My 458 Lott pushes the 500gr bullet at 2362 fps.
and I am not at the top load.

I think this thread is a little off track.
I wanna read about the 505 Gibbs.

There are pages & pages on here about the 458 Lott

quote:

Originally posted by cmfic1:
I think this thread is a little off track.
I wanna read about the 505 Gibbs.

There are pages & pages on here about the 458 Lott

+1

I would like to hear about field results of the 505 vs the lott vs other dg loadings.

Has any body used both on game? Can you see a differance in a buff reaction to a shot with the 505, that is more noticable than the lott.


I know shot placement is evey thing, I am not asking if the lott or 375 or 9.3 etc will kill, I am asking if you see a diffarance in how the game reacts to two similar central mass
hits.

JD

Jeff;

Thanks for your comments (and tone). I understand(I think) the American situation and where you'er coming from and your concerns.

All of my publications have disclaimers (from the beginning more than a dozen years ago).

I have stated on this forum, and elsewhere in my writings, that 2200 fps is POSSIBLE from some 500-grainers and some 24" .458 Win Mags, from at least a couple of powders, at SAAMI COL and psi.

I stand by that, as not only in my experience has that been true from MY CZ, but Hornady, Barnes (numbers 3 & 4)and Accurate Powders confirm that. Do I believe 2200 fps is always, or even necessary. No.

My "job" is simple: to show it's current potential vs what is now history for the .458WM.

Furthermore, I "love" .458" bore: whether it's in .460 WBY, .458 Lott, .458 Win Mag or .45-70. My favorite of all is the .45-70.

If I were younger, I'd probably have a .460 WBY, and at times I'm tempted to have my CZ rechambered to that cartridge... I have a good friend who is a world class gunsmith (has built some Big Bores for the pros)who would do the job at very reasonable cost, though he'd counsel me against it. Practically, I don't need it, components are more costly and the benefit would be minimal, in my view.

Also, practically, I have a Lott anyway when loaded to what both magazine and "freebore" allow. So, to rechamber to Lott is redundant. I have a pile of .458 Win Mag brass, I'm not going to simply chuck it.

As to your comments on age: For me that's NOT one-upmanship, but a reaction to your referring to me as "son", I find that disrespectful and demeaning. Sorry for my reaction, but I was trying to make a point about that...

As to your knowledge and experience: from my analysis of your input and comments: I respect your experience and knowledge of firearms (seriously); it is quite vast and somewhat in depth. BUT, what I don't appreciate is your apparent disrespect of and put-downs of people who disagree with you on some matters.

I'm not trying to win an argument, or prove anyone wrong. I'm trying to contribute to this forum in a way that is helpful to some people. Apparently, at least some have appreciated that from some comments here and mostly in emails and from my blogs, though at times they (my blogs) are satirical.

I think you're a great guy, Jeff, and in some ways not unlike myself. But, methinks we love to make a point too strongly (argue?) at times. Not always appreciated by "the many".

Best to ya, my friend,

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

As to your knowledge and experience: from my analysis of your input and comments: I respect your experience and knowledge of firearms (seriously); it is quite vast and somewhat in depth. BUT, what I don't appreciate is your apparent disrespect of and put-downs of people who disagree with you on some matters.

Exactly right. Jeffe gets tiring fast. I catch his act on almost daily basis. It drags the whole forum down.

Thats awesome FB, you dont have nothing to do with the discussion betwixt Jeff & Bob, then you add your .02 that'll do nothing but heat it up further.

Your last post might of been better suited in a PM to Bob, as opposed to public announcement!

Thanks for taking part in what will surely wreck another good thread!

quote:

Originally posted by J D:


I would like to hear about field results of the 505 vs the lott vs other dg loadings.

Has any body used both on game? Can you see a differance in a buff reaction to a shot with the 505, that is more noticable than the lott.


I know shot placement is evey thing, I am not asking if the lott or 375 or 9.3 etc will kill, I am asking if you see a diffarance in how the game reacts to two similar central mass
hits.

JD

No experience myself but a lot of Australians (I think 500N on this thread for one) shoot buffalo in real big numbers and common opinion seems to be the 50 calibre is a noticeable step up. I thinks blokes like McDonald (Woodleigh) also say the same as well as Bertram.

