Laminated Stocks....

Looking to have a laminated blank built for 700 H on PH action…

Probably going to use Bastogne or other hard walnut in laminates…open to other suggestions…

Talking to a couple of prospective builders and the issue of carbon fiber between the laminates has come up…

Looking for opinions from other big bore guys with experience…carbon fiber yeah or nay…?

Aesthetics are important but not as important as strength….for me anyhow…

Any advice would be appreciated…

I may be in the minority but I don't believe a laminate is going to be as strong as a properly grained and laid out solid stock. The fibers are cut short during laminating and the resin does not penetrate deeply enough to stabilize the short fibers. The stress under recoil is not a bending force. It's trying to pull the laminations apart via an "accordian" action.

I'm not suggesting you shouldn't have a laminate on a big bore; my 550 Magnum has one of Brockman's and it works but it is bedded for recoil. I just mean you won't necessarily have something better for recoil.

You may gain some added stability in changing humidity conditions over the average factory stock but a solid wood stock properly sealed will work as well.

Can't comment on the carbon fiber question as I've only seen it on bench guns, not big bores.

I am with Tigger -- a better wood blank will handle recoil better.. i've had lams crack on 300 winmags

I might add that the big thick laminates might be less prone than their cousins to splitting IF the bonding is done right. Mostly, it was a cheap way to get a prettier stock and more money from a really one-sided blank.

Would bamboo laminate be better than normal laminated?

No idea, Boomie. I have some of that import bamboo flooring in one room and its pretty soft wood for a floor. I saw that Accuracy Innovations sells bamboo stocks but (a) it ain't too pretty and (b) they use a full action chassis and they don't have to worry about wood strength as much.

Another question. Glue joints done right are stronger than the wood itself so would a gun stock blank that was cut lengthwise and the outsides made the center with a strong glue joint where the most recoil is be better than just a normal stock?

Its a matter of the length of the unbonded wood fibers. More load can be distributed through longer fibers, less load through short ones. So it depends again on the grain of the blank and how it saws up.

The glue joint is only about a few thousandths deep. It's the wood around it that lets go. Does that make sense?

Thanks for the replies fellas...

BBLD action is at smiths and it'll be a few months till he starts...hadn't put much thought into the stock until now...smith has some good ideas…one of which is to do drop belly mag box to add depth the sides of the stock…but with the PH action being so new (not a lot of otc options) and combine with the recoil of this cartridge I'm trying to get all the input I can...

Lams came up as a mater of adding weight to the gun…a premium for me…bbld action weighs 12 pounds…and will have recoil lug on bbl…hoping total rifle to be close to 18 pounds or so…

A lot of blank or stock manufactures turned me down on this project…

The only guys I've found that do custom laminated blanks are small businesses (individuals) and not that these guys don't do good work but I'm not sure they have the equipment or if they even need to have the equipment to make a blank strong enough…(my own ignorance)...

Did search function and saw some people don’t like lams on big kickers but wasn’t sure what make they were using…

Tiger…Thought the same thing about thicker lams…talked to one guy about using higher quality hardwoods and the carbon fiber and making an oversize blank to have a beefier stock…not sure how this would compare to a standard Boyd birch wood blank…

Nothing is out of the question yet…

Jeffe…Tiger…If I were to go with a better wood blank what should I be looking at and does it make sense to find a thicker than average blank in order to have a thicker stock…again I’m communicating with my smith but am also trying to get all the input I can…

Just really want to do this right…going to be a hell of a rifle when done…

Have you considered adding extended action tangs to add strength to the wrist, spread the recoil and add beauty? Maybe use a harder denser heavier exotic wood like rosewood for the whole stock?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Have you considered adding extended action tangs to add strength to the wrist, spread the recoil and add beauty? Maybe use a harder denser heavier exotic wood like rosewood for the whole stock?

Hadn't come thought of the extended action tang...will bring that up...

Would rosewood be harder and denser than the various walnuts???

How hard are rosewood blanks to come by???

Rosewood is quite heavy and dense. Not sure of quite where but exotic lumber places might have some. Cocobolo is about the same but easier to obtain although it is toxic so a respirator is needed for sanding it. I have liked those woods a lot for strength and beauty but the weight is too heavy for most rifles.

Boomie...

The pic just loaded...my comp is slow...that's pretty slick on the extd tang and would look cool to boot...

Anyone got sugestions on where to look for blanks???

I do like the color of rosewood...

Matt,

Avoid the laminate for this rifle. I have seen way too many laminates split at the tang along a glue joint. A properly laid out piece of English Walnut will give you much better service. Have your stockmaker leave some room at the rear tang between metal and wood for "things to move" under recoil. Don't bed it hard and tight at the rear.

I hope this helps,

FYI I called Cook Woods and they could order custom some Brazillian Rosewood for a stock blank but it would cost between $450 to $750 depending on piece. Cocobolo would be cheaper and maybe easier to obtain.

Be careful with the exotics. They can be hard as hell, yes, but also brittle. You will also be severely restricting the pool of stock makers to choose from. Most won't work with those woods for a full stock.

I think after english, bastogne would be my second choice. Generally cheaper and easier to find a really heavy piece without a lot of searching. You can always add lead in strategic places. Drill the wrist and install a nice heavy thru-pin.

