i certainly think that equating the penetration of a 45/70 and a .223 is somewhat ridiculous and i'm more curious about how the differences of "normal" large bore calibers wound channels are versus each other. i've not seen huge differences b/w a .458, a lott, and any of the .45's with solids.

i for one will still not take anything with a muzzle brake in a lowlight/night condition.

Well the good thing is getting into the 550 577 and 600 range has gotten cheap enough for the average guy to afford to do their own testing

quote:

i certainly think that equating the penetration of a 45/70 and a .223 is somewhat ridiculous

I "equated" nothing...

I was simply stating that penetration is not the only factor in stoping power...

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Well the good thing is getting into the 550 577 and 600 range has gotten cheap enough for the average guy to afford to do their own testing

That is true...

But have you noticed that .700 bullets are disproportionately expensive???

I wonder why??

no but it is by far the biggest factor, that and hitting what you're freaking supposed to. this is why many a PH survived with much much much less than a 600. marksmanship scares people. evidently, 223's are known for deflecting off of anything with a slant or a curve, 45/70's are not. i'd say there's many pretty good reasons why 2 bores weren't more popular and i'll still take great marksmanship out of adequate calibers a shooter can afford and can physically handle over a monster caliber with a flinch.

once again, on anything the size of a hippo, you're not gonna shock anything do death.


why don't we all run around with 5 gun bearers carrying 20mm's weighing in at around a 100lbs a piece?


now i find out the most popular ph caliber of the last 50 years, the 458wm isn't a stopper. this board is quite enlightening.
i'd say in nearly every instance i've read about a 458wm not "working well", is either outright bullet failure or the ph didn't put it where it needed to be. then again, poor marksmanship is often blamed on the caliber, the rifle, very rarely is it blamed on the shooter, by the shooter.

from what I understand the 700 is a modern bore.

the 600 was extremely rare.

the 577 was THE big bore in the late 1800's for Ivory hunters.

the 500 caught on well and then after that the powders and bullets just kept getting better so the carts and bores got smaller.

there are so few 700's that the uber premium prices prevail.

quote:

there are so few 700's that the uber premium prices prevail

Supply and demand....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tradmark:
no but it is by far the biggest factor, that and hitting what you're freaking supposed to. this is why many a PH survived with much much much less than a 600. marksmanship scares people. evidently, 223's are known for deflecting off of anything with a slant or a curve, 45/70's are not. i'd say there's many pretty good reasons why 2 bores weren't more popular and i'll still take great marksmanship out of adequate calibers a shooter can afford and can physically handle over a monster caliber with a flinch.

once again, on anything the size of a hippo, you're not gonna shock anything do death.


why don't we all run around with 5 gun bearers carrying 20mm's weighing in at around a 100lbs a piece?


now i find out the most popular ph caliber of the last 50 years, the 458wm isn't a stopper. this board is quite enlightening.QUOTE]



Isn't it.....

Since when is it not?

quote:

223's are known for deflecting off of anything with a slant or a curve,

OK...

Bad example on my part...

I simply ment lesser calibers could penetrate to vital areas just as eaisly yet not leave as big of a wound channel....

quote:

now i find out the most popular ph caliber of the last 50 years, the 458wm isn't a stopper,

I guess all those PHs had not discovered the 45-70 either or they would have been using them instead of their 458s...

There is an ongoing theme that suggest that with a 600 or simalarly powerful weapon that a shot that misses the mark will be instantly effective thus giving a larger margin of error. Can anyone give the speciffics of this larger margin that one can miss the mark by, is it 1/8 of an inch 1/2 inch 1 inch. Exactly how far can one miss the mark and obtain istant stops?

quote:

Originally posted by trophyhunter5000:

quote:

223's are known for deflecting off of anything with a slant or a curve,

OK...

Bad example on my part...

I simply ment lesser calibers could penetrate to vital areas just as eaisly yet not leave as big of a wound channel....

quote:

now i find out the most popular ph caliber of the last 50 years, the 458wm isn't a stopper,

I guess all those PHs had not discovered the 45-70 either or they would have been using them instead of their 458s...

The suggestion that if a 45-70 will work the 458 is meaningless is a bad arguement.
The picture below is a Zebras heart that was detroyed by a 210 grain TSX from a 338 Federal. Now does that mean that a 338 Win, 375 H&H, or larger is irrealevant. No it only means that the 338 Federal is adequaate and that is all that it means

quote:

The suggestion that if a 45-70 will work the 458 is meaningless is a bad arguement.

jwp475,

Perhaps I should have used a few
With that comment...

