At Cabela's in Scarborough, ME they have a rifle about to go up for sale. Commissioned in 1988 it is an H&H Deluxe grade 375 H&H. Awfully nice. Guy said it originally cost 70k and they haven't sold it at 35k and will be lowering price to 29k.

Did not think such guns generally lost this kind of value.

Yes. I will also add that not too many folks walking into Cabela’s do so looking to drop 2k let alone 30-40k on a rifle.

You can have the best ice in the world, but no one in anartica will pay you for it. Move to the Sahara and you got buyers.

Doubles have for the first time in my life dropped off in value to some degree..I belive this is because of the inflation in the DG areas of Africa where some few years ago I sold buffalo hunts for $8000 for a 7 or 10 day hunt with 5 plainsgame animals for trophy fees or at one time tossed in for free...Today that same hunt runs upwards to $15.000 to $20,000 plus airfare or more..The other is the pricing got so high that sales go really low, and the price drop had to be...The higher dollar guns are the hardest to sell because of the limited number of well healed clients, many of whom are stuck with them and trying to get their investments back..Its a shame, I doubled my money back on every double I owned and bought and and sold quite a number of them..What a shame I and I don't see much light at the end of the tunnel..

It is normal for any new firearm or house to lose value initially in real terms but second-hand ones should gradually gain nominal value over time.

Things have changed in the past few years, though. 'Gains' in investment values traditionally come from general inflation, and there hasn't been much of that lately, except (here at least) in real estate.

The double-rifle market has flattened even more than inflation would suggest, perhaps for the reasons Ray mentions - but house prices might also have sucked the oxygen out of luxury gun sales in some markets.

Ordinary rifles have taken a hit, too, partly because Western economies have never really recovered from the global financial crisis of 2007-8, whereby many people are underemployed or can't get the regular pay rises they used to expect. Robotics and technological change have taken the secure full-time jobs many people once enjoyed, with even lawyers and other professionals feeling the pain.

Robotics and maker outlook has also made some new rifles so cheap that shooters who once looked for good s/h guns now just buy new.

Even though new H&H rifles seem dear enough, that firm now also partly machine-makes its rifles. For a while it seemed they were just pocketing the savings but it might be that even they have had to hold their price rises - if so, that will also dampen s/h values. Competition from good Continental makers could also have had some effect.

There may even be a fashion aspect. In the 1970s cash-strapped maharajahs apparently dispersed their db rifle collections. Initially this meant affordable old rifles but it also provoked new interest in the subject and brought new entrants into the cartridge, component and reloading-book field. This may have rejuvenated demand for new British double rifles but over time some of this interest seems to have subsided once more.

That said, I still see and hear of used London guns and rifles selling for over $100,000, so wonder if the one you mention may be worn, have something else wrong with it or just not be marketed properly. If it is in good shape, you may have discovered a bargain.

This is a magazine rifle not a double.

quote:

Originally posted by bluefish:
This is a magazine rifle not a double.

Does this rifle have a magnum length action, or a standard length DWM/1909 action that has been opened up?

Originally posted by Ray Atkinson:

quote:

Doubles have for the first time in my life dropped off in value to some degree..I belive this is because of the inflation in the DG areas of Africa where some few years ago I sold buffalo hunts for $8000 for a 7 or 10 day hunt with 5 plainsgame animals for trophy fees or at one time tossed in for free...Today that same hunt runs upwards to $15.000 to $20,000 plus airfare or more..The other is the pricing got so high that sales go really low, and the price drop had to be...The higher dollar guns are the hardest to sell because of the limited number of well healed clients, many of whom are stuck with them and trying to get their investments back..Its a shame, I doubled my money back on every double I owned and bought and and sold quite a number of them..What a shame I and I don't see much light at the end of the tunnel..

I think Ray is correct. I've had folks at my gun club ask me why I don't have a double rifle for hunting Africa. I tell them I could afford the rifle it's the cost of Elephant hunts that keeps me from buying one.

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:

quote:

Originally posted by bluefish:
This is a magazine rifle not a double.

Does this rifle have a magnum length action, or a standard length DWM/1909 action that has been opened up?

It appears to be a standard length milsurp of unknown make since it has the H&H side mount. Drop box magazine. A very nice rifle.

