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I simply do not believe whole groups of people are evil. Both you and Lane completely dismiss the fact that the Palestinians have been living in Israel for thousands of years and have very legitimate complaints about being pushed off the land that they owned and the treatment that they have received from Israel. Neither side is free of guilt and peace will not come from displacing millions of people from their homeland. They have not given up after 75 years and they won't. Peace will only come to the ME through a diplomatic solution recognizing both sides right to exist. | |||
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Who's disagreeing with you? I'm not nor do I believe Doc is. I think you are putting words in our mouth. It's been said here several times that the Israelites hands aren't clean either,....right, true. We all agree the Palestinians have lived there for tens of thousands of years, right, true,.... So have the Jews. | |||
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A diplomatic solution is meaningless until the people involved are willing to coexist. We use eminent domain all the time in this country, sometimes to enable private industry in the name of economic development, so “fairness” isn’t a rationale either. I agree that there are good people in all groups, and that blaming all the Palestinians for the acts of Hamas is wrong, but similarly, I wouldn’t wait for more Jewish settlers to be kidnapped, raped, and murdered before I responded to a threat. The good Palestinians need to help put a stop to the violence- it’s not a unilateral action for Israel. | |||
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I'm very familiar with the Biblical background and story of the Jews, their place in the world and their relationships and coexistence with other cultures, but the level of hate and animosity felt for them around the globe still perplexes me. | |||
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I believe a solution beyond telling the Palestinians "tough shit, we will bomb you into oblivion and keep your land and you will learn to like it" is required. Israel has displaced millions of Palestinians and has millions more living in what are essentially open air prisons and under martial law for generations. Until the Palestinians have a place to call home, this shit will continue. Yes, the Jews have been there for thousands of years as well, but until they pushed out the Palestinians to create a "Jewish State", the area had recently been more stable. Under the Ottomans and the Brits Palestine was in relative peace, since 1948, not so much. | |||
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100%^^^
Been down that road a thousand times…trying to negotiate it again is an exercise in futility. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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And the violence will continue, then people like you will once again as the question "Why does this keep happening?" The answer could not be more obvious....the Palestinians will not stop until they have a home. | |||
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I have never asked why this keeps happening…I see why clearly. The two groups are incompatible. The best we could hope for is a benevolent country like the UAE, Jordan, Egypt, etc etc to relocate them. But looking at the wall between Eqypt and Gaza…I see no love, even from their kindred, for this group. Thus, the only other solution is to let the strongest survive. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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. . . and the next iteration of the Palestinian response will be stronger, better funded, more organized and enjoy broader support throughout the Middle East than the current. We can pretend that the history since 1948 is irrelevant but it is actually instructive. As Musk said, an eye for an eye strategy just means that eventually both sides are blind. Make no mistake, over the long term, the result of Israel’s current actions will be the loss of more Israeli lives. Mike | |||
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Interesting. Lane advocates genocide by the very people who were the victims of genocide. Lane is the human equivalent of the Oozlum bird. Mike | |||
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hey, mike .. if someone walks up to me, punches me in the faces, and then carnage ensues, isn't the first puncher guilty of assault? if you believe the old testament (while agnostic, i can read it as history) was Isreal (and then some) a jewish kingdom... funny, and it was only a thorough digital scan, the word "palestine" doesn't show up in the bible -- neither does "the levant" .. it's like, wow, the jews concurred that region thousands of year ... oh, let's just make it 2k - when the romans concurred "palestine" who did they treat with to settle things? oh, no palstinians were welcomed? Because they were syrians -- but, pray tell, of wise one, why will not arm countries take them in? crickets, i know .. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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So, to continue the conversation let's say both sides cease hostilities and negotiate a peaceful and binding solution assumed to be in good faith. Say a Two State Solution is agreed upon and this is said to be the end of the conflict. What is to be done when or if one side breaks the agreement? Does the US or the UN intervene to protect the agreement and punish the aggressor? | |||
