I was following another thread on re barrel options for the Brno 602 and hubel458 reply to consider the 585HE. Interesting proposition. I read a thread on that 585, but cannot find it today. So, might as well ask a specific question here.

I can purchase a used CZ550 Safari in 505 Gibbs. its been sitting on a shelf for a year at $2k. I think it could be had for less.

Could this gun be re barreled to 585 with NO other work? Same stock, magazine and mercury reducers. Or perhaps bore the 505 bbl to 577 and re chamber that? With a good result? Something that will hold together and be manageable with 750gr at 2100fps. Not for Africa, just for fun.

Comments or suggestions? Good gunsmith? This is new territory for me. I dont want too learn the hard way.

good choice, but there is a better option. MRC is getting ready to ship their new PH actions. They are sized around the 505 case. You can probably get a very nice piece of wood, and have Ed Hubel package it for you. CZ's in 505 are a rarity, I would not waste one.
Do a search for Ed.

Rich
Buff Killer

Fourbore- Do the math. You need .120 each side of the muzzel hole or .825 to safely rebore the CZ barrel. Does the CZ barrel make that? Any deep holes for sights/ramps etc that will get to close to the .585 bore with the CZ 505 barrel? You had better have .100 on these guys. If so a rebore is out of the question. It will undoubtably need rail and/or ramp work on the action at a minimum. Ed knows more than I about this conversion, but I doubt its simple plug and play.
AHR might build a complete gun for 3-4K and you would be sure to not wind up with a disaster like so many other guys here have had. If Ed makes the reamer available, thats your best bet. Trying to go cheap on big bores is a sure recipe for big problems. Your gonna pay now or latter, but your still gonna pay.-Rob

ok, Rod. I will assume this is, at best, a risky idea. I can wait. Later go for a proper ground up build. I did go ahead and get quote from AHR for bare bones at $5. The AHR work looks to be a big step up from CZ shop. Generally in life you get what you pay for. Then all I want is bread and butter CZ quality, or lack there off. I don't need a safari ready gun, just a fun gun.

Things can change in a couple years. Maybe more options. I never seriously dreamed Hornady or CZ would be offering the products they do at the prices today!

Hmmm..... maybe I should call the CZ custom shop?

don't waste your money starting with a gibbs . that's about 1500 too much starting point.

But, you know what, the gibbs has nearly the same potential for mayhem as the 577 BME, as the BME case is a GIBBS

The 585 HUbel is a lengthened 577 BME, meant for the PH action, NOT the cz action, even if it will fit, with mods

If you want a boomer, get the gibbs for 2 k, and run with that awhile

I already have a pair of CZ550. An American in 458Lott and a Classic in 505. I have had some issues with both but at the same time gain an appreciation for the product. My big issue may have been some bad ammo. I am sure the 505 could be reloaded to extreme power levels. I would like to have a gun too approximate the old 577 H&H, both bore size and ballistics. No muzzle breaks, ever. Just to show off. For fun.

THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT, IF NOT FOR THIS FORUM I WOULD BE SATISFIED FOR LIFE WITH THE 505!

I prefer the 577BME over the 585HE because I only want 2100 fps with 750 gr bullets. And the BME is physically very close to being a belted 577H&H. It should be easier to load with appropriate powder space for my plans. I could almost claim some historical connection or lineage to the H&H. On the other hand, I figure the longer 585 chamber would not hurt? It was claimed to easily fit the CZ, if not then screw it.

I wonder, is there any hope for one of these really big boomers (550-1000) to gain (factory loaded)popular acceptance. You no sooner finish reading about some 577 or 585, then there is a new 600. Only to be followed by 700 and 900. The overkill/trex mentality makes it unlikely that anything will ever be big enough. Can a newbie speak like that?

I think names matter and 577 BME gets it just right, or "belted express". Simple.