Sorry Bluefish, the lack of 'Royal' in the appellation should have alerted me to its not being a double.

Can't be sure but $70,000 sounds like a lot even for H&H magazine rifles back in 1988. As it happens I was shown a slightly older one today and even though it sported a Swarovski in the superlative H&H detachable mounts, they had not bothered to replace the military safety. (A standing flag safety may not be forgotten in a charge but becomes useless once you install a scope.)

Maybe buyers don't see the same mystique in flash sporterizing they find in doubles built from scratch.

Just speculating, but I think the cohort of guys who appreciate high quality sporting arms is getting older. They aren’t being replaced by younger collectors or hunters. Many of the older group is at the point of selling their collections, possibly due to a lack of interest in such things among the heirs. Younger shooters seem to be interested in the so-called “tactical” guns. Fine rifles bring images of hunting adventures to mind and that’s not what many of the younger group is interested in doing. There are exceptions of course. I hope enough interest in fine rifles and shotguns continues to support the artisans that build them.

I turn 31 in the 29th. Am I still young to be an exception to the young class? Or am I now in the old group?

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I turn 31 in the 29th. Am I still young to be an exception to the young class? Or am I know in the old group?

Ha! Young, obviously. And one of those that will hopefully keep the practitioners of the art going.

With the bureaucrats on both sides of the pond, coming up with new and more costly hassles to bring your beloved rifles on intercontinental hunting trips, and ever increasing prices, I expect the safari industry to return to its former days of being only accessible to the very rich.

I hope I am wrong.

BH63

When I studied my law we were told that you never lend money on a brick field. A brick field is a large area of land, of clay, that is cut and made into bricks.

Obviously as the more bricks you cut the less clay is left. So you are lending money on an asset that every day it is "worked" diminishes in value.

In one sense that's the same as any rifle. The more it is fired the more the bore moves slowly to the time when the rifling is shot out.

This is a 1988 made rifle. I doubt that it has had that many rounds through it...but it may have and without a report on the bore condition any valuation is speculative.

But that it cost US $ 70,000 in 1988? I can't see that these things were that expensive then. I really really can't. Canadian Dollars? Australian Dollars?

But US Dollars? I can't see it. In 1988 the US Dollar traded between 1.89 to 1.66 to the UK Pound.

FWIW they have it listed as a takedown rifle which it most certainly is not. Wonder what they'd say if I walked in with $15k and said take it or leave it.

Is the rifle on their site? can't find it.

Half this mystery is rooted in the word "Cabela's".
The brand and their "Gun Library" are not what they used to be. Fair assessment, accurate description, and realistic pricing of their guns is problematic at best.
Ignorant and arrogant firearms section staff seems to be the order of the day.

The perfect rifle should cost no more than about five thousand dollars.Any cost more than that is going towards making it look shinier, smoother,etc...just looks.If you become addicted to the looks you take the hook.The most important thing on a rifle doesn't cost all that much...it is the barrel or bore.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
The perfect rifle should cost no more than about five thousand dollars.Any cost more than that is going towards making it look shinier, smoother,etc...just looks.If you become addicted to the looks you take the hook.The most important thing on a rifle doesn't cost all that much...it is the barrel or bore.

Hi, George, it’s Chip here. I’v always been envious of your beautiful Satterlee actioned Martini in .458 Lott. Surely that must have been more than $5,000.00. Cheers. Chip.

quote:

Originally posted by CHIPB:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
The perfect rifle should cost no more than about five thousand dollars.Any cost more than that is going towards making it look shinier, smoother,etc...just looks.If you become addicted to the looks you take the hook.The most important thing on a rifle doesn't cost all that much...it is the barrel or bore.

Hi, George, it’s Chip here. I’v always been envious of your beautiful Satterlee actioned Martini in .458 Lott. Surely that must have been more than $5,000.00. Cheers. Chip.

Thanks,Chip.Yes it does cost more than five grand and it is a gem no doubt, shoots well too.That said,I like my modified Rugers too.
I have no regrets on buying my two Martini Gunmaker's Lotts.They are my two Mona Lisa's!
Did you receive your Hagn single shot? Maybe one day the Satterlee/Martini will see Africa.If I strike it rich one day I'll buy more of these rifles.

