quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
MRLexma:

This is why the old time solo elephant hunters generally took the biggest doubles they could find and handle into the jungles after tembo



No they did not, dependent on historical timeline there is good evidence to support the fact that they took multiple shot, small bore bolt rifles to do their ele shooting with

What is telling though is that most of these small bore users did not advocate for their use in sport hunting of ele !

Nope, ALF, you gotta read more carefully. Nearly all of the elephant hunters of old - with some notable exceptions, such as Bell, Neumann and Stigand - preferred big bore doubles for hunting tembo in the jungles - as I said.

In the black powder era, there was no other option, of course. But even in the nitro era, the use of small bores on elephant was a short-lived fad. Nitro was new, and many hunters thought that high velocity made up for lack of bullet diameter and weight. But most if not all elephant hunters with any brains soon realized that this was not true.

Open savanna hunting was another matter, of course.

My votes:

45-70 = NO

500 S&W = NO

600 OK = NO

IF I were to put myself in that position I would not consider doing so with a weapon that I didn't have extensive experience with.

If my ego was needing a boost, and I chose to play I would take my 375.

The 375 has accounted for its share of hippos, so whether or not it is up to the task wouldn't be the question, but am I?


KC

Here's the rub with the poll - you will get only one shot.

Hippos may be big, but they can move fast. Roughly 10 yards a second. Unless you are dealing with a high cyclic rate rifle (not a choice here), chances are you will get only one aimed shot with any of the choices listed.

Go big or go home - in a baggie.

If only one shot, here is my choice.


If he can still move forward, may be he will get tangled up with the gun carrage.

Keith

Guys- Read the directions and think carefully about the scenario. You don't GET another weapon choice other than the three listed to vote on. Your only other choice is to deceide not to vote. Some of you are starting to get to the answer and some are not. -Rob

Rob,

If his mouth is open you aim for the back half of the roof of his mouth. Precise location on the back half of the roof of his mouth is determined by your angle of orientation to his mouth.

I hope you guys all realize what a massive target a hippo's brain is. It is about the size of a tennis ball!

This entire thread is yet another AR demonstration of mental masterbation.

More precisely- Big walnut! They are not too bright. -Rob

I'd like to sign up for an evening of fine dining, drink, and a round or two of Hippo Roulette please! (I'll be bringing my own rifle though - thank you)

I would choose my 600 OK, no doubt about it. Not really much of a choice with basically one shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Tembo:

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
The Rhodesian SAS used toplay a rather dangerous game called Hippo Roulette to test the courage of a braggart during the Rhodesia-Zambia conflict. Basically, to prove his bravado the soldier sat directly in a active Hippo's path between him and the water at night and waited for the Hippo to appear. Either the Hippo killed him or he killed the Hippo. They could choose any suitable military weapon except a beltfed. The African version of Pistols at dawn. It was a full 10 sphincter experience as I'm told as things happened fast at very close range..
The question is what would you rather have in your hands when the Hippo comes and he's coming fast and won't stop. A 45-70 lever with fast multiple shots? a .600Ok bolt gun? or a 500 S&W pistol? Choose wisely!

Stirring shit, are we?????????? This thread is worthless as tits on a boar hog and should be locked.

What is it with you always wanting threads you don't like locked? Don't like it, don't read. Threads like this are fun even if they never actually would come to fruition.

It surprises me how many folks are afraid of the 600OKs recoil and assume shot recovery time will be slow….

I just got back from the range and shot my 600 from the bench nine times and suffer no ill effects….

My loads were in the 2000 fps range and I did not use a recoil shield, lead sled, or any other type of recoil reduction device (not being macho, I’m just stating that you don’t’ need em)….

With a properly set up rifle and with the X-Brake it’s a real pussy cat when fired at NE velocities….

Having fired both hot loaded Marlin 45-70s (1895CB 405@2000) and the 600, I think the 600 is more comfortable to shoot…

I’ve not killed any animals with the 600 yet, but I have with the 45-70….

I’ve found that the 45-70 will punch a nice neat hole through about anything and that’s about it….

