I am considering a .505 Gibbs CZ Am.Safari Classic, to go with my .375 CZ ASC.
Is it worth the additional expense, considering I can get a Lott for half the price?
I reload, and am not recoil sensitive.
Looking for input from those with experience with the big boomers.
I have and shoot a Barrett M99 50BMG, but don't think they would let me take it on my next buffalo hunt.
Input?

I'd get the Lott and forget about the .505 Gibbs
The Lott can kill any animal in the world.I am
going elephant hunting next year with CZ 458 Lott

The 505 is not always an easy cartridge...expensive and if the rounds are loaded to CIP standard they will be 'underloaded' for use in a CZ with it's long throat. Many cases have trouble with a weak shoulder etc.

Buy a Lott...You can down load it to shoot pigs and deer at home and load it up to shoot anything you fancy in Africa.

What part of Texas are you in? on oct 23rd, we are having a big bore shoot down south of Houston - and I bet someone will be happy to let you shoot big bores.

the barret 50, unless you took the brake off, doesn't count in the hunting rifles/recoil/etc

If this is your first big bore AND you reload, get the 458 lott .. easier to feed, shoot, maintain, etc..

458 lott is easier, but what good in life is easy. If you want a Gibbs, get one. I'm having a LH one made as we speak. Tip Burns is doing 3 down inline feed on a LH CZ 550, should be done by Dec. Cannot wait to have a gibbs with a bolt on the correct side!

Ed

It's wonderfully nostalgic and fun on that merit, but not particularly practical. I have one and enjoy it a lot. People unfamiliar with it over-estimate it's power, however. It does not match the massive firepower that the case size implies. Loaded to CIP it beats the 500 Nitro by a small velocity margin but with 45 grains less in bullet weight. Numerically it is very close to the 458 Lott in energy.


Having said that, in a PH action and with heavy-web Jamison brass one can exceed CIP pressure by a margin that puts the 505 in a whole 'nother class and safely drive 600 gr bullets to 2600 fps. THAT will get your attention!

Gentlemen,
Thank you all for the responses. They are greatly appreciated.
I have dreamed of a .505 Gibbs for a while, and suppose I will have to continue to do so for a while longer. I believe I will have to learn to walk before I can run.
I took my CZ .375 on my first safari and shot a very nice buff and some plains game with it. I realize it doesn't qualify as a big bore, so I have decided to go with the Lott.
After I have mastered the .458, maybe I will be better prepared, both financially, and in skill level to handle the Gibbs.
jeffeoso-
I live just east of Dallas, and I saw a post about the big bore shoot you mentioned. I am trying to make arrangements to attend. I really hope I can make it, as I would like to get to know some of you guys personally.
And by the way, I think I will leave the brake on my Barrett. I can't afford to replace the scope right now!

Thanks again for the advice.
John

I bought the CZ 458 win converted to a Lott a few years back. I had a local gunsmith do what amounts to a AHR grade 2 upgrade and cut the barrel to 23". If I would have known about Wayne at AHR I would have sent it to him. Would have saved me about $500.00 It holds 6 down in the magazine. Can you imagine the firepower with one up the spout? It is a chunk of a gun but I am growing fond of it.

quote:

Originally posted by SemperFiHunter:
Gentlemen,
Thank you all for the responses. They are greatly appreciated.
I have dreamed of a .505 Gibbs for a while, and suppose I will have to continue to do so for a while longer. I believe I will have to learn to walk before I can run.
I took my CZ .375 on my first safari and shot a very nice buff and some plains game with it. I realize it doesn't qualify as a big bore, so I have decided to go with the Lott.
After I have mastered the .458, maybe I will be better prepared, both financially, and in skill level to handle the Gibbs.
jeffeoso-
I live just east of Dallas, and I saw a post about the big bore shoot you mentioned. I am trying to make arrangements to attend. I really hope I can make it, as I would like to get to know some of you guys personally.
And by the way, I think I will leave the brake on my Barrett. I can't afford to replace the scope right now!