I agree with your example of the 338 through 375...

When a cartridge is adequate it’s adequate. And the 45-70 is adequate for many applications...

But larger bullets at relatively higher velocities (.510,.550,.585,.620,@2150--2400) leave very big holes...that's all I'm saying..

And they are all shootable with a practice....

How much of a margin do you have with these big bores????

I don't know if there is a way to quantify it....except they drop large game like no other cartridges before...

Just ask Safarikid how his Buffs reacted when shot with his 600

quote:

Originally posted by trophyhunter5000:

quote:

The suggestion that if a 45-70 will work the 458 is meaningless is a bad arguement.

jwp475,

Perhaps I should have used a few
With that comment...

I agree with your example of the 338 through 375...

When a cartridge is adequate it’s adequate. And the 45-70 is adequate for many applications...

But larger bullets at relatively higher velocities (.510,.550,.585,.620,@2150--2400) leave very big holes...that's all I'm saying..

And they are all shootable with a practice....

How much of a margin do you have with these big bores????

I don't know if there is a way to quantify it....except they drop large game like no other cartridges before...

Just ask Safarikid how his Buffs reacted when shot with his 600

I do not dought that Sfarikids buff was greatly over powered, a big buff is maybe 2000 pound, but a big Hippo is probably 6000 pounds. I watched a video with Jim Shockey trying to take a hippo with black powder. The Hippo charged and the PH hit him in the head with 2 shots from his 500 Nitro and the animal showed no indication of 2 hits both in the head according to the PH. The Hippo contiued to run into the water and out of sight. The extra power of the 500 with 2 shots in the head did not instantly incapacitate the animal. Much less effective than a 45-70 bullet in the brain IMHO

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
MacD37- You keep missing the point! In a close range Hippo, Lion, Ele , Buff charge exactly what makes you think you will have time for more than one shot?

I'm not missing anything! The only chance anyone will have with a close charge of a hippo,or buffalo to get off a second shot, will be with a double, or a bolt that has little enough recoil to make it possible, nothing more!

What makes me think I'll get off more than one shot? In the first place I would not play Hippo roulette, with any rifle, and certainly not with any of the firearms listed. But in any event......Im not stupid.

Nor am I a PH, but I was personally involved in a Buffalo charge that started at around 25 feet,that we didn't even know was there, and the PH was useing a BRNO 375 H&H bolt rifle, and I a 500/450NE double. The PH and I both hit him in the chest with the first two shots,one from each of us, and the next two were in the head at less than ten feet, one in the brain, and the other through the bull's cheek, and into his shoulder. That is two shots from a double, and two only slightly slower with the bolt rifle. The reason the bolt got two is because it didn't have the recoil the 600 OK will in a bolt rifle, drasticlly shortening recovery time, a man who knew his rifle,and we didn't have time to get scared!

quote:

That's what at least five PH's including Johan Caliz have told me who all have had experience with close range charges. I've personally had one with a wounded Buff. I got one shot off( I had a double too). PH got none!Despite popular belief,most of us are not skilled enough to ever get off more than one shot especially when scared to death. Just watch all those stupid Lion charge videos. If you have only one shot wouldn't you not want to stop it and NOW? Do you think recoil matters at that instant? The point is the vast majority of hunters here would choose a STOPPING rifle over a PISSING-OFF rifle.

What is a pissing off rifle amoung a 470NE, 500NE, or a 577NE double rifle, and every one of those has a better chance of getting off more than one shot, than anything listed in the poll?

I'm sorry if Johan had a problem with second shots, which I do not believe, because I saw him hit a cape buffalo twice with his 470 Searcy when the charge came out of the tsaro bush at less than 20 feet, and another when a buff got up at less than 5 feet, and he got both barrels hot there too!

quote:

AS YOU have said before, a DGR should be able to start and stop the fight. A 45-70 can start the fight but won't be very usefull if it needs to be stopped except maybe against a charging Impala. It's not a DGR. .-Rob

The poll is good, but it simly lacks a NONE OF THE ABOVE, and an OTHER vote! And my vote would have been for NONE OF THE ABOVE, and OTHER!

