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What happens to all others who have other religions? | |||
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Not for us to say right? If we're not to judge, " Thou shall not judge." Then it isn't for us to say. We do what we can, we love our neighbors, try to follow the example left for us and hope for the best. I personally hope everyone gets to Heaven and am able to accept the reality when I get there. Not my decision, not my authority. I really think it's important for me to leave this kind of responsibility to Other  | |||
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If you threaten me, I'm likely to do the opposite. "You're going to hell if you don't believe as I do," has never worked to convert me. | |||
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You have free will…do as you see fit…at least you were informed. Roland, If you knew me in real-life, and the same goez for ME, you would find that we could reload, hunt, fish, cuss and discuss together and likely have a cordial relationship. “Threaten” is a word and action I dislike and refrain from as much as possible. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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The tiresome old argument of trying to infer Jesus would condone abortion.  1) While people want to say abortion was practiced 2000 years ago…the reality was that it was extremely uncommon not an issue among man at the time. 2) The lack of specific citation does not assume affirmation. 3) The study of Jesus in the whole should tell you how Jesus was likely to opine. 4) What we do know: • Jeremiah 1:5 — “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you…” • Exodus 20:2-17 (Ten Commandments) — do not commit murder • Proverbs 24:11-12 — Rescue those who are being taken away to death; hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter. If you say, “Behold, we did not know this,” does not he who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who keeps watching over your soul know it, and will he not repay man according to his work?” • Deuteronomy 27:25 — “‘Cursed be anyone who takes a bribe to shed innocent blood.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’” • Exodus 23:7 — “Keep far from a false charge, and do not kill the innocent and righteous, for I will not acquit the wicked.” • Proverbs 6:16-19 — “There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.” • Mark 7:20-2 — “And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”3 • Matthew 5:17 — Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. And I ask Doug…how do you honestly personally feel about the termination of the life of a fetus? Does it not give you pause? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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At least you don't come across online as overbearing with your beliefs  | |||
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The idea may make you uncomfortable, but what you say about being saved from hell is a threat. What could be a worse threat than the hell you envision? It's your God's threat, really. You just pass it on. | |||
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I agree to the extent as you abide by law…commit a murder…you face death penalty. Is that a threat too? But… “You have free will…do as you see fit…” ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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First, all but two of the passages are from the Old Testament. I asked where Jesus spoke against abortion. Second, the two passages don’t ban abortion. Oh, one might go through some mental gymnastics and try to find support for their preconceived narrative, but why wouldn’t it be as simple as “Thou shall not kill.” Third, abortion is troubling to me, but I’m not so arrogant as to tell the pregnant lady next door: “I know better than you and want my wishes followed.” Frankly, you have offered zero biblical, and particularly Christian documentation that supports the ban on abortions. Looks to me pretty much an artificial construct of some good-ball preachers. | |||
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Please educate me Lane. Explain how that last passage speaks against abortion. | |||
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When I get time…I will try again for the umpteenth millionth time. But I know now you will never see it. Logically (I know a reach for you), you should be able to grasp it now. The key is that you do not want to be educated. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Were abortions a thing in the time of Jesus? What about further back, Old Testament times? Obviously Mary did not go for one. These are just questions and thought. ~Ann   | |||
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Abortion have been around since at least the Old Testament. | |||
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Possibly on an extremely rare basis…albeit I have seen no good factual historical evidence it was. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Abortion has been around since biblical times. One should remember that not providing an abortion was in the original Hippocratic oath. As to the Bible, it is remarkably quiet on abortion per se. God being omniscient would certainly have known this would eventually become an issue, and specifically leveled a commandment if it was something absolutely forbidden. I think that the points about innocents and knowing the soul before indicates it is a life, but that it is dependent on circumstances. I think the logic is that it is not encouraged and that it has the potential to be abused, but it’s not absolutely forbidden, either. It’s an example of free will and God’s willingness to see how we use/abuse it. There is no doubt it is ending a human life, but in some circumstances that is permissible under the Bible and Christian theology. | |||
