I'm going on a baited black bear hunt and want to use my 458 win mag.
The only bullets I have shot through it and have are 500gr. Hornady DGX and DGS.

It is supposedly very very thick bush and if I get a shot I want to use a bullet that will give me the most damage, blood trail and knock down power I can get for a shot under 50 yards, probably closer.

I was thinking the 405gr. Remingtons.

What do you Big Bore Boys think?

Dog, yes, stick with the bullets designed for the 45-70. The 500gr bullets were designed for much tougher animals, and may fail to open. Just watch the velocity...no need to crank it up.

I'd try the 405 Rem. The 350 grain Hornady is ok too. 1600 fps for the Rem, maybe 1800 for the Hornady. Should flatten a bear at baiting range

Any of these will work but I'd think about a plain old Hornady 500gr Interbond. Great penetration when driven around 2k plus good wound damage w/o being excessive. The lighter guys may or may not exit. Bears have thick skin. I like 2 holes in them. Especially big ones

Don't run that 405gr remington bullet too hard, its pretty soft to push much over 1700-1800fps. The speer 350gr bullet is a great black bear bullet and you can run them pretty fast and still expect an exit. I was running them 2780fps out of my 458 lott.

I would take a hard look at the 350gr Hornady Round Nose. They feed great in the 458's I have shot them in.

I have killed game with them in a 45/70 and a 458 and in my 450 No2.

Velocities from 1800 to 2330fps.

In your 458 I would choose the most accurate load from 1800 to 2000fps.

My brother killed a black bear with one in his Marlin Guide gun in 45/70.

I've had good results in my .458 using 350 grain Hornadys at 2100 fps. Entance and exit holes about the size of a silver dollar. Lots of blood but little meat damage.

Barnes has a 350gr TSX designed for the 45-70. Load data for the Ruger #1 has this bullet at 2500fps. I'm using this exact set up for a baited Black Bear in May of this year.

+1 for the 350 gr. TSX. A 400 gr. North Fork or Woodleigh should also do quite nicely.

There has been lots of research & testing done with .458 bullets
http://forums.accuratereloadin...3/m/2861098911/p/181






<a href="https://cuttingedgebullets.com...DGBR-HP_S18LG_BBW_13%5B/url%5D" target="_blank">https://cuttingedgebullets.com...P_S18LG_BBW_13</a>
https://cuttingedgebullets.com...DGBR-HP_S18LG_BBW_13


PAPI

quote:

Originally posted by Dog Man:
I'm going on a baited black bear hunt and want to use my 458 win mag.

It is supposedly very very thick bush and if I get a shot I want to use a bullet that will give me the most damage, blood trail and knock down power I can get for a shot under 50 yards, probably closer.

I've pondered the same question, and hope to put my answers to the actual test this spring as well.

One thing I feel pretty confident about is that the 458 provides plenty of thump. I've also decided to not use significantly reduced loads. What's the point in that? If I was interested in less power, then it just doesn't make sense to me to choose a 458 in the first place. So, frankly, I'm shooting the load that I think will do the best job, and my shoulder doesn't object to. I really, really like what the 458 has to offer for this purpose.

There has been mention of various 350 gr bullets. That's what I would use. The Hornady is a good choice. Swift makes a great 350gr, and so does North fork. The Speer 350gr is plenty adequate for black bear. I've shot the 350gr Barnes at targets, and it's accurate. I firmly believe that it will exit a black bear at about any angle, and mess up everything in it's passage. If not I'll be surprised.

I've shot the 300gr SOCOM Barnes and it's impressive at the range. I believe it will dump a black bear on the spot, but since I have no first hand experience with it on game, it's just intuition right now, but I wouldn't hesitate to take it to the stand with full confidence.

Also, IMO, I would use loads generating at least 2200 fps at the muzzel, or more if your shoulder doesn't protest. 2400 or 2500 fps is not too much, but also, IMO, more than enough.

Use one of the 350gr bullets I mentioned, whichever shoots best, and push them a little, but not necessarily at top velocity. I suggest a load using H4895, and put enough powder in the case so the bullet seats with a little crush compression on the powder, (check it against the load data in a published manual) crimp the bullet firmly, test it at the range for accuracy, and for tolerable recoil. If suitable, take it hunting. I'm estimating such a load to yield something over 2300 fps, which is just right. DRT.

