I've been watching this post with great interest, I don't post here much however I read volumns here.

I've had a Mark V 416 WM for coming on 15 years now, the recoil never has bothered me. Earlier this year I went out with a friend that has a Mark V in 378 WM. I loaded 3 rounds in it and shot them off hand with no problem. The recoil wasn't unbearable by any stretch.

After firing the 3 rounds I noticed a nick on my right middle finger between the nuckle and the first joint. I realized that in recoil the rear of the triggergaurd smacked my middle finger.

The week after shooting this rifle I got thinking that my 416 has never done this in the couple of hundred rounds I've put through this rifle. So I took the 416 to the range the following weekend. In the half a box of ammo through the gun there was no more beating on the middle finger.

The 378 had noticably more rapid velocity. I can't say that the 378 had any more muzzle rise than the 416. I really couldn't tell any difference in rise.

All in all the 378 wasn't the beast that I had heard over the years. It would take some modifications in my grip strength to shoot it regularly but that is a minor problem to overcome.

Cheers,
Sam

quote:

Originally posted by Heat:

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
Say what? If the 460 is shooting a 500 gr TBBC at 2700 and the 378 shoots a 300 gr TBBC at 2950, the 375 bullet is accelerating much faster in the barrel and it is that extra recoil velocity that makes it hurt, rather than the absolute ft lbs of recoil energy.

Add to that a muzzle pressure of almost 14k psi for the 378 versus 12.5k for the 460 and you have nearly 1500 psi of additional gas thrust in an un-braked barrel. Those influnces add up to a sharper recoil impulse that hurts more (to me anyway) when firing the smaller caliber.

Just quoting the math my friend, nothing more. Perhaps there is something that the recoil calculators don't take into account that I'm not familiar with.

Ken....

I know how the math can look, for sure. Sometimes it can obscure some things that usually don't have enough influence in smaller cases, like the jet effect through the smaller orfice and the higher gas velocity behind the faster bullet.

I shoot a 550 Magnum which is exactly the same case opened to 55 caliber with 700 gr bullets @ 2350. It burns about 20 grains more than either Weatherby and I would rather shoot it ten times than a 378 five. Both without muzzle brakes, of course.

OUCH the memories.

When I was about 18 - 19 years old, we had a customer come in and had to have a Weatherby MK V Custom in 460.

Cash deposit and he even picked out the scope, and rings.

Once it came in we mounted the scope, and then he wanted me to sight it in. OK I thought this will be fun, NOT.

After 3 rounds from the bench, the nicely checkered bolt handle had cut the outside of my trigger finger. By the time I had sighted it in about 8 or 9 rounds. I had a Migraine, and when I got up off from the bench I just about fell over. I finally wandered down range and the neighboring farmer came over. He had been cutting hay about 40 acres off to the left hand side of our backstop. When he was the farest away from the backstop was when I would shoot.

He wanted to know what kind of gun I was shooting, that made that much noise.

Needless to say, Still carry a scar on my finger, and will never again shoot an 460. The seaveral 505 Gibbs, I have owned was never that punishing.

James Wisner
Custom Metalsmith

Gotta say that despite the retoric, I consider the .460 WBY a starting level Big bore way inferior to the 505 gibbs in recoil( my well calibrated shoulder).
One thing to really consider is recoil velocity and stock design. High pressure cartridges with high recoil velocity like the .378 Wby when combined with poor stock design can really wack those who let the gun get a running start on them. Stock too short for you, your just asking for it! You have to pay attention to things like where you place you hands( triggerguard whacks) and where the buttstock is placed. When I watch people shoot, I can always see why they get hurt. You do need to have a fair amount of hand and upper body strength. If your hand slips under recoil you will get wacked. Dont let it happen. Practice shooting something heavy like a Garand offhand, you'll develop the strength and the skills for a big bore. If shootaway ever tries a .378 wby and videos it, you'll see a shot once, dropped once, sold once example of bad shooting style from every aspect. Hes probably just dumb enough to do it too!
I dont shoot big bores of the bench ever. I can shoot well enough offhand at 50 yrds to sight them in without the need for a bench session where all the physics work against you. Even the British invented the standing rest for a reason! These ARE NOT BENCHREST GUNS! Shoot em offhand and learn to roll with the recoil. Its not hard! Shoot em at 25 and 50 yrds cause thats where they will be used. Not 100yrds. Do the pie plate exercise and be honest! Thats your max range. Most cant stay on a pie plate offhand at 50 yrds for 5 shots.
Learning to shoot a .460wby well is just like getting training wheels for a .600OK. Its not about being a superman, its about paying attention to the fundamentals. -Rob

Big bore recoil can be compared to taking a punch to the upper arm area.The more punches you take,the bigger the bruise and the weaker the arm becomes.Eventually the arm muscle becomes almost useless and the punches hit very hard and directly directly on the bone.This is when you need to stop shooting and let the muscles heal and grow back again.If you are twice as strong,it only means that you might last twice as long.This has been my experience so far with my big bores.The one thing that I found that reduces recoil is the angle the rifle is ponted at.If you start high,there is a chance that the muzzle blast will work to lift the rifle up and roll over instead of directly back at you.

