Do any of you 411-416 shooters have some measured velocity? If you respond please indicate which 416 you are using.

Just curious how close my 400PDK wildcat gets to your results. My case is a 06 cylinder brass left at 2.65" with minimum taper and a shoulder starting at 2.17" and shoulder dia of .458". I'm able to seat 300-400 gr bullets in the cannelure and fit in a MKX std action. This is my case with a 300 & 400 far right is 357H&H.

400gr Hornady Max velocity I have achieved is 2321 with no pressure sign. I load to 2265.

300gr Hornady Max is 2744 I load to 2675 and still have trouble with the bullets not exiting a hog.

350 Speer Mag Tip. These are 416 bullets that I've resized to .410. Max is 2450 and I load to 2450.

These velocities are from a 24" douglas. How do they compare to other real world numbers.

400 gr

The 416 Ruger will actually clock a full 2,400 FPS with a 400 grain Hornady soft.....

Delivers a little "ouch" as well!

quote:

The 416 Ruger will actually clock a full 2,400 FPS with a 400 grain Hornady soft

Probably a little more than that. My capacity is only 86grs so I know the other cases will yield higher velocities. I simply run out of space. In the 400 I compressed to 110% at max Reducing the velocity still allows the bullet to exit two large hogs standing next to each other. Also less wear and tear on me and the Hoque stock.

quote:

400gr Hornady Max velocity I have achieved is 2321 with no pressure sign.

I'd suspect you're at the 60,000 PSI threshold with that load.

Are you using Win-748?...RL-15?.....or Win-760?

quote:

I'd suspect you're at the 60,000 PSI threshold with that load

Based on Loadtech and what a guy with quickload told me 58-60,000. Varget with the 300s. Varget and RL15 give almost the same velocity with the 400 RL15.

I can't believe you 411 and 416 shooters don't have any velocity numbers.

I think that you are getting 400 @ 2300 is AWESOME on an 06 case

Ramrod:

I shoot a CZ .416 Rigby with a 25 inch barrel. I always try and load my traditional African cartridges in the "Kynoch window". Kynoch specifies a velocity of 2300 fps from a 26 inch barrel with a 410 Woodleigh. I don't have my load data here with me but my recollection was that 96 grains of Reloder 22 with that same bullet gave me at just under 2300 fps and put me right where I needed to be. As you might imagine, in the Rigby, this load produces very, very modest pressures. I just don't see any need to load it any hotter. If I want something flatter shooting, I use 350 grain TSX bullets and IMR 4831.

My 400 H&H clocks 2300/400 grains with the load I like.

My .408 Caliber Hollis fires a 400 grain bullet at it's 55 Cord regulation. 62 Grains of RL-15 over a Federal 215GM in my 450/400 yields 1950 FPS.

My .423 404 Jeffery with 67 Grains of RL-15 will give you approx. 2125 FPS (historical velocities). At that speed in a 10 pound rifle you'll know when you touch one off!

It really ain't about how fast you can go!

416 Rigby with 410gr Woodleighs anywhere from 2350 fps to 2650 fps from a 24" barrel.

416 Rigby with 350gr Speer Magtips 2780 fps from 24" barrel.

416 Rigby with 340gr Woodleigh 2800 fps from 24" barrel.

416 Rigby with 300gr Barnes X Bullet 2680 to 3000 fps from 24" barrel.

I have never chronographed my 416 Taylor. I think I will this spring once it warms up a bit. I shoot 340gr Woodleighs and 350gr Speers in it. The best guess is that these bullets are doing around 2450 to 2500 fps out of it's 24" barrel.

405 Win with 400gr Woodleigh for 2060 fps from a 24" barrel.

405 Win with 300gr Woodleigh for 2450 fps from 24" barrel.

405 Win with 300gr Hornady anywhere from 2220 fps to 2500 fps from 24" barrel.

Hello, some data from my guns,
416 Rigby 350 TSX 2850 fps
416 Rem. 300 BarnesX 2900 fps
416 Rem. 400 Hornady 2450+ fps.

416 Rigby 2383 FPS with 400 Grain Federal factory loads

Thanks guys for letting me know I was playing close to the big guys. I knew I was ahead of the 405 and probably ahead of vintage 450/400 and close to vintage 404. I give up very little capacity to the Taylor but the capacity of the 416Rem, Ruger and Rigby will win every time. I did figure out I combined data for two different 400 gr in the first post. My hunting load for the 400 Hornady is 65grs of Rl 15 for 2256.

I had posted the two bullet results earlier and here is an edited version. I actually hit 2371 with 4895. the last tow loads of 4895 started to show a pressure ring but that was the only indication pressure was up. All my cases have 4 loading and the primers are snug as a bug.