the point of the argument is not to say that since the 45/70 will penetrate the brain that makes a 458wm obsolete. but.....if the 458 isn't gonna stop a charge in the chest or "shock" anyting down to the ground, what else is gained by the increase in recoil. the whole point is that i'm very very sure i could get off 2 shots with my casull loaded moderate in very very short order, the pistol in question would come into play for 2-3 shots very very quickly if one understands that you don't have to load to the moon so it'll hit you in the head to penetrate into a hippos brain, very very little is gained increasing the velocity a couple hundred fps while increasing recoil exponentially. same with the 45/70, and.......same with the 600. nothing loading those shells to 1700-1800 fps won't accomplish just as well as loading them to over 2100........except increasing the chance you'll get a second shot. i'd be more confident of mark sullivan stopping a charge with a .338 or 45/70 than one of those ph's that's been charged once or twice in their career with a .577. it comes right back around to marksmanship.........but saying that hitting the cns or not is the key instead of muzzle energy and a margin of error. This makes some, evidently, very very uncomfortable. probably cuz you have to earn it instead of buy it.



now..........the point is why should i have to spend what i'd spend on taking my sons on safari with me for an overbored, too large and expensive, rifle that i still have to hit in the vitals or cns with, instead of my 45/70 which is imminently qualified to take any game over in africe with proper shot placement (a term which is necessary with any caliber of rifle) and bullet choice.


i'd venture to bet there's not a charge that anyone's ever stopped with a lott that wouldn't have been stopped with a .458 or.............a 45/70 if shot placement is the same with the right bullet for the job.

and........all those deer and goats killed with the 600 would've been just as dead with a 45/70 and a .308 with good bullets. which is why i saw a bison on it's feet for 15 minutes after being shot with a 50bmg (poor bullet choice) and then dropped in 30 yards with a better hit with a 30/30. damn that annoying shot placement/marksmanship thing.

quote:

damn that annoying shot placement/marksmanship thing.

I agree 100%

Use the biggest gun you can shoot well...

Thats why I love my 600, its amazingly accurate and easy to shoot....

And relatively cheap to boot...

MacD37- YOU ONLY GET ONE SHOT. Not TWO in HIPPO ROULETTE. YOUR DOUBLE WON'T MATTER!. Are WE communicating yet? There are thousands of other possibilities I choose just three to make a point. I was simply trying to make a point about about Stopping power not target shooting! I didn't want to further confuse the issues at hand. Of course if there is time a double .600NE would be great. In this scenario its useless.
Trademark- You may or may not have time for aimed shots. Aimed at what too? A big glob of Hippo mouth and teeth becoming much larger each millisecond? Come ON about marksmanship! Your ability to accurately hit its brain is low. Not zero, but low. With a 45-70 your margin for error is very low. At 1800fps its insignificantly better with a 45-70.. In assending order with a .470NE, 500NE, 505 Gibbs, 500 Jeffery, 500a2, 550 mag, .577NE etc it gets better. THAT is precisely why we pay so much money for dangerous game rifles. You can't buy them at KMart! IT's INSURANCE. BTW No one shoots perfectly all the time period.. The same margin of error works on game well out to 150 yrds or so when you can take the time to aim. The trajectory of a 45-70 isn't the greatest either. Probably no worse than the .600Ok. Me I'd hunt everything with a .600OK and be forever content with it out to those ranges.
Again try one and see just how terrible the recoil really is. You'll be surprised. -Rob

Rob, you continualy talk about margin of error so what is the margin 1/8", 1/2", 1", exactly how far can one miss with a 600? Does any one know. You have certainly stacked the discusion so as to pre-determuine the outcome..

I noticed Jim Shocky's PH failed to stop a Hippo with 2, yes 2 500 Nitro sloids to the Head. The Hippo continued righht on past him and into the water and out of sight. The PH claimed that both bullets hit in the head of course they both missed the brain, are you saying that one 600 would have instantly stopped the Hippo with one shot, with the same shot placement?
Have you ever stopped a charging Hippo?

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
MacD37- YOU ONLY GET ONE SHOT. Not TWO in HIPPO ROULETTE. YOUR DOUBLE WON'T MATTER!. Are WE communicating yet? There are thousands of other possibilities I choose just three to make a point. I was simply trying to make a point about about Stopping power not target shooting! I didn't want to further confuse the issues at hand. Of course if there is time a double .600NE would be great. In this scenario its useless.
Trademark- You may or may not have time for aimed shots. Aimed at what too? A big glob of Hippo mouth and teeth becoming much larger each millisecond? Come ON about marksmanship! Your ability to accurately hit its brain is low. Not zero, but low. With a 45-70 your margin for error is very low. At 1800fps its insignificantly better with a 45-70.. In assending order with a .470NE, 500NE, 505 Gibbs, 500 Jeffery, 500a2, 550 mag, .577NE etc it gets better. THAT is precisely why we pay so much money for dangerous game rifles. You can't buy them at KMart! IT's INSURANCE. BTW No one shoots perfectly all the time period.. The same margin of error works on game well out to 150 yrds or so when you can take the time to aim. The trajectory of a 45-70 isn't the greatest either. Probably no worse than the .600Ok. Me I'd hunt everything with a .600OK and be forever content with it out to those ranges.
Again try one and see just how terrible the recoil really is. You'll be surprised. -Rob

