quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
As long as the GOO continues down this path away from the middle, Dems are going to wing more elections.

Just like here in NC.

What is goo?

What the GOP has become
Muck

quote:

Trump did violate his oath.

But so did others who also have some similar responsibilities.

Wrong again. Under the Constitution, the VP has authority to act if the president dies or is incapacitated. The speaker of the House only has authority if both president and VP die or are incapacitated.

Neither VP nor the Speaker has authority just because they don't like the job the president is doing.

As we have established w Federal law and historical precedent only the President has direct control over the DC Guard.

Only the President can mobilize the DC Guard.

Only the President has the power as Commander and Chief to defend the Capitol. It is his prime responsibility to defend the Constitution and our Federal government.

Heym, why do you insist on not telling the whole story?
The command of the DC guard has been in the hands of the sec of defense now for decades. The sec of D, does NOT require a presidential order to enact them. Command is exercised without the president. You just cant seem to acknowledge that for some reason.

No it is not. Go read my original post. The Sec of Defense is not responsible for mobilization.

His role is limited. I have explained that w citation already.

The fault and obligation was Trump.

Oh, and the DC Guard, unlike any other Guard or Army, can be deputized as police.

§ 49–409. President to be Commander-in-Chief.

The President of the United States shall be the Commander-in-Chief of the militia of the District of Columbia.

There was nothing stopping Trump from using the DC Guard to prevent the breach when the mob formed in front of the police line or mobilizing the DC Guard to the Capitol when the line was hit.

Through the Commanding General, the Secretary of Defense shall command the military operations, including training, parades and other duty, of the National Guard while in militia status. Subject to the direction of the President as Commander-in-Chief, the Secretary may order out the National Guard under title 39 of the District of Columbia Code to aid the civil authorities of the District of Columbia.

The above is controlling language from the Executive Order delegating to Sec of Defense. Note it says Subject to direction as President as Commander and Chief.

It does not transfer the President’s power not obligation to anyone else.

Go to DC NG recruiting page, among other sites.
The power was delegated to the sec of defense 30+yrs ago.
The sec of def has sole authority to approve use of the DC guard. That or you had better bring charges up to the Guards web page for false recruiting practices.

Go back and watch the house hearings Heym. The Sec of defense and sec of the army were in communications with the DC chief of police, asking about deploying the guards. She, the chief said not yet, I dont know where all my people are.
This is on J6 without authority of the pres. What you claim, they could not have even talked to her without Trumps approval. The DC police chief lost her job over it. This all played out on live TV. You are quoting old data.

Incapacitated or incapable.

Supposedly Trump was moping and refusing to talk to anyone.

I’m not saying Trump is off because someone else should have made the call. I’m saying Trump failed… then Pence failed… then Pelosi failed. If Trump had done his job, it’s a moot point for Pence and Pelosi. If Trump failed, and Pence had stepped up, it’s a moot point re Pelosi.

As it is, while Trump was responsible first and foremost, you can’t excuse Pence or Pelosi (or SecDef, or the guard CG) for failing to live up to their oaths as well- and yes, 3 of the 5 are Trump administration members.

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:

quote:

Trump did violate his oath.

But so did others who also have some similar responsibilities.

Wrong again. Under the Constitution, the VP has authority to act if the president dies or is incapacitated. The speaker of the House only has authority if both president and VP die or are incapacitated.

Neither VP nor the Speaker has authority just because they don't like the job the president is doing.

He talked to his party’s House leader who had called for help.

Trump dismissed him.

Your excuse making is not working.

The VP and the Speaker does not have the power over the DC Guard.

VP Pence did his job. That is why he was targeted by the mob, and Strunk mused hanging VP Pence was the right idea.

Who failed was Trump.

quote:

I’m not saying Trump is off because someone else should have made the call. I’m saying Trump failed… then Pence failed… then Pelosi failed. If Trump had done his job, it’s a moot point for Pence and Pelosi. If Trump failed, and Pence had stepped up, it’s a moot point re Pelosi.

I'm not getting through, so let's cut to the chase.

If you believe Pelosi at any time had authority to call out the NG, please cite the source of that authority.

Since the Constitution isn't good enough for you... cite other legal authority. Pelosi couldn't have called up the NG without legal authority.

Neither could Pence, who was occupied at the time performing his Constitutional duty, btw.

