Which of these cartridges are the most popular among the 50 caliber big bore bolt action hunting fraternity, 500 Jeffery or 505 Gibbs?

500 Mbogo beats both in my fraternity.
Any of the very real faults of both the 500 Jeffery and the .505 Gibbs are corrected in the 500 Mbogo.
See below for all the arguments against both antiques, which will be kindly pointed out by fellow members.
I dare anyone to find a fault with the 500 Mbogo "Flawless."

I would say the 505 Gibbs.

excluding CZ, the most built are 500 jeffe's.

the more popular, based of manf. bullet selection, is the .510

and the 500 AR fits in a standard action, and delivers performance equal to both FACTORY loads... from "cheap" brass

If we don't exclude the CZ - which is the most popular of the big bores - the 505 Gibbs wins.
Both are great stoppers with individual strengths.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
If we don't exclude the CZ - which is the most popular of the big bores - the 505 Gibbs wins.
Both are great stoppers with individual strengths.

except the cz, if we include them, is most commonly rebarreld to 500a2/510wells ..
and they are making 500 jeffe, too

While the 500 Jeffery advertised a higher velocity than the Gibbs - if it ever did reach the published velocities it did so with much higher pressure.
The Gibbs, being a larger cartridge, can either reach higher velocities with equal pressure or equal velocities with lower pressures.
It's the same argument the 458 Lott fans use to illustrate it's superiority over the 458 Win.
In addition the Gibbs is a conventional shaped cartridge and does not have the controversial rebated rim.

I have used them both and honestly can not tell a difference on game.

Phil,
they are loaded to the same pressure, in "classic" loading, though with new powders, the jeffe does it with less.

the jeffe/schuler was built around german flake powder, not cordite .. and solved the same problem, with a much smaller case.

run that forward to 2006, when I designed the 500 AR . that does the same threshold of work, but with less powder ...

the 505, the 500 jeffe, and the 510wels/500a2 are all over CAPACITY (not bore) for the threshild of power that they offer.

both did make their advertised loads, and do, easily ..


there were 11 original 505 gibbs made ...

there were many tens, if not hundreds, of schulers made, BEFORE jeffery took the cartidge on. then jeffery made like, what, 26, with house names on them.


it did NOT acheive it with "much higher pressure" .. it was roughly the same pressure, with much better powder.

Remember, the 505 gibbs was conceived to be loaded with CORDITE .. the same crazy powder that gave us the 303.

In other words, a wholely inappropriate powder (looking at it from today) was used that was more than certainly temp senstive.

Good post jeffeosso. Well said.

They both suck. You want a 550 Express or 550 Magnum, depending on your recoil tolerance.

on the other hand, we do have quite a few 505 Gibbs owners here on the AR forum. I am one. Compared to the Gibbs the 500J is a pain in the azz. As far as bullet selection, you need one soft point and one solid, and those are readily available. People make such a fuss over the bullet diameter, which makes about as much sense as arguing whether you should gap your spark plugs at .022" or .023". If you're like me, you will be casting 90% of the bullets you shoot for practice. If you want to buy factory ammunition it is Gibbs or Jefferys. The Gibbs operates at much less pressure,and CZ makes a beautiful one. See Wayne at AHR for a true custom rifle on the CZ.

Rich
CZ 505 Gibbs
Buff Killer

I have a soft spot for the ole Gibbs, the big bullets, and that mammoth sized case are a thing of beauty.

I would really hate to be on the receiving end of a 600 grain bullet flying at about 2300 fps.

Highjack on!
Behold, the future.
All other 500's will be obsoleted through their inferiority to the 500 Mbogo:

jeffeosso, You are basically correct on the history of the rounds ( Gibbs continued building 505's and a number of other builders besides Gibbs also made them but as far as I know few made 500's) but in today's world, with today's powders, the 505 Gibbs will easily surpass the velocities of the 500 Jeffery with less pressure. But as I said, both make formidable stoppers.

RIP....last time I saw something hijacked this hard, they ended up shooting the pirates!