But the 600 has to be seen in action to be believed…..

On inanimate targets (DWJ, fist sized holes in earthen back stops, etc...) its destructive capabilities are without peer...

I can only imagine what it would do to flesh (Rob and Safarikid could tell you first hand)

Hippos, bears, aliens, monsters, dinosaurs, what ever….

I’d put the 600 up against anything…

My only stipulation is that I’d be allowed to wear a rain slicker of some sort because at close range with softs I’d guarantee you would get covered with Hippo guts….

Matt V.

I didn't vote because the poll is lacking a vote for none of the above!

The guns listed are about as useful for a close range hippo charge stopper, and a condom with the same size hole in each end! The 600 is the only one that qualifies at all, and in a bolt rifle, you will get one shot, just like the rest. A 470NE,500NE, or 577NE double would make far more sense!

............. R.I.P.

.........For those wondering where the brain on a hippo is...... M.S . in Death by the Ton gives a pretty good description of where it is ......

MacD37- You keep missing the point! In a close range Hippo, Lion, Ele , Buff charge exactly what makes you think you will have time for more than one shot? Thats what at least five PH's including Johan Caliz have told me who all have had experience with close range charges. I've personally had one with a wounded Buff. I got one shot off( I had a double too). PH got none!Despite popular belief,most of us are not skilled enough to ever get off more than one shot especially when scared to death. Just watch all those stupid Lion charge videos. If you have only one shot wouldn't you not want to stop it and NOW? Do you think recoil matters at that instant? The point is the vast majority of hunters here would choose a STOPPING rifle over a PISSING-OFF rifle.
AS YOU have said before, a DGR should be able to start and stop the fight. A 45-70 can start the fight but won't be very usefull if it needs to be stopped except maybe against a charging Impala. It's not a DGR. Some People like stunts and thats OK with me. Shooting Dangerous game with a 45-70 is simply a stunt. Nothing more.
Postscript- According to the great Pano Calavrias, Mark Sullivan and he have actually played Hippo Roulette in Tanzania after a heavy evening of drinking. I don't doubt it either.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
According to the great Pano Calavrias, Mark Sullivan and he have actually played Hippo Roulette in Tanzania after a heavy evening of drinking.

Unfortunately, both Pano and Sullivan survived.

George

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
According to the great Pano Calavrias, Mark Sullivan and he have actually played Hippo Roulette in Tanzania after a heavy evening of drinking.

Unfortunately, both Pano and Sullivan survived.

George

Where is that one plucky hippo when you need him?

The poll is very simple and there is only one correct answer of the three choices offered:

600OK

Captain Obvious strikes again.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
According to the great Pano Calavrias, Mark Sullivan and he have actually played Hippo Roulette in Tanzania after a heavy evening of drinking. I don't doubt it either.-Rob

I wonder how manay rounds of UNDERLOADED NE the amazing mark had to put into that hippo calf, or did someone pay to shoot wound it first?

73% say NO to the 45-70 and 72% say yes to the .600Ok. The very interesting thing is the 27% WHO WOULD FACE A FULL BOOGEY NO QUARTER HIPPO CHARGE with a 45-70. I think It means we have much work to do here on this forum.-Rob

Actually, it is sort of a no brainer. Nix the 45-70 for reasons given, so that leaves the 500 S&W, and the 600 OK. The big revolver is too much for most of us to handle with the given recoil unless one has a lot of time to practice and almost always requires a two handed hold. The 600 OK loaded with 900 gr solids at 2100-2300 fps has a reasonable recovery time, if there is ever a chance for a second shot.
The charge of the hippo with its head down is not that difficult, but the mouth open charge is a big problem at least for me. Where do you expect to find the brain? And you can't see the ears unless it was possible to get a slightly quartering shot. My choice would be a frontal chest shot and hope you catch the boiler room. Hippos hit hard in the heart-lung area don't seem to have the fight of the buff.
My choice is definitely the 600 OK so one can use the return flight tickets to fly home.

