I took the rifle out with my 14 year old son on saturday and shot a few goats. They were about 100 meters away on a slope. A couple collapsed to the shot and one walked a bit. A free hand shot at 120 meters flattened that one!



My boy used the Kimber 7mm08 & shot 2 at 120 meters. He is so thrilled! He has used the rifle for 2 years and shot goats before but this time he was not bothered by the recoil.

That's one happy son.

If he handles the 7-08 correctly, let him shoot dad's 416 next time. He's big enough and he will have a proper perspective on rifles. They don't hurt us but are tools for the animals.

I also have a CZ 550 Safari Mag in .416 Rigby. Great rifle.

Always interesting to select ammo components for such a beast. Lots of opinions.

Personally have found the 350 X or TSX to have quite a flat trajectory and to be extremely effective when driven at 2700 fps.

Tracking up an old dugga boy in knee high grass, I hit him on the ground from the back side. As I am not tall and could not see well, I hit him in the right thigh. Projectile went through the femur (which is huge), completely through the gut and lodged under the skin on the front of his chest. Did blow the petals off ... but took out everything that was important on the way. Excellent performance.

quote:

Originally posted by mstarling:
I also have a CZ 550 Safari Mag in .416 Rigby. Great rifle.

Always interesting to select ammo components for such a beast. Lots of opinions.

Personally have found the 350 X or TSX to have quite a flat trajectory and to be extremely effective when driven at 2700 fps.

Tracking up an old dugga boy in knee high grass, I hit him on the ground from the back side. As I am not tall and could not see well, I hit him in the right thigh. Projectile went through the femur (which is huge), completely through the gut and lodged under the skin on the front of his chest. Did blow the petals off ... but took out everything that was important on the way. Excellent performance.

Extremely effective.
Amen.

I've blown off petals, too, at close range, and I still prefer sending the 350 grain bullets out at 2825 fps in the Rigby.

Here is something from 2011. Left bullet is 110 yard, 350 grain TSX, 2825fps muzzle, recovered on far side of buffalo shoulder. Right bullet with blown petals is from the same buffalo follow-up from about 20 yards, through sternum up through heart and into top skin of neck on the far side.
The buffalo picture shows position where first bullet was cut out.




and from 2012:
a face shot on a buffalo at 70 yards, 350 grain TSX, 2825 fps muzzle, recovered at the back of neck-shoulder.
The bullet SMASHED its way through the face/head and went through extreme trauma. That's why we like monolithics.


then the same bullet with its case, showing normal Fed215GM primer. Case extraction was smooth. 2825fps seems pretty easy for the big Rigby case.



Some more pix of Rigby bullet performance:

Below, the top left bullet is from a 2010 buffalo (350 TSX, 2700 fps muzzle, 275 yard follow-up shot [wide-open plain, first shot was at 200 yards and a broadside passthrough])
and then the top right bullet,
a 2011 follow-up shot on a hartebeest: about 100 yards, lengthwise from the rear, petals knocked off, leaving a square face.
[below those bullets in the same picture are the 2011 buffalo bullets on the bottom of the four bullets in the picture against a map of the Selous]



Here is the 2011 hartebeest, pointing out first shot (passthrough)


Finally
2012 hartebeest showing follow-up shooting, where the first bullet is visible on the far side of hartebeest skin.
It was 180 yards, 2825 350gn-TSX, angled front leg that hit spine and deflected up.



Here below is the recovered bullet from the 2012 hartebeest along with its case showing good primer shape. 2825fps 350grain is a reasonable load in a Rigby.




I like 2800 fps because it allows hunting with a handloaded 416 Rigby and a 338WinMag (225 TTSX) with almost identical velocities. The 225gn-TTSX Win Mag would be the choice in a windy condition for long-range antelope because of the better BC.
With 7-08 you might try 140 grain for 2800 fps.

--

Wow! That is great info. What powder are you using?

At the moment I have 400 gr Hornady (old Interlocked) loaded with AR 2209 (H4350). I have not chronographed it but seeing it is 106 gr of powder it should be around 2600 fps. EDITED It is actually 410 grain Woodleighs with 96 gr of AR 2209 (H4350) The primers look like yours. Very easy extraction.

I have a packet of 350gr TSX. I am planning to import from CEB bullets. I am also getting some 400gr old Interlocked.

-

My load is 102.5 of Reloder 17 and 2825fps is about 6200 ftlbs with the 350 grainer.