The PH takes a nice thick blank. It's hard to drop that box because the trigger bow drops too, making for an awkward grip. It would be cheaper (but not inexpensive) to have a pocketed floorplate made instead.

He doesn't sell any laminate but if I could suggest, contact Mr. Roger Vardy in Australia.

http://rogervardystockwood.com/

There are many good stockwood dealers out there but Mr. Vardy is exceptional.

Wayne,

Thanks for the advice...I want to do this right and I know you know your big guns...

Boom... Thanks for the call... I've got some decision making to do...

Tiger...smith brought up English initially and was worried about my wanting the rifle so heavy... May have to make a trade off ..

I would want to inspect before purchase but rosewood is tough stuff.

Boomy, what kind of front sights are on those barrels?

That's not my gun so not sure.

My 600OK is sitting in a laminated stock. It is dual crossbolted and has wrist pins. So far so good.

Andy

A regular two tone brown laminated stock cracked in the wrist
on me. I had to put two extra bolts through wrist.
But a gray black laminate I took from the Vulcan/hesse
BMG action, I got from you, that I put my 700 long in,
and put my 4bore falling block in, has held recoil ok..
And to get that falling block into it, the sides are thinner
than when used on the Vulcan.

That gray black laminate seems to have different better glue
and it seemed harder when I was machining and sanding it.Ed

I have two english blanks one with a small bit of figure that are MARKEDLY heavier than any other blanks I have. One is an eastern US english with fiddle it's full length that the man who sawed the tree said he thought was on the order of 200 years old and lived a pretty tough life where it was. At any rate these blanks are not overly large but are significantly heavier. So the denser than normal ones are out there. I kept these for big bore projects and will likely build my Montana PH 505 Gibbs on one of them and likely the 338 Lapua on the other. I found it interesting that the Australian dealer lists weights in low med high. First time I've encountered a blank person id'ing implied density. If I get a chance I'll measure and weigh these blanks and see what kind of wt/sq.in. values I get.

quote:

But a gray black laminate I took from the Vulcan/hesse
BMG action, I got from you, that I put my 700 long in,
and put my 4bore falling block in, has held recoil ok..

Ed,

I've been thinking on that stock from the Vulcan quite a bit...I wonder where Hesse got those from...Had to have a larger than normal blank to start...that stock is huge!!!

I've spoke with the people at Rutland and anything bigger than a 3" blank is a custom run and the gentleman I spoke with had never heard of a lam on a 50...

quote:

Originally posted by hairbol:
I found it interesting that the Australian dealer lists weights in low med high. First time I've encountered a blank person id'ing implied density. If I get a chance I'll measure and weigh these blanks and see what kind of wt/sq.in. values I get.

hairbol,

English Walnut seems to be the consensus on a straight up wood stock...I also noticed he catagorized his blanks light, med, heavy and thought density also...I'm probably going to call him as well as Cook Woods...

AUS$ to US$ conversion .95:1.05???

sight looks like racknagel/NECG

in my order of prefence
Aussie Walnut (not aussie english, the NOT "walnut" that looks just like walnut)
real turkish quartersawn
english - not cali
bastogne
ipe

What about bubinga. Colt/Sauer used them on their 458.

Rich

I don't know if Rutland makes the big laminated
gray black blanks . They made the two tone
brown blank that I have. had a guy with
machine shape it and we put pin in wrist but
it cracked so I added two bolts.
I've seen other Vulcans with gray black and they
never seem to crack or break.I can't find where
those blanks are made.The Vulcan folks I guess had
inherited a stockpile of these all shaped/inleted
for the action and they want an arm and leg for
them. But I can use them on my falling block as the
inletting cleans up the original, but the inletting
for the PH wouldn't. I keep trying to find some
cheaper, maybe from guys that replaced them with
metal tactical stocks. Ed

Just a thought here...

First I don't think I'd concentrate on the wood to start with. I would instead study where and how the barreled action was going to transfer the recoil TO the wood.

Among ideas I'd consider would be to have TWO recoil lugs sweated to the barrel, at last 6 inches apart, beginning 6"-to-8" in front of the action ring, so the forend could take more of the recoil load. Second, I'd also consider having a recoil lug added to the rear half of the action. I would also put a steel rod through the wrist of the stock lengthwise (in a solid casing of Acraglas) with a little "T" flat on its front end so the rear action lug could bear against that too in recoil, and transfer that force down through the whole pistol grip into the buttstock.

Then I would use a solid one-piece wood stock, of the densest, straightest, least fancy grain I could find which flowed properly through the PG and action body areas.

Setting all that up will take some time and effort...mostly time. Time is especially well spent in looking at and rejecting stock blanks which are "almost" good enough. If you look hard enough and long enough you will find exactly the close-grained blank you want. Just steer clear of the mendacious suppliers who want to sell you quickly on "pretty" instead of dense and straight walnut. If you want a closet queen prima donna, any pretty piece of walnut will do...just don't buy for pretty and then try to shoot it.

You might want to look at the African Obeche laminate at www.scopeusout.com
They also carry Rutland laminate.

James

Can you still get Ironwood?
The only time I ever used it was to make a puzzle box and I had to use a milling machine to cut it.
Hardest wood I know of.

Cheers, John