In the 458WM it's ok to use less powder than the minimum charge shown in the book for many of the powders. This statment is not applicable to ball powders, but powder like RL7, 4198, 4895, AA2230, H322, Benchmark and others have been used with cast bullets successfully. Before doing that, cross reference such loads with cast bullet data. Last summer, I started an experiment that I didn't finish. Hopefully I will get back to it again this summer. I was going to test, using the 350gr Hornady because they are not expensive bullets and I have several boxes, with 70grs of the various powders mentioned.(RL7, 4198, 4895, AA2230, H322, Benchmark) Test for accuracy and velocity.

For significantly reduced loads, use Trail Boss or SR4759.

My point is that with H4895 specifically, there is no special emphasis on using the highest velocity load. Any load within 60% of the max load is safe. Whatever your shoulder can tolerate. There is no need to mess with other powders this way, since H4895 works so well.

However, for my purposes I found slight powder compression useful because it helped prevent the cartridges in the magazine setting the bullets back in the case from recoil. The Lee crimp die helped with that too. I also found the slightly compressed loads to provide good velocity and excellent accuracy. It's basically a shortcut formula. You can see the powder level in the case before seating the bullet, and feel the slight crunch when seating the bullet.

If you want top velocity with a 350gr bullet, I suggest AA2230 and Barnes 350gr TSX. Such a load should turn your black bear inside out. In my light 458 with a 20" barrel, such loads are wicked recoil, which is why I like H4895 and 2300 fps, 350 gr loads better.

I think the 405 Remington would work for this purpose, since black bear aren't massive animals, or very tough. It's a very soft bullet. On the plus side, it will mushroom out - probably a lot - at velocity 1700 fps or faster. My notes show that 58-60 grs of H4895 (not a compressed load) gave about 1800fps with the 405 Rem bullet, out of my rifle. I just don't trust it as much as I do the other bullets I mentioned. Even though 350 grs, they are all a lot tougher than the 405gr Rem bullet. At the fifty yds or less you mentioned, if you are satisfied with 1700 - 1800 fps, then the 405 Rem should be acceptable.

For this purpose, I'm just not an advocate of the premium .458 bullets heavier than 400gr, such as the Northfork or Swift. I think they are just too tough. The 405gr Rem and 400gr Speer are not in the same class, since they are very soft in comparison. Anyway, the heavy .458 bullets, 450gr and heavier, are designed for deep penetration on very tough animals.

Again, in summary, I think the 350gr TSX at about 2300 fps MV is perfect. That's the load I'm gonna use. I'm pretty sure you can get it running 2500 fps with several of the powders, especially AA2230, if top speed is what you want.

KB

Sure are a lot of creative folks on this thread. With regard to softs, I will use just one load. 74 gr 2230 behind a 450 Swift. The bullet is stubby and will just about offer 100% case capacity with the load mentioned with a crimp in the cannelure. At 2270 FPS, it shoots relativley flat with a semi spire point. Will probably kill anything you can use a soft on and I have found the load that the load in my rifle will shoot 4 shots into a quarter @100 yards.
I never have to re sight the gun in for another load and it does recoil about 8-10% less than full 500 gr loads (according to website formula). I would shoot everything from Armadillos to the King on beasts with this load.
Accuracy and confidence goes a long way in my decisions.

EZ

Baiting means a tree stand for the most part. No full house loads for me in a tree stand. A 405 rem at 1600 fps will shoot completely through a good sized bear so I don't see a need for more.

I like the hornady 350 grain round nose. 2000 fps is good. You can drive it faster. Will be a through and through and leave a big hole.

With your diameter you should consider a solid. A flatnose solid would offer the most stability in thick brush, both as a first shot and a follow-up. 450 grains might be a good compromise weight. When it doubt go heavier, as long as your twist with stabilize the bullet.

I would never use the 405 Rem bullet again. I used two on an elk from a 45/70 and the bullets were so weak they exploded doing very little to stoP the elk. They were good for paper and beavers. I gave some away i was disgusted with them.

All this info is great guys, Thank you. 
If I was going to load it right now, I would go with the Hornady 350gr. RN or FP. 
Would the flat point be better for the brush?

I'm not worried about meat or hide damage and am not looking for an all purpose bullet. This hunt is convenient and gives me a chance to do some shooting with this gun that I have not hunted with. I figure with the 350gr. Hornady, I can also do lots of practice in preparation for elephant. 