Thanks again for the advice.
John

quote:

Originally posted by 505ED:
458 lott is easier, but what good in life is easy. If you want a Gibbs, get one. I'm having a LH one made as we speak. Tip Burns is doing 3 down inline feed on a LH CZ 550, should be done by Dec. Cannot wait to have a gibbs with a bolt on the correct side!

Ed

Be sure to post pics here or in the lefties forum upon completion....for us "inquiring minds"

Forget the Gibbs....and get a Jeffery...as in 500 Jeffery! I love mine!

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

John, my progression was the same as yours.

First, the .375 H&H Mag., then the .458 Lott and finally a big fifty - in my case, because I am more practical than nostalgic, a .500 A-Square.

Each of the Lott and the .500 was a big, and I do mean big, step up the ladder, as compared with its predecessor, in terms of quick incapacitation and killing power.

My only advice would be not to wait too long. None of us is getting any younger, and none of us is promised even a single tomorrow.

I have shot and or own at least one of every major big bore out there. I've personally built two 505 Gibbs rifles and rarely shoot them. To be clear its over-rated and when the big .50 fever hits, I cant think of anything I'd rather have than a .500 a2. If you really want a 505 Gibbs at least now adays you can buy a off the shelf CZ. My first Gibbs was hand made from a 1917 Enfield. Think hard about a .500a2. -Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Many cases have trouble with a weak shoulder etc.

First time I have ever heard of that.

Where did that come from ?

Personal experience ?


Never had a problem with 505 Gibbs cases.
They are easy to neck size only and re use.

.

.505 E.D. , Go to ''Lefty's and have a look at my .505 Gibbs with the bolt on the ''correct ''side Built on a Granite Mountain action by Aussie Gunsmiths. Regards from fellow ''Lefty'' Dhufish.

One positive attribute is the low pressure that it operates at. Of course, one person's positive may be his friend's negative.

As with all big bore cartridges, the result is due almost entirely to the level of skill and attention to detail of the of the builder.

quote:

Originally posted by dhufish:
.505 E.D. , Go to ''Lefty's and have a look at my .505 Gibbs with the bolt on the ''correct ''side Built on a Granite Mountain action by Aussie Gunsmiths. Regards from fellow ''Lefty'' Dhufish.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...471092831#3471092831

Who did the metal parts. I ask because I thought Ross was only doing stocks and gave away doing metal.

Edite; I should have read more ...and gunsmithing by Tony Argent (M.A.B.
barrels) and finished off by Bob De Vries (Kudu Services)

Interesting that you have the 505 but the Dakota is 375 Ruger. I would thought a real safe bet was anyone with a GMA 505 would have the 375 bore as 375 H&H

PS

500N,

Ganyana has much first hand experience as a PH, in culling and generally being within a few yards as the elephant, buffalo, etc. goes four feet up, or postal, depending on its mood .

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
PS

500N,

Ganyana has much first hand experience as a PH, in culling and generally being within a few yards as the elephant, buffalo, etc. goes four feet up, or postal, depending on its mood .

Not a problem, I do the same with Buffalo, but PH'ing, culling and generally hunting DG has nothing to do with the 505 Gibbs shoulder.


BTW - I have an Original 505 Gibbs and a custom 500 Jeffrey and reload for both.

.
.

While absolutely NOT an expert, I do own a CZ 505 Gibbs. And, I have made two trips to Africa; Zimbabwe 12-08 and RSA 04-10. Being a rifle crank, I asked about ammunition. If need be, you can buy Gibbs ammunition in both countries.

More importantly you can always down load it to 458 Lott power levels for practice...

regards,

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:

More importantly you can always down load it to 458 Lott power levels for practice...

regards,

Rich

silly -
500gr at 2300 vs 525 at 2350 .., comparing apples to apples -- the 500gr .458 is a MUCH higher SD as well ...