Three opinions all say build it new. Agreed.

it goes
585 nyati
577 trex
600 OK
550 magnum
550 express
577 BME
12ga FH

the 550 magnum is a wicked cool choice

The 585HE or BHE has the dies and reamers going
and some cases.It is better case than shorter BME
one due to proper sidewall taper.And still uses
505 head size/length.. Shorter one has only .011"
taper(total both sides), while 585HE has.027".
That makes shooting and extracting much easier
and definatly makes resizing easier as I found when
making cases. Smaller one had to push out of die
from top on first couple sizings for forming.
Any gun that fits 505 can do 585HE as pic shows.
I have it in Ruger77, Enfield, and BBK Ultramag,
and will put it in a Ruger #1 later, when
I find action and in a few weeks in a NEF.
And specs are setting at Jamison for brass run
when a bunch of us want 5-10,000 of them built.Ed

Ed,
there's no appreciable improvement from .01 taper and .03. I generally do .01, by default, and with dies, there is no real gain. Please, really, don't add misinformation on this stuff. Parker Ackely proved, time and time again, MINIMUM body taper creates less issues. "Proper" taper is an opinion, actually, a flavor, not an opinion. a .002 taper extracts JUST FINE, and there is NO advantage to .027 vs .011 .. none, nil, nada, zip, nuttin and nul. That's a red herring.

. At the size of these cases, there's no real gain between them and at SANE pressures, the ammount of taper isn't an issue.

Man, 10,000 cases in one order is HUGE- wish you the best of luck with that.

The 577 BME does have minimal taper like the Capstick. The only other option I thought of was to take the expensive 577 cases, machine in a 640 rim/extractor groove, add a belt for a .635" casehead and with the .660" actual casehead becomes the belt diameter you will have more taper but the costs go way up for an aditional 10 thou in taper. The interesting thing is it is an actual belted 577 case but imho the Gibbs brass is better suited for the higher preasure loads and alredy has the rim. extractor groove. It would be better to make a whole new case but I do like the idea of using existing Gibbs brass. Redoing the 577 NE case would be the 577 Belted Rimless Nitro Express in the propper fashion or 577 BRNE or 577 Rimless. I figured with a long neck about .75" and ghost shoulder the taper would be 12.5 thou each side for about 2" of case body which is not bad but like I said it would be cost prohibitive for minimal ROI.

By far the cheapest way to a serious big bore is the 12GaFH built on a rifled NEF ultra slug.You will be the most talked about guy on the Range when they hear it go off! 1100gr bullet at 1750FPS is 8000ft-lbs of energy and the total cost including the gun, reloading dies and bullets cast or machined is under $1000.Yes cases cost about the same as .600NE cases, but they last forever and the more folks who join in the better chance we have to get a major manufacturer to make high pressure brass cases.! If you dont want humungous power, shoot 3" sabots. The NEF pkg is really starting to come together with at least 6 of them out there right now and we know it works and is safe. My NEF has seen about 400 rds now and is still as tight as when it was new. I find it to be a ball and its always in the car with me when I go to the range. Really fun to shoot and hits like the hammer of THOR! Accuracy is at least as good as my 505 gibbs, .600 OK at the ranges these guns are meant for. I'd take it to Africa for Buff or ELE any time the opportunity presents itself too!
Boomie- Nice case design, but do you have any idea what it would take to re-machine .577NE cases like that? I made the first .600OK brass cases myself from bar stock and that had the advantage of being able to turn the outside first. Doing that on a finished case is extremely difficult manual only work that would be totally cost prohibitive. How much wall thickness is left once the .577 case is turned down. You need at least 0.10. You sure you wont wind up with a paper thin case? I did alot of case turning on the .577 NYATI brass years ago and the NYATI is just the .577NE with the rim turned off and a extractor groove added. I ruined 3/4 cases trying to turn them down to fit my chamber as the cases were too thin. Eventually deceided that was a very bad idea and created the .600 OK case.-Rob

I hate to let this go until I hear from ed.

If the 505 Gibbs can be souped up to more or less the power levels of the 577NE. Then it would seem reasonable that a 505 Gibbs could be re barreled to a BME or 585HE either with loads kept down to 577NE. I thought this was the basic premise of these two cartridges. Ok, maybe with some feed work. But otherwise plug and play? Again, why not? The current CZ Gibbs have dual cross bolts and mercury reducers. I don't think the gun would fall apart.

Can a 585HE fire 577BME in the same way a Lott will accept WinMag loads? This talk about body taper makes me think not. If I cut 2/10 off the HE, then apparently I don't have a BME. I just have a short HE. Thats fine too, I guess... Or then the sizing dies would not work, would they.