Dak

it's not work you have to do on this forum. it's simple in this situation. you either brain the animal or you don't. no body shot is gonna stop a hippo from even 30 yards out. in Mark sullivan's tape on one of the first hippo charges, his client hits the hippo dead on in the head and missed the brain by what later appears to be a couple inches at best. it pretty much did NOTHING. you either hit the brain or not and ALL of the firearms listed will do that, in fact, you keep talking about how horrible a hot loaded 45/70 is, and i agree, but you don't need it loaded that hot with hardcasts or punch bullets, and neither does the pistol to reach the brain. i voted for all 3 and if i was decent with the 600OK i'd use it but i'd use all the above and i shoot pistols better than any rifle at this point so i wouldn't feel bad using it either, obviously with moderate hard cast loads.

not long ago there was a stopping of a brown bear by two moose hunters with a .44 mag. shot it straight on in the face and it spined it. dropped like a sack of taters and blew off a substantial portion of the face. did a better job than any 500 nitro would've in the chest from that close range and did just as good of a job as a 500 would've done in the cns.

Tradmark, you're correct it is a brain shot or you're done and all 3 with proper bullets and shot placement will reach the brain. I have watched a few of Sullivans videos and he brains them with 600 Nitro, well a 600 is not needed for that shot placement...

well, the charge i'm talking about he uses a 450/400 and it has roughly 1200 fpe less than is client's rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
I have watched a few of Sullivans videos and he brains them with 600 Nitro, well a 600 is not needed for that shot placement...

not EXACTLY a 600NE ... well, that is, not loaded to 900gr at 1950 ... (or 1850) .. more like 1600

still awesome, but not "As advertised"...

If you hit the brain while shooting the Hippo in the mouth ,your absolutely right in that any one of the cartridges will work. So would a .22LR. But what if your 3 inches off? Here is the secret. The wound channel of the .600Ok is probably 5 times as wide as the 45-70. Particularily with Hard Cast bullets! Those 1-1.5inch wide smokin balls of lead out of the .600OK leave beer can sized shredded meat to the sides of them as they pass through flesh and bone, with shrapnel moving off in all directions. You have probably never seen anything like it. Ask Jeffe to post the Hydraulicly killed deer photos! The margin of error is WAY WAY WAY on the side of the 600Ok in reality. That Margin goes down with Caliber. A.500NE for example IS NOT the stopper a .600OK is and never ever will be.Period! It is still a hell of a better stopper than any 45-70. period! You don't have to hit the brain,you just need to get near it. How near, I don't know! They didn't call these things STOPPERS for nothing. This is a lesson that apparantly was learned 100 years ago and unlearned by some just recently. -Rob

GRAPHIC...

This is a picture of a doe, shot at about 60yards, by Rob with a .585 nyati.. 750gr woodliegh, 2350

Impact was center of mass, that is, IN the ribs, it is clearly evident.

she split from sternum to tail... guts fell out on the grounds, quivered and died..

there was NO, repeat NO cutting done to create this photo ... and I had the same thing happen on a sow last march ... looked gut shot, bullet holes throw ribs

it's a somewhat "loaded" question, the best answer is hit it with the biggest caliber, heaviest bullet, at the max velocity...and head on. My last day in Vietnam was spent on OP George, and my ATL shot an asian buffalo at about 200 yards broadside with my M-203 and an HE round. Blew a hole about six inches in diameter clean thru it. Dropped on the spot, DOI. I have always regarded that as the ultimate DGR, even though it is a single shot.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
If you hit the brain while shooting the Hippo in the mouth ,your absolutely right in that any one of the cartridges will work. So would a .22LR. But what if your 3 inches off? Here is the secret. The wound channel of the .600Ok is probably 5 times as wide as the 45-70. Particularily with Hard Cast bullets! Those 1-1.5inch wide smokin balls of lead out of the .600OK leave beer can sized shredded meat to the sides of them as they pass through flesh and bone, with shrapnel moving off in all directions. You have probably never seen anything like it. Ask Jeffe to post the Hydraulicly killed deer photos! The margin of error is WAY WAY WAY on the side of the 600Ok in reality. That Margin goes down with Caliber. A.500NE for example IS NOT the stopper a .600OK is and never ever will be.Period! It is still a hell of a better stopper than any 45-70. period! You don't have to hit the brain,you just need to get near it. How near, I don't know! They didn't call these things STOPPERS for nothing. This is a lesson that apparantly was learned 100 years ago and unlearned by some just recently. -Rob

Absolutely correct.......