I ave my 505 at the hoot and shoot if interested in shooting it. a 141 gr load of rl 25 and 535 gr flatnose barnes will shoot through 30 plus inches of 11/8 inch thick solid plywood. Max load of 151gr is much sharper and has less muzzel flash, it leaves cantalope size holes in the 200 yard berm at the range, although listed as max by barnes there are no pressure signs and could be loaded.
hotter.

Its very shootable with a scope at 12-13 lbs. I have broken clay pegions at 200 yards with about a 8" hold over. The 500a2 would be easier but does not have the charm of the 505 and when load to the 2200 fps range the 505 is much lower on pressure and case life is good.

JD

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by dhufish:
.505 E.D. , Go to ''Lefty's and have a look at my .505 Gibbs with the bolt on the ''correct ''side Built on a Granite Mountain action by Aussie Gunsmiths. Regards from fellow ''Lefty'' Dhufish.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...471092831#3471092831

Who did the metal parts. I ask because I thought Ross was only doing stocks and gave away doing metal.

Edite; I should have read more ...and gunsmithing by Tony Argent (M.A.B.
barrels) and finished off by Bob De Vries (Kudu Services)

Interesting that you have the 505 but the Dakota is 375 Ruger. I would thought a real safe bet was anyone with a GMA 505 would have the 375 bore as 375 H&H

WOW very nice, mine will be a bit more cobbled together than that, I wish I could have found a rigby style floor plate for the CZ as I think it would have given it a bit of cool factor. Man Dhufish your gibbs is a knockout!!!

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Many cases have trouble with a weak shoulder etc.

First time I have ever heard of that.

Where did that come from ?

Personal experience ?


Never had a problem with 505 Gibbs cases.
They are easy to neck size only and re use.

.

I had the same problem with a batch of soft brass but it went away when I got my Jamison brass.

So what was the problem with the Shoulder ?

Did it collapse when reloading ?

.

I had some collapse at the shoulder, when trying to crimp. I've been reloading since the 70s and have a pretty good idea when my die is set wrong; in this case (pardon the pun) any attempt a crimping crushed a few, regardless of case length or amount of crimp. The cases were Bertram. I still use them but for light cast-only loads that don't need a crimp.

But I've had zero problems since I switched to Jamison brass.

Bertram, that explains it. No wonder I haven't had the problem.


I have a few but don't crimp my cases.


I now use Bell Brass. Much better quality.

.

500N

There was a craze 3 or 4 years back for .505's as the 'ultimate' PH rifle. CZ started offering them and even D'Arcy Echols made a few. Sabi in South Africa turned out a bunch etc....

Seldom have I seem more trouble with one cartridge! In the CZ's in particular, the rounds slamming into the front of the mag generally caused the shoulders to buckel by the time you got to round no 4...no much...just enough not to chamber...

Then Norma PH ammo became available...but several of the rifles don't like the slick caes and they pop out of the mag when loading or two pop up when you try and feed....rub the cases with a bit of sand paper and the problem seems to go away...Norma are now making plain brass cases as well...and have doubled the thickness of the brass at the shoulder to make sure that the shoulders don't buckel...

Lastly there is the problem of pressure...in theory there should be no problem because the 505 is rated for only 270mPa (about 39,150PSI)..but you either end up over loading it (which SHOULD be no trouble in a modern action but I have seen otherwise- locking lugs setting back on two rifles) or you end up using such a slow burning powder that the muzzel blast in low light is enough to scare the bejabbers out of everybody and you have all the joys of funny ignition if the primers are not up to standard.

compared to the .500 Jeffery...the Gibbs looks great but...naw it is twice the size but only half the cartridge.

Gayana

Thanks.

I think any problems with my rifle would have shown up years ago when it was made.

Never had the problems you had but then again,
I expect George Gibbs new what he was talking about when he made them !!!!


Because I load from the shoulder, the only problem I have had is I short stroked the bolt once or twice (Being a Magnum action) !!!!