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The best evidence that you have that Jesus opposed abortion is: “Mark 7:20-2 — “And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”3 • Matthew 5:17 — Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them“ Are you serious? The only thing I can see that one could interpret as anti-abortion is the reference to murder. If there is more, then please point it out. What is murder according to the Bible? Are there any utterenced in the Bible that defines “murder.” Any interpretations that include abortion as murder? If not, then we are left with your own subjective determination of God’s or Jesus’s word as to what murder is. And if that is the case, the unknown lady in Montana is forced to rely on your definitions. Such hubris. Aren’t there admonitions in the Bible about arrogance and pride? | |||
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No, she didn't and the conception was immaculate too. You people live in an alternate universe. -Every damn thing is your own fault if you are any good. | |||
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Alas…Matthew 5:17 is Jesus saying he supports the laws of the Old Testament and wants them obeyed. All of the passages of the Old Testament speak against taking of life…especially innocent life. Doesn’t get more innocent than the unborn and they are certainly alive. Jeremiah 1:5 - God knows the unborn. Your mind is not to be educated…it is made up. Live with it and die with it. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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A liberal can not be educated..... On anything they dont want to be.... Anything that threatens a hedonistic or immoral lifestyle....doing what feels good instead of doing what is good, so to speak. | |||
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Bloody hell Ann! Do you really want to go back and live in the year 1?  | |||
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If God wanted to prohibit something, why didn't he say so in clear, unequivocal language? He didn't have any trouble expressing the Ten Commandments. Why is there no "Thou shalt not commit abortion"? Lane, you're just cobbling passages together with no clue whether they fit. You start with a preconceived position, then look for passages that, by a wild stretch of meaning, you think think support your argument. | |||
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So, Jesus supports the admonishments of the Old Testament, huh? A few for you: Deuteronomy 25:11-12 NASB If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity And Leviticus. Here’s a few gems: God Shuns Those With Disabilities (Lev. 21:16-23). Don’t wear clothes made of more than one fabric. (Leviticus 19:19) Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9) If a man cheateth on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10 If a man has sex with a woman on her period, they are both to be “cut off from their people.” (Leviticus 20:18) Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community. (Leviticus 24:14-16) I could go on and on, but hopefully you get the idea. You and Jesus support these rules, huh? | |||
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Again, Jesus was their to do what humanity could not; 1) full fill the law of Moses, and 2) as a perfect being after rejection of temptation be a blood, peace sacrifice for humanity fulfilling the promise of his divinity through resurrection and assertion. In doing so, Jesus purposely removed the Temple and the Law of Moses and replaced those things with himself as the means to and communion with God. Modern Christians feel removed from those and other Old Testament prohibitions through the above and in Acts where God tells Peter, “ What I have made clean let no men (including Bluefish and Dr. Easter with his abomination use) call unclean.” Now, the New Testament post Gospels does renew some, few, Old Testament prohibitions. However, no where will you find a prohibition against Homosexuality. You will also not find anything on Abortion. Although, you will find instructions on how male and female relationship should be conducted. You will find a prohibition against Fornication. Yet, Fornication has a multiple, free sex, Promiscuousness to it (at least in our culture). That is very much the Question. Does God allow for culture. I strongly believe the question is yes. I have never felt condemnation over bacon. Nor a childless marriage and no attempt at children. These moral police need to move to Saudi Arabia. Jesus whole sermon was none were clean and all were as Guilty of Sin as the worst. Damnation to be the greatest and most pious reward if they did not accept him as God’s only begotten son. This is why we do not see Jesus reaching on civil disobedience, overthrowing Rome, or what is Holly. He was third to remove the idea of an Earthly Kingdom and replace it with a spiritual, perfect communion that could only be obtained through acceptance of him as Devine, Sacrificed, and Resurrected. Too many folks want to take their legs and push this world into Heaven and vise versa. There are no hundred pound elephants to be hunted in Heaven. That is not what it exists for, nor what the soul exists for and needs. Insert whatever earthly fantasy folks think Heaven will bring. What Heaven is, is perfect Communion with God. If Hell is 73 with a 5 mph breeze. It is still perfect torment bc it is complete severance and separation of the Soul (which is a part of God) from God. In short, Hell is the permanent version of when God turned away from Jesus on the cross. | |||