You just can't admit that this was solely Trump's malfeasance, can you?

Trump is the President. Trump is the Chief Executive. Trump is the Commander and Chief.

The Executive Order concerning the DC Guard says Subject to the President as Commander in Chief. Federal law places the responsibility upon the President. Historical precedent places responsibility on the President.

Trump had no problem mobilizing the DC Guard against BLM/Antifia.

The responsibility to defend the Federal government against violence designed to stop the Federal government from performing its constitutional due obligations rest w the President.

Tge buck not just stop w the President. The buck ends w the President.

There is no one to blame for reasons stayed over 2 pages, but the setting president on Jan 6 and leading up to Jan 6.

That president was Trump.

You just dont understand the word delegated do you?
Did you read the DC guard recruitment page? It tells who is in charge . Have you told them they are wrong yet?

I do.

I understand what Subject to the President means.


Do we need to go through all the historical tunes the President overruled the Joint Chiefs and the Sec of Defense/War.

Lincoln and FDR did it a bunch.

The President can delegate his daily supervisor. He cannot delegate away his constitutional duty.

Again, subject to the President as commander in chief is what the Executive Order says.

And, subject to the CIC orders, the sec of defense was in charge, and initiated contact with the DC chief about help. Trump did not have to give the order, it was already done.
Trump could have halted the guard release by over ruling his Sec of defense, but did not.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
And, subject to the CIC orders, the sec of defense was in charge, and initiated contact with the DC chief about help. Trump did not have to give the order, it was already done.
Trump could have halted the guard release by over ruling his Sec of defense, but did not.

I wonder how many times you will have to post the above facts until it sinks in.

And the CIC of the DC Guard has every power, right, duty, constitutional, and Fed Law mandate to use the DC Guars to stop the mob.

The DC Guard could have been deputized as law enforcement snd present ahead of time. Trump could have and should have ordered that.

He did not because he wanted the mob to bring about his scheme to keep power he had no right to.

Lane, he has no idea of what command structure is, and he's to stupid for me to bother explaining.

I know who sets st the top.

I know other presidents have for better and worse interjected.

I know Trump had the power and authority to use the DC Guard to stop the mob.

Trump has no where to hide on this.

The Executive Order is clear subject to the President. The Fed law is clear. The Constitution is clear. Historical precedent is clear. Trump must have and he did not.

It is clear you do not know how to apply constitutional sections, Fed law, or executive orders.

I do. That is my training and profession.

I believe you do, but just like so many who want to make excuses and persuade through bad faith here we are.

The arguments stand submitted.

I have provided my authority.

Ok, let’s try a historical example.

By your logic, the defense forces of the country cannot act until the president says so.

On 12/7/41 we should not have handed ammo from the lockers to the gunners on the ships or prosecuted submarines until FDR ordered them to shoot.

There is a clear line of authority, and if the level above is either unavailable or incapacitated, the level you can get to gives clearance.

In my job, I’m supposed to get informed consent before I do anything - from the patient, or their legal representative.

Someone comes in unconscious with a bleeding wound, do I wait to do action to save their life, or do I fiddle around until I can get permission? Oh, they’re dead now because I sat and fiddled around trying to get authorization.

I start lifesaving measures and get authorization as available. I am obligated to do what I see is best.

This is same/same.

What fundamentally is going on here is that the DC guard and the Capitol police didn’t think the situation looked like an armed insurrection and felt it reasonable to wait for directions.

If SecDef or the CG felt it was an armed attack, they would have been out in minutes. They made a judgement call that doesn’t fit in with how it is seen now.

The president has overall authority, and is the final say, yes. Trump could have overruled the lower levels. But he was not available. He was pouting in his bedroom or whatever.

He certainly failed and is to blame. However, he didn’t order a stand down, he just didn’t answer. That makes lower levels able to act. If he had ordered the guard to stand down or worse, help the 1/6 event, then we would have your smoking gun and a trial for treason.

But our system has checks, balances, and backups. They didn’t work, either. Ie, they failed.

I’m not saying that Trump is qualified and did well. The fact that he fiddled is part of why I don’t support him. But your use of these same figures that didn’t step up as authorities are not qualified either as they failed as well.

I believe the military term is loss of confidence in their ability to command.

Some folks will go to any lengths to absolve Trump from responsibility for anything.

