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Since the 9.3 x 74R has been suggested as a possible "bear stopper", I'll mention that I've shot three black bears with my 9.3 x 62. The first of those was to catch up with and finish off one that had been wounded by a young "novice". He shot off two legs -- a left front and a right rear, the remaining two were enough for the young bear to try and make its escape through tall grass. I caught up enough to finish it with a shot from behind to its short ribs that also took out three vertebrae. The bullet was a 286 Hornady that continued on into the surrounding terrain. It "stopped" the bear that by then wasn't motoring very fast anyway on its two remaining "wheels". The second was "my bear" (different year). I was in a tree stand at 68 yards from the bait barrel. The bear was facing me in tall grass off to the right side of the barrel. I placed a 286 Partition into its frontal chest. Impact was about 2500 fps/4000 ft-lbs. The bear dropped so quickly, I lost sight of it in the tall grass (same property as the previous one). It didn't reappear. I took my time to get out of the stand and go look for it. My partner (not the young novice), who was over a mile away at another site, radioed to find out if that was my shot he heard. Affirmative. But the bear was not where I shot it. It was at the bottom of the escarpment that was 20 yards behind the bait, and another 20 yards to the bottom. It probably had rolled or tumbled there. Anyway, we managed to retrieve it, field dressed it and hung it for the night (it was dark by then) on the back side of the tree where my stand was located. The next morning we skinned it and prepared it for the butcher. The bullet fell out from the right flank in skinning. It had penetrated 30-inches and was poking through the hide. It retained 211 grains/74%. Yet that 6 ft bear made tracks for at least 20 yards after hit with 4000 ft-lbs from a .366-caliber and SD of .307 (Nosler's number). Usually, 286s are given an SD of .305. Nonetheless, it didn't "stop" the bear! The third bear (two years later on the same private property but a different location), was shot with the same rifle (Tikka T3 Lite) but this time the bullet was a 250gr AccuBond leaving the muzzle at 2714 fps avg. Range was 85 yards to bait barrel, and the bear was partly on top of it. Bullet impact was high in the mid-ribs in a downward direction that took out the heart and made exit between offside front leg and chest. Blood from bait to dead bear at 20 yards distant was like it had been poured from the proverbial bucket! Bear still went 20 yards. No CNS hits with those two bears. I like my 9.3 x 62 and it's my favorite of the mediums. However, the 45-70 in a Marlin (or single-shot) has far superior stopping ability with good 400s at the ranges mentioned, or farther. That, I know from experience on bears of similar size and disposition. Just one example (could be others): a 465gr semi-hardcast leaving the muzzle of my NEF at 1900 fps flattened a 6-foot bear from a frontal hit at the same location as bear No.2. I too lost sight of that one when the rifle was coming out of recoil. But it was DRT where shot. The heart couldn't be recognized, or hardly found. That bullet made exit below the sternum and was never found. It's meplat was .25". I've seen the same sort of thing from my Marlins at 100 yards. Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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I wasn't suggesting that the 9.3x74R is a stopper, although it's every bit as good as the 9.3x62. I was just using it as an example of the prices of double rifles, and the Valmet being the only one that was IMO reasonably priced. I'm in agreement that a "stopper" starts with .458 cal. with .416 close. IMO, the 458 WM or +P 45-70 are the standards that everything else is compared to. I would just as soon have one or the other, or a 416 Ruger, but I have a light 458 WM carbine - bush whacker, not a safari rifle. ************* Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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"Frederick Courtenay Selous, famous old elephant hunter and a splendid writer and naturalist, told of shooting an already wounded elephant with a muzzleloading 4-Bore that in the excitement had been double-loaded by his gunbearer. The double charge knocked Selous flat, temporarily paralyzed his right arm, and threw the gun many feet behind him. It stopped but did not knock down the elephant, who stood there for twenty minutes while the gunbearer massaged Selous’ shoulder. As soon as he had regained sufficient use of his arm, Selous had another shot at the beast (they bred them tough in those days!), but on receiving that ball the elephant just moved off again, and they never found it." https://huntforever.org/2014/12/08/stopping-power/ and- "and why the .458 is by far the most popular stopping rifle in Africa today—they had about the right balance between power, recoil, weight, and quickness of handling for the average man.—Finn Aagaard" | |||