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‘Modern’ Christians feel!? What in Sam Hill is a “Modern” Christian? When was the expiration date of the Pre-Modern Christian? And, what will the Post-Modern Christian think? This is starting to sound like the USA with African Americans, Mexican Americans, Native Americans, etc etc instead of just Americans. I don’t know or care anything about what “Modern Christians” feel. I will just keep reading and studying The Word as just a generic Christian. But credit where credit due…you got some of that correct. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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You know what Modern Christian Ms are. You, me, everyone post Enlightenment. You also know I am right in that observation. Once again, your racial prejudice shows through inserting race into a raceless discussion. How about you explain why you do not follow the prohibitions found in the Old Testament? I’ll wait. I forgot, modern Christians would include those who are not modern iff shoots of Puritans or Fundamentalists. | |||
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There are still some christians who believe similar to what they did in in the middle ages. Most do not. I wouldn't automatically condemn all of them. The Ethiopian orthodox folks are quite interesting. There are an awful lot of Christians in this world for us to feel our US style religion is the be-all for Christianity is a height of hubris... and something Jesus warned against. | |||
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I did not saw we were better. I was answering the question. Obviously, I do think we are better and so do you because of how we choose to live our lives without feelings of condemnation. That does not mean to ridicule those. However, I have a hard time taking Ethiopian Orthodox given their belief they hold the Arc. However, I have little personal tolerance for hard line, hierarchical Roman Catholicism. Yet, I remember being in Notre Dame. I was observing this Great testimony to the power of man and statement to the power of the “Earthly” Church. I heard a woman sobbing. As I turned, I felt God tap me on the shoulder and point. The woman was lying spread Eagle in front of something sobbing in Communion with her, our God. “See, what I can use.” I make myself have respect for “Catholics” since that. I still have no use for Catholicism for myself or a world view. | |||
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So “Modern” Christians as defined by LHyem500 are Christians post ~1800 supposedly altered in belief or “Enlightened” by the Scientific Revolution and the doctrines proposed by the era (1600-1800)??? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Dr. Easter, Still waiting on your explanation why post enlightenment, post Protestant Reformation Christians who are not fundamentalists off shoots (modern Christians) do not follow the prohibitions of the Old Testament. I gave one. Hint, the right one. You know well what a modern Christian is. You are having a hard time reconciling the fact you do must follow most of the Bible’s teachings, but are wanting to condemn and outlaw those who do not follow your view of scripture. Let us hear your response to Schrodinger‘s legitimate inquiry, or do you need months to figure this one out as well. Answer his question. I have. Yes, it is Modern Christians who reject these prohibitions that no longer have any importance to our Culture. Eating pork at one time was hazardous. It is not anymore. I am sure there were sanitary rational for menstruation and beds that no longer apply. Procreation was a very high need, desire for the Israelites. That is why a brother had to marry his brother’s widow. The family tree and inheritance was paramount. I did not marry my brother’s widow. The state did not force me too under the law. In fact, unlike the Old Testament taking her as another wife is rejected by our law. Yet, in the Old Testament, Law of Moses, this multiple wives scenario was mandated. When the cultural rationale is gone, we (including you) do not follow it. Again, Christians maintain some of these prohibitions from personal morel stand point because they are reasserted post Gospels. Some like you, read these prohibitions beyond their actual words. That is okay, may be consistent with the culture those words were written, t I still think if God meant gays he would have said man and man instead of formication like he did in the Old Testament. This assumes God is the author of this stuff. What we have with Christian Nationalism or my preferred Organized Political Evangelicalism is an attempt to compel, force, bring about that personal moral code based on their reading of scripture and warped belief in a Christian Nation (theocracy) into the law for every to follow and endorsed by the State. In conclusion, if you do not like my answer to Schrodinger question people your own. Put up or shut up. | |||
