The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 20" barrel for a .375 h&hGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Ok experts, I’m thinking about a 20†barrel for a Win 70 Safari Classic in 375 h&h. Do you think the short barrel would have much of an effect on ballistics? The rifle would be used for North American game, such as Bears (mostly black, maybe a rare brownie) and elk. Has anyone done this? If so, how is the balance? Improved? -eric " . . . a gun is better worn and with bloom off---So is a saddle---People too by God." -EH | ||
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It might be a tad loud.....but I'm a believer in short and light....20" wouldn't bother me at all and the velocity loss would be about 150'/sec from a 26" barrel. The .375 has it to loose IMO and I would not hesitate to use the shorter barrel if that was what tripped my trigger. We get far too worried about the trickle of loss and forget the number one factor.....the hunter....treat the hunter right. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Pierre van Tonder mostly packs an old pre 64 M-70, low comb, heavy barrel, in .375 and read Palmers reports of its charge stopping ability..I have shot a lot of game with that rifle and have shot sticks across the river at 200 yards with its iron sights, I love that gun and I am not a short barrel afficiendo as most here can tell you.. All my guns are 26 inch tubes....but that short "heavy" barrel does hang!! I would say that if it suits you then have at it, balistically or killing power wise it will work just fine... I intend to make me another carbine one of these days... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Sako used to make its AVs in a 20" barreled "Battue" model. It looked like a quick-handling rifle, but I never saw one in the stores. I doubt the loss of 150fps or so of velocity will make a difference on black (or brown) bear, or elk; just select an excellent game bullet like Swift A-Frames, NorthForks, or such to ensure proper terminal performance over a wide range of velocities. George  | |||
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Eric, I own 2 - .375 H&H with 20†barrels the shoot very well, have excellent balance and are handy to use, a custom CZ and a Custom Win pre 64 the are amongst my favorites, I can post some pictures I you like. Roland | |||
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Pictures? I'd love to see what they look like. I'm happy to see the positive responses. I hadn't really considered a CZ yet for this yet, but I do like the look of the new 550 American magnums with the laminated stocks. Thinking out loud, I'd have to get a CZ cross bolted and bedded, slick the action and swap the safety anyway, so I could have the gunsmith do the barrel job as well. I'm starting to like the idea . . . With a safari classic, I'd have to do the same, just not get the cross bolts nor swap the safety. Probably would cost the same overall regardless of rifle. Winchester has a better finish, but the CZ holds a round or two more, and weighs a little more. The things I worry about these days . . . Thanks men! -eric " . . . a gun is better worn and with bloom off---So is a saddle---People too by God." -EH | |||
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Eric, Some Pics,      Success and good hunting  Roland | |||
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If you have a 375 with such a short barrel, you are going to lose 200 ft/s, altough you will have a lighter and quick handling rifle. If your purpose is this, Why not you choose a 23" 9.3 x 62. The performance shall be more or less the same to your 20" barreled 375 rifle, but with less recoil. Ignacio Colomer | |||
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My purpose would be a [shorter] rifle, not necessarily a lighter one. Back in the late 80s/early 90s, I used to lug around a M249 SAW and rarely a M60 MG. A 9-10 lb rifle is not a big deal to me. I think a .375 at roughly 2350 or 2400 fps (300 gr) will do the trick just fine as a nice little brush thumper.  -eric " . . . a gun is better worn and with bloom off---So is a saddle---People too by God." -EH | |||
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Roland, thanks for posting the pictures. Very nice rifles. -eric " . . . a gun is better worn and with bloom off---So is a saddle---People too by God." -EH | |||
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teat...sounds great. have you considered an already overbore cart like the 375 ultra in a shorter barrel? the 20" h+h is good though in my opinion but not experience. also have you considered a shorter action cart combo like the 375 taylor or 375 wsm? you can get a longer barrel and the same overal length. a 375 taylor or 375 wsm in a blr lever action is on my list of projects good luck!577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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p.s... the 375 hellcat by lazzeroni is a tempting cart too unless you are into the nostalgia of the 375 h+h but with that shorter barrel i am assuming that you will be loading your own to make up for the short tube. so i did not put that into my factoring of input. here are some links for info on those carts i mentioned http://www.lazzeroni.com/ct_rifles.htm http://www.geocities.com/bw_99835/ (click