That being said, IF one wanted to stay classic, and IF one was as predjudiced as myself, I say 500 Jeff...simply because I own and LOVE a lovely Heym bolt in such caliber. With a couple of loads reaped from RIP prior to his hi seas hijinks and shameless plugs,I easily get 535's to 2350 and they really aren't bad at all on the anatomy.

Of course all that other .505/,510 stuff out there ain't too bad either.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Phil
just to pick nits .. what action would have Gibbs continued to produce the 505 gibbs on, after the start of WWI, with magnum mausers no longer available, and basically the enfield was still employed in its original vocation? In fact, one might say that the little conflict about 90 years ago all but end gibbs producing 505 gibbs on mauser actions, and a rather long period of time elpased until a suitable replacement action would have been available

when i did the group purhase of several thousand rounds of 505 and 500 brass here on AR, the 500 jeffe was nearly a 2.5:1 better seller.

Perhaps the 500 jeffe, and the 12,7x70mm schuler were continued during and after that particular little war, without a resurgence of the gibbs until, well, the creation of a new magnum mauser for commerical sale and or the evolution of the enfield as being suitable?

In fact, like the 358 winchester, the 500 jeffe is a heck of custom gun builder's order filler .. and was kept in operation by bell, bertram, and even kynock before the demise of that operation (its now bertram brass)

aas for surpassing the 500 jeffery's velocities? Phil, there's few shooters who can master then 500 jeffe or 505 gibbs, at book, and probably less than 10% of those could handle what a 505 gibbs, run up to 55Kpsi, could do. It beyound my skill set, i expect.

But, of course, a 505 gibbs at 2600fps is no
Until CZ revived it, the 505 gibbs was dead as a doornail, with 10s of 500 jeffe's coming out of empire and others, and single digits coming out of people like wisener, wells, and breeding. Even dubell only make a couple by reboring ruger RSMs.

Just my thoughts, of course, and I could be entirely wrong.

here's a pic of my 3rd 500 jeffe, on the right, and my 550 express, on the left

i have since GREATLY reshaped the baeball bat foreend of the 500

quote:

Originally posted by GarBy:
RIP....last time I saw something hijacked this hard, they ended up shooting the pirates!

Garby,
Your funny is the ransom paid. I am skipping ship with the booty.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
on the other hand, we do have quite a few 505 Gibbs owners here on the AR forum. I am one. Compared to the Gibbs the 500J is a pain in the azz. As far as bullet selection, you need one soft point and one solid, and those are readily available. People make such a fuss over the bullet diameter, which makes about as much sense as arguing whether you should gap your spark plugs at .022" or .023". If you're like me, you will be casting 90% of the bullets you shoot for practice. If you want to buy factory ammunition it is Gibbs or Jefferys. The Gibbs operates at much less pressure,and CZ makes a beautiful one. See Wayne at AHR for a true custom rifle on the CZ.

Rich
CZ 505 Gibbs
Buff Killer

Rich:

I don't agree. I have the Jeffery. It is a wonderfully easy caliber to reload with either 535 or 600 grain bullets. In a CZ, I think the Jeffery is the better choice because the CZ simply does not have enough bolt diameter to accommodate such a large cartridge. I think people make way, way to much of the Jeffery's rebated rim. Frankly, I think it is easier to get a Jeffery to feed than to get such a massive cartridge like to Gibbs to feed. On other thing. Because the Gibbs is sooooo large, it takes a lot more powder to fill the case and, IMHO, the Gibbs generates much felt recoil.

maybe, but I am on my third 505 and second in a CZ, and none of them ever had a feeding hiccup. There are ongoing discussions about the problem with rebated rim cartridges. The much higher pressure of a 500J also concerns me. The 500J is also done for pressure by the factory, the Gibbs has a couple hundred fps in reserve.
Ah, cartridges; like beautiful horses and fast women, or is it the other way around...

Rich
Buff Killer

Neither.