I would have guessed that 106 grains of H4350 with 400 grain bullets would be pretty hot, maybe over 2700fps. It's hard to say because barrels, chambers, and batches of powder can be slightly different. The third edition Barnes lists 98 grains of H4350 with their older 400gn. "X" bullet at 2599 fps, which is a 6000 ftlb. load. I tend to rate the Rigby as a 6000 to 6200 ftlb. cartridge, assuming modern rifles and brass at about 60000psi. The modern CZ's are good for this.

Generally, you should stay under 416Weatherby loads. and at over a hundred grains of powder one should work up slowly with a chronograph. Barnes 4th lists 106.5 grains H4350 for 2704fps in the Weatherby , which has 3-4 grains more powder capacity than the 416Rigby. Hodgdon only lists 94 grains of H4350 with the 416Rigby and 400 grain Hornady for an anemic 2456fps at 43,500 CUP.

Thanks Tanzan

Yes I agree that safety and common sense is vital for handloading. I tend to be quite conservative and rarely push for max velocity. The info is what I got from the guy who did the loads and even he is not 100% sure as these were probably done in 2008.

I was not planning to go over 2450 fps for 400 gr or 2700 fps for the 350 gr. If I can get my hands on the 300gr bullet I'll drive it to 2850 fps I guess.

I also tend to keep it simple - if I can use just 1 powder and get within 100 fps with good accuracy I tend to stop there and not make any more changes.

With other calibers like the the 222 Rem, 6.5X55 & 280 Ack Imp I tend to play a lot.

Nice rifle!

Nakihunter, my mates and I use 94 grains of 2209 with 410 grain Woodleighs (and 400 grain Woodleigh Hydros). It gives about 2350fps.

Did you order the rifle with the synthetic stock? And why did you opt for synthetic?

.416Rigby is a fantastic cartridge and the CZ-550 is a great rifle.

Tanzan416 that's a young soft boss buff there. Nice.


Why push the velocity? Is it where you achieved the optimum accuracy, if so that makes sense.

Blowing the petals off the X bullet does not seem optimum to me though.

Demonical - The rifle came with a Kevlar Bell & Carlson alluminium bed stock. I would not have bought a CZ in the caliber if it had a wood stock because of the reputation of CZ bigbore wood stocks breaking. A real nightmare getting warranty fixes here in NZ!

The other BIG factor is that it was the only big bore new rifle available in NZ at that time! There was a project rifle 404 Jeffery for sale which was a real beauty with nice walnut & rust blue but heavier.

I chose the CZ and am really happy with the way I can shoot it. I also realise that the reloading bits are easier to find than a 404J and the resale value of the CZ should hold.

quote:

Originally posted by Demonical:
Tanzan416 that's a young soft boss buff there. Nice.

Very tasty. The hunting block owner approved. The herd had one tasty bull, so the choice was 'look for a dagga-boy on the last day' or take some wonderful filets and rump on the second to last day.

quote:

Why push the velocity? Is it where you achieved the optimum accuracy, if so that makes sense.

Blowing the petals off the X bullet does not seem optimum to me though.

I suppose that I like hunting at 2800 fps. Even 2800 isn't too fast for the petals, it's primarily a bone issue. If bone is struck at 25-75 yards, the animal goes down. And at 300 yards we still get nice expansion and flat trajectory.

Win win.

Below is a follow-up 350 grain TSX at approximately 2050 fps impact. The follow-up shot was using an older load, 2650 fps, which probably dropped to 2050 fps at 275 yards. The same impact would be achieved out at 375 yards with the 2825 fps round.



Sorry for the blurred picture. At least the limited curl is visible, as well as the primer on the Norma case, comparable to the hotter loads in the Hornady cases pictured earlier above.

The 'blossom' on the slow impact bullet can be compared below. The 275-yard 2050fps impact follow-up is on the left. Then to the right is the 2011 buffalo, then the 2011 follow-up on the hartebeest that hit some bone, and on the right is the 20-yard insurance shot on the 2011 buffalo that went sternum-to-neck.



Better focus on this second picture.

And the bullet performance was
Win. Win.

Tanzan416, FYI I have a ZKK-602 in .416RM. The rifle was manufactured in 1989, which is the year that Remington commercialized the .416RM. The original owner of the rifle bought it (.375H&H) and immediately had it re-bored (not re-barreled) and the chamber reamed to .416RM.

I had the original Euro hump-backed stock replaced with a McMillan, a barrel band added, the barrel cut down from 25" to 23.5". The gunsmith also glass-bedded the action. It's a superb rifle, perfect for anything from Alaska, to Africa, to Alberta, where I live and hunt (moose & bear).
Leupold Vari-XIII 1.75-6X scope on it.