Lots of guys who shot lots more beasties than any of us ever will, in much more primitive conditions, without any back-up....chose big muzzle-loading bangers!! 2,4,6,& 8 bore black powder, round ball thumpers. I'll take any of those in a new rifle before I'd want a 45-70 or 600OK (sorry Rob) if toe to toe on a hippo or whatever. The concept is the same. Big pellet = big hole.

None of the above, I would set up several claymore's along the track..simple..

ISS would rather dig a huge deep pit and cover it with sticks and grass!!!

that's great, a pic of a deer. anyway, it was learned back in the days of complete crap bullets, borderline poweders, weak steel, unreliable round etc etc etc etc. never once think for a second that anyone thinks a 45/70 has the power of a 600OK, then again, what does? then again, a hippo can take a hell of alot more smashing than a deer, it only outweighs it by about 50/1.

so.....still waiting for that answer on what makes a stopper, a .458 sure won't do anything like that to a deer and the solids damn near every PH would have you use sure as hell don't make a wound channel 5x's larger than a hardcast 45/70, in fact most of the round nose solids make less of a wound channel.

so now it's a .585, a .577, a 600 OK or it's not a stopper?

why doesn't someone show me the wound channel comparision of a 600OK and a 458wm on actual dangerous game?

I,m trying to find my ballistic gelatin pics of the .458wM vs .600Ok. The difference was enourmous of course. I have shot a hell of a lot of deer and I can tell you I never saw a .458 wm soft point do that kind of damage. It wasn't until we started shooting things with.577NE's,Nyati's .600Ok,s that we saw damage like that. Would a 2 Bore do better? Probably, but not by much.
It's all relative. The bigger the bullet the bigger the wound channel and the wider the margin for error becomes. Personally, I don't consider a .458 win mag a reliable stopper. That level probably starts at the.470 NE, 500 NE range. But thats my personal opinion.-Rob

I'm guessing a 2-Bore, whether round ball, or FN would do less damage on deer than the 600 OK. Moves too slow - probably make a nice clean drainhole through and keep on going til it finds a really large tree. Besides, who's gonna carry a 25+ lb rifle through heavy cover looking for Bambi!?! (I might sit in a lawn chair and wait for Dumbo or Hippo to wander by..... )

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
I,m trying to find my ballistic gelatin pics of the .458wM vs .600Ok. The difference was enourmous of course. I have shot a hell of a lot of deer and I can tell you I never saw a .458 wm soft point do that kind of damage. It wasn't until we started shooting things with.577NE's,Nyati's .600Ok,s that we saw damage like that. Would a 2 Bore do better? Probably, but not by much.
It's all relative. The bigger the bullet the bigger the wound channel and the wider the margin for error becomes. Personally, I don't consider a .458 win mag a reliable stopper. That level probably starts at the.470 NE, 500 NE range. But thats my personal opinion.-Rob

Bigger diameter solids will certainly make a bigger hole, but with a 6000 pound animal that can absorb the energy one will not see the kind of destruction that was seen with the 100 pound Deer..

Hey Rob!

What kind of ME does a full tilt 600OK load make?

As obvious that the .600 is the only sane answer, it is also obvious that the .600 OK is by far an ideal cartridge for the average Joe. When close to 30% are more scared by the weight and recoil from the .600, than of a charging hippo, some pondering is speaked for.

Taylor loved his .600 close up for the big ones, but had a man to carry it for him, while he himself carried a lighter gun. And good gunbearers are really not what they used to be. Their willingness to die for their bwana has somehow crumbeled.