on reloading data then 375 taylor) http://www.shortmags.org/shortmags/snitzforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3429 http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=436184 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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teathound I have had 2 different short bbled 375 H&H's. The first a SAKO Handy Rifle with the Mcmillian stock, with a 20 inch bbl. I liked this rifle a lot, my brother has it now. I currently shoot the Blaser R93. I have 2 375 bbls, a standard contour, and a 19 3/4" Tracker bbl with iron sights. I prefer the Tracker bbl. I have shot both of them side by side on paper, at 200 yards and cannot tell any difference between the accuracy of the two. I chronoed some loads the other day, all factory, out of the Tracker bbl. Federal 300 gr Nosler Partition 2372 fps. Federal 260 Accubond 2536fps Federal 240 Trophy Bonded Bearclaw 2532 fps These are averages of 2 shots fired with each load. I really like a short bbl 375 especially for North American hunting. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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i had one of my 375's cut down to 20.5 inches and its amazing how much handier it is and balances maybe even better than when it was 24in. | |||
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Hey Boom Stick, I thought about some other calibers, but decided against it. The 375 h&h would just be easier to finish and find ammo/components for. That's it. -eric " . . . a gun is better worn and with bloom off---So is a saddle---People too by God." -EH | |||
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BTW men, Who can do such barrel work? Would you recommend that I have the original barrel cut down, or save the original and have it replaced with a custom barrel? The latter I think . . . seems easier. Which barrels would you recommend? -eric " . . . a gun is better worn and with bloom off---So is a saddle---People too by God." -EH | |||
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if you already have the rifle and are taking it to the smith anyway you could rechamber it to 375 weatherby so you can shoot the 375 h+h and if you want more oomph shoot the 375 weatherby and that should keep you right on track for the original h+h power of 300gr. @ 2500 maybe 2500+ does anyone have a short 375 weatherby out there who can confirm this? more options to consider...wadaya think teat? man...now i want one!  yeahaw!http://www.accuratereloading.com/375wby.html check this out 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Yeah I've done it, it will be wonderful for you IMO. I have a 375 factory tube on an old 70 right now and I may just cut it to 21" (ok I like od numbers, to be different and maybe a bit supersticious...grins). I am quite sure you will not regret this! As far as loosing 200 fps I call horse hockey on that. I've done enough of this to know that is not the way it'll go. I like skinny tubes to be a bit longer and the fatter tubes to be a bit shorter. To me the tubne you're talking about is a fatter tube so I gotta believe you'll happy as a puppy with 2 peters when all is said and done. Like Ray said that tube will hang a bit better. Good luck Mark D | |||
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375 H&H 20" SAKO in a Bell Carlson stock with a Leupold 2-7x Compact weights 8 lbs and is really handy and nice to carry. It is not a bench rest rifle, so don't shoot it there anymore than necessary. It does kick. With the right handloads it will just about do it all...certainly in North America. Can't see any reason for more gun in the US or Canada...or most of the world for that matter. I'm thinking about cutting my 24" .35 Whelen back to 20" also. The year of the .30-06!! 100 years of mostly flawless performance on demand.....Celebrate...buy a new one!! | |||
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Eric, HCR, the do a good job for a reasonable price ask for Matt Bettersworth. Tree rifles have been done for me, excellent job, realistic time frame and honest people. http://www.hillcountryrifles.com tel: 830.609.3139 fax: 830.625.4020 Hill Country Rifle Company 5726 Morningside Dr. New Braunfels, Texas - 78132 Success, Roland | |||
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good point...maybe contact one of the better barrel companies and have them send you a 20" heavy barrel and put that money into that instead and come out better for not much more 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I choose my guns today by how easy they are to carry and all else has become secondary... However for hunting rifle I still like a med weight 26 inch tube for dangerous game in Africa, and one that weighs at least 9 Lbs. for one thing it points faster and more than anything else it settles faster when your out of breath or stressed,and its better for off hand shooting by a bunch, our forefathers thought so and they new a thing or two....the long tubes have never been a problem with me in the thick stuff as I never knew in advance where the brush would be!!  if its close to me the short tube will catch it too! so thats a poor arguement from some gun magazine I suspect..In fact all justification for carbines other than horseback carry and car carry is bunk..The best justification for a short gun is I want one, thats acceptable.I have not had one for years so I will build one for myself based on the "I want one" scenario, but it must have a thick stout heavy barrel that puts a lot of weight out front...It will be a big bore buff gun in probably a 416 Rem M-70..Maybe I will stock it in a nice piece of turkish or just shoot it as is, it will kick like a bitch in all probability as it will have a thin trim stock and all the weight will be in the barrel... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I had a Browning Bar Safari cut to 18" in .338 winchester magnum it was a great shooter and a handi rifle indeed . Peep sighted and my nephew bought it from me he loves it on the atv. | |||
