quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

There is a lot of significant information about Israel, history and present, especially the relationship with the USA.

For expediency I'll single out one (of many) recent video which gives some history and brings that relevancy into today:

https://youtu.be/oQJt8dwvs78?si=9x3QqmsobUmu5UPT

The US-Israel relationship explained

Perhaps the most significant aspect of the relationship is briefly described starting at 7:51 in the video:

So, this link starts at 7:51, same video:

https://youtu.be/oQJt8dwvs78?s...e_21hgh9XOpvtK&t=471

Here's more info from Wikipedia. I skipped down to "Biblical interpretations"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...ical_interpretations

There are many sources of info on this.

The End Times, Second Coming, Rapture, Biblical prophecy, fundamentalism, etc.

The prime reason there is so much political pressure is because of Biblical belief.

IOW, politicians must support Israel to get elected.

All the conversations I've had recently with my fundamentalist friends and relatives and some I don't count as friends boil down to they believe we are in the End Times, with all the associated implications.

Granted, I live in the Bible Belt of the USA, and a disproportionate number of zealots live here.

And most importantly, they are okay with it. Some are more than okay with it. They find all the answers they need in such belief. For one collateral thing, that's why MAGA exists and the basis for Trump support.

Think about it.

Suppose, based on lots of evidence, that the real reasons for Trumpism and support for Israel's genocide on Palestinians (infidels) is because fundamental Christians want to fulfill the prophesy of the Bible - help it along - so when the Big Daddy in the Sky decides to send his Son back, he will have a soft and welcoming landing spot on earth.

Imagine that - justifications for the means to an End, war, genocide, based on an ancient middle east religion, specifically a book in the Bible, Revelations, a prophesy practically impossible to decipher accurately, a fantasy, written by a madman about 2000 years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

There is something important that everyone needs to understand. Trump's Christian supporters understand it very well, innately.

This is the unspoken which should be said out loud: Fundamental Christians and Trump have an apocalypticism pact, and they are leveraging the country and the world. Trump has his reasons and the Christians have theirs. Somehow they mesh, probably because Trump is conning them and of course they want to be conned. Whatever the different reasons are, they are both sick. It's like a suicide pact for the nation.

It is zero-sum. The premise is that it's the final battle between good and evil - a Biblical Prophesy. Of course, it is essential that Trump paints evil for the True Believers, and most certainly something other than himself. And they buy it.

Trump uses lots of coded wording in his speeches. One he repeats often is "This is the Final Battle". Christians understand it to be referring to the Armageddon battle, mentioned one time in the Bible, in Revelations. Trump is making an allegory, not the actual site of the supposed final battle in the Bible, although that may be included. The battle Trump is referring to is his political and legal battle, and of course if he wins, he can fix it all, including foremost keeping himself out of jail.

He's painting himself the mighty warrior in the existential fight of good vs evil, and he is the chosen one, the only one who can win for the Christians.

You don't even have to imagine that. Just look at his words.

https://religiondispatches.org...apocalyptic-promise/

DON’T SLEEP ON TRUMP’S CPAC SPEECH CALLING FOR ‘THE FINAL BATTLE’: THIS WAS SOUTHERN STRATEGY AS APOCALYPTIC PROMISE


Trump's coded message in "the final battle":
https://www.google.com/search?...sclient=gws-wiz#ip=1

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

There's one thing for sure - Trump painting himself as good, with good intentions, and the belief that's true and reality says all that's needed to know about all of MAGA, Trumpism, and mostly the GOP, and the future they envision for the nation and world, and their distinction of good vs evil, right and wrong.

How about the Maddow blog for a dose of truth and reality?

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-m...al-battle-rcna133941

Why it matters that Trump keeps talking about the ‘Final Battle’
When Donald Trump tells his followers that the 2024 race is "the final battle," it's a phrase with deeper meaning for a specific group of voters.

(Excerpt)

But what matters about the campaign commercial is the audio that plays while the Republican is seen walking:

“This is the final battle. With you at my side, we will demolish the Deep State. We will expel the war mongers from our government. We will drive out the globalists; we will cast out the communists, Marxists, and fascists. We will throw off the sick political class that hates our country. We will route the fake news media, and we will liberate America from these villains once and for all.”

At first blush, this might not seem especially remarkable. Trump has already served one term in the White House, and he expects to win a second in the fall. As such, from his perspective, it stands to reason that the 2024 race will be his “final” fight for elected office.

But there’s a bit more to it than that. The Washington Post’s Philip Bump had a terrific piece along these lines a couple of months ago:

If your immediate point of reference for that [“final battle”] phrase wasn’t to the Book of Revelation’s depiction of the apocalypse, you are probably not a Trump supporter. (A 2012 poll from PRRI found that the religious group most likely to say that the end times as predicted in Revelation would occur during their lives was evangelicals.)

Noting the invocation at a Trump rally in Iowa in November, Bump highlighted the rhetoric from a conservative Baptist preacher, who insisted that “lies, corruption, and propaganda are driving civilization to ruins.”

quote:

Originally posted by Grizzly Adams1:
just millions of people fixated on one guy, like birds in a flock. .