A lot of also say the 460 Wby is also a noticeable step up.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
While absolutely NOT an expert, I do own a CZ 505 Gibbs. And, I have made two trips to Africa; Zimbabwe 12-08 and RSA 04-10. Being a rifle crank, I asked about ammunition. If need be, you can buy Gibbs ammunition in both countries.

regards,

Rich

Rich, .505 Gibbs ammunition is not very easy to come by here. Only the "bigger" gunshops stock and then to it is about R3000 a box. The lott is much more practical in terms of affordability and availability.

Bob,
I sent you my phone numbers - please give me a call.

quote:

Originally posted by MD375:


Rich, .505 Gibbs ammunition is not very easy to come by here. Only the "bigger" gunshops stock and then to it is about R3000 a box. The lott is much more practical in terms of affordability and availability.

Can you you get either 378 wby, 416 Wby or 460 Wby ammo. What about brass, maybe to make 500 A2

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by J D:


I would like to hear about field results of the 505 vs the lott vs other dg loadings.

Has any body used both on game? Can you see a differance in a buff reaction to a shot with the 505, that is more noticable than the lott.


I know shot placement is evey thing, I am not asking if the lott or 375 or 9.3 etc will kill, I am asking if you see a diffarance in how the game reacts to two similar central mass
hits.

JD

No experience myself but a lot of Australians (I think 500N on this thread for one) shoot buffalo in real big numbers and common opinion seems to be the 50 calibre is a noticeable step up. I thinks blokes like McDonald (Woodleigh) also say the same as well as Bertram.

A lot of also say the 460 Wby is also a noticeable step up.

You are correct. It was Geoff and others who originally told me about the "step up" into the .500 realm. These "others" have shot 5000 Buffalo, one who originally owned my 505 Gibbs, both also used multiple calibres including 500 Nitro.

I was stunned to see the difference a 500 makes, even over a 470.

I have seen the "shock waves" permeate along the body of a Buffalo hit with a 500 Nitro, 505 Gibbs yet do or did not see that with the 458 / 470 cals on identical shots.

Just my HO.

FYI and as a comparison since that is what you asked, I have shot multiple buffalo (at once) with 318WR, 9.3 x 64 (both downloaded and uploaded), 375H&H, 404, 470, 500Nitro, 505 Gibbs + probably a few others.

.

Thanks Jeff for the phone conversation.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Bob,
enjoyed the talk - thanks
jeffe

I will conceed the 505 and .500 Jeffery demonstrate appreciable 'shock' on buff- far more than say a .460 weatherby or a .500 NE - provided appropriate bullets are used.

On elephant...I have never noticed appreciable difference between the speed at which an ele hits the deck between my 9,3 and sundry rifles up to and including .577.

On lion- the .500 Jeffery is clearly superior to most things, but have never seen a lion continue a charge with a good soft point from any HV soft point in the chest.

Ganyana,

noted. However, the American Sport Hunter will never even see one-percent of the Elephant you have killed. For a culler, the answer is the minimum caliber to get the job done; because recoil is cumulative. For us, it is often the hunt of a lifetime. The rifle is a prize possession, not a tool.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
\The rifle is a prize possession, not a tool.

Rich
DRSS

some are .. but i disagree that all rifles are prized ... most are tools.. stocks are handles..

quote:

I have seen the "shock waves" permeate along the body of a Buffalo hit with a 500 Nitro, 505 Gibbs yet do or did not see that with the 458 / 470 cals on identical shots.

quote:

I will conceed the 505 and .500 Jeffery demonstrate appreciable 'shock' on buff- far more than say a .460 weatherby or a .500 NE - provided appropriate bullets are used.

These statements mirror my experience with buffalo as well. The fast 50 caliber rifles are much better "killers" than the lesser bores and that statement includes the 460 Weatherby.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
\The rifle is a prize possession, not a tool.

Rich
DRSS

some are .. but i disagree that all rifles are prized ... most are tools.. stocks are handles..

I'm probably the other side of the fence where a tool is what you use to make a buck etc.My G3 is a tool, my 458 is a prize.
To me fun is as much about the rifle and calibre and shooting and hunting something is a way to see it in action.

As to the bigbore/effect on game debate I think bigbores demonstrate their greatest differences the smaller the game is.Buff and the weaker water buff the jury is slightly in favour of the much bigger gun. Step up to elephant and the graph flattens out and you see 404, 458 and even the 375 start coming back into vogue as best choice.