Nothing wrong with a .600 today, it is the shortness of good gunbearers that really makes it an out of-the-question-gun.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
..
It's all relative. The bigger the bullet the bigger the wound channel and the wider the margin for error becomes.

Bigger diameter solids will certainly make a bigger hole, but with a 6000 pound animal that can absorb the energy one will not see the kind of destruction that was seen with the 100 pound Deer..

(changing the emphasis to the correct phrase)
if the 600 overkill demonstrates LESS effect on hippo vs deer, this statement is in SPADES for the 45/70, and you prove rob's point

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
that's great, a pic of a deer. ..... never once think for a second that anyone thinks a 45/70 has the power of a 600OK, then again, what does?

then again, a hippo can take a hell of alot more smashing than a deer, it only outweighs it by about 50/1.

,...
why doesn't someone show me the wound channel comparision of a 600OK and a 458wm on actual dangerous game?

the picture demonstrates the potential of overkill

section 1: we agree that the 45/70 isn't ever going to deliver the power that a 600 OK does..

section 2: we totally agree that a hippo takes more smashing than a deer, and no one has seen a 45/70 load do the amount of damage to a deer as the nyati did. QED the 45/70 will NOT make a huge impression upon the hippo, or about 1/50 (your supposistion) of what it does on a deer

section 3: danger trap to fall into. "on dangerous game" is an endless exercise with an escape clause .. you of course mean on "simular sized animals", as the unprovability of "on dangerous game" and the UNPREDICTABLE nature of those shots make it alegorical references, not imperical.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
If you hit the brain while shooting the Hippo in the mouth ,your absolutely right in that any one of the cartridges will work. So would a .22LR. But what if your 3 inches off? Here is the secret. The wound channel of the .600Ok is probably 5 times as wide as the 45-70. Particularily with Hard Cast bullets! Those 1-1.5inch wide smokin balls of lead out of the .600OK leave beer can sized shredded meat to the sides of them as they pass through flesh and bone, with shrapnel moving off in all directions. You have probably never seen anything like it. Ask Jeffe to post the Hydraulicly killed deer photos! The margin of error is WAY WAY WAY on the side of the 600Ok in reality. That Margin goes down with Caliber. A.500NE for example IS NOT the stopper a .600OK is and never ever will be.Period! It is still a hell of a better stopper than any 45-70. period! You don't have to hit the brain,you just need to get near it. How near, I don't know! They didn't call these things STOPPERS for nothing. This is a lesson that apparantly was learned 100 years ago and unlearned by some just recently. -Rob

I can second what Rob says & Jeff's pic of his deer show. To date, the Spannish Ram, wild boar, & deer I have taken w/ the 600ok & 900gr Woodleigh SP's all showed a wound channel that just has to be seen to be beleived. I just can't overstate the amount of destruction this round imparts to an animal. While I don't have pics like Jeff's deer, the ram was the only lengthwise shot I've been able to take to test total penetration and tissue damage. It was a facing-away TX heart shot. The bullet hit him just to the left of the bullseye, pulverized the rear hip, opened a softball sized hole on the left gut area pushing many of the entrails out the hole & into the surrounding trees, gelitanized the entire path through the animal, crushed the front shoulders, & ended up in the lower skull behind the jaw. It measured 1.5" in diameter and still weighs 880grs. I've got a pic of the bullet somewhere. In the words of my giude upon reaching the animal---"JESUS CHRIST"

quote:

To date, the Spannish Ram, wild boar, & deer I have taken w/ the 600ok & 900gr Woodleigh SP's all showed a wound channel that just has to be seen to be beleived.

Joe,

I forgot that you had taken game with your 600 as well...

quote:

The wound channel of the .600Ok is probably 5 times as wide as the 45-70.

Rob,

I think that sums up the whole 45-70 as an effective DGR nicely...

The 45-70 may penetrate enough to reach or pass through the vitals (so would a FMJ 223)....but...

It could never leave the path of destruction that the larger & faster calibers can....the .510s,.550s,.585s,&.610s....

I went with the .600 OK. If only one shot is possible, than obviously I would want the biggest and heaviest bullet -- and a bit of luck!