Drummond
Ray suggested you two settle it in private...I think thats a good idea for both of you.

Control N is much more interesting. At least what JeffP gets!

Monkey Spanker,

You HAVE to be Lesley Drummond, if we have contacted each other before, BECAUSE, you are the ONLY person that I have ever called on the phone or email personally from an AR thread, and that was 2 years ago...or you have some of your buddies emailing...

Nice try kid but it didn't work and your just digging a hole you can't get out of, and its going to cost you in the end..your forcing me to do what I don't want to do...

Then the guy that told me my lawyer and best friend was dead, maybe you were part of that also...Ben Love, said yesterday that the rumors of his death are being greatly exagerated, (a quote from Winston Churchill, I believe..)

Based on this BS stuff thats happening now, the posts have no substance and I am off of here, and I will pursue this matter on my own from this point forward...

I asked you to settle this this just between us and now your playing your little games, not a smart thing to do...

Damn guys, its not me. Hell, have your boys check the IP addresses. I have no idea who these guys are but judging from the amount of emails I have received thanking me for calling bullshit on you I would be willing to bet that the list is a long one of who it could be. You said that you got all of your stories mixed up and that was good enough for me, I have no other reason to keep this up. For all intensive purposes I am done with the thread, two things happened, you admitted being wrong and secondly you have to understand that I do know what I am talking about when it comes to these deer.

Drummond

Seriously, check the IP addresses and let me know what you find out, it should not be difficult to do.

ATTENTION THIS THREAD HAS OFFICIALLY BEEN:

See, this is what I love about AR forums, no rules are really needed, its about free speech...in the marketplace of ideas....you have been figured out DTH or MonkeySpanker or whatever your "real name is".....in the few short months I have been here, I have seen how new members come in and what they post on. The topic CANCELLATION HUNT is not going to attract that many first time posters...you come in thinking we're stupid...for only one reason- to "point out the bullshit" (attack) someone you have had a disagreement with in the past. Trouble is--------> your BS has been "Vetted Out" in the marketplace of ideas. I have never been one to hi-jack a thread like this,(it sure is fun once in awhile ) ask anyone who may have been on here in the last 3 months. Watching you continually deny is hilarious!!!!

You did the same thing at Realtree's forum a while back. (As noted in the link I posted.)

As far as diverting the thread, Atkinson was making conversation with other members of the forum- not "advertising" anything. In my opinion, what you hear here is just like standing around a campfire during elk camp- do you dissect what everyone says and then move to prove or disprove your hypthesis? HEE! HEE!...HA!
Well, dont answer that---->maybe YOU do!

Again, You are FUNNY!

I have mule deer research to do.....See you!

Idaho"How can I get any research done with this clown being so entertaining?"Vandal

I'm not DTH. Atkinson are you going to sue everybody that thinks you are a jackass for false advertising? You're going to be very busy and unsuccessful. But at least you'll be busy, and that will be a change I suspect.

No Sir only one, why would I sue the same guy twice!

Ray,

You are once again mistaken, we have never exchanged emails. That must be some other "troll" that called bullshit. I have pretty much left this thread alone since you admitted you got all of your stories mixed up. One thing I will say is that you said that it was not that big of a deal that your stories were mixed and I would think that it would be a huge deal to a potential client whether they get the straight story or one that you thought was straight. If you are going to have a business to feed your family you should at least realize that you have a moral obligation to represent certain hunts as they really are, not what you want them to be. I am not trying to be ugly here, just voicing an opinion.

Some of you guys think that I have a hard on for poor old Ray but thats not true at all. I did not get involved in the 500 acre penned wilderness elk hunt in Nebraska or in a number of other fiascos I have seen here on AR. Again, Ray admitted that he screwed up, this would have been a non-issue had he done the right thing as soon as the question was raised but in typical Ray fashion he tried to belittle the people that disagreed with him then resorted to scare tactics and only when that did not work did he admit that the stories were completely mixed up.

Idaho, You are a strange man! You talk about the internet police then go find some story from years ago and post a link and then you sit in front of your computer to see who logs on and off. You need to get outside bro, your kinda freaking me out. As for me being new, that is not the case, my screen name here a coulpe of years ago was different than the new one but I forgot what passwod I had used and my email account had changed so I created this handle. I have been around this site for over 2 years checking it out and only when I saw the recent misrepresentation did I decide to get back on.

Drummond Lindsey

PS Ray, please notice that I signed my name Drummond Lindsey, Drummond is my first name and Lindsey is my last name, you have managed to screw it up every time you post. If you are going to sue me then it would benefit you to have my name.