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Roland, Who did the stock on the M70? Beautiful. Thanks | |||
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Has anybody else wondered why a 26" barrel on a shotgun is considered short, 28" the average, and 30" long but on a rifle 26" is long, 24" middle of the road, 22" avg, and 20" a carbine? Not sure if the two can be correlated but I've always thought that a 24" barrel on a rifle is a minimum and 26" is better, from both a performance standpoint and just plain looks. | |||
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Doublegun, The Rifle made by Carl Gunther - Winchester Pre 64 - 1953 Super Grade .375 H&H Carl Gunther was for many years master gunsmith and a great stock maker for Griffin & Howe. He started a custom gun business in his later years, and turned out top quality work. It is unfortunate that Carl past away too soon. Roland | |||
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Ray-your comment about all the weight in the tube is right on (at least from where I sit). I much prefer a rifle as such. That is most likely why I have a strong perpencity to leaning to rifles stocked in Africa Walnut (fiberglass) rather than traditional wood. I do like the looks of wood, but for me and the way I like a rifle to handle it puts too much weight to the back. To me the glass stocks keep the rear of the rifle lighter and the weight out front. Where IMO it is where it should be. I also prefer a tube to mike between .65 and .7 at the muzzle. A bit smaller cal can be more to the .65 range and the 30 cal and up I like to be around .7". Just my way thats all, no need for it to be anyone elses. MD | |||
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An inspiring post, Sir! Born of exprerince and in the light of not being jaded! I remember something from an article by one of the 'famous' gunwriters that stated something to the effect of "if you're shooting a long barreled gun, take a step BACK!" Geez. That's right on. Like a couple of inches is going to make THAT much of a difference! Ballistcally, maybe. But, for shooting position? c'mon! As for the chambering and bbl. contour --- the .375 Weatherby is a good one, as is a 21" THICK bbl. Best of both worlds? Could be. It gives me thought for a .375 RUM in a 24" bull bbl. w/350-gr. bullets and a STIFF load.  ____________________________________________ Did I mention, "I REALLY LIKE GUNS"? "...I don't care what you decide or how much you pay for it..." Former FFL Dealer NAHC Life Member NRA Endowment/Life Member Remington Society of America Member Hunter in Training | |||
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Methinks we're forgetting something - MUZZLE BLAST - sorry, felt someone ought to mention it - perceived recoil is heavily influenced by it, let alone issues of consideration for PHs, trackers etc huntiong alongside you. Charlie. | |||
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I went through a short barrel phase I have several rifles with 18 in barrels. I really do not find them any better then a rifle with a longer barrel. But they are a lot lounder and don't hang as nice for off hand shots. When I build my 416 I put a 25 inch barrel on that. | |||
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I started my short barrel "phase" about 40 years ago (about the same time I realized magnums weren't necessary) and there is no sign of me growing out of it. Short barrel guns do make more noise but I usually wear ear plugs if I'm shooting a lot anyway. I've used a Rem 870 3" 12 ga for a heavy duck/goose gun since forever. About 20 years ago, I put a 20" Hastings barrel on it replacing a 30" full choke and I can't tell you how much better it handles in a blind. Recoil was getting to me, so I bought a Beretta 390 with a 26" barrel...nice gun, but now that we have Hevi-shot and the like, I went back to the 870 with 2-3/4" loads which kills better than the 3" steel anyway. Reasonably fast burning powder, moderate loads in adequate calibers and short barrels serve me just fine.....I like em!!! Your mileage WILL vary....... The year of the .30-06!! 100 years of mostly flawless performance on demand.....Celebrate...buy a new one!! | |||
