Buff in the butt ?? No it's supposed to be in the lower spine which instantly paralyses the entire rear end.I did the same with my 44 mag with a red deer - high lung shot which made a glancing blow on a vertebrae.
I'm a bit surprised by the comments that bullet construction makes all the difference.Of course why not . My early 45acp vs 'chuck tests showed great difference as Speer developed 200 gr jacketed bullets.The original had 1/16" hole and would expand if a rock was hit .Then the 'coffee cup" bullet with 1/4" hole and jacket scored .That would not exit a chuck in a shoulder spine hit. Then the bullet without scored jacket ,it would exit the chuck.
Pure copper jacket or gilding metal, pure lead core ,1% antimony, 3%antimony ,hollow point ,flat point, bonded etc all made significant differences.
Hunting experience gives much better data than water jugs or sand !!

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
I think that what is keeping this thread on track is the fact that experienced hunters using .45/70s with excellent bullets report that the cartridge is an excellent killer, but not a stopper. The same can be said of the .375, 9,3, etc.
It's an important distinction, but few question a hunter's choice to carry a .375 for buff, while many question the .45-70. With either gun, a poorly placed shot may bring the PH into play, while a well-placed shot with a good bullet will do the job.

Bill:

You've again hit on the three most key points for a "hunting" round.

1. Shot placement - gut shoot any animal with any rifle and it is going to run a long time.

2. Bullet construction - If placed in the correct "spot" will the bullet hold together sufficiency to do fatal damage to the vital organs at the velocity required to get it there.

3. Velocity - can the cartridge generate enough velocity to get the bullet (see #2) deep enough into the animal to reach the vital organs and cause fatal injury/damage.

Then there is the "stopping" rifle.

I think the three items above still hold true but add a fourth.

4. Does the rifle cartridge, bullet and velocity deliver/transfer enough of the generated foot pounds/joules into the body of the animal to actually "stop" it even if vital central nervous system (brain/spine) are not hit.

Truth be told, I think there are very few actual "stopping" combinations out there and those that are aren't firearms that the average guys like us are willing to shoot on a regular basis. If that was the case, then maybe we should all be shooting 577's and 700's. But how far will a DG animal go if gut shot with one of those too?

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
I think that what is keeping this thread on track is the fact that experienced hunters using .45/70s with excellent bullets report that the cartridge is an excellent killer, but not a stopper. The same can be said of the .375, 9,3, etc.
It's an important distinction, but few question a hunter's choice to carry a .375 for buff, while many question the .45-70. With either gun, a poorly placed shot may bring the PH into play, while a well-placed shot with a good bullet will do the job.

To take it one step further, a poorly placed shot with a 577 NE will bring the PH into play as well.

I got started over the weekend doing some test work with some Punch bullets that Dave was so kind to send over. While they did not perform as well as the BBW#13 they are still very much in a league of excellent bullets and more than enough penetration for buffalo from nearly any angle shots. No rear shots with these, and probably NO BULLET from a 45/70 and it's velocity range, but none the less a severe raking shot from the side is no issue with these!







There are today many excellent choices for 45/70 that were not available only a few short years ago. While I contend I much rather have something that is capable of more diameter/caliber at the equal or slightly better velocity, or the same with more velocity to induce and inflict more trauma than what a 45/70 can do. But the penetration is there regardless.

Michael

Just FYI--An excellent bullet from North Fork that can be used in the 45/70 too, and primary designed for the 45/70. Maybe not a buffalo bullet, but would be excellent for bears and such.

Michael:

I just got off the phone with Kelye Schlepp of Belt Mountain. I told him about your suggestions and while I had him on the phone I directed him to this thread as well as the 45-70/450 Marlin in Africa thread so he can see the results as well as the nose profile on your bullets.

I talked to a friend today about buying a Texas longhorn steer to do some bullet testing on. Will probably give the meat to the Salvation Army. This is the only way we Nebraskans can get revenge on those darn Texans since they beat us in football eight of the last nine years!

quote:

I talked to a friend today about buying a Texas longhorn steer to do some bullet testing on. Will probably give the meat to the Salvation Army.

Dave

I believe I would see what he tasted like first before sending him off the the "army"? HEH........

Oh and now Belt Mt will like the BBW#13! They can round that edge off, will help them a bunch on the Punch! HEH.. Yes, I know, that was terrible!
M