The best, which is to say, most practical, workable, feasible and practicable, is the:

.500 A-Square.

Also known among the cognoscenti as the:

.500 Buhmiller.

570 grains at 2,500 fps. No muss and no fuss - brass and bullets available by the truckload at reasonable (to the unreasonable) prices.

I'm here to tell you that it flat out knocks them down.

As usual Jeff is full of it. The 500 Jeffery is the better option. The best is a 500 Jeffery improved (non rebated rim) or a 500 AHR. As Phil said however, after using both on dangerous game (and not so dangerous game) there is no true terminal ballistic difference. Finally, I believe the Jeffery is easier to make feed reliably. Now let the pissing match truly begin!

PS: The 500 A2 is a piss poor second or third option. IMHO and I have owned two of those too! (yes I realize that makes me a moron, but most of the "experts" here already know that )

My expert advise, build whatever you think will make you happiest.

quote:

build whatever you think will make you happiest.

50-110 in a single shot loaded hot ... no feeding issues and you'll never get a second shot with a heavy 50 anyway at typical dang-a-roos game ranges ...

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
PS: The 500 A2 is a piss poor second or third option. IMHO and I have owned two of those too! (yes I realize that makes me a moron, but most of the "experts" here already know that )

My expert advise, build whatever you think will make you happiest.

I will depart from my usual practice, and comment on one of your posts. I chose this one, because although it is regretfully typically idiotic, it is nevertheless somewhat interesting in its idiocy.

First, let me say that you are a repeatedly demonstrated, and complete, imbecile.

The grown-ups enjoy this site - and unfortunately, your puerile posing detracts from our enjoyment - except in those few cases where your sheer stupidity affords some compensatory measure of minor amusement.

I would suggest that you find something, such as a secondary education, to which you may devote yourself, that might improve your lot in life.

Although I hesitate to agree with you on anything, I do agree with your judgment that you are, in fact, a moron.

Finally, please shut up.

Yours very truly, as soon as Hell freezes over,

mrlexma,
Typical lawyer BS! I know you have not owned nor operated either a 505 Gibbs or a 500Jeffery, so your opinion is based solely off of an A2 that is is your problem not mine. I HAVE owned them all and I KNOW of what I speak.

Please though have a nice day!

PS: I have killed considerably more dangerous game than you have (from what you have posted anyways). I am sorry for you for that FACT.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Phil
just to pick nits .. what action would have Gibbs continued to produce the 505 gibbs on, after the start of WWI, with magnum mausers no longer available, and basically the enfield was still employed in its original vocation? In fact, one might say that the little conflict about 90 years ago all but end gibbs producing 505 gibbs on mauser actions, and a rather long period of time elpased until a suitable replacement action would have been available

Just my thoughts, of course, and I could be entirely wrong.

I don't have figures of how many 505's vrs 500's were made and doubt anyone else does either. I do have a friend in Anchorage with an original 505 made by Gibbs in the 1930's and suspect that they made more than 11 over the years. Plus, over here in America, firms like Hoffman, Griffen & Howe and Sedgley were also building 505's, so actions were obviously available.

You are correct that the CZ 550 bolt has minimal material for opening up to the 505 but as for which is easier to make feed I would love to hear from some of the best builders on the subject. I know D'Arcy Echols has two 505's on his bench and is building exquisit bottom metal, bolt stops and ejectors for the 505.

you know what's funny, I haven't been around much in a very long time, but still people are on my ignore list. trusting my judgement, I never take them off to find out why they were on their to begin with. but MR I see now you reinforce my confidence in my decisions.

Jeffe, can you send me or link me, to the dimensionals for all the AR cartridges?

Red

Red
Here you go --
the for 416, 458, and 470
http://www.weaponsmith.com/images/470458416AR.bmp

for the 500
http://www.weaponsmith.com/images/500-AR.jpg

Phil,
with all respect, my point is that the 505 gibbs did not have a platform from WWI till post wwII, while the jeffery did. The pressure differences are due to powder requirements, and certainly no animal would know the difference between being hit with one.