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Lane Remember that the death of Jesus and his resurrection are the GREATEST EVER LIBERAL ACTS in history. When you hate liberals you hate Jesus. Remember that the US constitution was based on Liberal ideology. Read John Locke. Here is a quote I got from the web (not necessarily from Locke) "Anglo-American political, economic, and cultural power, which created, sustained, and globalized liberalism, are premised largely on Protestant understandings about authority, the individual, liberty, morality, and creativity." Separation of church and state is also central to the US Constitution & to Jesus' teachings. Lane is a cultural "Christian" and not a scriptural one. All Right wing cults are Cultural "Christians". The Southern Baptist Church is a major one.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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 Naki~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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yeah,yeah appeals to "Christianity" mean ZERO opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Naki - Your post is a very extreme oversimplification as to the founders desires. The US constitution was based on the Leviticus. The founders speak to it many, many times in the federalist paper. Read a book called "The 5000 Year Leap". It is written using the letters and communications between the founders as to why they said what they said and why they did what they did. (all listed and footnoted) They never once said "separation of church and state". They say, very specifically, There will be no state sponsored religion. However, they were all in line with America needs to be a spiritual nation. They just wouldn't argue about which following of Christianity should or shouldn't be followed. It's a fascinating read that will clarify the US Constitution and its creation. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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How many Comanche are burning people alive today?  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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In Texas or just in general?  Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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A fair question, one that needs to be answered before a true diplomatic solution can be achieved. I believe some security guarantees would need to be put in place, they usually are at the cessation of hostilities. I think the biggest stumbling block at the moment is the boundaries of any Palestinian state more than who guarantees the peace. If you are implying that the US should not get involved, I won't argue. Somehow we need to get back to both sides having a realistic hope for a peaceful and prosperous future. It is not realistic for this to continue, nor should the US taxpayer continue to foot the bill. Israel is the largest recipient of US foreign aid in the post WWII period and their Arab neighbors are not far behind. A bigger hammer has not worked for the last 75 years, I doubt it will going forward. | |||
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And are unwilling to compromise. They all want the exact same piece of real estate. No one (neighboring countries) wants to help out and offer land area to occupy. It would never be good enough even if it was offered. ~Ann   | |||
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That's all well and good as history may go, but doesn't substitute for the actual words of the Constitution, which says nothing about the US being a spiritual nation. The absence of such a clause is even more notable in light of the evidence you cite. Your author seemingly omits the fact that a number of the founders were atheists or non-Christians like Deists. But it doesn't matter what they were individually; what matters are the words of the First Amendment's Establishment Clause: "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion..." I see nothing spiritual in those words. | |||
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My MAIN POINT is that the constitution was written with LIBERAL values as the bed rock foundation. The intellectual climate of that time was PROGRESSIVE. It was FAR from conservative "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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I wouldn't say the US shouldn't get involved, as you mention we have been neck deep forever. Israel remains our one true ally against Islamic aggression in the region, not to mention the historical and religious ties to Israel that keep Saeeds underwear so tightly knotted. Bill Leeper and I were recently discussing a different topic and he mentioned in passing that he thought we couldn't go back to Afghanistan and repair our fuck up there. I disagree and suspect that sooner than later we'll have to. Afghanistan today is right where it was in about say 1998. When Turkey, Pakistan, the UAE and Oman dither, Israel won't. We know Saudi Arabia openly supports the Taliban all the while taking our aid. So we'll have to stay involved with Israel. I'm comfortable with it. But I think that means if we get both sides to stand down tomorrow and later The State of Palestine attacks Israel, the USA goes on the offensive in the Holy Land. On the flip side, if Israel breaks the treaty and attacks The Palestinian State, it may mean Iran attacks Israel, or Lebanon/ Syria/ Iran/ Jordan and Egypt attack Israel. Isn't that interesting!?!?!? I'm for peace Steve, I'm fairly certain Doc Lane is too, but when one side or the other go, "Off the Reservation" and Crazy horse is leading the war party, will we be comfortable delivering the consequences? America and The West have not been thus far. | |||
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awww, Steve said, correctly, but, back to you MAIN POINT{sic}, the US constitution could only be considered "liberal" (never progressive in the modern sense, that's just foolishness) in contemporaneous contemplation, as the concept of a "republic" was VERY new .. but, the english word you are looking for it's liberal or progressive(i couldn't imagine the founding fathers thoughts on what YOU consider to be progressive), it's radical and, by any student of history, a progression (see what i did there?) of the magna carta - The magna Carta - Signed in Runnymeade, with the King and retinue WALKING from Windsor Castle to Runnymeade to sign it - I've done exactly that walk, with intention, to "honor" (or humor my vanity) thrice https://maps.app.goo.gl/GMLLikayBvKXVbh37 just for the interest, i prefer to stay at the Sir Christopher Wren House/Hotel, right on the Thames, near Eton, but will stay in several places in "Windsor"/Eton/Slough, and, in my informed opinion, the best pies in southern England are at the Duchess of Cambridge pub - (there's another hotel I like to stay with, but the name changes every 3-4 years, basically it's across from Queen Vicky's statue) Anyway, you are trying to use modern definitions of words to define not-so-modern concepts - this is a fallacy of the undereducated, and is literally a hallmark warning in the study of History - which won't stand- the then concept of "liberal" meant without a king, and the extent other major republic was the