Very unlike me but muscle memory is hard to overcome !!! LOL

.

The 505 is the classiest of the pair although a lot of that is lost when it is just a factory CZ.

For a CZ the 500 A2 would be best becasue pf practicality.

Ganyana,

I dunno about where you live, but in America, in this litigious society; any design deficiencies are quickly relegated to the dustbin. If an attorney could find an issue with the 505 or anything else in a factory CZ they'd own CZ-USA in about a year. Ask Ruger...

My CZ works flawlessly, every time out, with factory or cast bullet loads.

I thought the proven theory was a big bullet at low pressure. The 500Shuler/Jeffrey loads are a lot higher pressure than the Gibbs.
Besides, didn't you gain fame and fortune using a 9,3mm of some sort?


Rich
Suffering thru with a wimpy 505 Gibbs...

In the end both the 500J and 505G just work.

The 600gn bullets make a difference.

I think they were under powered with the respective original bullet weights.

.

IDSS...Yup I use a 9,3 (and have a .375 FL double) but have loaded and played with several 505's that various PH's have bought and had trouble with.

And I am darn sure you are right about the quality of the CZ rifles sold in the USA...you won't see bolt set back...however, we get S&W revolvers with the sights offset at 15º and one with no rifling in the barrel (brand new in the box) etc, but the issues with the (new)CZ's have largely been the 'slop' in the magazine- not a problem with a good case but the shoulder design on the gibbs is particularly weak and prone to buckle much more readily than a conventional 20-30º shoulder.

And yes, low pressure is always a good thing in a hot climate, the problem is just how slow a modern powder you need to use to keep it within design pressures- H1000, Retumbo, reloader 25 etc. Anything quicker and you will exceed maximum pressure. I tried to work up a load using Somchem S385 (roughly H870) and could only get a 525grn bullet to 2200fps within specified pressure.

About a decade back CZ put alot of actions on the market- John Rigby used them when they launched the .450 Rigby...and all the original rifles have suffered bolt set back. Rigby must have lost a fortune in fixing them (which they have done , even after the name was sold). Many of the custom rifle makers in Africa got caught with the same batch....and for whatever reason the problem is at its worst with large diamiter cases...same actions...no real trouble in .458 Lott...big problems in .450 Rigby and bigger problems in .505


Also, I heard a rumor that the .505 was a bitch to get to feed with the Barnes Flat nosed solid- I have never loaded those only woodleighs but have heard that from two different custom rifle makers (who are both pretty good)

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
IDSS...Yup I use a 9,3 (and have a .375 FL double) but have loaded and played with several 505's that various PH's have bought and had trouble with.

And I am darn sure you are right about the quality of the CZ rifles sold in the USA...you won't see bolt set back...however, we get S&W revolvers with the sights offset at 15º and one with no rifling in the barrel (brand new in the box) etc, but the issues with the (new)CZ's have largely been the 'slop' in the magazine- not a problem with a good case but the shoulder design on the gibbs is particularly weak and prone to buckle much more readily than a conventional 20-30º shoulder.

And yes, low pressure is always a good thing in a hot climate, the problem is just how slow a modern powder you need to use to keep it within design pressures- H1000, Retumbo, reloader 25 etc. Anything quicker and you will exceed maximum pressure. I tried to work up a load using Somchem S385 (roughly H870) and could only get a 525grn bullet to 2200fps within specified pressure.

About a decade back CZ put alot of actions on the market- John Rigby used them when they launched the .450 Rigby...and all the original rifles have suffered bolt set back. Rigby must have lost a fortune in fixing them (which they have done , even after the name was sold). Many of the custom rifle makers in Africa got caught with the same batch....and for whatever reason the problem is at its worst with large diamiter cases...same actions...no real trouble in .458 Lott...big problems in .450 Rigby and bigger problems in .505


Also, I heard a rumor that the .505 was a bitch to get to feed with the Barnes Flat nosed solid- I have never loaded those only woodleighs but have heard that from two different custom rifle makers (who are both pretty good)

It seems that the 505 Gibbs is being tarred with a brush that is not the cartridges fault.