I bet that buff' had some nice steaks...








2010 black bear that I took with the .416RM.

Well, I am getting impatienty & bored .....

The 1-4X VX2 Leupold had spots on the front lens (after 8 years) & I sent it back. It arrived yesterday with a new lens!

I confirmed that the ammo I got has Woodleigh 410 gr bullets and (Edited) 96 gr 98 gr (I just pulled 15 rounds & wighed the loads) of AR 2209 (H4350) PROBABLY AR 2213 SC (H4831 SC) as the velocity is just 2280 fps . I managed to buy a pkt of Woodleigh softs, 2 pkts of Woodleigh 340 gr, 4 pkts of the Hronady Interlocked & 1 packet of barnes 350 gr TSX. I now need to get some mono metal solids. YES - I got these too! 400 gr Barnes banded solids - new round nose type.

I hope the weather remais dry over the weekend so I can shoot some goats!

I have managed to find a trim die (RCBS will ship to NZ!). I also found one guy who will ship a scope - I am awaiting a Leupold Mod AR 1.5-4X illuminated reticle - 1" tube, which I am particular about. It is supposed to be the illuminated version of the shotgun scope and used for tactical rifles. Leupold tech team said it would be suitable for the 416 Rigby.

At last I solved the scope problem. I bit the bullet and got a VX3 1.5-5 Illuminated reticle scope 30mm & so I had to spend more on the rings. But the scope is a perfect fit & the rings are behind the lens & so there is no crushing or any other problem. Getting secondhand was really worth the price!

I now need to send off the other two scopes to Leupold for fixing.

I also got the RCBS 416 Rigby trim dies in the post today - about 3 months back ordered!

I also managed to find a box of Speer 350 gr bullets in the local shop that is closing out.

Now I have to do some loads & practice - as the weather improves.

Just got the last CZ 550 458 win out of Killwell they only have 375 H&H's left.Same as yours with Kevlar as well.Fitted a Leupold 2-7 x 33 that needed a home and Warne rings.I have plenty of projectiles from the work done with the 450 BPE but may be waiting a while for dies and cases.

Nakihunter,

I expect you'll get great service from this excellent rifle.
No game is too large for it!

Well done John. Now you have a real classic beautiful lady and the hot bimbo as well!

quote:

Originally posted by John HM:
Just got the last CZ 550 458 win out of Killwell they only have 375 H&H's left.Same as yours with Kevlar as well.Fitted a Leupold 2-7 x 33 that needed a home and Warne rings.I have plenty of projectiles from the work done with the 450 BPE but may be waiting a while for dies and cases.

Now that I have a VX3 1.5 -5 X illum reticle 30mm scope on Warne QD rings, I took the rifle to my friends farm & chronographed some loads.

The Woodleigh 410 gr softs with 96gr AR 2209 (H45350) 98 gr of porbably AR 2213 SC (H4831SC) gave me only 2250 fps. But the remingtonm 400 gr softs with 96gr AR 2209 (H45350) gave 2550 fps. The recoil with the Woodleigh was stiff while the Remington was a bit less.

I shot a few 340g Woodleighs with 102 gr of AR 2209 but the chrony kept showing errors. The recoil was not a lot less than the other loads.

Next visit to the range I am going to do 50 meters and test for groups. I'll use the set trigger to reduce errors.

Oh, and I have paid my deposit for my first African safari .....

The 300 fps difference between the 410 gn and the 400 gn. doesn't make immediate sense.

1. Measure the 410 grain bullet and make sure that the diameter is .416" and not something like .413"

2. If both bullet types measure .416", then there was probably a misreading by the chronograph. You need to confirm the previous figures. Set the chronograph 20 ft (6 meters) away from the muzzle and do not do the test within an hour or two of dawn or sunset. Make sure that there are no leaves or flies or bees around the chrony either.

You should probably get a reading 2450-2550fps for the 410 grain, assuming that the 400 grain reading was correct. Otherwise, you should probably get a reading around 2250-2350fps with the 400 grain, assuming that the 410 grain reading was correct.

The 410 gr Woodleighs were loaded by Custom cartridges in NZ at least 6 years ago. So the powder lot would have been different & primers also. The load weight is not 100% certain as I only had a phone conversation with him & did not really check records - so it is possible that the load was a lighter load.

BUT - the recoil is stiff. I fee that the Hornady recoil is similar but possibly less than the Woodligh.

Bullet diameter is correct .416 for all.