^ Oh boy, here we go...lol

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Big bore recoil can be compared to taking a punch to the upper arm area.The more punches you take,the bigger the bruise and the weaker the arm becomes.Eventually the arm muscle becomes almost useless and the punches hit very hard and directly directly on the bone.This is when you need to stop shooting and let the muscles heal and grow back again.If you are twice as strong,it only means that you might last twice as long.This has been my experience so far with my big bores.The one thing that I found that reduces recoil is the angle the rifle is ponted at. If you start high,there is a chance that the muzzle blast will work to lift the rifle up and roll over instead of directly back at you. If you start high,there is a chance that the muzzle blast will work to lift the rifle up and roll over instead of directly back at you.

The problem with that is I have never shot a flying Buffalo

quote:

Big bore recoil can be compared to taking a punch to the upper arm area.The more punches you take,the bigger the bruise and the weaker the arm becomes.Eventually the arm muscle becomes almost useless and the punches hit very hard and directly directly on the bone.This is when you need to stop shooting and let the muscles heal and grow back again.If you are twice as strong,it only means that you might last twice as long.This has been my experience so far with my big bores.The one thing that I found that reduces recoil is the angle the rifle is ponted at.If you start high,there is a chance that the muzzle blast will work to lift the rifle up and roll over instead of directly back at you.

Spoken like a true MORON

quote:

Big bore recoil can be compared to taking a punch to the upper arm area.The more punches you take,the bigger the bruise and the weaker the arm becomes.Eventually the arm muscle becomes almost useless and the punches hit very hard and directly directly on the bone.This is when you need to stop shooting and let the muscles heal and grow back again.If you are twice as strong,it only means that you might last twice as long.This has been my experience so far with my big bores.The one thing that I found that reduces recoil is the angle the rifle is ponted at.If you start high,there is a chance that the muzzle blast will work to lift the rifle up and roll over instead of directly back at you.

This is a joke right

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:

quote:

Big bore recoil can be compared to taking a punch to the upper arm area.The more punches you take,the bigger the bruise and the weaker the arm becomes.Eventually the arm muscle becomes almost useless and the punches hit very hard and directly directly on the bone.This is when you need to stop shooting and let the muscles heal and grow back again.If you are twice as strong,it only means that you might last twice as long.This has been my experience so far with my big bores.The one thing that I found that reduces recoil is the angle the rifle is ponted at.If you start high,there is a chance that the muzzle blast will work to lift the rifle up and roll over instead of directly back at you.

This is a joke right

I hope so.

If not, we will just blame it on him being from Montreal

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Big bore recoil can be compared to taking a punch to the upper arm area.The more punches you take,the bigger the bruise and the weaker the arm becomes.Eventually the arm muscle becomes almost useless and the punches hit very hard and directly directly on the bone.This is when you need to stop shooting and let the muscles heal and grow back again.If you are twice as strong,it only means that you might last twice as long.This has been my experience so far with my big bores.The one thing that I found that reduces recoil is the angle the rifle is ponted at. If you start high,there is a chance that the muzzle blast will work to lift the rifle up and roll over instead of directly back at you. If you start high,there is a chance that the muzzle blast will work to lift the rifle up and roll over instead of directly back at you.

The problem with that is I have never shot a flying Buffalo

You need a bigger gun, even a buffalo can fly when hit with a 5" projectile.

One could make a book with shootaways posts, we could call it the idiot's guide to big bore shooting. Things like butt pad surface area, contact patch, recoil impulse, and rifle weight mean nothing to the jedi, the best way to reduce recoil is to aim for the sky......

John

quote:

The one thing that I found that reduces recoil is the angle the rifle is ponted at.If you start high,there is a chance that the muzzle blast will work to lift the rifle up and roll over instead of directly back at you.

shootaway, if you are taking a downhill shot at game do you feel the recoil is increased?

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Big bore recoil can be compared to taking a punch to the upper arm area.The more punches you take,the bigger the bruise and the weaker the arm becomes.Eventually the arm muscle becomes almost useless and the punches hit very hard and directly directly on the bone.This is when you need to stop shooting and let the muscles heal and grow back again.If you are twice as strong,it only means that you might last twice as long.This has been my experience so far with my big bores.The one thing that I found that reduces recoil is the angle the rifle is ponted at.If you start high,there is a chance that the muzzle blast will work to lift the rifle up and roll over instead of directly back at you.

so you should only shoot at targets that are above you?? i thought that was called wingshooting.