Yeah, well my dad's tougher than your dad! Give it a fuggin' rest!

And you guys thought the wolf thread was a long one!

I am on Ray's side!

More humor from the "Ray" archives:

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3.../386105921#386105921

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3411043/m/51210591/p/1

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3411043/m/34710281/p/1

I think we all enjoy slinging mud on these forums, but this one is just stupid. I think you guys need to meet in person and just sling it out. I don't even care who wins.

Yeah, I am a little strange....at times.

You try extracting, amplifying and sequencing DNA from hair/fur samples and see how long it takes you to sit at the computer and watch who logs on and off.....

Freakin you out? WOW! Here I am trying to understand the evolutionary trajectory of mitochondrial and nuclear DNA introgression between sympatric populations of odocoileus virginianus and o. hemionus (hemionus)along hybrid zones....and I'm freakin' YOU out?

If you make a living off of Mule Deer, you might consider putting more effort into DIRECTLY supporting mule deer research rather than "seek and destroy" on the various forums. But to each their own, I guess. Haven't had this much fun since the lid came loose on the Tetrad 2 and I had cougar and grey fox DNA bubbling all over the place......

Outside more? Wont argue with you there.....

Idaho "Needs to get outside more?" Vandal

quote:

Originally posted by IdahoVandal:

Freakin you out? WOW! Here I am trying to understand the evolutionary trajectory of mitochondrial and nuclear DNA introgression between sympatric populations of odocoileus virginianus and o. hemionus (hemionus)along hybrid zones....and I'm freakin' YOU out?

So, what have you discovered? Why do these hybrid bucks tend to be sterile, while the does are hit and miss? (So I've heard). Is it true that the cross is usually a verginianus buck and a hemionus doe because the whitetail tends to be more aggressive during the breeding season? (So I've heard). Why do these hybrid bucks mostly take on a whitetail antler configuration but still stott?

Hey Doc! IN the interest of hijacking this thread in a completely new direction....

F1 (the offspring) hybrids do tend to be sterile, but not always (as you stated)

Yes, it would appear that more hybridization occurs between female mule deer and male whitetails. But not necessarily because the wt is more aggressive. It may have more to do with the overall density of large (4-point) md bucks in a particular breeding population. To paraphrase: WT does do not seem to be as selective when allowing a WT buck to mate with her, if a 3pt is all that is around, she will will receive him. MD does on the other hand have shown that they tend to be more selective, if a large (4pt) MD buck is not available, she may be a little resistant to a 3 pt MD or 2 pt MD yet will be receptive to a 4 or 5pt WT buck. Of course it is far more complex than that.

In many cases restrictions are put in place where MD bucks can only be killed if they are "3 pt or larger," and this may be contributing to this phenomenon. That is one of the many questions.

As far as antler configuration, I am not aware of any studies done which have correlated antler configuration to the sex of each parent....maybe so. But, typically the hybrids DO NOT STOTT This is why hybridization may contribute to lower mule deer reproduction rates. The hybrids have been shown to have a very limited set of anti-predation strategies. (Stotting is one of the strategies mule deer use) In most cases, hybrids do not immediately flee at the sight of a predator (as is common in WT) NOR do they stott or bunch close together as do muleys. Thus, hybrid fawns may be preyed upon at a higher rate than either mule deer fawns or whitetail fawns. BUT without checking specifically for hybridization during fawn mortality studies, these animals may just show up as lower mule deer survival------> we'll see!

IV

Great
Now we have to worry about antler envy in areas with
MD and WT's.

IV, I have not read or heard of any studies regarding the antler configuration either but it is my experience.

Also, where blacktail and mule deer interbreed I've witnessed what is called a "benchleg" where the hair patterns and leg color look as if the deer is wearing socks half way up its legs. Really quite cool to see.

With regards to the stotting, you're right, but what I saw was what most definitely looked like a hybrid ATTEMPT to stott and it was very clumsy. Which would certainly confirm ease of predation. I misspoke, sorry.

ok, I'll display my ignorance...what does stott mean? thanks, Jim

Jim
You ever see a Mule deer "bounce" away?
Like on a pogo stick.

