quote:

A forum should be about knowing and speculating and more besides.
You just speculated on the 495 yourself, since you don't know for sure.

You need anymore help understanding your own posts feel free to let me know Wink

Seriousy I really hope the guy builds a 495 and puts some pics up.

The reason as you say no one has done it here is precisely the only reason needed.Might give us a break from continuous pet calibre marketing and breathe some life into a slowing down forum.

Agreed,

I propose we could use a little more collective intellectual integrity. Ie. If; the 495 has potential feeding issues then the 600ok is much worse and if the 500 AR is good then the Trex is good.

BTW, it looks like the 495A2 can deliver 2200 fps with 600 grain bullets with the least powder and least recoil in class. Here are some links:

http://www.handloadersbench.com/forum51/5871.html

http://www.loaddata.com/member...r%20Reloading%20Data

http://www.470mbogo.com/BigBoreCompendium/

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
Ie. If; the 495 has potential feeding issues then the 600ok is much worse and if the 500 AR is good then the Trex is good.

They are all very good, just a matter of a qualified gunsmith...

and again, the truth is, its different...
the 495 is meant to stagger feed ... the 600 is meant to be a single stack ONLY .. if you single stacked the 495, lots of problems are obviated ... just like the ORIGINAL 500 jeffes.

the trex? lots of love for the cartridge here .. several guys actualy have them.. MANY have shot them .. the fugly guns they tend to come in, however, aren't well respected, due to EXPERIENCE ..

the 500 doesn't compare to the trex, in any way shape or form ... you CAN'T put a trex in a model 70 .. however, you CAN put a 585 nyati.. 500 grains had/has one ... though then you run into design flaws, including a HUGE rebate, 3 different case head specifications, and the FACT.. and its a fact, that a spec reamer, to "offical" drawings, cuts a chamber that cases neck/shoulder interference .. and Rog has correct that design FLAW, and published it .. oh, and has one...

again, experience trumps hype, every time...

you know that old saw, "old age and experience trumps youth and enthusiasm" ?? its VERY relevent.

the 425 WR, hugely rebated, and high (enough) performance is ignored due to design vs the 404 ...

the 505 gibbs is a JOKE, in terms of original rifles built ... what, 11? come on.. there where 4X that of the jefferies built, and likely 20x that of the schulers.

of course, this is typical form "going off topic" that happens when we don't have hall monitors.

quote:

the 495 is meant to stagger feed ... the 600 is meant to be a single stack ONLY .. if you single stacked the 495, lots of problems are obviated ... just like the ORIGINAL 500 jeffes.

Good! Now, we admit the 600Ok requires a single stack magazine. Because some competing designs like 577BME, 585HE and Trex do not require a single stack. Then, we both like the Trex, good again.

quote:

the 505 gibbs is a JOKE, in terms of original rifles built ... what, 11? come on.. there where 4X that of the jefferies built, and likely 20x that of the schulers.

Where do these numbers come from? 505's were advertized for years by griffin and howe and others were made in the hundreds. Perhaps 70 by Gibbs. Thats three times as many Gibbs by Gibbs as 500J by Jeffrey (23). Low volumes, but not a joke. The 505 can feed staggered for 75% or more firepower. Again no joke. No rebate, no short neck, low pressure. Does any of this really matter?

quote:

of course, this is typical form "going off topic" that happens when we don't have hall monitors.

Pot calling kettle black!

I find the 495a-square to be among the few cartridges that have interested me.It has more power than the lott and necked up to 495.It is a heavy duty lott,IMO.This would make a perfect ele cartridge,IMO.

Yes, Well maybe we can learn more about it. Just right sized, or that is the claim. For hunting not bragging.

On an action like magnun cz 550 the full lenght 500A2 seems better fit. The 500 being the same length as the Lott. This would be ideal for the more common std length actions, same as the 458WinMag or those AR's we hear so much about.

The name is 495, but the actual bullets are .510 which is the more common of the DG 50's. After a google too learn more, I found both brass and loaded ammo available.

For states like NY or where ever(?), the head stamp on the brass is 495 and the barrel says 495. I see that point.

Probably not my cup of tea, because I prefer the classics when practical. And there are enough classic 50's to choose from. You dont like the CZ550 which can be had in 505Gibbs, the 495 should fit the standard Ruger.

This concept is the same idea as 577BME and 585HE. I liked the sound of those two reading here on on AR. There is also the 550 mag on the Wby brass. The Trex looks (to me) like a better balanced design. But, the Trex wont fit in the CZ550 mag. This thread is not about the over 50 class, but unbiased lessons learned here should apply there.