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Also has to do with bullet design and the lead alloy. Those that recommend heavy cast bullets also talk about using a harden bullet with a wide font nose of all most full caliber. A pure lead bullet with a round nose as most black powder bullets were. Doses not have the same capabilities as a harden WFN bullet. When it comes to penetration and killing abilities. Or even worse is a pure lead round ball. Very low SD and penetration. I think that might be what Selous was using in his 4 bore muzzle loader. | |||
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 You mean like these?  .800" meplat and 2000 grains of Lyman#2 dropped in cold water at lowly black powder velocity. I think it's got plenty of stopping power. The one on the right went through about 4' of elephant. Aside from greater penetration, I think the old timers also switched to nitro rounds with jacketed solids due to the much lighter weight to carry all day and the radically reduced recoil. It should be noted that the fabulously wealthy Indian tiger hunting elite who obviously could afford any gun in the world still ordered 4-bore roundball guns as point blank stoppers on thin skinned dangerous game up until almost 1930. They evidently though it had 'enough' penetration and liked the blunt trauma of a large entrance over the small bores, and the weight wasn't an issue from a howdah. Bob DRSS "If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?" "PS. To add a bit of Pappasonian philosophy: this single barrel stuff is just a passing fad. Bolt actions and single shots will fade away as did disco, the hula hoop, and bell-bottomed pants. Doubles will rule the world!" | |||
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No that is not a round ball. | |||
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So you mean like this?  The third from the left in the top row was unhardened just to see if there was any difference. These were recovered from water buffalo. Of course not included were all of the ones that passed through. DRSS "If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?" "PS. To add a bit of Pappasonian philosophy: this single barrel stuff is just a passing fad. Bolt actions and single shots will fade away as did disco, the hula hoop, and bell-bottomed pants. Doubles will rule the world!" | |||
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While all these massively large bores and bullets are interesting, it is highly unlikely that any of them will be hauled around for any length of time in bear country. And any rifle, shotgun or handgun chosen for protection, which is quite a bit different than hunting, need to be portable and reliable Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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The first summer after I retired, I lingered in Alaska through September, then took the ferry to Billingham. I had an overload in my pickup of stuff to haul south, including a small chest freezer filled to the brim with deer, fish, huckleberries and blueberries (about 8 gallons). Yes, it stayed frozen for the whole trip from Juneau to Washington, and I used an inverter while on the road. I also rented a trailer in Washington to share the load. So, I learned to pick berries with one of those scoops with the metal fingers and froze the berries on a sheet pan so they would not stick together, then vacuum sealed them in bags, like little ball bearings. Every day the weather was good enough, I went out berry picking or deer hunting or both. For berry picking, I limited the distance I got from the truck by maybe 30', since I was definitely in the bear's turf, and being in over my head in the bush with practically no visibility and the distraction of the berries. Besides, the sound of that scoop and the shaking of the bushes sounded awfully like some grazing animal. (That occurred to me later.) So, I carried my 458 strapped to my shoulder until it hurt. It was still spooky. Once, I got a premonition, and just walked up the shoulder of the logging road to take a look-see. There was a sow and two cubs walking up the logging road towards me, about fifty yards away. She was acting like I wasn't even there and maintained her pace. So, I got in the truck and opened both doors, (to look larger  ) and honked the horn. She stopped and huffed and shook her head back and forth and made popping sounds. She was not happy. She seemed to think about it for a few seconds, then turned and just walked into the bushes. Then I looked around. Where I was parked was right in the middle of a bear trail. Yes, the old logging road was appropriated by the bears. Off to my left was a deep ravine and the road had a culvert. Off to my right was a bear highway through the forest which led to a salmon creek about 1/4 mile downhill. So, If I had not been lucky and looked when I did, I'm sure that bear would have just walked right between me and my truck. Maybe it would have been okay - maybe not. She just wanted to get to that salmon stream anyway, so I left. After that, I was more careful and studied the area where I picked more. That fall was when I started carrying my 12 gauge