Trump appointed the Acting Secretary of Defense who issued this memo on January 4th, two days before the Capitol was attacked. Read it, he explicitly retained all authority to himself, personally.

Every failure on January 6th was by Trump or his appointees. Trump sat in the White House for hours watching the sack of the Capitol on TV and Tweeting without once contacting his Secretary of Defense or Secretary of the Army to order the Guard in.

Link

Then the Def sec and sec of the army were in violation of a direct order.
They were on the phone with the DC police chief while it was still a gathering, not a riot.
She did not want the Guard there until shit hit the fan.
If there was a violation, why did it not come up during the house hearings? Explain that?
Do you think a 4 star makes the call to serve turkey on thanksgiving day? There is a structure, whether you like it or not.

Doc

Your below analogy is a good one. On Jan 6th, Trump was the Surgeon. The Patient was American Democracy. Trump fiddled. He did not have to wait for permission or authorisation. He saw the patient suffering and being attacked by enemies of the state. he had actually instructed those enemies to attack in the first place. The surgeon actually infected the patients and tried to kill the patient. The surgeon tried to MURDER the patient.

The surgeon should have been disqualified (convicted by the Senate) and imprisoned by the supreme court, as any medical professional would have been. The GOP members in Senate and the GOP controlled SC failed to protect the patient. The SC in fact has absolved the Surgeon by declaring that he has immunity.



Doc Butler said

quote:

Someone comes in unconscious with a bleeding wound, do I wait to do action to save their life, or do I fiddle around until I can get permission? Oh, they’re dead now because I sat and fiddled around trying to get authorization.

So lets go heyms way.
Trump could have ordered the guard deployed at any time. The DC chief was worried about her police being stranded, as they were scattered, and wanted them all in known locations before they would be shut off and blocked in/out by the guard. That was on her, not having them under control, and one of the reasons she was fired. This all came out at the hearings, no-one seems to have watched.
If Trump ordered the deployment, cops were shut out of back-up, injured or killed by a storming crowd, do you still think Trump should have gone over the heads of the ones handling the situation and in communication?
Biden did just that with his officers in Afghanistan. Are you pleased with the outcome?
Sure, CIC has the right to, doesnt make it the smart thing to do. Your hindsight is amazing.

That is exactly what he could do and should he r done.

The Guard is permitted to act as a deputized police force .

They should have been mobilized by Tru o ahead of time and in front of the Capitol w other police.

They were not because Trump wanted the mob.

Trump had no problem using the DC Gusrd against BLM/Antifia.

The DC Guard is permitted to be deputized as law enforcement w/in DC.

Or simply mobilize them immediately to the Capitol to suppress the mob and defend the Constitution I’m a ton when the mob hit the police line.

What Biden did and Trump was obligated to do on Jan 6 are not the same. President Biden can be a bad CIC. The Capitol, the election, the Congres, and the Constitution must have swift and immediate to response to an attempted political coup through violence.

Trump had the power. He did not use it bc the violence was perceived by him to advance his goal of keeping power.

Thus, when his party’s House leader called for assistance, Trump refused that assistance and dismissed the plea.

Thus, when the mob started chanting hang Pence, they did do because Trump told them Pence could stop Biden from being elected by doing the right thing. Trump’s certification scheme was widely reported in Alt and MSM.

No, Trump will go to his grave as the President whom permitted a violent mob to attack our fundamental constitutional mandate with the power to stop it, and refused.

Trump refused bc he thought the mob would help him keeep power he had no right to retain.

You can argue details all day long - the question remains why was Trump even holding a ‘rally’ at that time and place?

He had LOST the election, and the process of affirming the new administration was being undertaken in the Capitol. The only possible reason was to cause havoc, agitate his rabble and initiate a coup…”If Mike does the right thing!”.

Rallies are for campaigns and before the election. Once the election is over, and you lost, just STFU and go home.

Everything you are prattling on about was covered in the house hearings. Everything.
The outcome of it all. The police chief was fired and communications needed to be faster between police and sec of D and A. You talk of precedent. It was shown at the hearing, precedent was to wait for the DC police to ask for help.
Trump was wrong to deploy the guards without the Nat park officers asking first, even having the right to in the BLM case.
Again, tell me why the sec of def and army were not charged for offering the dc guard if only trump can do so? You keep dodging that.