Elephant guns should probably be better named buffalo guns.

quote:

Originally posted by Karl:
Buff and the weaker water buff .........

Karl,

What do you mean by the sentence above ?

.

500N,

I think the Asian Buffalo, having been able to be domesticated, is seen by many as less dangerous to hunt than the Cape Buffalo.

I think you guys in OZ just need to have a lot more gentlemen hunting them get "whacked" by one to get public perception of them raised. You all might be better shots, or you need to get a better PR firm.

Every season, at least one PH gets a mudhole stomped in his ass by a Cape Buffalo.

Rich
DRSS

Most Buffalo here are not domesticated, far from it in fact.

Talking to people who have shot both, they often say the Water Buff can be harder
to put down but maybe not quite as cunning - however I have had wounded Water Buffalo
hide, back track and hide and wait for us to follow them up to realise that they
can be just as bad if they want to as the stories I have heard about Cape Buffalo.

And people do get stomped, charged and occasionally killed over here,
we just don't make a huge noise about it.

When it does happen, you also tend not to hear about it because it is often
way out in remote areas.

.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
500N,

I think the Asian Buffalo, having been able to be domesticated, is seen by many as less dangerous to hunt than the Cape Buffalo.

I think you guys in OZ just need to have a lot more gentlemen hunting them get "whacked" by one to get public perception of them raised. You all might be better shots, or you need to get a better PR firm.

Every season, at least one PH gets a mudhole stomped in his ass by a Cape Buffalo.

Rich
DRSS

Yes Rich the water buffs are quite easy to hunt and put down once you've got the cows hog tied in the milking shed and the bulls baying in the paddock next door.

No, we hand feed them and then shoot them with a .22 pistol !!! LOL

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

Can you you get either 378 wby, 416 Wby or 460 Wby ammo. What about brass, maybe to make 500 A2

Matt

378 Wby is almost impossible to get. 416 and 460 are brought in by the agents but about three times a year and limited quantities. There are cases readily available for the .460 from private people at a going rate of about R700 for 20.

quote:

Originally posted by MD375:

378 Wby is almost impossible to get. 416 and 460 are brought in by the agents but about three times a year and limited quantities. There are cases readily available for the .460 from private people at a going rate of about R700 for 20.

I would have imagined anyone in Africa using 460 Wby or 505 etc would be reloaders and probably keen reloaders.

quote:

Talking to people who have shot both, they often say the Water Buff can be harder
to put down but maybe not quite as cunning

500N, this has been my experience as well. I would even add that North American bison can frequently be harder to put down than cape buffalo (speaking of mature trophy class bulls vs mature trophy class bulls).

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS

500N, this has been my experience as well. I would even add that North American bison can frequently be harder to put down than cape buffalo (speaking of mature trophy class bulls vs mature trophy class bulls).

Interesting.

I was also only talking mature trophy bulls, not cows or younger one's.

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Karl:
Buff and the weaker water buff .........

Karl,

What do you mean by the sentence above ?

.

Exactly what it read, they still teaching english back in Australia since I left?

Seriously -as I said 'the jury' aka popular opinion- I have not shot cape buff myself anyway so quoting others. Idahosharpshooters post summed up a better reply.

karl.

The Cape buffalo has been marketed much better. It also has a better appearance to suit the marketing.

The water buffalo suffers from a very cattle like appearance as well as lots of pictres/videos of it pulling a plough or a cart.

Mike,

I couldn't agree with your comments more. I believe it is all in the marketing.

And the fact that Cape Buffalo have been hunted and written about for years,
including ex Presidents and being one of the Big Five.

Hard to compete with that.

.

I have been told that one of the more agressive bulls around are ferral texas long horns, that have been living wild for a geration or two.

Any body have any experience with them?

JD

Off the line, I'm a 505 Gibbs fan, having 3 (can't figure out why, it just happened). All are GMA actions and hand built by people who know how to do so. No problem with my brass, but it is Jamison. The 600 gr. solid at 2250 fps is perfectly adequate for anything plus the tree behind it. A bit of care is needed around a herd, thus the current trend to softs first.
I also like the Lott, the 416 Rigby, the 404 etc. My thought is they all work given good rifle/brass/bullets. Most of us aren't subsistence hunting, so this becomes a matter of style and our sense of history. Get what you want, be sure it's solid, shoot it and hunt with it. The game provides the danger; the rest is all for fun and challenge.

quote:

Originally posted by J D:
I have been told that one of the more agressive bulls around are ferral texas long horns, that have been living wild for a geration or two.