A baseline reference from a trusted source:

http://www.accuratereloading.com/416rigby.html

From Saeed's own load data in a 24"-barreled .416 Rigby,
with 400-grain Hornady RNSP bullet and F215 primer, Norma brass:

H4350 powder:
93.0 gr >>> 2268 fps
95.0 gr >>> 2346 fps
97.0 gr >>> 2413 fps
99.0 gr >>> 2459 fps
101.0 gr >>> 2510 fps
103.0 gr >>> 2543 fps
105.0 gr >>> 2593 fps

There should be very little difference from this with the 410-grain Woodleigh.
So, as 416Tanzan says, something is screwy with either the chronograph data or supposed powder charge data by Nakihunter.

I used to load about 100 grains of H4350 with 350-grain Barnes XFB-Cannelured bullet (obsolete)
for about 2700 fps in a 24"-barreled Ruger No.1, and killed a deer at 342 yards once.

For the 380 to 410 grain bullets of any sort, soft or solid,
105 grains of H4831 (either SC or LC) will give you +2400 fps to +2500 fps.
Yes, lesser pressure and lesser velocity with 105 grains of the slower-burn-rate H4831 than with 105 grains of H4350!!!

Pick the bullet of 380-410 grains weight that shoots best in your rifle with 105 grains of H4831!!!

That is the "John Buhmiller-Jack O'Connor .416 Rigby Memorial Load." They used that powder charge for 400-410-grain bullets.
It has been a very accurate load for me and many other folks.

Disclaimer: Waste some powder and bullets by working up to this load from at least 5% less than the Buhmiller-O'Connor load. You will be amazed at how well your rifle shoots with 105 grains of H4831.

You wont go wrong with your choice. I have the same rifle but with a wooden stock, would prefer the kevlar stock.

I use 410 grain Woodleigh Sn and their excellent Hyrostatic Shock projectiles over 96 grains of AR2209. Both fire to the same POI.

I got some Barnes 400 gr banded solids now - round nosed.

Plenty of options now in my reloading room

Woodleigh 410 gr softs
Woodleigh 340 gr softs
Hornady 400 gr softs (not DGX)
Barnes 350 gr TSX
Speer 350 gr softs
Barnes 400 gr banded solids

Naki--

The most robust bullet in your list is the 350 TSX. It will fly flat and stand up to anything. It would only need a complementary 350 grain flatnosed solid for follow-up buffalo, or ele and hippo should you go after those.

Thanks 416Tanzan

I will practice with them and see which is the most accurate and which I shoot best with fast reloads off hand.

I have not found any 350 gr solids. I am considering importing a few packets of CEB bullets from the US (also for my 9.3X62 which will be my second rifle).

I hope to do some range work this weekend.

quote:

Originally posted by Demonical:
[b]I have a ZKK-602 in .416RM.

What load are you using in your RM? I've got the the Blaser R93 in 416 Rem Mag but shoot the 400gr TSX and Hornady DGX for now. Thinking of going across to the 350gr TSX or the 330gr GSC HV

The new TTSX 350 grain bullet has BC of .444 that is very high and at 2700-2800 it is really a one rifle hunting anything,Kev

quote:

Originally posted by kev5000:
The new TTSX 350 grain bullet has BC of .444 that is very high and at 2700-2800 it is really a one rifle hunting anything,Kev

2800fps with that .416 bullet needs a Rigby case to get enough propulsion. Any yes, it is a one rifle, hunt anything, sort of tool.

I was at the range again today.

I made up a set of shooting sticks. I went to the building supplies store & found the broom handles and dowels were almost as expensive as a set of professional sticks. In the end I bought 3 tomato vine stakes and used some inner tube strips from an old lawn mower tube & I have a perfect set of sticks.

I tries 4 loads - fired a total of 20 rounds

400 gr Hornady RN with 94 gr & 96 gr of AR 2209 (H4350). The chrony was playing up so I just shot off he sticks at 50 meters. Accuracy was good & consistent. I need to practice more and get better control. 2" groups at 50 meters is not good enough. I also shot 4 shots rapid reloads at 30 meters off hand & got 3" group around the bull.

The other loads were potential hunting loads. 350 gr TSX with 102 gr AR 2209 (H4350) & 400 gr Barnes banded solids with 96 gr AR 2209 (H4350).

Off the sticks at 50 meters the accuracy was exceptional - 2 shot touching with both loads. BUT the BIG PROBLEM is that the 350 gr TSX is shooting 4" high while the 400 gr solids are spot on the bull.

I will have to try the 410 gr Woodleighs & see if they group with the solids.

I have also ordered for some CEB bullets from Reloading International. www.reloadinginternational.com . They have been very good to deal with so far.

