Is a .338 enough gun for lion?

In the past I've seen comments that cats are more susceptable to velocity so perhaps this could be added to your question .Which bullet ?

Dave, my answer won't mean much, as I've never taken a Lion. I know the 416 Rigby has been deemed the perfect Lion medicine, but I would think a 250gr Swift A-Frame shot at a soft-skinned Lion at 80 yards or so would be quite lethal. But I would rather err on the side of "too much gun", and use a rifle capable of driving a good-sized bullet through a Lion from any angle.

Took my first lion last month--so I am not an expert. that being said i would have been happy with a 338 WM --where its legal.

In many jurisdictions in Africa 375 H&H or 9.3x63 is minimum for Dangerous game

After reading this http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/1661078081/p/1

I would let the taxidermist repair a larger hole than a 338. A CEB non-con from a 416 or larger gun.

It works.

Here's one of the old 225 grain, Barnes XLC coated X-bullets that we recovered after it had penetrated several feet of lion:

A real big lion would be around 500lbs the 338 regularly kills game much bigger.

Good bullets and shot placement is the key .

I'd consider it almost ideal for the first shot (9.3x64B perfect IMO). That with a medium strength bullet like a Woodleigh or Partition.

.338 Win is just about perfect for lion. I use (and like) my 9,3 with Oryx bullets (very similar to Woodleigh PP) but would have no worries about using a .338.

One of the biggest conundrums with lion is that they are two animals in one. From side on when relaxed they are stupidly easy to kill- many a local farmer has dispatched lion with a 12g with AAA shot. A 30-06 with a fast opening soft point is more than enough gun for such work - my grandfather used a Colt Lightning in .44-40 for ALL his lion controll work.

In such a situation the big bores are seldom the 'right choice'. I have seen too many .416 and up fail to open on lion...then you have a wounded kitty and it turns ugly. The you need a quality bullet like a Swift A frame, TSX, fail Safe etc.

I've seen many mentions that 30/06 and the various 300 mags are good lion choices. Anything you would consider good for a grizzily bear would be good for lion too.

Dave,

I can't imagine a better lion load than a 338 with a 250 NP. Personally I've used the 300 WM with 180 SAF and the 375 WBY with 300 NF for lion because they had the best scopes for low light of the two rifles I had taken on those safaris. Both worked perfectly. I think a lion kills pretty easily. In a recent discussion with two very experienced cat PHs they both said they would be happy to have a client use a 30-06 on lion if they shot it well.

Mark

Based purely on what I've read and my experiences killing other predators, I'd say yes. After all, people regularly use the .338 WM on coastal brown bears, which can be more than twice the size of a lion, and almost as dangerous if things go wrong.

I was just curious about the Bear/Lion thing:

Next up: Lion versus bear. 19 century Californians staged well-documented animal fights, including those between lions and bears. The result: while lions would bravely charge at grizzlies, bears would smack them to their death using giant paws as a 200 pound club. In fairness, lions weigh a lot less than bears, but so do tigers

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Is a .338 enough gun for lion?

Dave

I could not stand it any longer, looking at some of the responses to your question!

I know, THAT YOU KNOW, where I stand on this! LOL.................

Your question is a good one to ponder.

Of course a 338 with a good bullet will kill a lion! Hell, you can kill things with a lot of things, I have a 223 bullet here I can kill a lion with, but that don't mean thats the best tool in
the shed to work with! I have even heard you could kill a lion with a 375!

Ya'll do know that these 400-500 lb kitty cats have at least 9 lives, and if you don't snuff all 9 out, then these things can hurt you?

You can use these Rat Guns and calibers on lion if you want to, fine with me. I doubt I will ever go on another lion hunt, purposely after lion as my number one goal, but should I ever do so I want a hell of a lot more caliber along for the ride. And, as important as caliber, is the bullet of choice. A bullet that produces incredible trauma, massive destruction, and more than enough penetration from broadside to frontal on that most important first shot.

I have only shot 3 lions, all three back more than a decade ago, all three with a 458 Winchester, 400 Swift A at 2350 fps. Hammered the hell out of all three, DRT, within feet of where they stood.

Today if I were going on this quest specific for lion, I would use my 500 MDM, 335 gr BBW#13 NonCon at 2900 fps, and destroy the damned thing on the spot. I don't want to "Kill" a lion, I want to put his dick in the dirt, on the spot, never move again, and destroy and snuff all 9 lives out at once. These things can bite you, and bite you very quickly, and it will hurt a lot, no rat calibers for me and lion.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Esskay:

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

+1

Now Micheal, really pal, you are amongst friends here. No need to mince your words...let your real feelings out. We are here to support you.