When a mule deer senses danger, it performs a stiff-legged bound, bringing all four feet off the ground at the same time. A deer can stott from a standstill or when running. While stotting, a deer can travel up to 26 feet in a single leap and clear obstacles up to six feet high. It can turn its body completely around in mid-air, reversing direction. A mule deer uses the leaps to bound up slopes and over bushes and rocks, making it difficult for predators to follow. The pogo stick-like leap also provides an elevated view of the terrain and perhaps signals to the predator that they have been spotted.

link http://www.nps.gov/bibe/teachers/factsheets/muledeer.htm

Yep: I've seen the "pogo stick" action...just never heard the term stott...thanks...

I back Ray 100% on his posts, as I believe that
he was relaying the information in good faith and
how he saw it .
In my opinion Ray is one of the most valuble members
participating in this wonderful forum.
And you a-holes that go from forum to forum
looking for people to attack, ought to find a real
job
Charlie

quote:

I back Ray 100% on his posts, as I believe that
he was relaying the information in good faith and
how he saw it .
In my opinion Ray is one of the most valuble members
participating in this wonderful forum.
And you a-holes that go from forum to forum
looking for people to attack, ought to find a real
job
Charlie

_____________
Charlie,
This has been a very informative thread and much has come from it. Lots good and some not so good. Now, go take a sh*t and find another jock to sniff. These 'assholes' you refer to are just like you, Bucko. They have input and they have opinions. On a sale hunt like this they are the paying public and they are the deciding factor and that's why we all read this thread to begin with. The "Good faith" that you mention has bought me a crock of sh*t a few times in the past.

Ray can stand on his own as well as the others here have done and can do. One thing about Ray that we all can and do value is that you dont have to guess where that Gent stands (right or wrong by your reckoning) on any subject or any issue. Damn, I smell a jockstrap. Ray!!!! Wash the damn thing!

Welcome to the "asshole club", Sir Charles.
Dungbeetle

Charlie, just because you "side" with someone doesn't make anyone else an a$$hole. Apparenly you didn't read the entire thread word for word. Ray, being honest, came forth and wrote that there was some confusion about the deer. We all get things twisted now and then.

But I for one do not appreciate being referred to as an a$$hole just because I'm interested in the truth and wanted some light shed on the topic.

Ray sold the hunt as he knew he would. I was a runner up but needed 1-2 more days to confirm a schedule, but I'll most likely book next year.

It is sad that you cannot appreciate another individuals opinion just because you may disagree with it. And since you take such a position, is it safe to say that THAT makes you a mirror image of us.

Whats funny is that I think all too often people get caught up in the moment and make decisions based on emotion rather than facts. I think that if you come on here now and try to choose a side that your not looking at what has transpired here with an open mind. Ray was making false claims as to what this particular ranch has produced and he got called on it. It took a while but he came back on and did the right thing, he admitted that he had his stories mixed up and the people that were interested in the hunt were able to make a decision knowing the facts. As consumers that is all we can ask for. Some people think that I was being harsh for calling Ray out on the false claims but I think that the ones that did not like it were the ones that were trying to stick up for a friend and I can appreciate that. I was not looking for anybody to take sides, I just wanted people to know the truth and now they have it. You have all heard the phrase "You lie in the bed that you make" and I think that is what happened to Ray here. Whats funny is that everyone of us here makes mistakes and if the shoe were on the other foot I would be damn sure appreciative if somebody let me know that I was making false claims. I know for a fact that I would take it like a man and that I would hold myself accountable for my actions. It took a lot of time but Ray should be commended for eventually doing just that. Nobody got sued, nobody got their ass kicked and nobody went to jail and Ray admitted he was wrong. Notice he never said that I was right but we all know that he is stubborn, LOL


Drummond

Yes! The thread that will not die! Here I was beginning to think it could just drift away, but some people have to have the last word and always be right...

Ok DTH..... you WIN! You are absolutely 100% right! Thanks so much for PROTECTING us from the evil outfitter making false claims! I look forward to your continued policing, there are only about 150000 more posts to tear through and scrutinize, I bet if you look real hard you may find other false claims on these boards. And I for one am thankful people like you are here to clear them up for us. I only speak for myself, but without you I would have fallen for the gag! PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE! go find some more!

Whats that?......Did someone just post they saw a 42" Mule Deer? ...What? NO WAY! That can't be more than 40"!!!

DTH: To the MUCKMOBILE!......WE have MUCKRAKING to do!


IV

DIE!!! HORSE !!! DIE!!!!


