an 18 Inch Marlin Guide, with 16 inch barrels.

Since 2006 I have been so tied up with the Standard B&Ms, I have not had time to worry with any of the Super Shorts or even the 50 B&M Alaskan Lever guns. That is going to change over the next couple of years for sure, and I will be taking the Super Shorts to the field, along with the M71s in 50 B&M AK. It's the same path of discovery, no doubt. Combine these smaller, lighter, handier, rifles with a reasonable cartridge, and EXCELLENT bullets, one can work wonders eh?

It's all about the bullet! These cartridges are all enhanced far beyond the ground they have ever tread before, with these new bullets we now have.

I have plenty of those 325/295 BBW#13s, along with the 400/375 BBW#13s and of course do not forget the 325 and 350 North Fork CPS-Expanding CPS! All work thru the Marlins slick as can be!

Michael

[QUOTE]Originally posted by michael458:

Dave is a newbie to smaller, shorter, handier rifles, and has gone totally nuts over these short levers of his! He is on a magical path of discovery and it's fascinating to watch! I am on that same path of discovery myself and it's a blast!

It's all about the bullet! These cartridges are all enhanced far beyond the ground they have ever tread before, with these new bullets we now have.

Michael[/QUOTE}

Michael, why didn't you tell me all this stuff 30 years ago? A little .338 RCM or a big bore lever gun would have been a whole lot easier to tote up those mountains in Colorado. You da man!

Michael:

The 45-70 naysayers are still stuck with the 130 year old "Trapdoor" black powder and soft lead bullet mode.

While we were "over there" I picked up Selous's book "A Hunter's Wanderings in Africa". Very interesting. Especially, his use of his "4 bore" and black powder single shot for elephant and buffalo. It was interesting in that even throwing 1/4 lb lead balls at unknown velocities he still admitted loosing a fare number of animals.

Things have come a LONG WAY. Guess punching 1/2" diameter holes all the way through animals is just not enough for some. Suspect they will argue, "well, they might pass through but they only go 100 yards farther".

Is the 45-70/450M a "stopping" rifle? - clearly no. But then neither is a a 9.3x62, 375 H&H, 458 Win Mag. etc., but they are still viable DG rounds.

I would like to get a couple of boxes of your 325gr for the Marlins. Since Nosler quit making the 300gr Partitions for the 45-70, I only have 25 loaded rounds left and need to find a good replacement for them. I would like to run a few of the solids at 450M lever velocities and some at 450M bolt action ++ velocities.

Send me a PM with the prices please.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
Why does this subject keep coming up?

It's illegal to shoot thick skinned dangerous game with 45-70s.

For lions and leopards there are far better choices than these heavy bullets.

You can shoot plains game with a 45-70. You can also shoot it with a 30-06.

Indy:

You may want to check out this link on rifle/equipment minimums.

AR List of African Country Rifle/Equipment Minimums

Right on Michael...all those various paths of discovery usually lead way the hell and gone away from the "status quo" and make a guy get all happy and grinny when the AHA moments happen...trying to get what you learned, and enjoyed immensely doing, out into the rest of the world and not getting cranky with some of the negative responses is the tough part...

m3taco just put some very interesting information out there again and he has already posted some excellent information in the past...I wonder just how much of that "objective, actual" information will really be absorbed into the "collective".

Considering a 45 cal bullet starts out with a cross sectional area twice the size of a 30 cal and 1.5 times a .375...what's NOT to like.

Now if I could only get my Marlin to not to get all cranky and lose it's "composure" when I stroke it laying on its right side.

The 45-70 with modern loading duplicates the 450 BPE

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:


Michael, why didn't you tell me all this stuff 30 years ago? A little .338 RCM or a big bore lever gun would have been a whole lot easier to tote up those mountains in Colorado. You da man!

Dave
30 yrs ago I was playing with 45 ACPs and Black guns! Hunting had little to no interest to me back in those days! 15 yrs ago I was toting 458 Winchesters and 458 Lotts around. But at least my 458 Winchester had a 22 inch barrel-Maybe that was the beginning? Discovered the Guide Gun, had one when they hit the market! Then two, 3, 4 and so forth! Worked hard to get them up and running, but there just were no suitable bullets! Had them in Africa many times, they always come up just a tad short, I had no damned bullets! Cast was the best I had in those days. Shot a buffalo, nearly had a problem, not entirely because of the bullet, but no doubt I did not have enough gun or bullet! Did sort it out however, and with the Guide Gun as well, no extra help needed, but was lucky too! That was 2002. Today, different story.

I only really discovered what short and handy is all about beginning in 2005 swinging a big, long, heavy, cumbersome, 24 inch musket 458 Lott on a hippo at 6 yds, I knew there had to be something better than that! Found them later that year in the B&Ms with their short barrels and big fat bullets. But it took a few years to get the right bullets for them, have the bullets now! Never again will I be caught in the fields with BIG RIFLES. Even my own 500 MDM is too big and it comes in 3-4 inches less than a 24 inch lott, and at least 1.5 lbs! But even then, it's too big. But since I'm it's Daddy, had to take it out a few times!

Yes, had I discovered short and handy yrs ago, could have saved myself a lot of hard work as well!


m3Taco

Lead bullets don't cut it these days, not in rifles! Handguns, yep, still viable and a good hammer for handguns. Not for modern rifles of any sort.