You are right, I'm all wet, if you are only allowed one shot, then just give me the 600! But with that handicap, any of the cartridges you posted will hit the brain of a hippo from the front,or through the roof of the open mouth, even with the mouth wide open, you can see the eyes on each side of the upper jaw, you just shoot between them! He can see triaght ahead with his mouth wide open. The only drawback is with the pistol, which is harder to shoot well, even once, from a rest, and really hard when needed shot must come fast!

You have to give us old folks a little lieghway, as you know the effects of "OLDTIMER'S DESEASE"! Some times we get instructions a little slowly!

robgun -- actually this is a great topic, and i love the question and limitations you posed. if i had the options of my firearms i can say with just one shot i'd go with my 460 weatherby, but that's once again, because i'm familiar with it. if multiple shots is desired, i would have no qualms about my pistols, or my leverguns as i am back on target in a flash with moderate loads and can get 3 off with my 45/70 to one with the 460 wby (without the brake).

when i guided my 11 year old son on foot to take his first wild boar with a longbow i had alot of choosing to do with my firearms, ended up taking a glock 20 10mm with some corbon hardcasts (aftermarket barrel of course) as i could get 3-4x's the shots off in 10 yards as i could with anything else, didn't need it, but i went with multiple firepower over even a 460 b/c even with a body hit there's no guarantee of putting down a 300-400lb hog right away, it's brain or nothing when the kiddo is 5 yards away and in that instance firepower meant everything as all the above calibers would reach the brain.

btw, he ended up taking a boar at 3 yards!!!!


one day, we look forward to reliving it with cape buff and hippos.

MacD37 and Trademark- Yes it is an excellent discussion topic and one that is rarely intelligently discussed. Given the heated debate I was simply using a scenario to make a point. No offense to anyone intended. Way too much emotion over favorite cartridges and sacred cows ( yum-Yum). I actually like the 45-70 but am quite aware of its limitations and frankly I'm not a stunt loving guy when it comes down to Dangerous game. Some of the Heli-pilot in me coming out. Things always seem to go wrong and I learned a important lesson from my last ELE hunt where my best laid plans went to crap in a millisecond. I was in real danger of a 15 ft charge and even with a .470NE double in my hands, I would have given anything for that .600 OK at that moment. BTW the .470 NE turned the ele but did not kill him. They are real big that close and a frontal brain shot was out of the question and my abilities. Actually in retrospect with the .600Ok I might even have chanced the frontal brain shot as confident as I am of the advantage it would give me. With that .600Ok I would have stood a better chance of driving the bullet into the heart lung area from that angle and close enough would have been good enough. . Had I had a 45-70 in my hands, I would have simple used my one remaining shot on the game scout as payment in kind as he was the one who just got me killed.
These stoppers are just that, they give you a big advantage and may just save your life. Besides its way easier to trail the blood spore of something with a beer can sized hole in it.
I like hunting DG with big bore doubles for the obvious reason of the fast second shot. They are wonderfull tools but if there is no time for a second shot then there is no replacement for displacement.-Rob

Yaaaaaaawn.......

It's a friggin' Hippo!!! Not an M1 Tank!!

If your goal is to flatten a hippo on the spot its doable with a 600 or 700.....just load it with a projectile designed for the task!! Most of us here know what that looks like (Rob) but also know it's excessive collateral damage negates it's usefulness as a sporting load.

You don't need to pin em in the pea brain if his head is missing!!!

Macifej- Read The scenario again! FOLLOW DIRECTIONS!- IT defined that normal bullets are used. No Grenade launchers were listed as options either were they. No CLAYMORE MINES DUCK TAPED to your head with THIS SIDE TOWARD HIPPO EITHER were allowed options! I didn't say explosive bullets could be used because they were not used when this game was played for real. I don't think you can buy any explosive bullets these days anyway although they would make the 45-70 more of a serious contender. BTW using a M203 grenade launcher( if that was what you were trying to infer) is probably just as terminal as what will be left after the Hippo finishes his buisness with you. Explosives close to you is a big NO NO. You must cleanse your mind of such thoughts! Most African countries frown on Bwanas with explosives these days anyway. What headstamp you gonna use? 45-70 Plus?, 45-70 Overkill? Good luck blowing a Hippo's head off without one.
Darn its hard keeping you guys focused ON THE TASK AT HAND. Doesn't anyone read and FOLLOW DIRECTIONS ANYMORE? -Rob
I'm just pulling your leg!-Rob

Who said anything about explosives Rob!!