Hey, George. I am in agreement with you...Ralf Martini is an artist, and having one of his rifles with the Satterlee action makes it even more special. I confess, I have "taken the hook" on most of the rifles in my safe. I'm a sucker for beautiful rifles and beautiful women. I've had much better luck with the former .

On the .500 NE falling block from Martin Hagn... believe it or not, the action is still in the custody of Hartmann & Weiss in Hamburg, Germany. They are still waiting for the export permit before sending it back to Martin. Once he receives it, all he has to do is to assemble it and shoot it before sending it down here to Phoenix. The stock and the barrel are completed. I'll post pictures as soon as I receive the rifle. Be well, George. Cheers. Chip.

Yeah, no way any “normal” deluxe H&H bolt gun was $70K in ‘88.
I’m not sure I buy the argument that limited access to dangerous game hunting in Africa has all that much to do with declining big bore double prices either.
‘20s and ‘30s automobiles are in the tank too, and it ain’t from a lack of roads.
Folks today in the under 40yo bracket just don’t have much connection with the pre war era, either in relationships or in an historical interest perspective.
Just look at the rifles on offer at William Larkin Moore.
They look to have come into an estate with a lot of very fine doubles. My assumption.
Pricing for most is quite high considering the market.
My bet is that the owner of these rifles didn’t even consider Africa when buying these firearms.
Certainly, he was a collector of means with a keen interest for this type of firearm and very well could have been a client on a number of safaris but beyond a couple rifles, his collection was driven by passion for the collecting and the romance of the era.
That passion is all but extinct these days.
It’s only going to get worse from here...

Buy high end shotguns if you want to shoot it a lot and still retain value.

Hunting a high end rifle hard or shooting it lot will not be good for resale value.

Bespoke guns with bespoke engraving and owners initials ects don’t appeal to everyone.

There is a left handed 375 h&h Ralf Martini for sale for a while. New ones take years to build. But then why would anyone buy some else bespoke suite.

For the high end Hollands the whole bespoke thing is a inside joke. Most of their guns are sold off the shelf. The personal who normally pays $500k for a pair of doubles does not wait or get measured. Al.l those interwar doubles when holland achieved some form of mass production were not made to every buyers measure. They were made to stock. The news ones they sell each year 8-10 are mainly made to stock. There are more bespoke heym or vc than Hollands.

Also high end guns are in a way like diamonds. They are near infinitely lived assets. No one throws or uses one away - they keep being added to the pool. Add a shrinking buyers market - bad demographics one has to hope some billionaires wants to own room full of Hollands and not sell any in a estate sale.

All these other doubles also keeps building up. Every year the production double manufactures keep building up.

Why I own only one double, my custom rifles built by ahr are built on rifles I have heavily hunted and am attached too. Other high end guns are blasers that I can sell piece by piece.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by JeffreyPhD:
Just speculating, but I think the cohort of guys who appreciate high quality sporting arms is getting older. They aren’t being replaced by younger collectors or hunters. Many of the older group is at the point of selling their collections, possibly due to a lack of interest in such things among the heirs. Younger shooters seem to be interested in the so-called “tactical” guns. Fine rifles bring images of hunting adventures to mind and that’s not what many of the younger group is interested in doing. There are exceptions of course. I hope enough interest in fine rifles and shotguns continues to support the artisans that build them.

Yes, I think you and Enfieldspares may have nailed it. Back in the '50s it seems the average person enjoyed dramas about African safaris. My father used to read books like Hunter (by J.A.) and Harry Black to us on cold winter nights before TV arrived.

A trip to many gun shops that only sell new stuff now can be a boring expedition.

I’ve never considered any of my hunting guns as collectibles, but rather the good ones are artistry that I will use and appreciate for my lifetime.

If I can find a good home to gift them to once I’m done with them, great, but most likely they will go to auction when I’m in a hole, so my relatives can get a dime on the dollar, if that... and the taxidermy is going to be less than that...

So, it’s for me, not to preserve wealth.