One or 2 people talking about shoulder problems which is most likely caused by the brass, not the cartridge design.

Then bolt set back problems - that's a gunsmith problem in picking the wrong action for the job.

Then feeding problems with ONE particular bullet. A bit like Win Mod 70 in 458's and CZ 458's that wouldn't feed 500gn bullets.

It's not a cartridge problem, it's a gun design problem.


As I said before, the 505 Gibbs worked fine in the past.

Same as some gunsmith's can't get 500 Jeff's to feed - it's a gunsmiths problem, not a cartridge problem.

Just my HO.

.

500 N,

based on the issues with the ones Ganyana speaks of, I would have passed on my CZ 505G. Fortunately, the one I bought has had zero issues. All it has ever digested are Woodleighs, but how many good bullets do you need? One each, softs and solids for most under fifty caliber. We got that.

Rich
DRSS
CZ fan

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
500 N,

based on the issues with the ones Ganyana speaks of, I would have passed on my CZ 505G. Fortunately, the one I bought has had zero issues. All it has ever digested are Woodleighs, but how many good bullets do you need? One each, softs and solids for most under fifty caliber. We got that.

Rich
DRSS
CZ fan

I understand, but since I have one, and a Custom 500J and have seen a few Custom 500J's built, that is why I was dispelling the problems.

A lot of the problems I have seen stem from gunsmiths not setting
up the mag / feed ramp correctly - I have seen the rounds JUMP out of the magazine, floorplate open up in custom 500 J's - is it a 500J cartridge problem or a gunsmith / design problem ?


Remember the 458WM with Winchester 458WM ammo, 510 gn bullet I think it was.

Try getting it to feed 450gn and 500gn bullets with different nose shapes, quite a few had to be slightly modified so that they fed easily. Some CZ's also had the problem. I am not sure why but from what we all determined it was the different shape of the bullets from the Win factory loadings.


Anyway, nothing wrong with the 505 Gibbs in my opinion !!!

.

I don't think it s true to say feeding issues are not calibre based.

If someone asked you the question....if the 500 Jeffrey was given a full size rim then would that improve its feeding...what would your answer be....or if someone asked you....if the 458 Win loaded with spitzers or semi spitzers would that improve feeding over using blunt bullets...what would your answer be.

And if we consider the 458 Win/Lott feeding issues with blunt/flat nose bullets are of course due to the straight case, that is, bullet diameter being almost the same as the rear of the chamber. In other words feeding issues are introduced into the equation before the rifle is even made.

The fact that a gunsmith can overcome these issues does not change the fact that certain calibres have inherent feeding difficulties.

Ganyana's comments on the CZ setback are interestting and especially with 450 Rigby. Given all the CZs loaded to modern maximum loads in 500 A2 and lots of 416 Rigbys loaded to full potential, it must have been a real "one off" batch. Although one would think that bolt thrust with a 458 Lott at full pressure and a 450 Rigby loaded with what amounts to reduced loads wouldbe similar.

I am sticking with Wby Mark Vs in 378 based calibres and nice simple in line feed

There must be something wrong with my CZ550 in .458 Win Mag... I just can't seem to get it to malfunction!

Try as I might, it just doesn't!

I've tried loads shorter than SAAMI, at SAAMI and longer than SAAMI, but SAAMI doesn't interfere with it's smooth chambering of spitzers, flatnoses or roundnoses shooting casts, monos or cup-n-core! It just works! Never had one pop out yet uninvited!

Now... that seems to go very much against what I've been told on the Internet... you know it's infinite wisdom.

I think mine must be a one-off... The computer (at the store where I bought it) says it's "American", yet it's appearance is very much British (NOT the humpback EURO). You can see for yourself on my website.

Then, when I've loaded it "long", to Lott length and beyond (it allows up to 3.8" COL), I've been told it's no longer a .458 Winchester, even though the markings on the barrel say it is! And the brass I'm using says so too!