(I snorted out loud laughing in the office when I read the "DRT, dick in the dirt..." line )

quote:

Originally posted by BwanaCole:

quote:

Originally posted by Esskay:

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

+1

Now Micheal, really pal, you are amongst friends here. No need to mince your words...let your real feelings out. We are here to support you.

(I snorted out loud laughing in the office when I read the "DRT, dick in the dirt..." line )

+3
Yes, use something bigger than a .223.

Yes, it's a perfect lion gun. A .300 Win Mag works great, too.

quote:

Originally posted by sandyhunter:
Yes, it's a perfect lion gun. A .300 Win Mag works great, too.

It works great until he moves at the shot and you then have a very pissed off and wounded Lion. If you have never seen a wounded Lion come, you have no idea of what you're up against. Watch the video of my friend PH Peter Chipman get hit by a Lion his client wounded. Count the shots and the seconds it takes to cover 50 yards.

I used a .458Lott on Lion (approximately 550 lbs. and #11 largest Lion taken at the time) and would never go for another with anything less than a .416.

I think endorsing these smaller (and illegal) calibers for Lion are ill advised and may result in someone being injured or killed. They work very well on Leopard but not so much on Lion. As Michael458 says, those big kitties hurt a lot when they bite!

quote:

Now Micheal, really pal, you are amongst friends here. No need to mince your words...let your real feelings out. We are here to support you.

BwanaCole

Ever know me to be any other way? HEH........... I am "What you See, is What You Get" sorta chap!

Very happy it brought a tiny bright moment in your day, and RIP, Buffalo, and Esskay as well! Good fun!

These little discussions can be lots of fun, if someone don't get their nose out of joint, and can be very educational at times as well

Man, amongst shooters, lots of different opinions, no doubt about it. As we can see here. Many have compared lions and bears. Well, I have seen both up real close, and both can be damned intimidating. My first big brownie damn near walked over top of me, I had a 338 Winchester at the time, and I tell you right this damned minute and as he came closer and closer, I wished to god I would have had a BIGGER GUN! While one round, 275 Swift A frame, broke that bear down on the spot, the only movement he did was a gasp that just happened to touch my boot, talk about jumping backwards!!!!! Other than that, the 338 and big Swift did fine! My next brownie hunt I was carrying a 50 B&M, the next one, a 50 B&M and a 458 B&M! HEH HEH............. Bears will bite you too. But I am far more intimidated by lion up close, than bears!

I agree with Lionhunter on this, a small bore in a bad situation could get people hurt quickly. Go big on ole kitty, snuff him out quickly, don't give him a chance, or her either, momma kitty ain't no "P----Y"--I better not say that! Big Holes, makes everyone safer.

Enjoy!
Michael

For the fucking hell out of me, I will never understand the rationale behind the search for the smallest calibre that one can use to kill such and such animal.

For me the rationale is simple and always been the same: Use an appropriate bullet in the biggest calibre that you can afford and what you can handle.

Only a spineless whimp would franticly search for the smallest possible calibre to kill a large animal.

In a holding pan a single shot from .22 at two feet will kill the largest buff.

In hunting conditions I don't want just to kill an animal. I want to stop it and incapacitate it even with a shot that is not 100% perfect.

Pyzda

Having seen video of pissed off lions fighting back I would want something that starts with a 4 and high velocity.

As most know, I just took my first lion with a 458 SS 295 NC.

The bullet did not expand, theory is due to hitting a stem or branch and losing stability.
Still took the lion in the shoulder and gave complete penetration exiting mid ribs -took out top of lung on way through.

Lion made it about 100-120 meters and died-

Moral-Even with unforeseen circumstances the large caliber still did its job with a one shot kill.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Having seen video of pissed off lions fighting back I would want something that starts with a 4 and high velocity.

Never have hunted lion, but was thinking my 500 Jeffery shooting a .535g Woodleigh soft point at 2450 fps would be comforting in my hands while tracking him in the long grass.

Also, never shot a Lion, but my .338 has knocked the snot of of several bears lion size or better. I have shot it alot using it on many hunts in the USA. It shoot it very well.
I see little difference between a .338wm with a 300 grain Woodleigh and a .375 H+H with a 300 grain bullet.
That said I do own several rifles that start with 4 and 5.

