I was lucky enough to take a plant tour at the Hornady bullet plant in Grand Island Nebraska. While lokking at their indoor shooting and testing facility, I noticed a box of empty 416 Ruger brass! Our tour guide was busy answering all sorts of questions, so all I got out of him was that it would be out soon.

Shawn Massey
www.masseysfineguns.com

Shawn,
Did you just violate an NDA with Hornady?

No, he didn't even act like it was a big deal! I thought I was behind old news or something!

AWESOME!

This isn't surprising at all.....It's going to be a fine round.

I still wish that they had done a 404 version instead.

404 is on the way a well.

Is it much work to form this cases to the 416 Newton??

Nah...just cut some off the length of the .416
Ruger, size down in a .416 Newton die & you will
have a .416 Newton. This is made very easy since
obviously Hornady/Ruger used a Newton case body size...same dimensions...but longer case & shoulder
further forward in the .375 Ruger. Dave Scoville had it right...its just a Newton case...no other case is alike a Newton..except the .375 Ruger...so
what does that tell you? That its a Hornady/Ruger
new invention? Give me a break! At least they copied a fine design...but the .416 Newton like the .416 Taylor is a very efficient case...and the .416 Ruger won't need the extra case capacity...thus less efficient.
Aloha, Y'All
Tom from Cody

no more than you can make a 458 lott case from a 458 winmag can you make a ruger from a newton.

whitebison, I have told you this before.

dang, I am tired of hearing the newton (WRONG) information.

.532 rim and casehead .. no belt.. UNIQUE case...

really, it's that easy.. yes, you could make newton brass if you turn off a couple thou here and there... but you can't make ruger from newton... which means

IT AINT A NEWTON

The Newton case head and rim are smaller in diameter than the Hornady-Ruger case head and rim.

Newton:
.523" base, .525" rim

Ruger-Hornady:
.532" base, .532" rim

Give it up White Bison. Dave Scoville is still eating crow. Ask him to pass the mustard your way.

The .375 Ruger was a new and unique factory standard case.
So is the .416 Ruger now.

Well, looks like another .411 in the making for my collection.

this will fit in perfect with my evil model 30 switch bbl project cant wait.

quote:

Originally posted by eurocentric:
404 is on the way a well.

I hope you are right because if so, I'm not going to buy a new rifle until this one comes out!

quote:

Originally posted by Moose-Hunter:

quote:

Originally posted by eurocentric:
404 is on the way a well.

I hope you are right because if so, I'm not going to buy a new rifle until this one comes out!

Thats why I sold both of my 375 Rugers. I have three other 375s, but presently no 416, and the 416 Ruger makes all the sense in the world, IMO. I'm ready with CIF and want one NOW!

jeffeosso and RIP,

You guys are way too uptight on this issue - you need to chill a bit - kick the feet up and have a soda.

Please fully read my post before you explode…or not.

You guys are comparing SAAMI maximum case specifications for the Ruger cases vis-à-vis Western’ production case dimensions for the Newton; this is not a correct apples to apples comparison.

First let’s talk chamber dimensions as that is something devoid of different manufacturer’s tolerances - then we’ll talk case dimensions.

On May 2, 2008 Dave Kiff of PT&G verified the chamber dimensions for a 40 Newton finish chamber reamer as having a rim diameter of 0.5333†with a main body diameter at 0.200†from the head of 0.5304†and a body TPI of 0.146â€; these dimensions are based upon original Chas Newton’ chamber specifications.

Also, PT&G verified that the SAAMI specification for a 375 Ruger finish chamber reamer as having a rim diameter of 0.5347†with a main body diameter at 0.200†from the head of 0.533†and a body TPI of 0.086â€.

Now we’ll take cases. The 375 Ruger cases are not manufactured as you both assert with a 0.532†rim and base!