As to 400gr bullets:
I'll call the first bullet Bullet "A". It was a bulk 416 bullet bought at a gun show resized to 410. The length of it was 1.29" the cannelure was such that I couldn't use it and fit in my 3.4" magazine. So I simply set the OAL to 3.38" with no crimp. I'll call the Hornady 400 steel jacket Bullet "B" it was 1.37" long and set in the cannelure it was 3.34" long with a firm crimp. Here are the results using IMR4895, Varget and RL15.
Powder "A" "B"
Grs
4895
60 **** 2188
61 **** 2210
62 **** 2238
63 2144 2292
64 2165 2315
65 2178 2351
66 2197 2371
67 2202 ****
68 2226 ****
69 2239 ****
**** **** ****
Varget **** ****
60 **** 1990
61 **** 2023
62 **** 2064
63 2201 2092
64 2229 2113
65 2251 2158
66 2265 2189
67 2278 ****
68 2295 ****
69 2316 ****
70 2321 ****
**** **** ****
RL15 **** ****
63 2165 2195
64 2194 2229
65 2210 2256
66 2229 2284
67 2253 2316
68 2268
69 2301
70 2312


For my other PDKs I use Norma 280Rem I actually built a 416 version years ago using 280 brass. I got lazy and used 06 cylinder Rem brass. That allows me to us the cannelure and be 3.34 with the 400 Hornady. Some would say that 2.65 is not an 06 or in my case the parent 280. Which is true.

If I take a 280 case slowly open it to 411 I can end up with a case 2.48-2.5" long. Measured one tonight and at 2.5" the gross capacity is 83grs compared to 86 for the 2.65 case. If I seat a bullet to the same oal the net capacity of the 280 brass is 3% greater. So hard as it is to believe I used a longer case and lost net capacity. Guess I could always cut a new cannelure and use 280 cases like I do in its little brothers. But a nice easy 2256 will do me just fine. Plus it look neat.

Now time to take the 380 version out for serious play.

does MTM have any pentration data on his 350 TSX at 2850? I live in a situation where I can't do testing with easy re-supply. I've currently got 350s chrono-d at 2650-2700 in 416 ribgy and know what to do for a batch at 2750fps (safely of course. Most everything in a 416 is safe in pressure.) But as velocity creeps up I would like to know about dependable weight retention and expansion. Shouldn't be a problem, at all, but it would be comforting to hear some real data feedback.

With a load that is used with 400gr bullet my Rem.416 rifle does 2420 FPS.

.416 Rigby with 410 gr Woodleigh at 2425 fps MOA at 100 meters.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
does MTM have any pentration data on his 350 TSX at 2850? I live in a situation where I can't do testing with easy re-supply. I've currently got 350s chrono-d at 2650-2700 in 416 ribgy and know what to do for a batch at 2750fps (safely of course. Most everything in a 416 is safe in pressure.) But as velocity creeps up I would like to know about dependable weight retention and expansion. Shouldn't be a problem, at all, but it would be comforting to hear some real data feedback.

Hello, unfortunatly no actual kills with that load. I packed it a few times Mulie hunting but never had a chance at anything decent. Going from TSX performance in other rounds I'd expect good things.

I get with my 416 Rem. 2420 shooting a 400gr bullet

quote:

Originally posted by jro45:
I get with my 416 Rem. 2420 shooting a 400gr bullet

jro:

The big question is why do you load it so hot? The .416 Rigby made its' reputation with a 410 grain bullet at a very modest 2300 fps from a 26 inch barrel and it was reputed to be one of the finest African cartridges ever. The .404 Jeffery was loaded to an even more modest 2125 fps and it was also regarded to be extraordinarily effective. I confess that I have never understood our American penchant for trying to push our handloads to max pressure/velocity. What's up with that? I load my Rigby with a 410 Woodleigh to a modest 2300 fps at very modest pressure. If I want something a little flatter shooting, I drop down to a 350 grain TSX. You get dramatically less recoil and much better bullet performance if you slow them down a bit.

My 404 Jeff clocks right under 2300 fps with 400 gr Woodies....and it'll knock the pi$$ out of most anything up to elephant......I agree with Mr. Bush....I see no reason to hot rod the big bores....for hunting.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Every man has gotta know his limitations....load em as hot as you can stand em. More velocity is better if bullet is designed for impact velocity and you don't get a scope in the face. The old timers shot lower velocity because it was the limit of technology accross the board at the time.

416 Taylor, 24" bbl, 400 gr Horn 2300 +/- ~25fs. 350 Speer 2500 +/- 25fs, both with RL15 and both will go higher. EZ extract, primers still have rounded edges, no hi pressure signs...why go any higher in fs???? If I needed more I would grab a larger caliber out of the safe.

Your wildcat is an interesting proposition.

416 rem - hornady 400, 2385, but that was my starting and finishing load

416 AR 400gr hornady, 2500 max, 2400 easy

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:

More velocity is better if bullet is designed for impact velocity...

Bull:

I always try to keep my Woodleigh bullets within the recommended impact velocity suggested by Woodleigh. I think that insures almost perfect bullet performance under most circumstances. All bullets, even the mono metals have their limitations. If you drive a TSX too fast, you are almost certain to sheer off some or all of the petals. We just look at it differently but I think that driving everything to max pressure/velocity is inviting bullet failure and generating unnecessary recoil.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:

More velocity is better if bullet is designed for impact velocity...