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Mark, I understand where your coming from, but I still use wood...It is a simple matter to drill out a buttstock, weight the forearm to get the balance where you want it with either material... Short tubes are a phase that every hunter/shooter bounces back and fourth with throughout his life..That's why its so funny to hear anyone be so adament in his choice because I know that somewhere down the line he will become a long tube addict and be shooting 30 inch barrels at some point and be just as persuasive... Truth be either way is a trade off, you give up something for something else, so take your pick...I know a long tube is a better hunting rifle and when the chips or down it will come through for you much better than a carbine, but a carbine is cute, handy and just nice to pack around and it gets the job done most of the time....the choice is yours..The answer is to have both, then you really get confused, you sit in front of the gun cabinet and it becomes a world class decision for you! Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Ray I love a carbine as much as the next fella, but it would never be my serious this is gonna get it done for me in any conditon rifle. I would love to have a 6 1/2 lb 308 for the lazy days and for the days I need to carry while packing a elk on my back. Or when I just want to take a walk and feel I want a gun along. But, for my day in and day out this is the gun that will get it done on demand. I prefer my 7 Mashburn Super and my 340 with their 4.5 weight Scheiders cut to 25". Or my 6/06 with its 25" 4 weight Schneider. These guns come in ready to fight at about 9 lbs. My lightest serious rifle is my G33/40 and it has a Lilja 270 tube on it and it weighs in a bit over eight. It's tube is 23" and it used to be 25". Had I not needed it a bit shorter for the scabbard I would of left it at 25". It balanced better to me at 25" but is a slight bit nicer to carry at 23". I may just rebarrel it in a year or two and go back to 25" and in an 06. Hard to believe I would say I'd have a 30 cal...grins Snow's about to hit here, guess I'd rather have the snow than Rita! Make it your best day! MD | |||
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I like both long and short barrels. I can say that I have shot several 18" and 20" barreled 308 rifles on paper to 600 yards. They performed very well. I have taken quite a bit of game with these short bbled 308's without any complaints. I have shot 20" 375 H&H's to 300 yards on paper and can tell no difference in accuracy between them and 22 to 26 inch bbls. I will say this, they are very handy to carry. For hunting where I pretty much know I might have to shoot at 300 yards plus, I like a long bbled 300 Mag, but for most everything else the bbl length does not make much difference in performance. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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N E 450 No2, Exactly the same experience. Roland | |||
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There is a gunsmith here in anchorage that did test with a 26" 375 H&H barrel. He took velosity averages on every inch increment and found very little difference between 24 and 20 inchest, less than 50fps on average. SHorter than 20" was much more noticable. I have a 24" wichester classic stainless that I am going to have cut down to 20" and have the barrel fluted to try to cut down on the weight and make it a little more handy. I'd like to get it as light as practical, 7-8.5 lbs. | |||
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About 6 years ago I bought a 375 H&H mod 70 classic that didn't handle to suit me. I read an article by Claire Reese about a 375 H&H he had built specifically for hunting Alaskan bears in the alders and willows. It was made by Rifles Inc. for him. It had a 21 inch barrel and all tricked out, weighed in at about 6.5 pounds. It sounded like exactly what I wanted. I called up Lex at Rifles Inc and told him to make me a carbon copy of that rifle. It has been my "Go to" rifle ever since. It does sacrifice a little on velocity but not as much as you might think. With the 270 gr Swift A-frame I get 2690 instead of 2750 but I haven't had many head of game complain about the extra 60 fps that it didn't get. It does kick a bit more than a 10 pounder, but it carries and goes to the shoulder like a 20 ga. quail gun. I think you will like a short 375. By the way, if someone will post the pics for me I will e-mail some targets that Roger Ferrell shot with the short barrel carbine after putting a new scope on for me. You don't have to lose accuracy because of a short tube. Someone asked about what brand of barrel would be good, Mine wears a Shillen barrel. Good hunting. "D" Although cartridge selection is important there is nothing that will substitute for proper first shot placement. Good hunting, "D" | |||
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My model 70 has a 20" tube. I took it out with and chronoed my loads last week. I am using a max load of IMR4320 out of the Latest barnes book and pushing a 270gr TSX at an AVG 2650FPS. It also shoots very tight with that load. I got a three shot .374" center to center group at 100yards. So in my mind you are not losing anything by shortening the barrel down to 20" on a .375H&H. Maybe a bit more noisy however. | |||
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The 375 HH is a pretty weel balanced case. I ahd a Win Model 70 cut from 24 to 20 inches. Velocity drop was a measured 105 fps with 300 grn bullets. I was able to achieve 2405 fps consistently with 300 grn bullets Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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