Mitch Mittelstaedt of Hornady Mfg. Co. kindly provide me the SAAMI specifications for the 375 Ruger cartridge case, which you both quote, as well as the SAAMI allowable case manufacturing variances, which neither of you quote. The SAAMI manufacturing variances for the 375 Ruger at the rim are 0.526â€-0.530†while the body diameter at 0.200†is about 0.529†on an unfired case. I’ve personally measured 150 individual 375 Ruger formed and basic cases and the manufacturing variance at the rim was 0.527â€-0.529†while the body diameter variance at 0.200†was 0.527â€-0.529â€.

Additionally, the Western case dimensions for the Newton are typically the smallest in the two specified dimensions of all pre–1950 manufactured Newton brass; UMC or Speer brass are much better examples of correct 30 Newton’ derivative brass as they are at least 0.527†at the rim with a body diameter of at least 0.525â€.

As noted from these chamber and case dimensions the Hornady’ 375 Ruger brass is the perfect brass for 30 Newton’ derivative cases. Far better than using the 6.5x68mm or 8x68mm brass with CIP’ dimensions of a maximum rim diameter of 0.510†and a maximum main body diameter at 0.200†from the head of 0.522†to manufacture 30 Newton’ derivative brass – yet this was the recommended practice for decades.

Now….using your 458 Lott and 458 WinMag comparison…you are in wrong. Correct dimensioned 30 Newton’ derivative cases can be safely utilized to produce 375 Ruger cases. And although this would result in a neck length of 0.2507†vis-à-vis 0.3107†in length for a production 375 Ruger case – this 0.0600†difference would still safely work.

And regarding Dave Scoville’s articles, the SAAMI maximum case specifications had not been openly released when he wrote his articles hence he noted the “measured case dimensions†for the 375 Ruger rather than SAAMI case specification – it was his measured case dimensions which resulted in the assertation that the 375 Ruger case was basically a Newton case derivative. Unfortunately many internet “scribes†have pounced upon the 375 Ruger’s SAAMI maximum case specifications and not the SAAMI allowable manufactured case variance dimensions or Scoville’s actual case measurements to discredit Scoville’s writings.

By the way, my 40 Newton will be built as Chas Newton originally designed with 0.400"/0.408" bore/groove dimensions. I will be utilizing 375 Ruger basic brass for my cases. White Bisons' 416 Newton is probably a better choice due to availability of bullets, but hey, we Newton folks like to be different.

Guess this is enough…blast away if you must but please stop treating folks that have an interest in Newton’ cartridges as buffoons.

Cheers,
Jim

Jim,

you know what? you proved that you can't make spec ruger cases from spec newton cases better than i ever could. thanks

Here's a question for ya ... How can I be "wrong" with the assertion that one can't make 458 lott cases from 458 winmag ? I am unaware of any method of stretching cases .300 without altering their safety.


However, if we agree that you CAN make 458winmag cases from 458 lott, then we can also agree that you COULD make newton brass from ruger brass.
with it being a one-way conversion.

There's a constant here... if you must take tolerences into account, then you must on bith sides...

let's put it this way
R+t=x AND N+t=z
and
r=.532, n=.525, and t=range [-.002, -.003, -.004. -.005]
then QED N < R and z < x, in all tests

Close? Yep, but there is never an equation that N > R

cya

quote:

Originally posted by luv2safari:

quote:

Originally posted by Moose-Hunter:

quote:

Originally posted by eurocentric:
404 is on the way a well.

I hope you are right because if so, I'm not going to buy a new rifle until this one comes out!

Thats why I sold both of my 375 Rugers. I have three other 375s, but presently no 416, and the 416 Ruger makes all the sense in the world, IMO. I'm ready with CIF and want one NOW!

hopefully Ruger wont package it in the same weak stock as the .375 Ruger Hawkeye.

jefferoso,

I have a tendency to be somewhat blunt in my writings so don’t take that as caustic…I retired a few years ago after 35 years as an investigator and for the last 17 years supervising an office of investigators and analysts…so touchy-feely really isn’t there for me. I enjoy cogent conversations whether verbal or written…so let’s have a discussion.

Yes, I can agree that the longer “spec†cases cannot be from shorter cases so in that aspect I guess “I proved you correctâ€. So let me say this upfront – a 2.520†case OAL 30 Newton derivative cartridge case will never have the same “spec†case OAL as a 2.580†375 Ruger case unless basic brass which is typically longer in case OAL that formed brass is utilized – then it may not be so.