Bottom line, this is an interesting proposal, a 495A2 on M70, and I hope to hear how it turns out.

quote:

Yes, Well maybe we can learn more about it. Just right sized, or that is the claim. For hunting not bragging.

On an action like magnun cz 550 the full lenght 500A2 seems better fit. The 500 being the same length as the Lott. This would be ideal for the more common std length actions, same as the 458WinMag or those AR's we hear so much about.

The name is 495, but the actual bullets are .510 which is the more common of the DG 50's. After a google too learn more, I found both brass and loaded ammo available.

For states like NY or where ever(?), the head stamp on the brass is 495 and the barrel says 495. I see that point.

Probably not my cup of tea, because I prefer the classics when practical. And there are enough classic 50's to choose from. You dont like the CZ550 which can be had in 505Gibbs, the 495 should fit the standard Ruger.

This concept is the same idea as 577BME and 585HE. I liked the sound of those two reading here on on AR. There is also the 550 mag on the Wby brass. The Trex looks (to me) like a better balanced design. But, the Trex wont fit in the CZ550 mag. This thread is not about the over 50 class, but unbiased lessons learned here should apply there.

Bottom line, this is an interesting proposal, a 495A2 on M70, and I hope to hear how it turns out.

First off the 495 will fit the m70 good idea I dunno ive never built one that way but if you find a good smith try it out.2.Brass is around but usually goes 15-20 dollars more per 20 then the 500 a-2.3 the 577 trex will fit onto a cz action AHR has proved that and lastly the 495 offers nothing that a 500 a-2 doesnt the 495 runs out of gas where as the 500 is full throtle.

Thank you express, I did not know the Trex would fit the CZ550. Now, I have something to think about myself. So many guns and so little money ....

I guess a key consideration on the 495 was the under 50 head stamp and barrel.

The reason the 495 really has no spotlight is due to the fact its easy now to get magnum actions..Also the 577 is a straight stack not staggered..

Single stack be staggered. If you are going to single stack might as well go larger or smaller and more down. With the CZ550 the 500 A2 makes the most sense. On a RUM M70 conversion you could do a belted RUM case or 500 MDM staggered.

QUOTE]...the 577 trex will fit onto a cz action AHR has proved that and lastly the 495 offers nothing that a 500 a-2 doesnt the 495 runs out of gas where as the 500 is full throtle.[/QUOTE]

I am not sure this is correct. I think the T-Rex needs a Granite Mountain action because the CZ's .700 bolt face being maxed out at ~.640 with the .505 Gibbs / .600 OK. The T-Rex's base is larger then thatr. P-14 Enfield bolts have that massive left lug allowing the case to be supported.

Also, I have loaded and shot +.50 caliber and found anthing above 2300fps to be rather brutal. The .500A2 can outrun the .495A2 but to what advantage I don't know.

In my opinion the .505 Gibbs vs. .500 Jeffery decision comes down to personal choice. The .500A2 vs. .495A2 (if you can find .495 brass and a reamer) comes down to what action you want to use.

TRex rim is .690" right?
CZ550 bolt is about .7" right?
GMA bolt is about .75" right?

Thats a 0.005 bolt rim on a cz550. That shim stock! When that flakes off you have a slight problem! Gun won't feed/ control the case! You need at least 0.015-0.020 at an absolute minimum,0.030 is not optimum but generally acceptable. You either rebate the rim or get a bigger bolt diameter.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:
...the 577 trex will fit onto a cz action AHR has proved that

I am quite certain that you have misunderstood something - AHR uses GMA actions for the 577 TRex. Rimdia of 577 TRex is .688" and almost no bolt rim left if you use a .700" CZ bolt.

I have lots of first hand experience with the 577 Trex. A wonderfull round/caliber. 2550-2600fps / 750 grs bullets and 2450-2500 fps with 800 grainers definately possible.
But IF I knew several years ago what I know now... - I would have choosen the 600 OK...
Maybe even Robs less known 600 OK2

Ulrik

quote:

You either rebate the rim or get a bigger bolt diameter.-Rob

OK, so Trex is a good design but does not fit the CZ. I am back to my original premise - a 577 belted round like BME or HE will work in a CZ550, with NO rebate. And those are the max 'sensible' round for the CZ. IMHO. These are slightly smaller diameter than 600 and just enough to fit right and also allow stagger feed for significant increase in fire power. Just as good or bad feeding as a WinMag or Lott or 495A2 or 500A2. Either they are all good or all screwed.

And....

Not a darn thing wrong with putting a 495A2 on an M70 action any more than a Lott or 500A2 on a CZ magnum.

Does anyone know if the .495A2 would fit in CZ's .30-06 length action? Or would this create more problems then money it would save over the magnum length action?

no it wont fit a standard action length . Without alot of work , and then maybe not . The brass is 2.8" long . .