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Part of the problem is your view of reality isn’t the same as many others. You are like the Trumpites in that you are picking and choosing some items that are factual, some that are opinion, and synthesizing something you feel is reality.

First, saying that I'm like Trumpites is a great insult. I have to take exception.

And you are right about the picking and choosing some facts. I do it to be concise, not to twist reality.

Synthesizing definition: combine (a number of things) into a coherent whole. Things in my case are facts, evidence to a coherent reality.

The coherent reality, which is my premise, is that Christianity is first and foremost a doomsday/apocalyptic religion. All the rest pivots around that fundamental belief. It's inescapable. It has been that way from the beginning. It was toned down for centuries, but always the undertone, fired up again maybe 100 years ago. Preachers around here feed fodder off it.

If you are a Christian, there is no way you can feel Trump (or any politician) is godlike.

For Christians "feel" and belief run parallel. "Godlike" is not the belief; God-send is.

If you are of a predestination belief pattern, then a higher power has predetermined everything. It defies pretty much all Christian theology, but some folks do… including nonchristians.

Yes they do, and yes it is.

Another way to look at it is why are some folks so desperately clinging to a man who does not do what they believe is important?

I suppose, by "important", you mean refraining from pussy grabbing and bragging about it, etc. In case you didn't understand my premise - the relationship is transactional. He and they exchange something (different) of value to each side. Need I define the "somethings" that each side gets in the exchange?

Maybe it has more to do with what the opposition has done and its absolute disregard for them?

I’m not in Dr. Easter’s boat that all democrats are bad. But given the way they have been behaving in the last couple decades I can see why he feels that way… and also why some leftists feel similarly regarding republicans.

Yea, well, "behavior" is the thing. Most democrats do not ID with the riots, the albatross that republicans hang around dem's necks. Most republicans do in fact ID with the doomsday/apocalypse, and their behavior reflects that.

Unfortunately the demonization of your opponents only serves to make the matter worse.

Demonization is what happens a lot with conservatives. It's not so much a liberal thing. Another word for it is de-humanizing. It's an essential step in christofascism or any fascism. It is one of the first steps in justifying the means to an end. What I'm doing for example is not demonization. For one thing "demon" has spiritual connotations. I'm agnostic, so I don't use those terms or ideas relating to humans, except I might have made a mistake, in a hurry at the time. If republicans/conservatives do stuff that could be construed demon-like, that's someone else's call. I don't believe in demons, or demonic. IMO, humans bare the sole responsibility for their actions, as a group or individually.

As a conservative, I’ve gotten an earful about how I’m a RINO because I don’t support Trump… even when I point out his non conservative views. They minimize those and make the comment that those points are relatively minimal, and then state I’m going to give it to the democrats.

Rationalization is a strong art-form among True Believers.

My point being is that politics is the art of making reasonable compromise. The democrats have not made a compromise in decades- they just continually move the definitions.

The religious right just won’t compromise.

So a lot of us are standing around constantly choosing a repugnant less bad choice. That Trump has finally annoyed me to the point of refusing to vote for him doesn’t mean I think Biden is any better… in Trump’s case many of his policies are good… but I can’t support him due to the other baggage and a suspicion that I’m going to be thrown under the bus anyhow by him. I know the democrats will do bad things, but that’s not enough to vote for a guy whose only point (to me) is that he’s not a democrat.

Lesser of bad is not a worthwhile argument to me. I'll pass. For one thing, in general, Liberals don't cherish the doomsday/apocalyptic dream, which is the root of the momentum in the MAGA movement, and they will take us all down with them, given what they want.

quote:

So, you can understand supporting him? If you can understand it, then please explain it. Lots of thoughtful people have considered it, and no whole answer has emerged, even from the supporters.

quote:

Trump is not even a Christian. He's a fake Christian.

~Ann

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:
Magine,

I find it very weird how obsessed you are with Christianity and who you believe is Christian or not. Or your obsession with 'cults', etc.

I don't recall you being so obsessed with 0bama and his claim to Christian status after being raised Muslim. You have decided

quote:

Trump is not even a Christian. He's a fake Christian.

You have no merit other than being ridiculously obsessed with Christianity and that you don't spread your obsession with others who have questionable claims such as 0bama.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
So, when does cult-like become cult?

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I don’t get your end of times correlation with Trump.

He’s not into warfare. He tends to capitulate as long as the other side feeds his ego… no war.

I’m not defending Trump in this, I’m stating that religion really doesn’t have a role here. Do some folks professing to live by Gods rules claim that supporting trump is godly? Yes. They are in doctrinal error, just like Naki is when he claims Jesus is a liberal.

You can find folks misusing god and religion. Happens a lot. Look at WWII Wehrmacht belt buckles… swastika and “gott mit uns”. Doesn’t make it Christian.

