I had posted this in another thread but was curious how everyone else felt about this.

Check out the payroll of the Oakland, CA PD......they all make well over $250k, mostly in OT.......and in a bankrupt state......why? I'm sorry, but ~$300k for being a cop.....anywhere?

http://www.safehaven.com/artic...kland-the-model-city

I fixed the link......

If an officer has the opportunity and the desire to work extensive overtime when it's available, what is the problem? If you don't understand municipal budgeting and labor costs this may not make sense, but if you are aware of the staffing-cost ration for personnel it becomes perfectly clear.

THE CITY SAVES MONEY BY PAYING OVERTIME RATHER THAN HIRING ADDITIONAL COPS!!!

While I'd prefer to see more cops/firefighters hired, I understand that to do so actually costs more money than the overtime paid to fill the vacancies, by about half again.

And BTW, public safety did not bankrupt California; Democratic politicians did.

Understand municipal budgeting? Your state is bankrupt, pal.......and if you wonder why it costs so damn much to live in that shithole take a look at "municipal budgeting 101". There must be an awful lot of traffic to direct in that dump of a state to rack up $150k in OT. What a disgrace.

Wonder where Oakland(what pecentage of it's citizens even pay taxes)is getting the money to pay that bloated budget? Federal govt? And the Fed is borrowing it from where, China? OK, now can you please teach me about municipal budgeting?

Norton,
There are only two valid reasons to become an Oakland police officer; 1) To obtain the most experience in the shortest ammount of time. 2) Cash. Wads of cash.

A uniformed Oakland police officer's life is in danger beyond all believable stories day in and day out in that city. While an Oakland police officer you can expect no support from city government, no backup from neighboring municipalities and the across the board unadulterated spite of the residents you are there to protect.

If those cops weren't paid as much and more than they are and should be the only other option would be to build a wall around the place like a great big prison.

Saaaaayyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

47 police officers killed in Oakland's illustrious history......prior to the 3 that were killed on the same day last year, it was 10 years since the last LEO killing.

Must be a fantastic place to live......

Norton -

So, can I assume from your reply that you won't be re-locating to the west coast anytime soon? Actually that's good news as we don't need anymore assholes out here; thank you very much. And I'm sure I could never teach anyone with your flair for the language anything about anything.

BTW, there were four OPD officers killed in that incident and a total of 51 OPD officers have died in the LOD since 1897. But of what importance are facts to someone of your brilliance?

And I am not your "pal".

Mike.....

Let's pretend you're as knowledgeable as you say......wanna venture a guess as to why folks apply for a job as an Oakland LEO?

Please, teach me......unless I misunderstood your initial reply, that's what this is about, correct?

The use of overtime in pulbic safety agencies can be an effective "force multiplier". It is, in the long run, cheaper than hiring additional staff and paying the attendant labor costs. And, overtime, in most agencies, is not pension based. So, the agency gets a deal.

But...and this is a big but. When there is cash overtime available the work force WILL attempt to abuse the system to find ways to earn as much as possilbe. Legitimate deployment practices, personnel policies and proper supervisory oversight should prevent overtime abuse.

In any agency where you see such figures, you know immediately that there is no meaningful oversight. This is a management problem.

And, by the way, there should be no cash overtime for management positions such as police captains, who should all be salaried.
( Fire captains are not management, btw, simple supervisors in most agencies.)

Norton is spot on. 300k to be a cop? Just one more symptom of our sick system here in Cali. I appreciate they work in a dangerous profession, I also recognized they weren't recruited for the job at gunpoint. I don't like the idea of getting shot at at work, so I'm not a cop. If you don't like numbers don't be an accountant etc. These men do a dangerous job, I'm grateful they do, and they should be compensated. But this is not acceptable given the condition of our state,regardless of how we structure the pay to justify it. I guess if pointing this out makes Norton an "asshole" then make some room in the "asshole" section Norton because I too find this silly.

Norton is quite correct to point out this mess. And it is a mess. It's a flawed management system enabling out of control behavior. Public agencies need third-party oversight.

Are we really arguing 47 vs 51 deaths in 113 years? If it is 51 divided by 113 you get +/- .45 divide that by the 803 sworn officer that OPD states as their authorized strength on their site and you get +/- .00056% percent of any one officer getting killed in line of duty any given year. Multiply that by say a 25 year career and you get .014% chance of said officer being KIA. I'm not claiming my dashboard math to be perfect, but I do think it illustrates that 47 vs 51 is really splitting hairs with a already statistically VERY unlikely occurence.
Like TWL said above. I'm sure OT is a very useful tool when used properly. But without oversight can be very destructive. I just can't detach myself from common sense long enough to be ok with a civil servant earning 300k because they work Saturdays and it is a rough area. I think that we all agree that we support the police. But should they spend tax dollars on huge salaries without accountability?