Here is a quote from an article by John Barnsness I thought fit this topic well and raises a question to me. So the Muzzle break takes away a lot of the "Rocket Effect" to just leave the recoil of the bullet leaving the barrel and the powder weight charge acceleration right?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Never heard of rocket effect? Recoil is the result of one of Newton's basic laws: Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. This means that when stuff goes flying out the muzzle of any firearm, the firearm tends to head the opposite way. One part of the stuff is the bullet (or shot charge), but the other part is powder gas. In a cartridge like a .22 Long Rifle or a 12-gauge shotgun, almost all of the recoil is due to the projectile leaving the muzzle, but in a 7mm RUM a huge part of recoil is the large amount of hot gas leaving the muzzle at high pressure.

This means that in large-capacity, small-bore "magnum" cartridges, recoil becomes increasingly out of whack with the actual energy produced by the bullet. Want proof? As noted already, a 140-grain load from a 7mm RUM produces over 3500 foot-pounds of muzzle energy AND over 35 foot-pounds of recoil in an 8-pound rifle.

The little 7mm-08 Remington round produces around 2600 foot-pounds of muzzle energy with a warm but reasonable 140-grain handload, but only around 15 foot-pounds of recoil in an 8-pound rifle. This means the 7mm-08's muzzle energy is 72% of the 7mm RUM's, while the 7mm-08's recoil is only around 40% of the RUM's. The difference in percentages is purely due to hot gas, which does nothing for "killing power" at any range.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
H The difference in percentages is purely due to hot gas, which does nothing for "killing power" at any range.

This is true in so many ways....

John

have a 378wby mkv dlx, it is a fine rifle and not so bad to shoot, it is no way as bad as the dgr 460, whose lite synthetic stock is a bruiser. I have had to alter the way i hold this rifle when firing , as my finger gets slammed into the back of the trigger guard.....ouch.....more aware of it now and not a problem anymore, but its fun to watch my mates fire it, with full power 500gr loads.

Mathematically,recoil is most dependent on bullet weight and ejecta as well as rifle weight, however, Felt recoil is also quite dependent on the amount of gas generated by any given weight of powder and the peak pressures generated by that powder in a given volume and how long that peak pressure is sustained. Its not a simple linear equation, like most would like to believe.-Rob

RGB,

you have extensive experience with thumpers and brakes; would you care to expound on likely relationships/ratios between the %-age of gas redirected by a brake and felt or actual recoil reduction?

Thank you

Rich

IS- Generally symetrical muzzel brakes are most effective at reducing felt recoil with cartridges that have very high peak gas pressures and less so with low pressure cartridges. Its the redirection of those gases symetrically to 90 degrees from the muzzel at peak pressures that results in the reduced recoil effect. If you angle the holes backwards, the recoil reduction in increased but the blast is more unpleasant. The higher the pressure in the barrel the more gas will escape from the holes in the break per unit time. Some brakes can reduce felt recoil by 50% and I would expect thats directly proportional to the percentage of redirected gas. I recently shot 470shooters .300 jarrett and even in a light gun, the felt recoil was about like a .22LR. That brake was obviously very effecient. Asymmetric brakes at low pressures such as in a shotgun will work to reduce muzzel rise but do little to reduce felt recoil.
Remember in a big bore, the expansion volume is huge compared to a small bore, so peak pressures are much lower over a longer time period. Thats why the recoil feels more like a push rather than a sharp jab.-Rob

I shoot my .45-70 Marlin with the heaviest load suggested and thats quite comfortable. I can only imagine what those big weatherbys do.

Something I have found helpful for me when wanting to practice with the heavy recoil rifles:
1 Start off with a lighter rifle- for me that is a .270 or .06
2. Shoot a few rounds to get comfortable and move up to a larger caliber
3. Work up a few shots at a time until comfortable and relaxed. It improves the shooting form and makes those first few shots with the large caliber easier to absorb.

Having several rifle allows cooling between groups and is a little variety rather than sitting a simply shooting. Of course, I am no crack shot either
but jumping right in to my .510's or the Lott when cold is no fun at all.


Words of Caution.

Do Not mix ammo.

Check to be sure of which rifle you want to be shooting and check to confirm your loads.

Frank

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Big bore recoil can be compared to taking a punch to the upper arm area.The more punches you take,the bigger the bruise and the weaker the arm becomes.Eventually the arm muscle becomes almost useless and the punches hit very hard and directly directly on the bone.This is when you need to stop shooting and let the muscles heal and grow back again.If you are twice as strong,it only means that you might last twice as long.This has been my experience so far with my big bores.The one thing that I found that reduces recoil is the angle the rifle is ponted at.If you start high,there is a chance that the muzzle blast will work to lift the rifle up and roll over instead of directly back at you.

wow, just when you think it couldn't get no dumber

this is what happens when you shoot a 458 lott with a 1" eye relief scope, from the bench

Shootaway,

quote:

The one thing that I found that reduces recoil is the angle the rifle is ponted at.If you start high,there is a chance that the muzzle blast will work to lift the rifle up and roll over instead of directly back at you.

Or you can simply put a stock on your rifle with a great deal of drop, like a Weatherby MkV Deluxe. They are the PERFECT big bore hard kicker stocks!!!