Bull:

I always try to keep my Woodleigh bullets within the recommended impact velocity suggested by Woodleigh. I think that insures almost perfect bullet performance under most circumstances. All bullets, even the mono metals have their limitations. If you drive a TSX too fast, you are almost certain to sheer off some or all of the petals. We just look at it differently but I think that driving everything to max pressure/velocity is inviting bullet failure and generating unnecessary recoil.

Hi Dave, I suppose I can see underloading rounds for Africa. I hunt here in Canada, nerver really any heat issues. Would I load a 300 mag to 06 speeds hardly, the 416 Rem is in no way overloaded with 400s at over 2400 or with pointy bullets fast enough to give decent trajectory. Not being arguementative just see no reason to loose out in energy or trajectory as long as we're not over pressure.

quote:

Originally posted by MTM:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:

More velocity is better if bullet is designed for impact velocity...

Bull:

I always try to keep my Woodleigh bullets within the recommended impact velocity suggested by Woodleigh. I think that insures almost perfect bullet performance under most circumstances. All bullets, even the mono metals have their limitations. If you drive a TSX too fast, you are almost certain to sheer off some or all of the petals. We just look at it differently but I think that driving everything to max pressure/velocity is inviting bullet failure and generating unnecessary recoil.

Hi Dave, I suppose I can see underloading rounds for Africa. I hunt here in Canada, nerver really any heat issues. Would I load a 300 mag to 06 speeds hardly, the 416 Rem is in no way overloaded with 400s at over 2400 or with pointy bullets fast enough to give decent trajectory. Not being arguementative just see no reason to loose out in energy or trajectory as long as we're not over pressure.

MTM:

I guess I was speaking mainly about the medium and large bores. With my small bores, I also usually work up to the book max. as well. I had a not so good experience with the early Barnes X bullets but have had great luck with the TSX. With the TSX, I usually drop down a bit in bullet weight and then load to near the book max. I think you can drive the TSX bullets a bit faster than a conventional bullet and they will still maintain their integrity but even the TSXs have their limitations. This seems to give the best of all worlds, good velocity, great penetration, and less recoil.

416 Rigby
400 TSX
100gn H-4350
2625 fps
1.25 moa @ 100
2" @50 off sticks w/ irons

Hi Ramrod,
In what ways does your 400PDK differ from the 411 Hawk or the 400 Whelen Impoved?
Great looking cartridge, I think I want one in a CZ 550 FS

quote:

In what ways does your 400PDK differ from the 411 Hawk or the 400 Whelen Impoved?

Phatman,

I would love to tell you that the PDK brings a whole new concept to the table. What I have is minor changes and longer brass. First off many didn’t know that the original 400 Whelen had a .458 shoulder not the .441 that the 35 Whelen had. As to 400Whelen IMP I assume you are talking about a version similar to Michael Petrou’s write up as mentioned on Z-hat.

The shoulder position and angles are each slightly different(.458" 40 deg at 2.17")
however the greatest difference is I leave my case at 2.65” not 2.5” of the Whelen or 2.44” of the Hawk. Capacities I show are PDK 86 measured Whelen 75.5 & Hawk 77.4 . The last two are from the Loadtech data base. That is 11-14% higher gross capacity. If I would shorten my case to the length of the Hawk I calculate a volume of 79. I’ve drawn the shoulder neck area along with the bases of the 300 & 400 Hornady as set in the cannelure in my case.


If you took the Hawk and Whelen and seat the bullets out to my OAL then the net capacity gain of my case is only 2-3%. Like I said above if I used my normal 280 brass and a 3.34" OAL I would gain capacity. However if you try and honor the cannelure the gains from my case are the 11-14%.

In my limited testing using powders in the 4895, varget, RL15 burn rate I’ve never reached a pressure limit it is always volume. Even my maximum load is just starting to show any pressure ring. Both loadtech and Quickload have my max loads under 60,000.

As I’ve stated in some of my other 400PDK threads I’m compressing my loads. I have no clue if Hawk or Michael did and if so how much. In my max loads I drop slowly via 4” tube and from the point the bullet base touches the powder I compress .125”. Compared to a volume dropped quickly with no tube I calculate a max compression of 108%. I simply think the major gain from my case is the result of having 11-15% greater capacity.

You will notice a line call 411Express. When I talked to Fred at Z-hat he said he had built a version of the Hawk with the shoulder moved forward to use the full length of the 2.65” cylinder brass calling it the 411 Express you can see it listed on his available reamer list. He told me he used it in his 411 bolt rifle. I’ve heard that he told others that the express didn’t do much over the Hawk. Loaded to the same OAL I can see that, loaded long I don’t.

At this time I have the only reamer for the 400PDK and I don’t normally loan it out. If I wanted a 400 I would look to the 411Express or if I went 411Hawk I would set it up for a OAL of 3.34” at least. With a .411 bullet each .1” you move the bullet forward you gain 3.34grs of capacity..