Who has pulled the trigger on the Gibbs firing a 600 gr bullet at 2300 FPS? Sounds traumatic!
I guess compared to the 600 OK's it is not all that bad.
I have limited my self to the 470 Nitro and 458 Lott so far.
One of these days I may trade in my Heym 88B 470 for a Heym 500 Nitro to jump into the 50 cal arena.

EZ
I have - with and without a muzzle brake .. with the brake, its trivial .. without the break, its brisk, but in no way as bad as a 460 weatherby (without brake)

to me, there's 375 and 416 levels of recoil, then the 458 lott, then the 500s, and then the crazy stunt guns, of which the 550 express is.

recoil is ALOT .. but not "tear your arm off"

and in a 10-11# rifle, it can be managed.

130gr of IMR 4831 gives 2300fps with 680gr hard cast bullets in my 9 1/2# 505 Gibbs. The recoil is memorable.
My standard hunting load is 570 TSX bullets @ 2100fps - which is much more pleasant.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
Who has pulled the trigger on the Gibbs firing a 600 gr bullet at 2300 FPS? Sounds traumatic!

570 grains at 2,500 fps is my hunting load. 110 to 113 grains of RL-15 (depending on the lot) will get that in my .500 A2. RL-15 is very efficient in the A2 case.

In a rifle such as mine, which has a heavy profiled barrel and a straight stock, with a wide and deep butt profile, the recoil is quite manageable. Somewhere around 102 ft.-lbs.

A rifle needs to be carefully designed and built to deal properly with the recoil of a .500-class cartridge.

I have found that AHR are among the very best in the business when it comes to knowing how to do that.

I've been lucky enough to shoot most of the 50 cals discussed and frankly, I found the real difference was in the various rifles, not the rounds. You couldn't slip a razorblade between the gap in their performance in the field.

Even though production of the magnum Mauser stopped after WWII, there were a LOT of actions and barreled actions in inventory in various shops around the world. It wasn't uncommon for barreled actions to be bought in lots and stay on the maker's shelf until a client made a request. There was no economy of scale for Mauser to make them one at time, or profit in keeping them in inventory in the Mauser plant. Same with smaller calibers and especially the odd shapes like my slant-box Rigby.

ezrider is asking a lot of questions about CZ and now 50 calibers. So FWIW, I chose a CZ in 505 gibbs for several reasons. None have anything to do with practical hunting considerations.

1. The 505 ctg looks better. MUCH better than the jeff. No rebated rim and no short neck. The 505 is nice to hold and just look at. Easy winner.

2. The CZ is a magnun length action and the 505 fits that action, while the jeff was designed to be shoe horned into a standard action. The jeff is the same kind of UGLY compromise as the 458 win mag, 300 win mag, - but worse.

3. Factory loads in 505 are available in 535 and 600 grain.

4. The CZ 550 has become notorious for feeding problems and the jeff was notorious for feeding problems. A risky combination. Also the Jeff had some dimension issues, german vs brittish. whcih I would guess are mostly resolve by now on the new guns.

5. I was under the impression the 505 had more actual history in the african field. I have no data to back up that idea. Sure were more then 11 guns built, no doubt there.

Maybe time for survey, choose your favorite DG 50?

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
Who has pulled the trigger on the Gibbs firing a 600 gr bullet at 2300 FPS? Sounds traumatic!

Its not that bad and I have never tried one that was braked. I have only shot one 505 Gibbs, but have shot my ex-500 A2 (600gr at 2450fps, and "ex" because it now belongs to Canuck32) many times. Conistent with mrlexma's comments above, this rifle is also very well designed for that level of recoil...which is very important!

I readilly admit, however, that I much prefer the level of recoil generated from an unbraked 470 Mbogo (500gr at 2500 fps). Especially when load testing or sighting in is required!

Cheers
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
ezrider is asking a lot of questions about CZ and now 50 calibers. So FWIW, I chose a CZ in 505 gibbs for several reasons. None have anything to do with practical hunting considerations.