Is that SL10 ready for business yet or what??

I have a few "items" that need attention....

600 BOLT GUN FOR ME(TILL THE 700 IS READY)...This pic aggravates me with the revolver in the forehead,man,these wimps shouldnt be handling guns of this nature if they cant hold on tight!It wont be funny if he gets hurt or drops it...I shoot mine (50-110 5" with 600s at 1400) and you just need to hold on-damnit!...

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Seems the perfect-er solution is a hybrid rifle/wheel gun. Modify a version of this 50-110 magnum research BFR with a 18 or 20" barrel and rifle stock for heavy fat solid bullets with the quickest follow up shots...450 grain solids @ 2100

Macifej- No SL-10 yet. Have to get the shop rewired and three phase converter installed. Its ordered but Haas says delievery is 60 days. Should be operational in two months.
BTW-What else is gonna Blow off a Hippo's head maybe I mis-understood you.
SAFARIKID- You are one CRAZY DUDE! I LIKE YOU! YOU NEED A 12GA FH.-Rob

I know I should stay out of this, because in reality I could care less what ANY of you choose to hunt with, but here goes.

To Robgunbuilder:

Question #1= If the 600OK is by and large the only sensible stopper why would you not be carrying one on your elephant hunt?

Question #2= What did the Rhodesian SAS soldiers use?
Im guessing AK-47's or the like.
I would imagine they didn't have 600 OK's

So soldier's with a 30 caliber weapon took on the challenge and presumably many more lived than died, if any ever were killed at all.

I guess the name "Over Kill" says it all

KC Carlin- Answer #1. I was hunting Ele, I like double rifles. Didn't think I needed the .600Ok. Didn't have it with me. Doubles are much better than 45-70 Marlins after all.
#2. Read earlier post- Military shotguns with Slugs or 00 Buckshot were preferred. Ever seen one or shot one?
Whats your point ?-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
KC Carlin- Answer #1. I was hunting Ele, I like double rifles. Didn't think I needed the .600Ok. Didn't have it with me. Doubles are much better than 45-70 Marlins after all.
#2. Read earlier post- Military shotguns with Slugs or 00 Buckshot were preferred. Ever seen one or shot one?
Whats your point ?-Rob

No I have never seen a "military shotgun".
Of course I have never shot one.
When I was a Marine they were hidden in the back of the Armory for only the select few who could handle the AWESOME power that they dealt out.
They only were taken out on moonless nights to unleash the fury on targets after the illumination grenades were shot in the air by the mere mortal Marines.
It was rumored that the "military shotguns" were assigned a secret number of "870" to identify it.

All kidding aside my point is simple.
Hunting is under attack from alot of different fronts.
Why fight amongst ourselves about choice of calibers?
If a guy wants to hunt elephant or buffalo or coues deer with a 45-70 and his PH and or guide is OK with it, should it really bother you?

Like I said in my earlier post I should have stayed out of this for I have no desire to own or hunt with a 45-70 at this time.

Thanks, KC

Actually I carried a Stevens M77E and was quite pleased with it. I saw a few SF M870's and thought they were pretty good.
Every time G&A publishes this crap a bunch of BOZO's deceide to go give it ba try themselves. They wound or lose a boatload of game and the do gooders deceide to stop the rest of us from hunting for "humane" reasons.
I am simply saying a 45-70 isn't a DG cartridge period. It's amazing to me how many people can't or won't understand the difference. In any event I'm getting tired of trying to explain it and used this little scenario to provide comic relief.-Rob

Well,
I have two of the three firearms on the list right now and the third is being built (with a 26" barrel) as I type this.

If I had but one to choose and had all three in my possession, it would be the 600 OK. If I had to choose from the two already in my safe, I think I would go with my S&W 500. Why? I think I could get on-target and the shot off more quickly and accurately with my revolver than my M1895 - 10 years of hunting with a S&W 629 then a Ruger SRH made me a pretty accurate point-shooter.

The pistoleros are starting to show in the poll ( 20 pistol to 27, 45-70). Frankly, if I had to choose between the 45-70 and a 500S&W, I'd take the pistol myself. Bigger bullet diameter and equivalent power.-Rob