You are conflating the bad acts of some adherents to the religion.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
So, when does cult-like become cult?

depends on how open minded one is - there are many things that fit the role of a religion/cult that aren't even "religious" --antifa, humanism, tds, and maga for some examples -

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:
Steve, I totally understand. Media and politicians make a constant big deal out of things. Most people do not care about it though there are enough that do, like Magine. So much that they keep trying to convince such people that everyone is out to get them.

Divide and conquer!

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:
Magine,

I find it very weird how obsessed you are with Christianity and who you believe is Christian or not. Or your obsession with 'cults', etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Why are religious idiots supporting Trump?

He stands against every teaching religions glorify!

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
So, when does cult-like become cult?

depends on how open minded one is - there are many things that fit the role of a religion/cult that aren't even "religious" --antifa, humanism, tds, and maga for some examples -

That's not open-minded. It's BS.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
So, when does cult-like become cult?

depends on how open minded one is - there are many things that fit the role of a religion/cult that aren't even "religious" --antifa, humanism, tds, and maga for some examples -

That's not open-minded. It's BS.

yep, sounds like something a cult member would say in defense of their cult ---

I think the first rule of CultClub is
"We don't call it a cult"

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Wow, what a long, defensive post defining not being in a cult -

first rule of cultclub ....

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Wow, what a long, defensive post defining not being in a cult -

first rule of cultclub ....

Interpret it any way you want. I can't influence you in that.

But, I do have a choice in not letting you lead the conversation, between you and I, down a rabbit hole.

I exercise that choice by just not participating.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
So is scientific theory a doomsday cult?

A large number of scientists believe that at some point the universe will suffer an end due to energy loss (entropy)...

I didn't know there is a scientific theory of a doomsday cult. What you give as example isn't a theory relating to a cult of any sort. It's just a theory.

Humanists believe that they end when they die.

Quote from definition: Across the world, the number of non-religious people is growing all the time. It is estimated there are 1.1 billion people in the world who are religiously unaffiliated, which means they identify as atheists, agnostics or describe their religion as “nothing in particular.”

Humanists are non-religious people who strive to lead fulfilling, meaningful and ethical lives, using reason and empathy to guide their decisions and actions.

Humanists base their understanding of the world on reason and science, rejecting supernatural or divine beliefs.

Humanists reject all forms of racism and prejudice, and believe in respecting and protecting everyone’s human rights, including the right to freedom of religion and belief.

Humanists believe we have a responsibility to respect and care for one another and the natural world.

Agnostic: a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

Just because some muslims believe in sharia and the caliphate doesn't mean ALL muslims believe and that it is central to the religion (as it is practiced in any one place..) What's the difference between Dubai and Kabul?

To answer your question - geography I suppose.


Your issue is what some individuals who call themselves evangelical Christians and tell the rest of us to do... its kind of interesting what happens when someone who is reasonably versed in the bible (and believes it) gets into a discussion with folks like that. Usually it becomes quite respectful. Its when some person who has no respect for the other's point of view starts telling the other guy where it is going to be that it gets ugly.

It's not just the individuals. It's an organized power. And it extends into practically every corner and facet of life and culture in the USA, and beyond. It got Trump elected one time and may do it again. And I do in fact respect their worldview, just as I respect venomous snakes as species. It's inherently ugly specifically because of the End Times and rapture prophesy, and the self-fulfilling aspect. I'm not "telling" anyone where it is going. They are. They are explicit about it. And most importantly, it's not fringe. It's mainstream.

When your whole argument is that the religious person's beliefs are BS and not "reality" (and thus treating them like an ignorant child) and you use terms like that, no wonder folks who don't believe as you do take you as a crackpot.

It's not my whole argument. And I'm not treating them like an ignorant child. What they are doing IMO is much, much more malevolent than that. The foremost thing is that they don't deny the doomsday/apocalypse theology. It's exactly the opposite. They embrace it, whole.

I actually get the idea of a secular government...and agree with it. What I don't agree with is that it means that no religion in the public sphere.

Well, good, you "get it". So did the Founders. And, it's practically impossible for "no religion" in the public sphere. It's an inherent fact of practically everything in the USA, culture, society, life in general, politics, and so forth. It's been that way from the beginning and will continue. What needs to be understood is that there's religion, then there's a secular government, by design. Two things that shouldn't be conflated. There are many ways to conflate, but this thing with the end times worldview is a conflation of magnitude beyond all else.

If Ilhan Omar wants to take her oath of office on the Koran, fine.

If you would wish to just say you solemnly swear to do so, fine.

But don't say that my oath on the bible is just my invoking "sky daddy".

Oaths to abide the duties of Govt. office, and honor the constitution, and public service thereof, are really a declared promise and commitment to a secular form of government, as formed by the Founders. "Swearing" on the Bible or the Koran or any religious text, IMO is a conflation, and thus such oath is contradictory from the get-go.

quote:

Ignored post by jeffeosso posted 21 January 2024 05:29

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

Ignored post by jeffeosso posted 21 January 2024 05:29

quote:

Ignored post by jeffeosso posted 21 January 2024 06:23

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

Ignored post by jeffeosso posted 21 January 2024 06:23

IOW, rendered impotent insofar as I am concerned, just as TB40 and JTEX. De-nutted.