Left to right above:
.458 Jumbo, .458 Tembo Short Nose, .458 Tembo Long Nose.

.458 Jumbo:
Shortened .338 Lapua Magnum necked up to .458
COL as shown = 3.337"
Max brass length = 2.520"
Trim-to brass length = 2.510"

.458 TemboSN COL as shown = 3.550"
.458 TemboLN COL as shown = 3.750"
.458 Tembo brass max length = 2.700", trim-to length = 2.690"

I have found that my .458 Lapua brass, after fireforming and full length sizing seems to be divided into two lots spontaneously. About half of them end up averaging 2.698" long, and the rest come out averaging only 2.660" long.

A brass phenomenon that I do not fully understand.

Anyway, the brass seems to be crying out to be made into a shorter version of the Tembo.

The .500 Jeffery has a short neck about equivalent to this short version. The .500 Jeffery base diameter is 0.619". The Lapua base diameter is about 0.589".

If a .500 Jeffery will go in a standard Mauser (not a good idea) then the .458 Jumbo will go in the Standard Ruger Mark II Stainless, or any WinM70 from 7mm on up. In fact, it will clean up the .458 WinMag Chamber nicely.

Jeffery + Tembo = Jumbo = BS = BoomStick

boom stick, you are re-hired as TA!/VPM at HA!/DOA.

thanks boss...

so if you have a 458 win mag and want 300 more fps with a 500 gr bullet or less with low preasure the 458 jumbo is your elephant

i think i want a detachable magazine that can get 4 down single stack

so It looks to me like there is less than "a caliber" of neck holding the bullet? Just out of curiosity, what would the min standard be for that sort of thing? I have seen a couple of folks talkin about here and there in the forums and they were sayin at least " a caliber" of neck to grip the bullet.

Boomer,
You are welcome. I will mail the above three pictured dummies to you. Do some thinking over these, and don't forget the smoking jacket and brandy snifter. Post any ideas here. I am afraid I have to get back to work for another week, so I will be scarce for a while.
Happy New Year.

thanks...via con dios and godspeed

.

quote:

Originally posted by gixxer:
so It looks to me like there is less than "a caliber" of neck holding the bullet? Just out of curiosity, what would the min standard be for that sort of thing? I have seen a couple of folks talkin about here and there in the forums and they were sayin at least " a caliber" of neck to grip the bullet.

That makes the .500 Jeffery (with .334" of neck length holding a .510 caliber bullet) a bad design.

Or does it really?

The .458 Jumbo has a neck that is close to 0.300" long, holding a .458 caliber bullet. Should be as good as the .500 Jeffery in this regard, AND NO REBATE, and plenty big enough for anything that walks the earth.

with all due respect alf 2.5" is not a shortmag and has more capacity than the lott so preasure is not realy a question, i am perplexed...wildcatting is 50% perceived benefit and 50% actual benefit. neccesary...hell no but a lot of fun.

you could do 2300 fps with low preasure with a 500 gr bullet in tough as nails brass...that is a good benefit if you want to go through all the trouble and expense

dont forget many standard carts we use today were wildcats

dont forget this is all for fun and amusement

What about the necks? I am not tryig to rag on ya, just was wondering about what is too much and too little neck.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
RIP:

A question:

All these wonderful names and designations remind me of the american car trade, lots of new models with fancy names and all not worth shit?

Alf,
Who shat in your corn flakes?

The .458 Tembo was the .45 Lapua several years ago, McGowen Stainless 10" twist, and I have posted pictures of that rifle and the .338 Simba, both CZ's.

I had a second .458 Tembo with the factory barrel by CZ, but took that off and put on a Dan Lilja in .375 Nyati (9.5x69mm Tornado) with an RSA made ArmTec synthetic stock.

That's 3 of the Big Five Lapua's.

A .423 Kifaru is under construction with a Dakota 76 African action and a McGowen stainless 10" twist barrel to be 24 " long, for comparability to my .404 Jeffery. This will give some ideas of velocities versus pressures between those two.

That's 4.

The .308 Chui is available as the .300 Lapua (CIP).

That's 5, though yet to begin construction on that, but load data for it is in the Lapua manual.

At least I have not set back any lugs on Oberndorf Mausers chambered in .500 Jeffery as some have, eh?

Lighten up old boy.

HA!/DOA is also about poking fun at some proprietary lines out there.
If you don't get it, then don't sweat it.

gixer...tension on the bullet, holding the bullet true, getting the bullet out of the case for more capacity and accuracy to name a few but the gains of capacity and 300 max fps gain over the published 458 win mag or lower preasure outweigh the slight possibility of something going amiss.

Thanks Boomer. I had to remember that not all wildcats are blown out and shaped to be like factory rounds only fatter.

Might as well just call it the .458 Boom Stick.
Alf can call it the .458 BS.

Now I gotta have one built on a stainless Ruger M77 Mk II, with a 23" barrel: 10" twist McGowen barrel.

Look out Jumbo, the .458 BoomStick is coming.

Variety is the spice of life at HA!/DOA.

my first production wildcat



thanks again rip for this honor

this poor ruger dont know what its in for

a past rip quote regarding grains of water case capacity f.y.i

.416 Remington (RP brass): 104 grains
.404 Dakota (Dakota/Jamison brass): 105 grains
.404 Jeffery (Norma brass): 114 grains

.375 Lapua (Lapua brass): 119 grains
.423 Lapua (Lapua brass): 120 grains
.458 Lapua (Lapua brass): 121 grains

boom stick,
I'm still on Federal Holiday today, but have to get back to my "day job" tomorrow.