That is an awful lot of money and cops are high profile so they get the heat.
What about the slimey little beaurocrates who do nothing to earn they money and whose only job qualification is party affiliation and they kissed the right ass at the right time. When money gets tight, the pols start screaming about cops and fire fighters but they never mention cutting their staff nor the ass kissers that could be cut.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
That is an awful lot of money and cops are high profile so they get the heat.
What about the slimey little beaurocrates who do nothing to earn they money and whose only job qualification is party affiliation and they kissed the right ass at the right time. When money gets tight, the pols start screaming about cops and fire fighters but they never mention cutting their staff nor the ass kissers that could be cut.

Other than the POTUS, no one in the Presidential Cabinet makes as much as these cops......including the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

http://dcjobsource.com/presidentialsalaries.html

quote:

Originally posted by Norton:
I had posted this in another thread but was curious how everyone else felt about this.

Check out the payroll of the Oakland, CA PD......they all make well over $250k, mostly in OT.......and in a bankrupt state......why? I'm sorry, but ~$300k for being a cop.....anywhere?

http://www.safehaven.com/artic...kland-the-model-city

One way to look at it:
None of them made $300K. And the highest grossing cop had a base of $93K and added $150K in OT. It looks like he more or less worked double shifts the entire year. So basically he was doing the job of two cops. The city saved money by not having to pay benefits to a second cop because this guy was doing double time.

But the truth is: in Oakland(probably everywhere else also) cops get paid for coming in to court. They automatically get 4 hours OT for showing up. Often they are done in less than 4 hours, but still get paid 4 hours OT(= 6 regular hours). Sometimes they are there more than four hours. If they are waiting to testify for six hours they get paid the equivalent of 9 regular hours!

And here is the kicker: the guys who get the most overtime are the graveyard shift guys because they catch all the DUIs. Each DUI arrest means a trip to court. But the poor graveyard shift guys are tired when they head into court in the morning following a shift. So the city has a dorm room where they can go an sleep until their case is called. They have someone who wakes them when their case is coming up.

So basically they are getting paid OT to come in and sleep.

I hate to sound anti cop because I'm not, but it seems pretty silly to pay someone for the equivilent of 6 hours for half an hour of work and several hours of sleep.

As far as the dorm at the courthouse, I was told this by one of my hunting buddies who is a CHP officer and started his career in Oakland. Most new CHPs start in LA or Oakland then transfer out ASAP because CHPs get paid the same everywhere in the state. He said many Oakland city cops and CHPs make a lot on overtime strictly due to the court system. BTW, he is absolutely not a B.S.er.

My agency, like the rest of the country has been facing a personnel shortage for years! Too many people "in the sand box" for starters. Big hiring pushes in the 1980's and now those people are ready to retire.

Yes we get paid to sleep at the court house, they can't call us at home and we be in court on time. Blame the court system, not us. Most courts in Harris Co. don't start until 9AM, if I get off at 6A that's three hours I have to hang around before I know if I'm even needed or not!
We had a defense attorney subpeona 30+ deputies and jailers, just to be sworn in as witnesses for the defense, (not sure yet what he was up to w/that). Senior Deputies make about $45/hr O/T so go figure on that one. I got w/our legal guy who "asked for guidance from the court" on it, only a couple of us had to go to court. Still a waste of time and money as the guy finally plead out!

It just not the cops fault...we're just there working w/in the system the elected officials put into place.

If you think the OT is bad, why don't you check out the juicy retirement system for cops in Ca? One of the many reasons they don't have any money.

The bloated income from salary and overtime is only part of the problem. It is the cushy pension. Not only that, but a vast majority of police officers in California retire as "disabled". We're talking about north of 80% get a doctor to say they are disabled, even though to the naked eye they look perfectly healthy. This liberal "disabled" policy means that they don't pay tax on their pension. The unions control local politics and this is why the absurb condition is allowed to continue.

I also don't buy the argument that the job is especially dangerous. Construction workers and taxi drivers have a more dangerous job and they sure don't make hundreds of thousands a year, plus lifetime pension, plus lifetime healthcare, plus tax free.

quote:

Originally posted by RVL III:
It just not the cops fault...we're just there working w/in the system the elected officials put into place.

Yes, it is the system, not the cops. The unions are to blame.

quote:

If you think the OT is bad, why don't you check out the juicy retirement system for cops in Ca? One of the many reasons they don't have any money.

Yes, out local police chief retired last month and has already taken a job as chief a couple of towns over. They do like to double dip.

quote:

The bloated income from salary and overtime is only part of the problem. It is the cushy pension. Not only that, but a vast majority of police officers in California retire as "disabled". We're talking about north of 80% get a doctor to say they are disabled, even though to the naked eye they look perfectly healthy. This liberal "disabled" policy means that they don't pay tax on their pension. The unions control local politics and this is why the absurb condition is allowed to continue.

Very true on both counts. Spike Helmeg was against officers retiriring on disablity, until it was time for him to retire as head of the Ca Hwy Patrol.... One of his "one the job injuries" that was cited as having led to his "disability" was falling out of his desk chair.