1. The 505 ctg looks better. MUCH better than the jeff. No rebated rim and no short neck. The 505 is nice to hold and just look at. Easy winner.

2. The CZ is a magnun length action and the 505 fits that action, while the jeff was designed to be shoe horned into a standard action. The jeff is the same kind of UGLY compromise as the 458 win mag, 300 win mag, - but worse.

3. Factory loads in 505 are available in 535 and 600 grain.

4. The CZ 550 has become notorious for feeding problems and the jeff was notorious for feeding problems. A risky combination. Also the Jeff had some dimension issues, german vs brittish. whcih I would guess are mostly resolve by now on the new guns.

5. I was under the impression the 505 had more actual history in the african field. I have no data to back up that idea. Sure were more then 11 guns built, no doubt there.

Maybe time for survey, choose your favorite DG 50?

Most of this information is completely false. It's the .505 Gibbs that is "shoehorned" into the CZ action. The magazine box is barely big enough and the bolt face is too small. If you want to build a Gibbs, go with a Granite Mountain action or the new PH action from Montana Rifle Company both of which have a larger diameter bolt.

The Jeffery was not notorious for feeding problems nor is the CZ rifle. That is simply a not true. Sure, the Jeffery has a rebated rim but in a gun that is properly set up, they feed flawlessly. I know. I have one.

There are no "dimension issues." The CIP for the Jeffery cartridge has been standardized for a number of years now.

Ahoy mates!
Captain Rip is hoisting the Jolly Roger and boarding your thread again.

Whatever the 500 A-Square can do (or 500J or 505G), the 500 Mbogo can do better!

Of course there is still a need for the 500 NE 3", for double rifles and single shot rifles.
I must get one of those!
The 500 NE and the 500 Mbogo Flawless make a beautiful pair!

Now we have raised the black flag, spit on your hands, and cut the throats of the 500 Jeffery and .505 Gibbs ... or made them walk the plank!

Sumbuddy is doing a great job on the 500 Jeffery and .505 Gibbs above.
Both antiques are just about exsanguinated and drowned. Good work mates!
Daring sumbuddy to find a flaw with the 500 Mbogo is akin to putting them in a round room and asking them to go sit in a corner.

My 505 fits the CZ magazine and feeds fine including Norma 600 grain factory loads. Now, my 458 Lott also by CZ had some feed problems. When I spoke to AHR, they told me they have a thriving business fixing feed problems with CZ550. Just send it over. When, I discuss this on-line seemed to be some similar bad experiences. Not all, but some.

A great gunsmith can make anyhting feed flawlessly. A bottom price product like CZ is another story. I would not risk a jeff, I bet most end up at AHR, my gibbs did not.

quote:

There are no "dimension issues." The CIP for the Jeffery cartridge has been standardized for a number of years now

This is what I said. There 'was' a problem. German and Brittish did not get along well in the old days.

My first point, not disputed, hold both rounds in your hand and if its a beauty contest -Gibbs wins.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
My 505 fits the CZ magazine and feeds fine including Norma 600 grain factory loads ...

A great gunsmith can make anyhting feed flawlessly. A bottom price product like CZ is another story. I would not risk a jeff, I bet most end up at AH ...

My first point, not disputed, hold both rounds in your hand and if its a beauty contest -Gibbs wins.

WRONG! The 500 Mbogo wins the beauty contest.

Consider that CZ uses the same .375 H&H box on all rifles from .375 H&H through .505G and 500J.

That box is perfect for the 404 Jeffery,
and very close to perfect for the .416 Rigby.

I would like to see the box dimensions for D'Arcy Echols .505 Gibbs.

IIRC Jim Wisner made them too skinny for either .505G or 500J.

Yes, but your comment is a hi-jack. The original post was Gibbs v. Jeff. And this poster, ezrider, has other posts regarding the performance of the CZ, hence my semi hi-jack. The CZ is not offered in any mbogo ctgs.