I'm confused!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
Then, when I've loaded it "long", to Lott length and beyond (it allows up to 3.8" COL), I've been told it's no longer a .458 Winchester, even though the markings on the barrel say it is! And the brass I'm using says so too!

I'm confused!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Bob,
thread about a 505 gibbs, and you are ranting about your "winmag"

that you are confused that loading longer than spec on a winmag changes the equation casts serious doubts on your credibility, you know?

to think a cz AMERICAN stock looks english proves, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that your tastes are equally easily confused.. compared to an english stock, its more crudgle than club

a 458 winmag is 3.35" oal, if you care to READ saami or CIP or ANY other spec ...

when you load it to lott or longer, son, you aren't deal with the effective case capacity of a winmag ...

sorry if this confuses you .. its rather a simple concept ..

would you use your EXACT load data with a 3.35: loading?

are you willing to be sued in to poverty from the survivoring family members?

you DO understand that your load data, without HUGE disclaimers, is radically unsafe for someone with, oh, say, a 50s winchester model 70 original in 458 win mag?

Good day to you too Jeff;

May I call you "son"? Since I'll be 75 in a few weeks, there's little doubt that I've been "huntin' 'n shootin'" before you were born!

Now, as to my CZ, I didn't design the stock.... as you see it, is how it came out of the box! It was called "American" on the computer at the "store" - one of the largest in Canada, perhaps THE largest dealer. It's look to me is British, with a slight drop to the comb--which is not humpback but straight.

As to your condescending tone... it's not appreciated. No doubt you know some things that I don't, but I've yet to bust any rifle, and that includes a considerable number, from handloading, and sticky bolts have been very few. I've blown three primers in three decades and one was a book load.

I know pretty much what my pressures are and nothing was said in this post that talks about psi or MV... ONLY COL!

I'm NOT ALONE IN THAT ON HERE! One of the African PH's (forget his name), and respected writer HAS mentioned on this forum that there are several PH's in South Africa who've been loading their BRNO 602s in .458 WM to Lott length AND VELOCITIES (2300 fps with 500s). How come you didn't jump on him???

Anyway, whatever I write IS qualified. IF you can load it to Lott length, with reasonable freebore, THEN (and only then) can you load your .458 WM like a Lott! IF that offends you, so be it!

And, by the way: others on this very thread were discussing CZ actions, and others, suitable, or not, in chambering certain cartridges AND bullets... the M70 was mentioned as well as the CZ in differing chamberings. That's why I gave input about MY experience in chambering hundreds of loads through MY CZ without default!

I also was trying to add some humor, the confused part, and you turned it into a rant and sarcasm.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, including you, just sharing my experience...which by the way has been accepted and appreciated by many.

I've no doubt that you have great experience and ability for your years and, no doubt, you'll learn a whole lot more... hopefully.

I wish you nothing but the best,

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Bob,
you are a bit younger than my dad,but, sure, if it suits you, give it a go. you are certainly older than me, but we aren't discussing age, now, are we? we are discussing guns and ammo.

humor, on the internet, without tone and body language, is frequently misunderstood.

your stock is the american .. its overly thick, overly heavy, and nothing british, even in outline.
**no humor or niceness for a second**
i truly up this makes it throough your persona -- your loads are unsafe for MOST reloaders and would result in unsafe loads for most reloaders that don't comprehend OAL and pressure-

are your exact loads, even reduced 10% anything like safe if loaded in a 3.35" OAL?

In the US, publishing those loads would result in an accident and then several lawsuits ..

** return to jovial **

as for "experience for my years". I didn't bring age, or relative difference, into the discussion - though I do hope that when i reach 75, i am hale and hearty enough to be in the field and shooting big bores ... but I am not waiting. Nor will i play one-up-manship over age vs experience. You certainly may have more years afield, bless you for having them.

Bob,
all the best, hope you win.