Naki

We have had our disagreements down in the pit- but I truly want to congratulate you on your first big bore rifle. You are going through a fun time-nothing beats it.

And planning your first safari--congratulations and just soak up the feeling. I went to Africa for the first time last year, and can tell you every moment will be precious .

Again congratulations and Happy Hunting

SSR

Sounds like you are on target.

You can also get some flatnose 350 grain solids to try out. Any .416" solid will penetrate more than you will ever need.

Thanks Sean

I really appreciate that.

quote:

Originally posted by Sean Russell:
Naki

We have had our disagreements down in the pit- but I truly want to congratulate you on your first big bore rifle. You are going through a fun time-nothing beats it.

And planning your first safari--congratulations and just soak up the feeling. I went to Africa for the first time last year, and can tell you every moment will be precious .

Again congratulations and Happy Hunting

SSR

Naki
I have been working away with my loads for the 458 Win. Using the experience gained in regulating the 450 double and shooting up to 40 rounds from the prone position at a time I have 4 different loads that all shoot into a 3" group at 100 yds.

400gr speer
400gr woodleigh ppsn
350 hornady rn
350gr speer hcfn
And the hornady 500gr rnhm factory is right there if I use the first mill dot on the Leupold.
Waiting for some Woodleigh 480gr solids to arrive so I can try them as well.
There is an issue with 100% feeding on some projectiles still and not sure if I just pass on them for DG as they are ok for NZ animals.

I am attaching some photos of what I tried with a new Barnes solid (round nose)


A couple of 400 gr Barnes banded solids.


A round in a case trim die & the nose filed flat


Filed flat nose in the middle. Length reduced by 0.8mm. Not sure about weight.

I am not a skilled machinist & I do not have the right tools so I put a loaded round into a case trim die & filed the nose flat. When I started measuring the various rounds I found slight variations. So this method of flattening the nose will not give uniform results.

I suppose I could take some bullets to a friends and get him to turn them on his hobby lathe. These are 400 gr bullets & so I could convert them into 350gr & shoot with the TSX.

At the moment the 400 gr RN shoots 3 inches below the 350gr TSX at 50 meters - vertically in line.

What do you think?

Excellent work on the round nose.

Have you weighed the bullet?

when you have your friend do the lathe work, make sure that enough of the round nose is removed so that the flat meplat is .27" across, but not over .29". That will give a 65-70% flat surface.

Its frankly incredible: the quality and amount of info kindly sent in by veteran AR memebers to help the rest of us.
WAY TO GO RIP !!!

emron,

Thanks.
In looking back over the thread just now to see what I had done to deserve an "attaboy,"
it looks like we overlooked this:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Thanks guys ...
I now need to find out how to remove the foresight assembly so that I can put on the Gentry barrel band sling stud. I am wondering if I heat the barrel band with a hair drier and slip it on with a spot of epoxy, it would cool down and shrink fit to the barrel. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Wondering if Nakihunter ever got that sorted out?
The CZ foresight assembly is a banded ramp and will come off, with heat and whacking as necessary,
after first removing all removable small parts from the assembly including hood and bead/blade and any fixating/retaining parts
including any screw through the ramp.

Barrel-band sling studs are usually chosen to be a close fit to the barrel diameters where they will fit,
then fine tuned by hammering all around the outside of the band until it shapes and conforms better to any taper
at the final location it slides onto. Solder or epoxy. Either will work, and either can be softened with low heat from a torch.
But if you are not going to hammer-fit and solder and then refinish all the metal,
then might as well do it like you say, Nakihunter.

I leave the barrel-band things to a handy gunsmith like Rusty McGee.
I even let him install the Brockman forend-tip sling stud for me on the CZ Kevlar stocks,
and I much prefer that to cluttering up my barrel with hardware that is detrimental to accuracy,
when using a tight sling as a shooting aid.
This works great for all carrying and shooting-aid functions:









Last pic above shows the filler screw that Rusty shapes to replace the stud that comes standard on the stock.
You will want one of those even if you go the barrel-banded sling stud route.
Pictured above is the first CZ 550 Magnum rebarreled to .375/404 Jeffery Saeed of 2012.
Fluted barrels and barrel-band sling studs do not mix well anyway.
You can still use the standard stud as a bipod base if you are manly enough to shoot prone with that .416 Rigby.

Thanks guys.

RIP I have not done anything about that. I did get the NECG white bead foresight from Wayne at AHR.

I am waiting for Sam to come back from his hunt to pick his brains about the flat nosed solid.

It is nice sunny weather here at 9 am on Sunday. Unfortunately both my pals with farm / range access are away.