That said - your original analogy didn’t reference “spec†cases...just simply stated that you couldn’t make a 375 Ruger case from a 30 Newton derivative cartridge case...which one can safely do.

So I guess we’ll have to agree that we’ll disagree on that example and go on from there..

Now, with reference to your statement:

“There's a constant here... if you must take tolerences into account, then you must on bith sides...

let's put it this way
R+t=x AND N+t=z
and
r=.532, n=.525, and t=range [-.002, -.003, -.004. -.005]
then QED N < R and z < x, in all tests

Close? Yep, but there is never an equation that N > Râ€

Please phone Mitch Mittelstaedt of Hornady Manufacturing Company so that he can personally inform you that 375 Ruger cases are not manufactured with the SAAMI spec 0.532†rim and base. Perhaps you’ll pay attention to him that the 0.532†just “ant’ so†when referencing the actual manufactured cartridge cases dimensions vis-à-vis the design specifications drawing.

I provided 375 Ruger specification details from an email that Mitch sent me in January 2008 in response to my request for clarification of SAAMI case specifications vis-à-vis the SAAMI approved manufacturing tolerance specifications for the same case. I’ve verified Mitch’s stated manufacturing tolerances by measuring 50 formed 375 Ruger cases and 100 375 Ruger basic cases; all 150 cartridge cases manufactured by Hornady and were directly purchased from Hornady. The vast majority of these cases measure 0.528†at rim and a body diameter at 0.200†from the head of 0.528â€, with a few measuring at 0.527†at these two measurements, and another few measuring at 0.529†at these two measurements.

For 30 Newton derivate cartridge cases - I’ve measured three factory Speer Newton cases, one 30 Newton and two 35 Newton, and all three measure 0.527†at rim and a body diameter at 0.200†from the head of 0.525â€. I don’t have any UMC brand Newton cartridge cases to measure though I’ve read that Speer and UMC branded Newton cartridge cases were manufactured to the same dimensional specifications.

I don’t have any Western brand 30 Newton derivative cases to measure - but I have read that some batches of Western brand 30 Newton cartridge cases were manufactured with measurements of 0.523†at rim and a body diameter at 0.200†from the head of 0.521†while others were manufactured with measurements of 0.525†at rim and a body diameter at 0.200†from the head of 0.523â€.

As I noted in my earlier message that I have I do have a compilation of Chas Newton’s designed chamber dimensions copied from Chas. Newton Rifle Corporation and Buffalo Newton catalogues of 1919 and 1924 and did provide this information to PT&G for verification against my 40 Newton finish chambering reamer. I have also stated that Dave Kiff of PT&G verified the chamber dimensions for a 40 Newton finish chamber reamer as having a rim diameter of 0.5333†with a main body diameter at 0.200†from the head of 0.5304†utilizing Chas Newton’s designed chamber dimensions.

Based upon true 30 Newton derivative cartridge chamber dimensions I’d say that the Speer, and presumably the UMC, branded cartridge cases are manufactured much closer to Chas Newton’s design specifications for these cartridges than are the Western brand cartridge cases.

I’ll now throw a curve ball into the mix. I believe you’ve used CHD for your various AR chambering reamers and are housing those finish reamers at PAC-NOR. You’ve stated that you’ve done this to assure that anyone utilizing your designed AR cartridges would have a rifle barrel “correctly†chambered for the particular cartridge design…you obviously understand that a different barrel manufacturer utilizing a finish chambering reamer manufactured by a different reamer manufacturer could result in a rifle whose barrel is grossly outside the designed chamber specification for your AR cartridge.

Perhaps using this “track†I can pose the issue differently so that we can bring the discussion back to the original supposition…so for sake of discussion less talk 6.5x55mm Swedish and 280 Remington and 30-06 cartridge cases and the lovely manufacturing tolerances for these cartridges.