Where is the beating the dead horse icon when ya need one

Before the horse dies I would like to apologize to
Doc and dungbettle and every one else for my
comments
I don't know what got into me
Sorry !!!!
Charlie

Thanks.

quote:

Before the horse dies I would like to apologize to
Doc and dungbettle and every one else for my
comments
I don't know what got into me
Sorry !!!!
Charlie

___________
No problem, Pard. You're ok.
Dungbeetle

Meanwhile,back in the desert the Arabs were eating thier dates.

quote:

Meanwhile,back in the desert the Arabs were eating thier dates.

This thread is looking up.

My apologies in advance for flogging the corpse but I saw this a bit late and am kind of agitated by the contents and wish to say this;


Im not a "big Ray fan" by any stretch of the imagination and disagree with him on a regular basis, but this has gotten out of hand.

Unlike Monkey Spanker , Ive been watching Ray book hunts on here since 2001 and have read an awfull lot of positive replys from some very satisfied customers. Comments about him going out of his way to take care of his customers can be found in the archives in abundance.


Ive never personally booked a hunt with the man and frankly wonder if I would even like him if I ever did, but I wouldnt hesitate to nonetheless because Im certian that he books some exceptional hunts and has his clients intrests at heart.

For someone who claims that he "doesnt have a hard-on for Ray", Drummond has been very adamant and persistent about demeaning his credibility, and methinks there may be more than one outfitter using "shady promotional tactics" in this thread.


And by the way, If Drummond and Monkey Spanker are the same, then Drummond is doing an exceptional imitation of a troll moron, their IQ's are not even on the same plateau.

And yes, Anna is a hottie!!

Wst,

"Drummond has been very adamant and persistent about demeaning his credibility, and methinks there may be more than one outfitter using "shady promotional tactics" in this thread."

First and foremost, I did not try and demean the mans credibility, thats was a self-inflicted wound. I merely brought to his attention that the widest deer ever killed was in fact not killed on a ranch that he books hunts for here in Texas. If you make BOLD statements on the internet that are completely untrue then you need to be man enough to ball up and admit making a mistake which Ray has done here. I would also love to hear how calling BS is being shady. I have never felt the need to resort to "shady" advertising practices, the fact of the matter is, when you kill the highest grossing deer out of the country you are guiding in for two years in a row there is no need to resort to shady advertising.

As for Anna and friends, maybe we should just have a thread dedicated to them, at least we can all agree that they are damn fun to look at.


Drummond

quote:

when you kill the highest grossing deer out of the country you are guiding in for two years in a row

Wow! That is quite an accomplishment....YOU (not someone else) killed the highest grossing deer out of the country YOU are guiding in? 2 years in a row? That is certain to attract some attention from those booking hunts. Why didn't you just say so......

(AMAZING!)

IV

IV,

I was merely responding to the accusation of shady advertising on my behalf. Trust me, if I had a hidden agenda to come here and book hunts I would just post an assload of pics and my number. The fact of the matter is, I have no hunts to book. I have been accused of shady advertising and of not knowing how to hunt big deer so I have responded. That being said, please allow me to rephrase the quote you posted.

Our clients, while hunting with us on our leased properties, harvested the highest grossing deer to come out of Sonora in 2003 and 2004. These deer were actually killed with the assistance of our guides and the photos of the deer were taken by staff of Desert Trophy Hunts. We know and will be happy to share the story behind each and every deer we have every advertised with. These hunts have been completely booked by the same hunters that have hunted with us over the previous 2 years.

Thanks for the heads up on the wording. I stand corrected.

Drummond

Please post more pics of Anna

As the AR turns, these are the days of our lives! This is just like watching a soap opera!

I used to have a lot of respect for Drummond/DTH from reading his posts over on the Monster Muleys forum, but not any more....

I don't know him or Ray from Adam other than what I've read on the "net", and while Ray may not have had his facts straight in the begining, at least he was a big enough man to admit it!

I think the biggest beef people have with this whole thread is that Drummond/DTH comes off thinking it's his responsibility to "police" the forums, but he picks and chooses where he does it and it certainly seems he has a hard-on for Ray....

Not that it matters, but after reading this whole mess and seeing how it's been handled, I know if I had the scratch to book the hunt of a lifetime and these two were in the running, my money would go to Ray simply because he at least acts his age and doesn't come across like some 10-year-old kid on the playground spouting off that his dad is tougher than your dad...

What does he go by at Monster Muley? I should be able to pick out his arrogance!

I don't post here a lot,but check in almost every day.To me it looks like Ray either didn't research his "add" or was trying to pull one over on prospective clients.When called on it he claimed he was the one misinformed.Truth or backpeddling?I don't care for anyone who threatens to sue for anything,especially silly crap like this.My callrummond 1,Ray 0.