more when not deer hunting because it was a little lighter and didn't hurt my shoulder as much. Another anecdote that I just thought to mention, and some may find it interesting, is that before I retired some of my friends used my cabin as storage, along with my stuff. Well, a short barreled (18" I think) Remington 870 showed up when I was going through things. It has the rifle type sights and a smooth bore, no choke tube. It's the marine version - nickeled I believe. No one has ever claimed it. I did ask around to those likely without letting on the exact description of the firearm, but I wasn't too earnest about it. Someone may claim it one day, but it's been several years now. Meanwhile, I'm happy with a free shotgun.It's the one that I leave up there. I think the barrel is too short for Canada anyway. So I have two 870s; the one I take with me and the one there. ************* Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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I agree. I used a 30-06 and 220 partitions on Kodiak because the rifle was light and handy and enough. For protection, which to me means being carried and lived with (including slipping, falling, climbing, wading, getting in and out of every kind of vehicle, setting up camp, etc) way more than ever shot, I still partial to a marlin with a tube full of good bullets and an empty chamber. Safe, light, handy, and enough. DRSS "If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?" "PS. To add a bit of Pappasonian philosophy: this single barrel stuff is just a passing fad. Bolt actions and single shots will fade away as did disco, the hula hoop, and bell-bottomed pants. Doubles will rule the world!" | |||
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In Canada the 18.5 inch barrel is only for Semiautomatic rifles. Leaver, pump or bolt no restrictions if factory length. I no guys that carry 12 inch pump shotguns. In your case if it didn’t come from the factory with that barrel length it wouldn’t be allowed. Welcome to Canada’s insane laws Member NRA, NFA,CSSA,DSC,SCI,AFGA | |||
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The 30-06 with 220 gr bullets was a popular and well respected bear rifle for many decades before the bloom of internet experts. And I will personally guarantee that it is still adequate for a person who can shoot. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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My bear defense rifles are also my normal moose hunting type rifles, with the exception of a couple or so. And even these would be suitable for the terrain that I hunt. The exceptions would be Marlin 45-70's with 20" barrels. At one time, one of these was my preferred hiking rifle. The other is an Interarms Mark X type 458 Winchester. I also have a synthetic stock CZ, AHR enhanced 458 Lott. I currently prefer either my 20" barreled 375 or 416 Rugers when out and about. These 2 rifles are without a doubt my favorite using rifles for my terrain. 2nd choices would be stainless M70's in 375 H&H and 416 Remington. The opening of another can of worms: The majority of the time, I set up camp and hunt alone, unless my wife has time off. When setting up camp and nearly every minute otherwise, my companion is a larger bore handgun of some flavor in a chest holster. The handgun cartridge and type could range from 44, 45, 454, 480, 475; either double or single action versions. Of these, I "think" my favorites are the 45 Colt and 480 Ruger with moderately heavy hard cast flat point loads. I tend to keep my rifle close, but it is not always as accessible as the revolver. I am certainly not over run by bears and particularly large bears. But, sometimes it is surprising what one will have ramble by at the most unexpected time. Edited to add: I still ponder upon a Ruger stainless with a 20" 458 Winchester barrel, with 400 / 450 premium bullets; being yet another near perfect. It never ends ! | |||
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Searching for THE perfect Alaskan rifle is a great Segway to madness. I have spent the past four decades doing so and have a long rack full of them. Each similar, but different. The original pre-64 M-70 338 Winchester Alaskan was a great factory attempt as was the newer 375 Ruger Alaskan. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Yes what do they weigh. | |||
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Or the PERFECT RIFLE period. | |||
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I do not hunt Alaska and in general do not hunt in Griz country. So my post is somewhat useless. However: 18 inches, not stainless, but could be if a guy was building one. 458 WM. Fixed rear aperture.  45-70 on the left. 5500 ft/lbs on the right.  The 5500 ft/lb one on the left with an upended 458 WM case. 458 WM in the center with a hard cast. 5500 ft/lb on the right with an original Barnes. I have 500 gr hard cast for it but have not tried any.  | |||
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Nice rifle Woodhunter. That looks like a handy little thumper! I like the short barrel on guns like that.