Just PM me an address and I will get you started on some 295 BBW#13s NonCons and 325 BBW#13 Solids. I think you will find them rather impressive.


Foobar

quote:

trying to get what you learned, and enjoyed immensely doing, out into the rest of the world and not getting cranky with some of the negative responses is the tough part...

In some cases it's been a battle no doubt. But I stay determined to "Bring Light to the Darkness"


HEH HEH.... That's pretty funny!

Michael

This should stir the pot a bit.....

Just got a reply from Ian Goss (ZA PH school). I'm very seriously considering doing his PH school this Oct!!!. If I go guess what I am taking for a rifle!!!! (Hint - it will have a lever and be throwing .458 dia projectiles).

quote:

Originally posted by m3taco:
This should stir the pot a bit.....

Just got a reply from Ian Goss (ZA PH school). I'm very seriously considering doing his PH school this Oct!!!. If I go guess what I am taking for a rifle!!!! (Hint - it will have a lever and be throwing .458 dia projectiles).

HEH HEH

Maybe you can put on a "terminal" school. Just make a box of test medium, and test your levers against some of the old traditional things, like a round nose solid.

Modern bullets and firearms enable the 45-70 to become a "458 light". However, for just plain killing and penetration, a 500+ grain soft lead bullet moving around 1200 fps in front of a max charge of black powder is hard to beat. A lot of huge buffalo have been killed with similar loads and the bullets exit more often than not. Sharps shooters know what I am talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by SFRanger7GP:
However, for just plain killing and penetration, a 500+ grain soft lead bullet moving around 1200 fps in front of a max charge of black powder is hard to beat.

Is it the blackpowder that makes a 1200 FPS bullet so deadly?

I think that what is keeping this thread on track is the fact that experienced hunters using .45/70s with excellent bullets report that the cartridge is an excellent killer, but not a stopper. The same can be said of the .375, 9,3, etc.
It's an important distinction, but few question a hunter's choice to carry a .375 for buff, while many question the .45-70. With either gun, a poorly placed shot may bring the PH into play, while a well-placed shot with a good bullet will do the job.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
I think that what is keeping this thread on track is the fact that experienced hunters using .45/70s with excellent bullets report that the cartridge is an excellent killer, but not a stopper. The same can be said of the .375, 9,3, etc.
It's an important distinction, but few question a hunter's choice to carry a .375 for buff, while many question the .45-70. With either gun, a poorly placed shot may bring the PH into play, while a well-placed shot with a good bullet will do the job.

Interesting...

I think much of the pot stirring is part and parcle of no separation in many minds that there are many excellent GAME KILLING calibers and many excellent DG GAME STOPPERS and the two get rolled into one when they are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Bill alludes to this observation and the thought is always running around just under the surface in many hoohaws, but, again, the apples and guavas get mixed up together...and aren't separated out when talking, specifically, about the several popular shooters being used on DG.

Part of this "problem" is the fact of economics in the movement of guns and people(airline travel) and the caliber requirements concerning the different African game aminals...there is one "stopping" rifle for DG and another for PG and the "stopping" rifle gets double duty for both most times.

Thinking of one caliber/rifle as "the stopper" tends to blur the fact it is also an excellent "killer"...and using one bullet for all game does help keep accidents from happening...no chance of a mix-up at the wrong time. I always liked the K.I.S.S principle.

And today we are re-learning all about mono-metal bullets and also hard cast, heat treated lead bullets. A whole bunch of what is considered "proven knowledge" is getting blown away.

I've shot through 4 feet of lodgepole pine logs with 500-550 gr hard cast, heat treated 45 cal lead bullets and the bullet come out with only it's nose smeared. I've done the same with 12 ga "DG" slugs, at least 3 feet through and through...Looking at a recovered 12 ga slug and the kindling it produced gives one pause.

I've also shot through both shoulder blades of a fairly large Elk with a 54 cal smokepole with a soft lead round ball at ~1400fs when the ball hit.

I never quite understood why those bullets or BP were considered "useless" by some...4 feet of dry lodgepole is certainly harder to penetrate than muscle and green bone...and that flattened, now ~60 cal ball puts all the online armchair "stuff" into perspective.

I have limited experience with large calibers as I started late in life playing with them...most of my kills were with smaller cal, hi-velo rifles and pistols...boy did I miss out on the good stuff in the early years.

I think someone should do some bullet testing on large bone knuckles lined up one behind the other just to see hows the different metal bullets react. I would be willing to do such testing if I could find a frontman/woman with deep pockets to defray the costs ....

In reality, I think the quality and ability of the various mono-metal bullets have been proven beyond any doubt.

I think many of us have filed off the tips of various FMJ's and maybe did a bit of hack sawing and turned them into "dumdum" bullets way back in the old days...they worked well in my 30-30...for deer and varmints up fairly close...they definitely would turn a coyote inside out. Not too much different than todays CNC offerings except todays look much better...

Bullet placement has always been the key to success...shooting a bull in the butt is not quite sporting and tends to make him cranky...I don't blame him...do you?

Luck

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Dave, I used to get irate when folks talked of using their lever 45/70s in Africa, but I've mellowed.

It's your hunt and you ought to be able to go shoot what you want at what ever you can pay for!

Go get 'em!

I agree book your hunt shot stuff take pictures. Then come back and post away about the wonderful attributes of your chosen rifle/caliber combination.