Netherlands - I get it, english is hard as a 3rd or 4th language, but do try to keep up, and try to avoid neophyte mistakes opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Naki - from; "The 5000 Year Leap" In 1787, the very year the Constitution was written, that same Congress passed the "Northwest Ordinance". In it, they emphasized the essential need to teach religion in school. Here is how they stated it; Article 3; Religion, Morality and knowledge being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged. Religion - Which might be defined as "fundamental system of beliefs concerning mans origin and relationship to the cosmic universe as well as his relationship with his fellowmen." Morality - Which may be described as a "standard of behavior distinguishing right from wrong." Knowledge - Which is "an intellectual awareness and understanding of established facts relating to any field human experience or inquiry (ie, history, geography, science,etc). From Washington's farewell address; Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports...And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion ...Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail to the exclusion of religious principle. It is substantially true that virtue and morality is a necessary spring of popular government. These are not my words. These are the founders own. However, they don't ring of Liberal or Progressive values. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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That's interesting Steve. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Ordinance I don't see any conflict with those statements you quote with liberal or progressive values. I think your statement otherwise is embellishment with a belief that isn't in the quoted text. For example, Washington's speech. The constitution itself is secular, intentionally. That may logically mean it excludes "religion" and associated belief, but not the morals and virtue which overlap with secularism. Given the recent turn of events, his warning has new meaning; "let us with caution indulge the supposition"... that morality can be sustained WITH religion. We now have reason and experience to see that national morality can be perverted through the inclusion of religious principle supposition. Think of the KKK run amuck. Quote: "It is substantially true that virtue and morality is a necessary spring of popular government." It is also substantially true that virtue and morality are challenged when a populist government emerges. What is the check and balance when the virtue and morality pendulum swings astray? Religion or the secular constitution? "Let us with caution indulge the supposition" that religion maintains or corrects virtue and morality when it is the culprit in the disruption. A fox guarding the hen house type of thing. ************* Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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The whole "Separation of Church and State" argument is nothing more than Thomas Jefferson making the statement that (at the time) were 7 official state religions. Connecticut- Congregational church Delaware - Christian Faith Maryland - Christian Faith Massachusetts - Congregational Church New Hampshire - Protestant Faith New Jersey - Protestant Faith South Carolina - Protestant Faith. Not that there "shouldn't be one" It was his words that the Federal Government, couldn't, and shouldn't choose one over the other. But the states are free to do so. ME - You should really get this book. It is an unbelievable book of the founding of America. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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The churches couldn't agree on the form and details of the newly formed government, and they never will. It's not their prerogative in this country and hopefully never will be. Instead, the Founders left them out, intentionally, but protected them from govt interference. They didn't want them to interfere in govt either. ************* Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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People still do not get it. I continue to point out the difference between CULTURAL religion (which is societal) and SPIRITUAL faith (which is very personal and not at all rational). Organised institutional religion like the Catholic church during the reformation, was so far away from the scriptural teachings of Jesus. It was an institution of political power. The edicts were about controlling the minds of the masses. The same with cults and mega churches like Jehovah's Witness, LDS and the Southern Baptists. They have core doctrines that are non-negotiable and used to control the congregation. They follow strict norms which are enforced. People who fail to adhere are excommunicated and separated from their families. They all included racial segregation in their doctrines. The founding fathers were a diverse group and, as already mentioned, many / most were not religious. Benjamine Franklin was a radical progressive who would be a fun guy to have around today! People try and spin stuff anyway they wish and try to rewrite history. But the truth is that Church attendance is declining in many parts of the world. It has been declining very rapidly in Europe since WW2. Today Kiwis in NZ are about 5% to 7% church goers. Even among Europeans it is around 10% or less. Traditional church going communities in rural NZ have just stopped going to church. Many smaller churches have shut down & some have been converted into pubs, cafes, homes etc.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Benjamin Franklin - "Here is my creed; I believe in one God, the Creator of the universe. That he governs it by providence. That he ought to be worshiped. That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting his conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion." (Smyth, writings of Benjamin Franklin, 10:84) Doesn't sound like a radical to me... I always bring receipts. Naki - Buy the book. You cannot change history buy simply wishing it so. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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Have you read his autobiography? Interesting last chapter. Quote from Steve Ahrenberg "Doesn't sound like a radical to me..." "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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