While I am away until next weekend, I would like to hand over the PR for this cartridge to you.

Those case capacities were based on shorter brass length for the .458 Tembo. I thought they all necked up and shortened from the .338 Lapua length of 2.724" to 2.666".

I measured a 2.666" .458 Lapua for that 121 grains of water capacity.

I now see that about half of my cases come out at 2.698" after fireforming and full length sizing. I trim these to 2.690" and load as .458 Tembo.

The rest of the brass comes out at about 2.661" average length after fire forming, and re-sizing it brings it back to about 2.666".

The 2.666" pieces are obviously marked for "The Beast." These will become .458 Boom Stick brass: trim to 2.510" (That is what your dummy is), let grow to 2.520" max. There is lots of play room on the cannelure for crimping to same COL (3.337") by seating up to 0.010" deeper.

At 2.520" length, the neck is only .289" long.
.458 BS neck/caliber ratio = .289/.458 = .631
.500 Jeffery = .334/.510 = .655

Chamber the rifle with a .338 Lapua Magnum reamer with live pilot, .458 pilot.

Then cut the neck and throat with the standard .458 Lott reamer. Just have to shove that one in 0.300".

The standard .458 Win Mag reamer is too sloppy for a precision, long range .458 Boom stick, but of course it would do nicely for a short jungle carbine.

That's how we will be doing it at HA!/DOA.

I am going to figure the specs for a sheetmetal magazine box with steel reinforced front to go in a Ruger Mark II and leave the rest to the mechanical engineer/gunsmith at Hilltop Arms.

If we get into a lot of orders for the .458 BS, we will have to get a Dave Manson all in one reamer and a truckload of custom dies from Redding.

The company logo-photo will have to add the seventh sin, er uh, seventh cartridge, to the line-up, the squat beast between the .423 Kifaru and the .458 Tembo: .458 Boom Stick

Now I really gotta go for a few days.
Take good care.

rip..
you cut 3 of these down and try to get to feed in a ruger or win?

I did... and then didn't order the reamer...

what i *did* do was design around the firearms in question... and, well, yeah, case capacity is case capacity... bigger wins...

stick to the gaint actions, mate, and you'll go far...

try to make a rigby case, of ANY length feed in a model 70 means single stack mag... one simply can't cut the rails back enough to not have it empty the mag through the top ... that is, put 2 in the mag, clsoe the bolt, jerk the bolt back to hard stop (as one does under pressure) and BOTH rounds come flying out.

Nice to "blaim" alf on the metal of a mauser failing.. you might actually acclaim him for having the sense to know the problem and have it fixed.

yeah yeah, rant on about rebated rims... it's PII

jeffe

is there a way to get a high capacity single stack feed in a detachable magazine for say a savage?

this one has a detachable internal magazine

http://www.savagearms.com/116fss.htm





a little weldind a little cutting?

.

i think the questions are

will it work?...yes
will it be accurate?...enough for d.g.
will it have enough fps with a heavy high s.d. bullet?.....a big yes
will it cycle well and work under preasure and extreme conditions?...depends on the smithing and action
how many down?...depends on smithing
is it easy to form?...yes
are components good and avaliable?...yes

it is clearly not for everyone but it will be fun

I really gotta shut down the PC so I don't come back to gawk at this phenomenon anymore for a while, but one last hurrah ...

Good point jeffeoso and boom stick, about the single stack, that would be nice. I'll see what the HA!/DOA engineering/gunsmithing department has to say about it. I really don't want a Savage though. Ruger or Winchester.

Of course I would love to see what anyone else can come up with.

ALF,
Looks like nobody shat in the cornflakes.
Chains are often yanked, yes, but that is what makes this fun. I can tolerate a short neck, but not a rebated rim. Got the .500 Jeffery beat there.

I am quite the student of pressure, thanks in part to our literature exchange through the mail, and of course your elucidations on this site.

You have definitely firmed up some things in my mind about never again wanting to open up an M98 action to longer length than it was made for, and for taking loading data and velocity and pressure claims with a grain of saltpeter.

That is why I am hesitant to go beyond the .416 Rigby case head, and that is smaller than a .500 Jeffery, concerning thrust issues, eh? This Professional Small Boy knows his limitations (fly by seat of pants) and the limitations of his firearms.

Getting a 22" barreled (10" twist) .458 Boom Stick up to factory 24" .458 Lott speed (2200 to 2250 fps with 500 grainers) using Varget or RL-15 is the goal. No more. Of Course 450 grain FN solids will be a natural for the .458 BS at higher speeds.

We'll just have to wait and see how fast with how short a barrel and how heavy a bullet that boom stick is willing to push his namesake.

Too much fun!

hmmmmm...

jungle carbine...

hmmmmm...



ugly as hell!!!

Yes boom stick it is very ugly!
However, in never mind how many years ago, a similar boat anchor was used to take my first moose.

the jungle carbine is a visual gag...the boom stick deserves better...

yeah its oooogly but a single stack mag will stick out like that

you know for the right price i could make you up a long mauser action , mine (only made 2 of them so far ) one in 475 a&m magnum with a 27 inch tube , and one with a 26 inch tube in 500 asquare with a 16 inch twist , both look look like the old trade rifles in 375 , but with nicer wood , this week i'll try to get a picture up for my profile , the makeing is fun , but a lot of sweat and work to make work well and feel smoothly ! the next one i do will probably be a 470 capstick for my uncle as he loves that cartridge as he met lott and liked him .

just a visual comparisonof the lapua to the winmag...just immagine the 2.5" case length opened to 458