.
And what is wrong with A Square rifles ?

Original question about 495A2:

quote:

I know it can fit in a standard length model 70 action, but how much smithing is required to get it to feed well? If you were wondering I am interested in this caliber because the .495 name gets you around the over 50 crap, no shoulder to stick, seems like a reasonable level of power and recoil, and it's something that not everybody has.

In answer to working in a standard (non magnum) CZ:

quote:

no it wont fit a standard action length . Without alot of work , and then maybe not . The brass is 2.8" long . .

Now, I am confused the original question quoted first above, seem to contradict the facts stated in 2nd quote. What exactly was the idea behind the 495 if not to fit in std actions? The brass is same length as the Lott.

I guess the Winchester M70 is a special situation where it can handle 375H&H and Lott and therefor 495A2?

Curious.

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
no it wont fit a standard action length . Without alot of work , and then maybe not . The brass is 2.8" long . .
.
And what is wrong with A Square rifles ?

a standard action is 3.35 or there abouts, long, as that's .01 longer than a 30-06 .. which all the "short" magnums, before the WSMs where.. 7remmag, 458 winmag, 338, and 300 win .. 270win, too .. all 3.34

500 Accrel 3.34 oal - same capacity as the .485 a2

.495 3.6 is the same length as a 458 lott. which means long action and or hogging out an action to get it that long. 3.6 ..

500 a2 is 3.85, same length as a 416 rigby and 505 gibbs .. which REQUiRE excetionally long actions

500 jeffery is 3.5 .. doable, but requires cutting on a standard length action

and now we are back to suitable build on a model 70 .. (or ruger 77mkII) ..

if the brass is 2.8, and we add the .8 that is the nominal nose to crimp length, we hit 3.6 .. tada .. just like a lott ..

and just like a lott, requires LOTS of gunsmithing to fit into a 3.35 action ..

500AccRel requires boltface, bit of rail and ramp tweaking, and a barrel .. action is in no way compromising, as MOST barrel plumbers cut from the front of the action .. most, as in more than 50%, including zstava/interarms


what's wrong with a2 rifles? i don't care for the single stack mag on their 577trex rifles, welded to the action, and called a fort knox mag.. and to me, ugly stocks.


again, the easist way to get a .510 chucker in a standard action is, by years of studied design, the 500AccRel .. local favorite or not, its designed for that purpose....

no rebate, no single stack, no belt, no chopping up the action, no gunsmithing tricks. nothing ...

read that again .. the 500AccRel is 3.34 oal .. by design, to fit by rail work only, into standard actions .. and has the same usable capacity as a 495 ... with none of its perceived problems ...

perfect? nah.. the 470 mbogo is perfect...


but i'd love the next post to be from someone that actually owns a 495 and wants to talk about it ...

sorry Jeffe . me again . I don,t know alot about moeel 70 , but they were all long . 375 h+ h length actions . That is how the 495 fit in the model 70.

Gumboot
Where all 375 actions. This changed in 1964, and lasted though the Yankee production. Thought the model70 375 guns where chopped up a bit, even in the pre days. The 22 hornet and 375 hh where madeon the same action

Today, if you bought a 3006 new production, and wanted it to be a 375, you would need to open the bolt face, the mag work ain't hard, machine the top and ejector port to eject a loaded round, and recur the rear scope mount holes. Kind of a standard practice, but lots to go through. the truths, all long action action wells are longer than STD, allowing them to be opened other ways

The 308 length is different, as well as the wssm. I am not certain if the wsm is different than 308, though I think so

So, your statement, revised, is "jeffe, all standard length model 70 actions can be modified to take a 375, so it it really that tough"? Not for a good smith, who's done this before, but no, long model 70s aren't out of the box ready to be 375 length. And certainly not ALL model 70actions

I heard that Winchester made 2 416 rigbies in their custom shop, bc it was too hard to make feed for cost offered.

It was a listed caliber there, btw.

Jeffe- just pure BS you know none of these guys actually owns a .495 a2. just love the idea that it will fit in a M98. Yup, wanna see some M98 actions with the action bolt lugs set back .050. I'm sure the experts know how to heat treat a M98 so that won't happen. Those with half a brain will run from the .495 a2 like the plague. Perfect caliber for shootaway though. He wil really need a Kevlar shooting helmet though!-Rob

The model 70s I had and looked at were pre 64 .with the exception of 1 that was a post . I did have a crf ss model 70 in 338 that was a 375 length action . the mag was blocked off at the rear of the box for the shorter round ... . I hope its understood that I consider the 500AR to be superior to the 495 . At least for my purposes .
.
.It seems this thread has gotten confused . maybe its just me . .I do think the original 495 was built on a pre 64 action. so the action started out almost long enough ...
.I found my 500 A Sq. to be tough accurate and totally reliable . and the coil check stock handled recoil as well or better than any stock I,ve ever fired . I have no idea about the T Rex as I have no desire to shoot or own one .. so hopefully Nuff said ..