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Doug, All of these passages are examples of laws and rules that came about and existed in a time when universal rules and common law did not exist. Many of them came about due to disease and pestilence of the time and others had harsher sentences than we have today but were the norm in harsher times. Mere existence in the time of Exodus would be considered cruel and harsh by today’s standards. These type laws existed way past the time of Jesus and “Enlightenment” into 19th Century USA. Example: I have 2 great great uncles buried in the cemetery of the township of Spanish Fort, TX…a township that barely exists today in north central Texas just south of the Red River and north of Nocona, TX. These were 2 of the original 4 brothers who had made there way to the USA from England. These two men were hung by the sheriff of Spanish Fort for stealing horses after being tried in the circuit court there. Here are the circumstances as they have been passed down in my family generation to generation. They (the 4 of them) were traveling down from the port of entry some where on the north eastern seaboard. This was in the 1870s. They had left St. Louis and had traveled down through the Indian Territory…now OK. Somewhere in OK they traded horses with locals before entering TX. Two of them went into Spanish Fort for some reason…supplies or something and were arrested for stealing horses as the horses they were riding had apparently been stolen from a nearby ranch. Was common for OK Territory outlaws to raid horses from TX and trade them with Indians in the territory at the time. My uncles had no way of knowing these horses were stolen but were tried and executed by a fairly “modern” court of law for such. We would not hang anyone today for anything period…much less for stealing a horse or a car. But it was the norm at the time because a horse was oftentimes the difference between life and death at the time and often represented a mans net worth.
Thus, the passages fit the times and were God’s laws and yes condoned by Jesus. Matthew 5:17 — Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Laws evolve…nothing unBiblical about that…God provided a “starting point” to fit the period…you cited examples. That said, Jesus did not come to deal or concern himself with laws and rules…he came to deal with humanity and the redemption thereof. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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So you basically support laws made by an to over rule laws made God??  | |||
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I believe God laid the foundation of law to be built upon by man and intended such — but like everything…within parameters. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Lane, you response was excellent in that you proved Lheym’s point about modern Christianity. And, I’ll add that I agree with your explanations of why certain passages went out of favor. You can slice it, dice it, but the bottom line is you and your fellow Christians make subjective determinations about certain passages in the Bible; the so-called “word of God.” One makes those determinations predicated upon the times they live and sadly, what most comfortably fits into their lifestyle. My friend, you’re standing and walking on a pile of grape jello. | |||
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My objection with the label of modern Christians is that implies Christianity has evolved over time. It has not. It means the same today as it did 1000 years ago. There are parts of the Bible that strictly documenting the history and beginning (most of your passages). And there are the principles and lessons meant to endure the test of time and apply to any day or age. By LHyem’s theory and to your belief…the Bible would at some point become outdated in a post-modern world — much like “I believe” ‘you’ see the Constitution. Both are meant to be enduring as written and with some leeway for variation to fit the time. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Interesting that you don’t believe that the Constitution is a document that needs to align with rapidly changing times, yet, the “word of God” must have:
That’s makes no sense: One is a document created by man, the other created by God. One’s words are immutable, the other has a fudge factor. | |||
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What utter nonsense. Just made up babbling bullshit. 
-Every damn thing is your own fault if you are any good. | |||
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The “leeway” is what gets you in trouble. Someone has to decide where the leeway is. Who decides? You? The pregnant lady in Montana who has been raped? | |||
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Some leeway? So, we agree God allows for culture. In the face of no direct prohibition against homosexuality found in the New Testament, you are comfortable arguing a “Scripture based” objection to Marriage Equality based on an Old Testament prohibition. When the cultural reasons for what you continue to call an abomination no longer exist. If God wanted to continue the Prohibition against homosexual relationships, he would have expressed so as he did in the Old Testament. At least, he has allowed culture to define the gaps in what he did not spell out. See Schrodinger’s two response directly above this post. They are spot on. Who decides the leeway? When your objection is based on your reading of Scripture, the person does and not the State. | |||
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I said both had some leeway…in both by design of their respective c/Creators. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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