Todd Williams,
My hunt is also in May. Good luck to you and it will be interesting to see the results if we are lucky enough to get some shooting. No matter the outcome, I will report back on the specific load I use with detailed results. 

I certainly am still open to suggestions but will not load any Barnes bullet for this hunt. 

The Guys with the 45-70s are always trying to load them hot, the Guys with the 458s are always trying to load them down. Should just trade rifles.

350 grain Hornady's are a good choice. Bears aren't that hard to kill anyway. I've killed them with a 32 Special, 8mm Mauser factory loads and a 20 gauge rifled slug. Good luck and be sure to give us a report.

Yes, the 350gr Hornadys are a good choice. I know a brown bear guide in SE Alaska who uses them and he told me in several conversations of how pleased he was with them.

I'm curious as to why the Barnes TSX is not in consideration?

KB

My hunting buddy wears a Barnes bullet hat everyday and wouldn't shoot anything else.
I'm a Nosler, Hornady, Swift kinda guy and I would never live it down if he caught me loading a Barnes.

It usually goes something like this,
"Link, if your Barnes bends over like a banana,
I can always drive over and finish it with my Hornady"

This is where I am right now and wanted to get some opinions on this load/bullet.



I still had plenty of room in the case. The recoil wasn't that bad. Do you think I should push it a little or be satified with that velocity?

That load and bullet should get you some black bear sausage and a nice black bear fur coat for the winter.
Go for it

quote:

Originally posted by Dog Man:
This is where I am right now and wanted to get some opinions on this load/bullet.



I still had plenty of room in the case. The recoil wasn't that bad. Do you think I should push it a little or be satified with that velocity?

The good thing is you don't have to load down the non cons and raptors. They love velocity. At 50 yards without a tip you might lose 150 fps but I don't see why that black bear would do more than twitch and fall in its shadow if put in the right place. With that accuracy I see no need to do any more load development but I think 2,600 should be achievable. Good luck and take lots of pics.

DogMan

If you use the 295 BBW#13 NonCon you will see performance that you have not seen before. I am still in Africa right now, just finished testing 350 gr .500 caliber Raptors and 210 gr 9.3 caliber Raptors---BBW#13 NonCon side only, 15 animals from impala to eland--stone cold dead--more damage internally than I have ever seen in my hunting career. These bullets very light for caliber, no bullet recovery, all complete penetration. Hit the front end of your bear, he cannot survive.

Michael

My experience with .458" on bl. bear:

1)Marlin 45-70, 400gr Speer @ 1865 fps; distance to bear 100 yds. Impact vel. about 1500 fps. Hit low behind right shoulder. Massive wound but shallow. Trophy class bear went 10 yards, piled up in alders. Gave a finishing shot. The initial bullet expanded too violently (3" entrance) Bullet from first shot never found. Bullet from 2nd shot retrieved under hide in offside armpit (90.5% weight). I'd not recommend the 400gr Speer at over 1500 fps when range is only 50 yds.

2) 45-70 Guide Gun: 405 Remington at 2075 fps. Range 90yds. Angling away shot. Bear hit in ribs of left side, made exit between neck and shoulder of offside. A bang-flop... it never even wiggled. Entrance and exit = quarter size.

3) Ruger No.1 in .45-70 (Improved): 500gr Hor. Interloc at 2185 fps. Range 40 yds. 175 lb bear. Hit behind right shoulder, made exit in offside flank. Bullet size entrance and exit. Bullet never expanded. Bear went 20 yds and bawled. A two-foot loop of bowel exited with bullet but never ruptured. The exit wound was 1/2"! A devil of a time getting it pushed/pulled back inside body cavity without breaking or puncturing it.

4) 458 WM, 350gr TSX at 2750 fps. Frontal chest hit at 90 yds. Bullet made exit in front of right hip. Medium bear went 40 yds. The bullet never expanded.

5) 45-70, single shot NEF. 465gr hardcast at 1900 fps. Frontal chest hit on trophy size bear at 70 yds. The bear dropped so fast in the 3-ft tall grass that I initially lost sight of him when the rifle was coming down from recoil (I was in a treestand). He never even wiggled! No bullet expansion either, but it had a flat tip, and a friend at 350yds heard the loud "thawk!" He said: "I knew either you hit the bear or a large tree!"