In a 10.75x68, a 350gn bullet at 2350 would
prob be better than a 400gn at 2200 I would think?

A 350gn mono metal bullet preferred over a Woodleigh
since it would be longer for weight?

Michael, is there a noncon in .423 & 350gn available?

Big cats give me the 'willys' more than anything else.

I haven't played with one yet, but seeing how fast they
are & such plus how tough when hurt & pissed off, makes
me more nervous than any other critter.

Not that Ele & Buff would give me the shivers.

Just something about big cats! Whew!

Here Kitty Kitty! Lol!

Cheers, Allen

Allan,

There are two CEB NonCons available in the .423 caliber; a 325gr HP NonCon that is paired with a 350gr FN Solid and a 375gr HP NonCon that is paired with a 400gr FN Solid. All are listed on the CEB website.

For your 10.75x68 you'd want to use the 325gr HP NonCon.

Cool, thanks Jim.

I'm chambering it for a 3.34 COL, can get a little
more powder room.

Do you know the SD of the 325gn HP & 350gn FN?

Cheers, Allen

The SDs are .259 and .279 respectively. If I recollect correctly, the length from the upper seating groove to the meplat is 0.776" in length for both bullets so they'll work perfectly in your longer COAL rifle.

I have it on very good authority that a 9.3X74R Double shooting CEB Non-Cons does a very nice job of dispatching a very large male lion in the 500lb range. Quite a few petals can be expected to be recovered as well!!



There may be some video proof of this coming soon!!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I have it on very good authority that a 9.3X74R Double shooting CEB Non-Cons does a very nice job of dispatching a very large male lion in the 500lb range. Quite a few petals can be expected to be recovered as well!!



There may be some video proof of this coming soon!!

I thought it was getting time for you to be back in the world!!!!!!

Well, sounds like you are just blowing my small bore on lion all to hell, literally! HEH HEH...

I will blame this on that "Bullet" you are using! One that seems to "enhance" things in all calibers I have shot thus far, including 9.3. But most don't believe that, at least until they try it anyway!

We are glad you seemed to have returned safely, and from the sound of it, rather successfully as well.

We will be waiting to hear more of this great adventure!

Michael

Welcome home, Todd.

Awaiting more definitive information once you recover.

A little off topic but do lions tree like cougars and bears? Do people hunt them (with dogs) like that in Africa?

quote:

Originally posted by Hammell:
A little off topic but do lions tree like cougars and bears? Do people hunt them (with dogs) like that in Africa?

No

Given that most lion are shot from a blind, and are relaxed and stationary as Ganyana notes, I would certainly go after one with a .338. That said, I would much prefer a 9,3 double with a quick detach low-power scope if stalking it. Same general principle with Leopard...a .30 cal or even 7mm is fine from a blind but on the follow-up I might feel a bit undergunned with such a weapon.

A Lion is a magnificent animal and DESERVES to be hunted with the BIGGEST BORE you can possibly carry. No puny .338 is worthy and using it casts doubt on the intelligence and values of the hunter. Do you think our president, mighty hunter that he is and master of economics would condescend to hunt Lion with a Meer .338? Nuff said!-Rob

I'm getting more & more excited about my 10.75x68
now that I learned about the BBW #13 NonCon HP
.423 325gn @ 2450fps plus!

That will be comforting to be carrying in Cat country!

Allen

Can't you wound a lion with a badly placed 458 as well as a 338? Shot placement is most important I would say. And the PH is gonna have a 500 nitro to back you up right?

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:

quote:

Originally posted by sandyhunter:
Yes, it's a perfect lion gun. A .300 Win Mag works great, too.

It works great until he moves at the shot and you then have a very pissed off and wounded Lion. If you have never seen a wounded Lion come, you have no idea of what you're up against. Watch the video of my friend PH Peter Chipman get hit by a Lion his client wounded. Count the shots and the seconds it takes to cover 50 yards.

I used a .458Lott on Lion (approximately 550 lbs. and #11 largest Lion taken at the time) and would never go for another with anything less than a .416.

I think endorsing these smaller (and illegal) calibers for Lion are ill advised and may result in someone being injured or killed. They work very well on Leopard but not so much on Lion. As Michael458 says, those big kitties hurt a lot when they bite!

A 338 wouldn't be my first choice but shooting from a blind and using good bullets I would use a 338. Following up a wounded lion? I think I'd want a 470 double or the like.