The CIP specification for a 6.5x55mm Swedish round is a rim and base diameter of 0.480†and European cartridge brands manufacture these cases typically at 0.476†for rim and base. However US cartridge brands, I’m presuming here, to save tooling costs utilize brass tooling to manufacture these cases with a 30-06’ SAAMI specification case specification of 0.473†at rim and base. I don’t have a 6.5x55mm chambered rifle so also don’t have European or US branded cartridge cases for this round to physically measure. I have however actually measured US brand manufactured 30-06 cases with rims and bases as small as 0.468†so if similar tooling is utilized to manufacturer 6.5x55mm brass it would be manufactured with a deviation of 0.012†from the CIP specification. Are these US brand manufactured cases safely fired in 6.5x55mm Swedish chambered rifles – answer is yes inclusive of rounds loaded to +60,000 PSI pressure. Have you ever heard comments about how “sloppy†these 6.5x55mm Swedish chambers are? Ever hear comments about how “inaccurate†our US brand 6.5x55mm cartridges are compared to say Norma or Lapua 6.5x55mm cartridges? Perhaps is has something to do with US brands cases being manufactured way undersize per chamber specification?

A 280 Remington cartridge case is a derivative case of the 30-06 case, in fact it’s pretty close in case OAL to the original 30-03 case that the 30-06 case is a derivative of so perhaps it is better said to be a derivative case of the 30-03 case. First - Can the 280 Remington case be utilized to form a 30-06 case? The answer is yes and it would be safe to fire in this case in a 30-06 chambered rifle. Second - Can a 30-06 case be utilized to form a 280 Remington case? The answer is yes and it would be safe to fire in this case in a 280 Remington chambered rifle. Now this is with a SAAMI case OAL difference of 0.044†with the 280 Remington being the longer case.

So…I guess now the “true question†should be at this point…Where do you derive your “factual†statement that 30 Newton’ derivative cartridge case were designed by Chas Newton for a 0.525†rim and 0.523†base? From where do you derive this “gospel� Is it derived from measuring a couple of Newton cartridge cases? Is it derived from writer or internet sages? Is it derived from a few US brass manufacturers who manufacture wildcat Newton brass to these specifications?

Hopefully you are not doing as many have done…that being…taking a US branded manufactured cases as the “absolutely gospel†specifications that cartridge case’s designer “designed†specifications for his cartridge cases. This is absolutely the incorrect manner to determine the true specification for a cartridge case.

Myself…I imagine that had Rocky Gibbs taken a 35 Newton cartridge case and “done his thing†to produce a 375 Gibbs cartridge case some 20 odd years ago that it would be very closely dimensioned to the current Hornady’ designed 375 Ruger cartridge case - though it would have at least a 40º shoulder rather than the 375 Ruger’ 30º shoulder. Makes you think doesn’t it.

Sorry if this is too disjointed – I just get that way sometimes when comparing apples to oranges.

Cheers,
Jim

I said it and I will say it again...

The 416 Ruger will be the best big bore factory cart since the 404 Jeffery.

Just a note on the Newton/Ruger debate...

Both are awesome

use the Ruger cases to make the 400 Newton

boom stick,

We agree on many things.
• the Newtons and Rugers are both great cartridges!
• the 375 Ruger cases are the perfect parent case to use in forming 30 Newton derivative cases. I’ll be using the basic case for forming my 40 Newtons.

The impending release of the 416 Ruger was my deciding factor in staying with the original 40 Newton .400â€/.408†bore/groove rather than moving to white bison’s 416 Newton – definite difference in the number of available bullets, .408 vis-à-vis the .416, but one can get by.

Now if a 458 Ruger is released in the near future that just may keep me from building a 45 Newton. Life is good!

Jim

Now how cool would it be to shoot those high BC 416 Barrett bullets out of a 416 Ruger long throat it and single load it for some 1000 yard stuff.

1000 yards ...interesting thought - though I'll be perfectly satisfied plinking between 100yards-300yards until the 40 is used on live animals.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I said it and I will say it again...

The 416 Ruger will be the best big bore factory cart since the 404 Jeffery.

Time will tell but I can tell you this.....It's an awesome round and runs thru a vz-24 like greased lightning!

Open the bolt face and some rail work and go kill some ele!