6) 458 WM, 350gr Speer at 2335 fps: range 70yds. hit smallish bear going away in short ribs. Exit was the back of the neck/head. Massive damage.

This year I've loaded some 350gr Hornadys (FT) at 2240 fps from my Ruger No.1. VERY accurate. They are for backup to my 9.3 X 62.

From a LOT of testing and the above experience, I'd forget the 350 TSX. It's made for a .458 WM or Lott for things like Cape buff or lion according to a Barnes rep.

The 400 Speer isn't a good choice either, unless you really slow it down.

The 405 Remington has worked very well for me. In tests it has proven much tougher than the 400gr Speer.

The 350 Speer is another story. It's a great bullet from a 458 WM at up to 2500 fps+. I've loaded some in my Ruger #1 45-70 IMP at 2500 fps for just that purpose. They are plenty accurate. A tough bullet that will NOT expand unless you give it some speed.

Just some experiences and suggestions. But NONE were better than that hardcast 465gr.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Thank you for all this info.
Hopefully I can get some gory photos of my own
and will post a report.

Dog Man, nice group! Now back up to 20 feet! :-)

50yds Biebs.
But, I didn't shoot again as I didn't want to turn it into a 3" group.

quote:

+1 for the 350 gr. TSX

You can't over kill Bears. You don't want a bullet to penetrate, you want a bullet that will PERFORATE. Aim for the front shoulders and destroy EVERYTHING inbetween them - to hell with the shoulder meat. You want two big holes: Hair, hide, and fat plugs things up amazingly well.

There is nothing worse than crawling on your hands and knees following a spotty blood trail from a wounded bear you had to leave over night, especially in Grizz country.

There is nothing better than hammering a big bear and watching a big ball of hair, claws, and blood roll down the side of a mountain, and never even twitch when he finally comes to a stop at the bottom.

30 yd. broadside shot right behind the leg. He went 18 yards. The CEB 295gr. super short performed exactly like they said it would.

I found these two petals under the offside hide, 6-8'' away from the .458 caliber exit wound.




My Taxidermist was amazed that there was only small entry and exit holes in the hide. This picture is of the carcass laying on it's side with the front leg/shoulder removed. This is the entry wound. To me, this is what separates the CEB from all other bullets.


The other petals must have done this damage to the liver.




This was a ton of fun for me. Sure, I could have killed this bear with my 30-06, but it was a perfect opportunity to use this gun. I feel that it and the CEB performed flawlessly. Thanks for all the info and help.

Dogman

Excellent bear--congratulations on your successful hunt!!!!!!!!!

What you just observed on your bear is exactly the same results I saw on 15 animals in April--all thin skinned species of plains game. And, in addition to that, last years hunt for buffalo and other assorted critters.

Taxidermists are going to LOVE the BBW#13 NonCons--small hole in the skin, both ends, under the skin on the entrance HUGE devastating wound, blades working with the bullet causing massive amounts of trauma and destruction. Then blades leaving the bullet path becoming secondary projectiles in their own right, as you see in other vital organs, the liver for example. That is blades, no doubt.

Congrats again, and that is a fine bear.

Michael

Congratulations!
Or should I say "Non-Con-gratulations"!!!! Lol
Well done!
More evidence that seven terminal projectiles are better than one!

Dogman,

Great report! Impressive photos!

Outstanding!

Thanks for all the info, I'm getting a 458 this month (hopefully), so the information here is great!

Beautiful Bear!!! Congrats

Wow, just wow! Had to look again, after seeing this copied on the "NonCon-Terminal" thread.
To Dog Man:

So the petals made it to the offside hide of a bear at an impact velocity of 2,450 fps?
Did any of the petals exit?
Goes to show what a .2 SD and decent impact velocity can do.
Velocity over higher SD with non cons and raptors and thin skin game.

Dogman

Got a question for ya! I have a page on the B&M website concerning Non-Conventional Bullets;

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...ntional-Bullets.html

Here I explain how they work, what they do, and this, that, the other. Could I get your permission to use your report and photos on this page?

Also, Dan at CEB Bullets would like your permission as well to use some of your photos for the CEB Website?

Thanks in advance

Michael

Dog Man

Nice bear ! I bet there was no ground shrinkage on him.

A great autopsy report !