Any body have any experience with them?

JD

Over here, any Scrub Bull is considered agressive, they have a habit of charging
without any provication (ie a bullet in them), and when they do have a bullet in them,
if they don't go down, then they seem to want to charge.

I have 2 505 gibbs; a customized CS and a Frank Wells custom job. Love both. Zero problems with both, though i had to work on he CZ to smooth the action, reinforce stock, bed it, shorten the humongous 25 inch barrel etc
Wells has open sights; CZ has a Dokter optic red dot,removable.
IMHO, 505 is a great caliber, but recoil significantly greater than comparable load in Lott (I have a 458 Lott also, 8.5 lb rifle, whitworth customization).

SO: both cartridges will do the job
505 will do it with panache and recoil; 458 will just get it done
you can load a modern action 505 eg cz with 600 gr bullet with 142 gr IMR 7828 to get 2400 fps,no problems
Lott tops out at 500 gr, 2200 fps,safely
End result is the same
But when you touch off the 505, the earth moves, and the buff goes DOWN.
If you area prcticalguy, rifle is a tool, go for the Lott
If you are a romantic that reads Hemingway and likes to feel the earth move, go for the 505
But you will have to customize the CZ considerably; its a big, clunky hunk of ordnance as is.
PM me for details if you wish

Water Buffalo just need better PR.

I cannot agree that Bison are tough to kill. I have killed several, we run a few cows here, but Mamma refuses to eat any thing else if Bison are available. Sooo, being the good guy that I am, I go shoot one every year to 18 months. It's just to keep her happy.

Rich

I can't talk about hunting bufalo, as I haven't done that yet. However I stepped up from 338 Win Mag to 505 Gibbs. It was a lot to get used to. You have to reload or the ridiculous price of factory ammo will never let you get enough practice to get good enough to hunt with anything this size. I have fired a 458 Lott at the range, and it seems mild in comparison. However, now I am used to it and I love to shoot the 505 Gibbs. Mine is built on a GMA action. I have so far only taken a few pigs with it. I used 525 gn Woodleigh RNSN at 2500fps, and that is absolutely devastating on Pigs. I recovered 2 of the 3 projectiles, which stopped on the fighting shield. See my previous post under "505 gibbs bullet test-470 nitro also"
For Buffalo I would use the 600gn Woodleigh at 2270fps for better penetration. I have also folded a few shoulders, but once I had my dies adjusted properly, that problem went away.Hope this helps

Don't have a Gibbs, but I have a 500 Jeffery. Although it took a bit before "Baby" and I got to know each other. I really enjoy shooting her offhand. I shot with a friend who was complaining about his 338 synthetic BAR's recoil. I shot it and said what is this a 22?



Chuck

Rich,

Bison seem to vary greatly. The wild ones (one which run when they see you at better than a 1/4 mile away) seem to be much harder to drop, not to mention stalk. These are rare for the most part it seems. It also seems to matter if they are in the herd or out alone (single animal) in some "kill" pasture somewhere. The farm raised ones which you can usually pet, they don't seem to be so tough. Size of the rifle seems to matter a bit too. I have seen wild bison soak up lead like no other, I have seen petting zoo bison succumb to a two shots from a 30-30 and a chase with the 4 wheeler to get them to "bleed out quicker". Size matters too it seems as well as general age and physical condition. Don't under estimate the cows either, they can be tough old guys.

Seen cape buffalo dropped with a double tap from a Kalashnikov also.

Seen water buff dropped with a 30-30 also.

What does it all mean???

Only bovine to ever hunt me was an UNWOUNDED herd bull bison. He put three separate stalks on me while cow hunting, but that is another story.

Never needed more than one 535, 570, or 600 gr Woodleigh soft point to drop any buffalo in less than 3 seconds, though. Cannot say that I seen the lesser caliber finish them so quickly.

Of course what do I know. It isn't like I killed a few or anything.

Whew! Ol Scotty Poo is sure slinging some BS! You can be sure that this story like so many others is just part of his drug induced delerium. -Rob