Another high ranking CHP officer retired on disability due to "stress". He then to a job as the head of security at San Jose Int Airport. When questioned if the stress from that job would agrivate his "stress syndrome", he replied that head of airport security was, "a different kind of stress."


In our local DA race the current DA was ousted because the challenger was supported by all the county law enforcement. I'm sure that their support had nothing to do with the incobent being against bloated pensions for LSOs, while the challenger was all for "taking care of our LEOs".....

Interesting article in Forbes recently about America's newest millionaires......you may be surprised to see who they are:

http://blogs.forbes.com/digita...naire-cop-next-door/

What percentage of taxpayers is employed by State, Local, or Federal Gov't?
Won't most vote for whoever promises the most?

If California is supposedly already deep in Red, where are they getting the money to pay their retirees?? Is the Federal Gov't just "giving" it to them, at a cost to every other citizen in the US?

And everyone bitches, moans, complains, gripes, and groans about the unions, politicians, and budget that hasn't been balanced for a decade (using bonds to finance 1/3 or more of your budget isn't balanced no matter what sacramento claims), demanding that we make changes... Until it means a change to thier pension or thier supplemental income, or thier tax break etc. In Cali, we constantly hear from thousands of special interest groups, "don't balance the budget on our backs!" Meanwhile, they are recieving tax dollars from someone else. It doesn't matter whether cops and prison gaurds and anyone else is overpaid, underpaid or paid just right... WE SIMPLY CANNOT CONTINUE TO SPEND THE WAY WE DO IN CALI. I respect LEOs, and it isn't all the cops fault (unions, court system, etc.) but it doesn't matter. Until we all get on board with sacrificing a little of what we are used too, it will only get worse.

Oh, by the way, I'm sure things will only get better with Jerry Brown as governor for the second time! And thank God the sorry Rep. party of Cali has voted an anti-gunner (Meg Whitman) to represent us against Jerry Brown, so it doesn't matter who wins, we get screwed in the rear anyway. YAHOO.

Looks like Oakland is laying off about 80 cops.....maybe the remaining cops can now make $500k per with even more OT.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/...06/25/MNV61E4IL3.DTL

Unless Calif. is different from other states I know, the state does not pay any City Police Officers Salaries.

I have heard that their pension is state wide, which makes it easier to transfer form one Dept. to another, but I do not know all the details.

Most, but not all, public safety agencies in California are members of the state-wide system.

Several of the larger counties and cities have their own systems, and some of them have mulitple systems. And there are a few independent, employee-managed systems. LAPD, for example, has an independent, employee-owned and managed system as well as a city-run system with 5 different benefit packages.

Movement from agency to agency is possible, but one must resign from one agency and be hired by another. (Not always a simple matter.) If one leaves an agency that belongs to the state pension system and goes to another that is also part of the state system, he simply rolls over his pension contributions without interruption.

If one changes agencies AND pension systems, contributions from the first system are frozen at current levels, and the guy starts all over in the new system. Or...the guy can take out his money from his first plan and invest it into his new plan.

But getting back to the issue of OT, it's all about management oversight. The Oakland matter is a classic example of poor policies and management controls.

Oakland just hired a new chief. He is the former chief of Santa Monica and Long Beach. He is quite highly regarded and very capable. Oakland has certainly had its share of problems over the years. Hopefully, the new guy can turn things around.

TWL....thank you for what seems like accurate, first-hand knowledge of that mess out there.

Can I ask where a city like Oakland came up with the money to pay all of those $250k+ salaries? I didn't see it in that article but is there a way to find out the entire salary total for the Oakland PD? (I'd love to see what percent of Oakland's total annual budget it amounts to.)

And to be fair, I'm sure Oakland is not the only city where this is happening.

Norton:

Oakland has a mayor-council form of government with a city administrator who runs the day-to-day business. Budgets for public entities are public record. Find the Oakland, Ca. website on the net and ask the city administrator for the city's budget info. He is obligated to provide you with it. Depending on how they calendar their fiscal year, you may get year old data.

In the public sector, and especially in public safety agencies, salaries are the greatest part of the budget. And.....the public safety budgets are generally the largest part of the city's entire budget. For example, the LAPD budget is well over 1 billion, and represents the largest single city expenditure.

As for overtime, it is generally included in the salary column and represents money not otherwise encumbered.

I can't speak to how Oakland structures its budget.

quote:

If you think the OT is bad, why don't you check out the juicy retirement system for cops in Ca? One of the many reasons they don't have any money.

I don't have a problem with the money they make based on all of the shit they have to deal with constantly. If you really want something to bitch about maybe you should take a look at what they piss away on the Welfare and School programs in California, now THAT is a disgrace.

This is just mind-boggling......should Federal tax dollars be sent to CA to pay for this?


http://database.californiapensionreform.com/

Wow!

blutube says they may lay off 80 officers later this week or so, that after standing face to face w/the rioters!
Wonder how that O/T for those who get to stay compares to total package costs?