P Dog, they're 1500 grains. Those were shot at either 1335 or 1525fps depending on the load. The shot at 0:40 in this vid broke both shoulders and almost exited. I think the old guys were hamstrung by soft bullets. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR-TD6hbXD4 DRSS "If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?" "PS. To add a bit of Pappasonian philosophy: this single barrel stuff is just a passing fad. Bolt actions and single shots will fade away as did disco, the hula hoop, and bell-bottomed pants. Doubles will rule the world!" | |||
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As has been my experience with the little grizzlies in the Bob Marshall, a 45 Super or a 10mm on your hip is better than any rifle that's leaning on a tree 100 feet away. I was lucky, talking to the bear got him to move on, kept my rifle closer after that. It's hard to do when fly fishing. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Even a 9mm or 357 on your hip is a damned sight better than a rifle you can't reach. And with proper bullets and a cool hand they will get the job done Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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I really like fishing in the Bob I caught a lot of trout. I carried my 4in 357 or my TI 41mag after I got that. Because they were back packing/fishing trips I never had carried a rifle there. The Feds like to drop the bad bears they trap in Glacier NP near there. | |||
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Yeah and up by Kintla lake in Glacier. Do not tent camp there. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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To continue the conversation - with a related question. Does anyone have experience with the 1X red dot sights on a big bore rifle? If so, please share your knowledge. I'm considering purchasing one, but know practically nothing about them from personal experience. We are talking about a defense rifle for dangerous game. I know of no more danger than another human out to do harm, and the red dot sights serve in the purpose of defense in that scenario. I don't know why they wouldn't serve on a large bear defense rifle. ************* Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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I have tried them but not to the extent that I felt completely comfortable with them. Mostly due to the fact that while they worked good up close, I didn't feel they were as, or any, quicker than instinctive shooting and they were in no way as accurate as a low power scope at distance Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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So true. A handy handgun is always with you. Similar to my dad's saying about bad weather when out fishing on the salt: "Any Port In A Storm". | |||
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That is what I found also. Plus when it starts to get dark all ones sees is the dot. I prefer a little magnification to a zero power red dot. | |||
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I am in the same boat as Marine Enigam, above. I would sure like to get a 1X red dot for my big bores at close range, but I don't know enough about them. I see there is the scope type and the reflex/open type. Which is best for about 10" from the eye mounting? What are the pro/cons? My eye sight is getting so I can't use the good old iron sights. IHMSA BC Provincial Champion and Perfect 40 Score, Unlimited Category, AAA Class. | |||
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Thanks for the feedback on the red dot. I thought that maybe since they enable one to shoot with both eyes open, thus focusing on the target, the red dot would be very quick. I'm talking about close range defense, and occasional longer shots, maybe up to fifty yards. Also, six mill dot. Another thing is there is no worry about eye relief, nor the recoil shaking loose the guts of a scope. Another thing - I'm over due for cataract surgery in my right eye (shooting eye). My doctor has been putting it off, but it's bad enough so that I shoot left handed now. Any second thoughts? ************* Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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I never thought shining a light in my eyes ever helped me see any better in the dark either ! And with low powered scopes and iron sights I always shoot with both eyes open , just as I do with a red dot. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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That has never worked for me. If I keep both eyes open, then in effect I'm pointing and shooting, like a shotgun. bypassing the sights or scope as though they aren't there. With my limited experience with a red dot sight, the dot is superimposed on the target without even thinking about it. Regarding the darkness. Those red dot sights have intensity adjustments, and there is no reason for the red dot to obscure whatever vision that may otherwise be available, with available light - unless the intensity is not adjusted as needed. The point is that if you can't see the target due to darkness then for sure you can't see iron sights or the reticle of the scope either. ************* Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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I have some experience with that. I have two of the Leupold 30mm 2x7 scopes with the illuminated red dot. My primary use for these scopes has been for shooting hogs from a stand at night. I've used them with the area