One has a belt to headspace off of and the other a shoulder. Not usually a interchangeable combo. The HE is far more practical. PLUG and Play. Good luck grasshopper!- Rob

This the 577 BME, it also has a belt:



The gibbs head (base) is 0.640. What are these two belt diameters? Different?

OK, let's discuss case side tapers and Ackley's work and my testing..
To compare case side tapers I figure how much length of the taper
is used to change the diameter .001" . That is taking in the taper of
both sides. Example of couple tapers is BMG case takes .032" of taper
length for .001" diameter change. A taper pin reamer is .048".

Ackley is famous for 30-30 and 30-06 work. Let's compare what he did.
An original 30-30 is .069" of taper length for .001" diameter change.
A 30-30 Ackley improved is .085"
A 30-06 Ackley Improved is .095"

A Lott is .077" -- A 460 Wea is .095"

MY 585HE is .110"-----The shorter 505 based BME is much longer..253",
to much I feel for extraction and. resizing with higher pressures.
Ackley has shown us and I agree that tapers in range running from the
Lott up to about mine is what he made as his proper tapers, or what is called
his minimum tapers. Not the extremes,. Which if you get a rust spot or little
dust.at higher pressures you can get hangups, and beating on bolt
handles don't get it..A lot of guys do cases in the range of a 1/4 to a full inch
of taper length for each .001" diameter change, but then load lighter than
old blackpowder cases, and get by, but it isn't dependable when as you
get to modern high pressures, or heat raises pressures sky high..
Even 600 OK isn't as extreme as some at .152" taper length per
.001" change as measured on case here.
I know I have the best, reliable, taper and will prove it in
few weeks by extracting high pressure(45-60k) loads from NEF.

As far as cases I am geared and set up for making enough of 585HE
cases to get bunch of guys started when PH is out..
I had my 585 Belted long case years ago and will stay with it.
As far as a case run about 30% down, on large orders
gets it going.Like 10 guys buying 200 cases each for 3 bucks
a case,more than enough money to get a 5000 run going.Ed.

Man, what I would give for two drawings right now.

Ed, with all your experience with the 585, do you think I can do a simple bbl swap to make a 585 on a CZ550 chambered for the 505 gibbs?

A bbl swap and smith working feed rails as you are
going from bottleneck case to straight case.
Bolt face same.Ed

Thanks ed. I may give it a try.

Let me ask about the taper. it sounds like you are proposing the BME is too straight?

If they both start with .640 head/belt diameter and taper down to hold a 585 bullet, then I would expect the BME would have more taper, not less. And if we have a hypothetical 24 inch long super HE then that would be less taper. So a longer case that start and stop with the same diameter as the shorter one should have less taper.

Can I have some actual numbers on these two?

Ed,
you are overstating the taper of the lott, and PURPOSELY hiding numbers. PO Ackley would laugh, OUT LOUD, about a monster case having more taper than required.

Ackley invented the 458 ACKLEY -- not the lott, and it has .01 taper.

the Lott, come on Ed.. back into those numbers
.510 base (not belt of .532, taper doesn't mean CRAP on the belt)
.510 base.
-.458 Bullet
=.052
-.030 case wall
=.022 for the lott

the ackley is HALF that, or .010

The capstick
.510 -.505 (bullet and case) or .005 taper.

"Proper" taper is an opinion, and a rather shallow excuse to poopooh anothers cartridge.


Just be clear on your rationale. Its GREAT to be a proponant of your own rounds, but don't put down someone else's work to "better" yours. That's just a cheap shot.
j
For whatit's worth, I put the first .585 bullet in jamison straight gibbs cases, while talking to Neal .. and then Called Boomy to tell him all about it. I thought it was way too much work to do it with a belt and passed on it.

FWiW, the 45 ACP has THREE thou, .003, taper...
and lord knows it don't feed in anything, as the taper is too little.
I mean, the 45 auto, the grease gun, and the thompson, the Uzi even (yes, it was done in 45) all JUST DON'T FEED due to too little taper..

Jeff what is the story, do the BME and 585HE have different diameters just forward of the belt? They must end up the same at the bullet end.