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
Yeah, no way any “normal” deluxe H&H bolt gun was $70K in ‘88.
I’m not sure I buy the argument that limited access to dangerous game hunting in Africa has all that much to do with declining big bore double prices either.
‘20s and ‘30s automobiles are in the tank too, and it ain’t from a lack of roads.
Folks today in the under 40yo bracket just don’t have much connection with the pre war era, either in relationships or in an historical interest perspective.
Just look at the rifles on offer at William Larkin Moore.
They look to have come into an estate with a lot of very fine doubles. My assumption.
Pricing for most is quite high considering the market.
My bet is that the owner of these rifles didn’t even consider Africa when buying these firearms.
Certainly, he was a collector of means with a keen interest for this type of firearm and very well could have been a client on a number of safaris but beyond a couple rifles, his collection was driven by passion for the collecting and the romance of the era.
That passion is all but extinct these days.
It’s only going to get worse from here...

I pretty well agree with all that including price of rifle. Over the years I have often checked H&H bolt action prices and $30,000 or so stops most of them. Of course that is for their basic rifle.

Also, I think the vast majority of big bores, 375 and up, are not bought because of Africa, Alaska, Northern Australia etc.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I’ve never considered any of my hunting guns as collectibles, but rather the good ones are artistry that I will use and appreciate for my lifetime.

If I can find a good home to gift them to once I’m done with them, great, but most likely they will go to auction when I’m in a hole, so my relatives can get a dime on the dollar, if that... and the taxidermy is going to be less than that...

So, it’s for me, not to preserve wealth.

Very true.

I plan to shoot my guns a lot in the next decade or two. I plan to use my fishing gear a lot.

But I am planning from now to get rid of stuff I don’t use.

My guns will start getting culled in near future - if I don’t shoot it I don’t want it.

Mike

Sooooo buy a double rifle with an additional set of shotgun barrels to retain value?

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
Buy high end shotguns if you want to shoot it a lot and still retain value.

Hunting a high end rifle hard or shooting it lot will not be good for resale value.

Bespoke guns with bespoke engraving and owners initials ects don’t appeal to everyone.

There is a left handed 375 h&h Ralf Martini for sale for a while. New ones take years to build. But then why would anyone buy some else bespoke suite.

For the high end Hollands the whole bespoke thing is a inside joke. Most of their guns are sold off the shelf. The personal who normally pays $500k for a pair of doubles does not wait or get measured. Al.l those interwar doubles when holland achieved some form of mass production were not made to every buyers measure. They were made to stock. The news ones they sell each year 8-10 are mainly made to stock. There are more bespoke heym or vc than Hollands.

Also high end guns are in a way like diamonds. They are near infinitely lived assets. No one throws or uses one away - they keep being added to the pool. Add a shrinking buyers market - bad demographics one has to hope some billionaires wants to own room full of Hollands and not sell any in a estate sale.

All these other doubles also keeps building up. Every year the production double manufactures keep building up.

Why I own only one double, my custom rifles built by ahr are built on rifles I have heavily hunted and am attached too. Other high end guns are blasers that I can sell piece by piece.

Mike

Cabela's gun library specifically their "Fine Gun Room" has really gone downhill. They have always been overpriced but there used to be a more interesting inventory. I haven't been back in a couple of years.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Sooooo buy a double rifle with an additional set of shotgun barrels to retain value?

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
Buy high end shotguns if you want to shoot it a lot and still retain value.

Hunting a high end rifle hard or shooting it lot will not be good for resale value.

Bespoke guns with bespoke engraving and owners initials ects don’t appeal to everyone.

There is a left handed 375 h&h Ralf Martini for sale for a while. New ones take years to build. But then why would anyone buy some else bespoke suite.

For the high end Hollands the whole bespoke thing is a inside joke. Most of their guns are sold off the shelf. The personal who normally pays $500k for a pair of doubles does not wait or get measured. Al.l those interwar doubles when holland achieved some form of mass production were not made to every buyers measure. They were made to stock. The news ones they sell each year 8-10 are mainly made to stock. There are more bespoke heym or vc than Hollands.

Also high end guns are in a way like diamonds. They are near infinitely lived assets. No one throws or uses one away - they keep being added to the pool. Add a shrinking buyers market - bad demographics one has to hope some billionaires wants to own room full of Hollands and not sell any in a estate sale.

All these other doubles also keeps building up. Every year the production double manufactures keep building up.

Why I own only one double, my custom rifles built by ahr are built on rifles I have heavily hunted and am attached too. Other high end guns are blasers that I can sell piece by piece.

Mike

A double rifle with shotgun barrels is a joke. They make terrible shotguns.