around a corn feeder illuminated with a low intensity LED and also by using a spotlight from the stand. In both cases the point of the light, reflected back, is so I can see the reticle through the scope as well as the hog. The little red dot is visible, if I'm looking for it, but otherwise transparent. I turn the intensity down to match the light conditions. This use is precision shooting, behind the ear, DRT, and I can take my time about it. I fully expect to hit the target within a two inch circle, at the most. These scopes have worked very well for me for hogs at night from a stand, but they serve all the other normal uses of scopes too. This is not the same thing I'm asking/talking about with the true red dot sight. I don't want to mount one of those scopes on a rifle I use for bear defense. IMO, it would just get in the way and be awkward for such intense and close situation. It could work, set at 2x, but I'm thinking the little, light, red dot sight would be better/quicker. If I was hunting bear, especially a black bear over bait, such a scope would be a great asset. ************* Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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EVERY serious bear incident I have experienced over the past four decades has been under 20 feet, and usually quite a bit closer than that and under such close quarters I have found it quite difficult, usually impossible, to take my eyes off the beast that is trying to tear me apart, in order to focus on the sights. It s usually a matter of Instinctive shooting. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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I have a vortex red dot on my 460BFR I tried shooting a deer with it at about 75 yards one dark rainy evening. Plenty of legal shooting time but not plenty of light. I couldn't make it happen with the dot sight. Would have been an easy kill with any of my scopes with a bit of magnification. I used a RMR on a Glock for some time. I took it off wasn't that big of an advantage to me to keep it Non magnifying Dot sights are interesting but they do have there limitations. | |||
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That's what I'm talking about. I think I may have answered some of my questions: https://www.pewpewtactical.com...-holographic-sights/ I've been conflating the terminology and technology. Red dot sights are not the same as holographic sights. I was saying red dot sights and thinking holographic sights. Now that I know the difference, I'll study more. It looks like EOTech is the primary, if not the only, source. https://www.midwayusa.com/s?us...&userItemsPerPage=48 ************* Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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I used a EOTech a bit was not that impressed. I guess I am just a old fart that find a standard scope works just as well and better for most situations. | |||
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Tend to agree. I have only used the little red dot, a Burris FastFire, on a Glock 40, 10mm Auto. OK for a pistol. Less than an ounce:  The entry-level EOTech I like (Model 512, holo) weighs 11.5 ounces!  The FastFire weighs 0.9 oz and costs half as much. Maybe this, a FastFire on top of a 6.5-ounce Leupold 2.5x20mm:   Yep, that's the ticket. Have my Ultralight scope and let the bear eat it too. Until then, an old jaguar hunter's trick for my SXS Bear-Baller (BB Gun) and dim-light shooting:  I have a roll of bright white duct tape, but medical bandage tape could be used, no splitting of wide tape required. Either duct tape or medical tape (high quality, not paper bandage tape) could be handy for patching your wounds if you survive the bear encounter. A strip of that could also work wonders as an aid to semi-aimed-instinctive point shooting. Wouldn't hurt on a single barrel either. Put a strip on the underside of barrel(s) too, as a carry spot for muzzle-protector tape, to tear off little pieces as you go. Keeps mud and snow and dirt dauber nests out of barrel(s), or reinforce any leaking bandages to save your own blood. Alternatively, wrap a single-barrel, or double-barrel, with a spiral of white duct tape, or bandage tape, multiple layers? Arctic camo!  Rip ... | |||
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That's close to the weight of some of the lightest scopes. https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...g-plex-reticle-matte 11.5 oz, 30mm, $549.99 (example): EOTech EXPS2-0 Holographic Weapon Sight 68 MOA Circle with 1 MOA Dot Reticle Matte CR123 Battery https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...-matte-cr123-battery 11.2 oz, $668.00 Reticle color = green I don't know if the reviews mean much, but some people are happy with it. ************* Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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You can get a red reticle instead. Green will destroy your night vision worse than red. Rip ... | |||
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Red is less expensive too - $569.00: https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...-matte-cr123-battery Save $99 by getting the red reticle. I'm not ready to put that much money out just yet. Just thinking ahead. Besides, I've considered one of these sights for a long time. I went to a lot of trouble to find a picatinny rail that fits the Ruger 77 MKII receiver with no drilling. Now with the 458 SOCOM, the temptation arises again. ************* Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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