Now, I am at a bit of a loss. Members of this forum have developed wildcat ctgs. To be specific 577 BME and 585 HE. Where are the specs? What is the secret? Is one expected to order brass and reloading dies, and not have the specs to measure his loads against? Just blindly borrow a chamber reamer and not understand the required chamber dimensions?

No paperwork?

fourbore,

welcome to "Turf Wars, 2009".

The best place for drawings is Dave Manson. He cut both reamers. The basic difference is:
Boomie wanted the original .577 NE 3", but rimless for bolt guns. After I got Dave to cut reamers, Ed decided he did not want the hassle of having to trim .22" off of formed cases. The full length dog is Ed's 585HE. The 3" version is the .577BME. Ed's version has one advantage, CH4D has already gotten with Dave and made several sets of reloading dies. You can use them for the 3" version. Ed is set up to form the belt, but is only doing FL cases for now (585HE). You would have to buy formed cases from Ed and trim them to get the 577BME.
Clear as mud, right?

Rich
Buff Killer

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
Jeff what is the story, do the BME and 585HE have different diameters just forward of the belt? They must end up the same at the bullet end.

They CAN wind up at the same, if straightly tapered, but dont, as the diameter of the shoulder varies, which basically is the crux of the discussion. Ed has case drawings on ammoguide, if you want to see his version.

Rich,
Turf wars is an entire misnomer, the discussion is about Intellectual Honesty. Bad mouthing Boomy's design as "too little taper" is utter BS, and we all know it. Ed made a longer case, GREAT, own it, promote it, beat the drum about it, but DON'T poopoo boomie's concept as being inferior over BS reasons. That's disingenuous.

I am not badmouthing boomie, just myself. I made both cases.
I'm kicking myself for getting off track from my
original design, using bommies idea to make from Gibbs
cases. Stupidity is me. Then it dawned on me that years of
work with belted 585 case with my name and ideas, was
going to drop by the wayside , I stopped and kicked myself.
If shorter case would would of been any other design than
belted, or if real short(like 2.5")then I wouldn't care.


I had my long 585 years ago from Nyati cases,
made first in 99 and showed to Bruce, with other
cases(458,510, 700) I made, at Shot Show Atlanta.It has
.654" belt, .634" base ahead of belt and .607" mouth.
My belt .010" per side. Taper .027"


Short BME one .634" belt, .619" base, and .607" mouth.
Belt .008" per side. Taper .011" .

My case can't be swaged down to small one.My dies only
does 585HE as dimensions above show. You can shorten
my case and fire in my chamber, and shorten my case
and size with my dies, but it won't be smaller
diameter like smaller case made from 505..I also got good
Nyati basic brass, the only perfect Nyati brass
ever made, that makes a case that is heavier radius
in the corner than shorter one from 505 cases.
It is just better in all ways.For all types of guns.
Bolts and Like Ruger #1. The #1 extracts rimless cases
just as well as rimmed. I'll can get a pic of both
sectioned showing corners, if you want.

I had Manson make reamers to my prints.
I had CH4D make dies to my prints. Both work
perfect with 60k loads in Enfield, Ruger, etc.

jeffe- I just used Lott and WEA figures for comparison and
I don't use belt when figuring taper.Like on the Lott
.513" base ahead of belt, .480" mouth, subtract gives
.033" taper, divided into the 2.58" length of the sides
gives .077" of taper length per .001" diameter change.
The 450 Ackley you mention with .513" base, .500" shoulder
and 2.14" taper length figures out to .164", about
like the OK case I have here.
Jeffe- now dies for 585HE around, 5 reamers, some cases,
3 guns done here and soon to be 3 more here of different
designs to show possibilities, would getting a big run
of cases give it credence.......Ed


Oh one of my collector friends is selling single
sample ones on Auctionarms, and my 700s also....

Thank you ed. Now I understand the difference.