k.. allow me to restate...

there is less gunsmithing required to turn a long action m 70 into a 3.65" action .. but still requires cutting, after removing the mag box spacer.

however. the m70 is the only action that this is true for, as the 90% of 30-06 length actions require major cutting

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
... Those with half a brain will run from the .495 a2 like the plague. Perfect caliber for shootaway though. He wil really need a Kevlar shooting helmet though!-Rob

my point being, i tend to designed 3.35 or less rounds.. the 550 flanged and original concept of the 577BME being the exceptions..

there's no reason to gut an action to get that performance ..

can you get MORE performance if you do?

maybe

lots of guys taking ruger 77mkII and turning them into 500 AccRels .. and getting the same ballasic results that I do, without pushing pressures .. same for the other 3 AccRels -- named after THIS SITE, which kind of explains the "local favorite" concept...

after having 500 jeffe and 500x460, and building the rifles, and figuring out what *I* didn't like about them, well, here you go.. my best concept for a 3.35 oal .510 chunker ...

inexpensive brass
inexpensive dies
inexpensive gunsmithing bill

and have headstammped brass available.. from MIDWAY via qualcart.

and hundreds of load data points for the collection on ammoguide ...

where the 495 a2 isn't even listed.

Jeffeosso, let's not forget the 550 Express. Its everything the 495 tried to be and couldn't. I think if I were building a larger-than-.510 big bore on a standard action that would be the way to go.

Harry,
the express is just a monster .. we designed it to be a "577" in a bolt gun, without exotic brass.. and without exotic guns/gunsmithing.

a friend of mine, after a couple safaris, became a PH in tanz .. and had trouble with hippos from the boats .. his 577 NE could NOT be handled in the boat, and his 416 rigby wasn't "sure enough"

also, PH's aren't "rich", therefore, high end work had to be excluded ..

we started by wanting a high SD, high ME, about 2150 fps, for the surity (is that a word) offered for bullet construction..

then wanted it to fit in available, in expensive actions.. without huge costs.. in short, i wanted it to fit in a vz24, model 70, ruger, or comparable CHEAP action...

if you wanted a 3 shot monster, you can open the bolt face and rails of a vz24, install a barrel, and do some feeding work, and have a single stack MONSTER .. with standard gunsmithing skills and stock reinforcement.

at 11lbs, the 550 express is SHOOTABLE when firing down and standarding on the end of a railroad tie .. i've done it...

with intregal rear sightbase and recoil lug, and a tie down screw, you have a TOUGH rifle, using the mauser safety, ... and at least *I* can hit a tennis ball at 50-75 yards most of the time.

it is a MONSTER to shoot ... and it will likely be the biggest rifle at any range .. and will get tons of attention...

and ATF'ed as a sporting round, NOT a DD

Heated debate, yes - but we are sharing good ideas and learning too.

Ok, the 495 seems reasonable for a 375H&H set up action. And it has the name "495" FWIW.

I got off on a tangent with over 50, because of what sounded like a blanket condemnation of the Wby belt and rebate. Since we pretty much gone way OT already - I like to take the liberty to restate that can of worms.

Over 50, is where things really get interesting. There are no industry standards offered. Excepting maybe the really fat but well designed Trex. Nothing like today, the 50 Gibbs or Jeff with guns and ammo available. For these >50 monsters the straight case and belt offers advantages with the magnum actions (CZ 550) which are readily available today can be used to good advantage.

The 550mag,585HE, 577BME are my favorites. The 577/585 using same bullets as 577NE. A 3" version of the 585HE (cut back from 3.25) would be tops- with a tad more taper and a smidgen of rebate. That compromise on the 585HE is right along line with similar compromise using Wby case for the 550MAG and 500A2. What I dont like is going up xtra few 1000's bore size with a large rebate, just to get to a 600. Thats my opinion -no more or less. I dont like single stack 2 shot, when the alternative 505Gibbs/550mag/577BME can squeeze 4 down in a CZ550.

So; we also agree nothing majorly wrong with 550,BME,HE even if they have belts and maybe some have smidgen of Weatherby like rebate? And nothing wrong with a 600oK being honest about the rebate and limitations.

This is a sore point for me, cause I raised this subject regarding the 600 rebate and got put on ignore. This week, rebates and belts are hot topic as found on an 495A2, and a very minor rebate! And if its good for the 550Mag, then its good for the 577flavors and A2's.