Just buy a matched pair of good shotguns and shoot them. Service then at the high end manufacture and you will retain value and get some real use and the gun does not get beat up.

Mike

Again, this is another stupid thead. If you want to pay $70,000 for an H&H bolt or double gun, then do it. I’m pretty sure I can use a Merkel DR or an Interarms Mark X just as effectively

Its all speculation and a gamble, nobody really knows..but Im convienced with PU trucks selling for $60 to $70 grand, Homes bring 250 grand in Idaho and three quarters of a million in California, the purchase of a double rifle as an investment has slowed down, in fact Im sure of it, bought and sold too many to believe otherwise..Todays hunter spends his extra money on overly inflated Safari as a result of the Indigenous greed of the new African, and our newbie shoots a plastic stock, stainless steel, factory bolt rifle to the same effect as I shot my doubles back when they sold for $4500 the same as a Buffalo hunt.. ..

Over those good times, I doubled my money on every double I bought...Today Im sure some well heeled hunters still hunt with high dollar guns as they can afford them and they hunt the 21 day Safaris, but the less heeled today and they are the majority have backed off on high dollar guns and the $70,000 plus hunts..

This is based soley on my experience over the years in Africa and dealing with all manner of clients...Im not the last word on the subject just an old geezer with an opinion!!

Beretta 682E
Your comments on most high end bespoke guns being sold off the shelf is plain wrong.

I am familiar with Purdey and WR.

In both instances the wait time is 2-3 yrs.
Nothing off the shelf was mentioned or offered.
each build is commissioned once deposit and contract is signed.

Holland’s do have the largest production run out of the big 4 UK bespoke builders,but They don’t have the resources to produce stock guns and have them waiting for a buyer.

50% down payment in advance and balance on completion is the norm.

With WR producing a whopping 25 guns per year in total, including double rifles ,shotguns and turn bolts,

no chance of walking in and getting a single gun let alone pair !!! No matter how much$$$$ you have.

My 500 droplock took 3 yrs, I’ve got a 577 18 months into build and it’s being stocked by Xmas.
Then regulated, then engraved , colour hardened,then finish etc, another 3 yr deal.

Interesting, WR500. Would you say that the prices of these bespoke pieces continues to rise or have their makers had to pull their heads in a bit, too?

In slow times they probably put a minimum mark-up on them below which there is no profit or motivation in building them but if the demand were to increase so will there mark-up.I wonder who makes WR's barrels or which brand do they use?

It's not much fun spending a ton of money on an old double and discovering the bores only had another 100rds of life left in them.

"Of course. It always sucks to be an inexperienced neophyte getting burned by your own inability not to recognize your limitations"

I guess you learned that from your latest hunt.

Ouch?

quote:

Originally posted by WR500:
Beretta 682E
Your comments on most high end bespoke guns being sold off the shelf is plain wrong.

I am familiar with Purdey and WR.

In both instances the wait time is 2-3 yrs.
Nothing off the shelf was mentioned or offered.
each build is commissioned once deposit and contract is signed.

Holland’s do have the largest production run out of the big 4 UK bespoke builders,but They don’t have the resources to produce stock guns and have them waiting for a buyer.

50% down payment in advance and balance on completion is the norm.

With WR producing a whopping 25 guns per year in total, including double rifles ,shotguns and turn bolts,

no chance of walking in and getting a single gun let alone pair !!! No matter how much$$$$ you have.

My 500 droplock took 3 yrs, I’ve got a 577 18 months into build and it’s being stocked by Xmas.
Then regulated, then engraved , colour hardened,then finish etc, another 3 yr deal.

Holland is mainly off the shelf.

Purdey on rifles is different. They have one left handed buyers who just has them constantly building guns. Those are the left handed rifles one sees at sci and sometimes at London shop. I was told he accounts for a good portion of purdey rifle build each year. Why there are so many left handed purdey at the shows.

All the new double rifles at holland in London on display are stocked guns and readily available for purchase. Holland makes 8-10 doubles a year. I was told more than 1/2 are spec gun. I don’t know much about Holland in Dallas now. I mainly knew the New York gun room.

I have no idea about WR.

Mike

All the Hollands for sale by Holland

https://www.hollandandholland.com/guns/

All the new guns available are stock guns.

Mike