Good luck with CZ project. Hope you can
work price down. You can get a CZ at
Bud's Gunshop for 969 bucks, in 416 Rigby
and change boltface, Magazine.All they are
doing with 505 is charging outlandish prices.
You could get a PH cheaper and guys are
ready to make stocks for them also.
There are different ways. If you decide on
my 585 I'll loan reamer, you buy dies,I'll
give you a few cases to get you started.
I am working on deal to get funds to start
a big run of cases.If guys doing it pledge
with bucks to get cases it will go quicker.Ed

ED-Im a little confused. Are you swaging down .585 Nyati brass to form a belted Nyati as well as well as swaging down the 505 Gibbs case to form a belt? Whats the difference in Water capacity between the 585HE and the .577BME? What do sectioned cases look like above and b elow the belt? I'm curious.-Rob

Yes both made by starting a belt step on my
case spinner, then swaging rest of way for shape.
I don't do it all with tons of swaging pressure
as that crimps corners and might make crack
or weakness in corners to blowout, like what happened
with the creased cases of the 700 belted deal that
blew up one of the big double bolt rifles years ago.

My fired, resized 585HE holds over 205 gr H2O.
Shorter BME holds 180gr H2O

My 585 is in pic, on left. That one is from Nyati case with slightly
offset primer I made years ago. Newer perfect ones have similiar
strong corners but primer is centered.Bruce
finally got his machines fixed.

The BME cases made from 505 basic brass have
less in the corner an sharp inside corner.
I'll get pic of both. And 585 HE cases take
70k loads and weight of the bolt pulls them out.Ed

Ed- Thanks. I see now what you have done. What does Jamison want to make a thousand cases? -Rob

For a thousand it would take 5 grand as
2000 of it is for tooling, so he suggested,
and I agreed, that 5,000 be better to get cost of
tooling and dies spread over more cases and cases
then about 3 bucks each. And they said if I could get
say 6 grand down he'd get tools and start a
full 5000 run. Which is better than 5000 bucks for 1000
cases only, when he is willing to make much bigger run
for similiar amount as a down pmt.
Which is why I said 10 guys pledging money for 200 cases
each at 3 bucks per case would get run started. Only reason
they could go with down pmt, is huge supply base cups on hand.
This was last summer, by phonr and written quote..I'll call
and check with him again, as it is getting close to
time for PHs to show up and guys start building.Ed

Ed,
Have you talked to jamison in the last 6 months to verify those pricing? There has been a change in ownership.

Jeffe- Thanks for info. I think I talked to
them at end of Aug. I'll call for sure now.Ed

ED- Holy Crap! Thats expensive. Did you ever ask Dieter Horneber what he'd charge? I had the same kind of "offer" from Bruce Bertram and gratiously declined his generosity. Dieter made .600Ok cases for $3 each and brass has come way down in price lately. Make sure they are not just passing along the brass costs they payed 6 months ago.-Rob

I talked to them today. Marc still there.
Says price quoted is still good, $3 each.
Last year he thought brass was going up more,
so his quote good only couple months at the time.
But brass leveled off so he will keep it the same.
But I've been quoted much more than that, so
3 bucks for case that most will load moderate and
last 25 or more firings and if loaded to 55-60k, last a
dozen or more firings, is a great deal.
There are many smaller, rarer cases out there that sell
for up to twice that. These cases for a new belted head size
with brass and tool/dies/headers needed, for 3 bucks
is a good deal. Others are selling the OK brass for 5 bucks.
I see Nyati, SSK, 577NE,600NE, etc for more than my quote.
Sometimes twice as much. So he's in the ballpark.Ed

I want to follow up with my plans. I went back and looked at the $2000 used CZ550 in 505 gibbs. It was an older gun with NO cross bolts. These guns have a pretty poor reputation and would not be a wise choice to drop and even bigger bbl without stock work. That with other work and warnings already mentioned.

I think these early guns may even have cost less too. I have seen a few online dealers listing American 550 as if they were classic 550's.

This example is not one of those like new guns. It is pretty well skuffed and dinged up like a real worker. Apparently it held together fine for the last owner. I took a pass.

One last question if Ed is listening, where can I get one loaded round of 585HE just for inspiration as I save my pennies.

And a suggestion, also for Ed. It seems CZ has a custom shop that will build guns to order. Given reamer and midway brass availability, the 585HE would be a natural for those guys to build a limited run on the CZ550.

PM or email me your address and I'll mail you a case with
slug crimped in it.
CZ Custon doing it-- great idea. If CZ would do my case
in good heavy stocked cross-bolted guns, I will
furnish their Custom Shop with a reamer. I got a few.
Be nice if a big name would do that. If a bunch of guys
could talk CZ into that, then we all could get
together to get the run of cases going quicker. Ed