Does this mean the 416 JRS is DOA

quote:

I saw the 416 Ruger!

well I've been shooting one.....and let me tell ya something.....it's awesome and in an 8 pound rifle it gets your attention quickly!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

I saw the 416 Ruger!

well I've been shooting one.....and let me tell ya something.....it's awesome and in an 8 pound rifle it gets your attention quickly!

...
What length is your barrel ?? How fast with what bullets and loads ??????????????????????????????????????????????????

Please ..

This 416 sounds great. Now to decide. .366, .375, .395, or .416? Packy

I'm shooting my .395 Max (based on the .375 case) so probably will not get a .416 Ruger...but if they come out with a .404, definitely will have to have one!

So, my new wildcat is no longer a wildcat..I just finished the stock and its blued and ready to put together. It is on a Mauser action and I knew a year and a half ago that Ruger intended to produce the .416 Ruger, and so stated many times on AR. My gun is stamped .416 Ruger on the barrel, not JRS...

I did not know about the .404 and that really bums me as I am a .404 fan..I gotta have a .404 Ruger and it has been destined all along as my next project, so the .416 will go on the for sale block after I test it for feeding and accuracy or I may just rebarrel it as its really got a great piece of Russian Circasian walnut from Bill Dowtins Old World Walnut.com.

Ray…Sounds like a new barrel is in order. Once Hornady releases the 416 Ruger there will be many Mauser actions begging for a new barrel so you should be able to readily sell it.

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

I saw the 416 Ruger!

well I've been shooting one.....and let me tell ya something.....it's awesome and in an 8 pound rifle it gets your attention quickly!

...
What length is your barrel ?? How fast with what bullets and loads ??????????????????????????????????????????????????

Please ..

23" Douglas Barrel #5 contour on a Persian Mauser. The most powerful load I've tested is 83 grains H-414 behind a 400 grain Hornady soft point RN at 2400'/sec.

I quit there as it began to hurt and not because I was getting pressure signs.

The load is also quite compressed and the case needs to be trimmed back about .050" if one wants to crimp in the cannelure and still get the round in the magazine.

My chambering reamer also has .25" of freebore that I specified to PTG.

My .416 Ruger has a 20" tube, my first carbine in a long time that I intend to keep maybe...everybody should have one circumsized rifle and this is mine...

BTW I get the same velocity that I get in my 24 inch .416 Rem. out of that short tube...Pretty efficient case IMO...An easy 2400 FPS with any 400 gr. bullet. I will be trying the 450 gr. Woodliehs and its looking like they might even work..I'll let ya all know...

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
So, my new wildcat is no longer a wildcat..I just finished the stock and its blued and ready to put together. It is on a Mauser action and I knew a year and a half ago that Ruger intended to produce the .416 Ruger, and so stated many times on AR. My gun is stamped .416 Ruger on the barrel, not JRS...

I did not know about the .404 and that really bums me as I am a .404 fan..I gotta have a .404 Ruger and it has been destined all along as my next project, so the .416 will go on the for sale block after I test it for feeding and accuracy or I may just rebarrel it as its really got a great piece of Russian Circasian walnut from Bill Dowtins Old World Walnut.com.

Ray,
Any way you sneak me a pic if I PM you?

Joe

I have a Winchester Classic 7mm mag I am thinking would be perfect to have rebarreled in 416 Ruger when it hits the market.What profile barrel and brand would you go with?I think Pacnor will install their own barrels.I just finished a 338 Win Mag on another Classic action I had.McMillan Supergrade stock.Williams 1 peice bottom metal and extractor.I was thinking of setting up the 416 the same way.I am planning a brown bear hunt soon and think this would be a great two gun set.

So the .404 is a "for sure" thing? I'd love a .404 Ruger... that would be about perfect for me. Just something about that calibre.

2400 w/83 gr H414 and a 400 gr bullet ... out of a 23" barrel .... That is very good ... The Rem mag is very efficient also but I think the Ruger will beat it ... As my 416 Rem is here to stay , I may well need to make up a.411 Ruger ...... Ray,, do you have any loads yet ????