My My My, guess a lot of you poor ole folks haven't spent much time in texas. I've hunted a few places in south Texas and I can tell ya this....65 miles down the road can be on the back side of the ranch or just off the property of ranch #2. Nit Picky bunch of stand up folks aint't ya..(NOT). Nuff Said

Ray,

I am curious as to what was a half truth or lie on my part? Everything I have stated is 100% fact! All you have done is rant and rave about how I am a liar and you have yet to provide any information to substantiate your claim that this deer was killed on or near the Flag Ranch. Your just PISSED because your caught redhanded in a BS story with no way to crawdad out of it. I have also NEVER stated that this deal was a rip off, quite the contrary, I said in an earlier post that the area where the Flag Ranch is has produced good deer and that the price of the hunt was very fair. My only point of contention with you is how this deer was advertised. One of two things has happened here, either you made up a bullshit story about the deer in order to book hunts or you were fed a bullshit story by somebody else to get you to book hunts. There is a video of this deer alive the day before it was shot, and the video is the evidence against the man that shot it. There was no hunting season in effect for deer on the date that the buck was shot, if you will look at the hunt dates for TX you will see that the SW Panhandle hunts are over the Sunday after Thanksgiving and the season for the Trans Pecos, which is the region the Flag Ranch is in, does not start until the Sat after Thanksgiving. When the video was recorded there was no legal hunting season for deer in effect for the county it was in. I cannot divulge any more information than that but I can guarantee that anybody on this forum can make a few phone calls and be able to 100% substantiate everything I have stated with the information I have provided.

As for the mathematics major (LostOki) that was not being nitpicky about the distance between the ranch in question and the real area where the deer was shot I just want to point out that 20,000 acres is "only" about 31.25 square miles. Thats roughly 6 miles by 5 miles but I think that the ranch in question is longer than it is wide, regardless, the deer was killed at least 60 miles from the closest border of the ranch. Like I stated, its not even in a neighboring county.

In response to Rays question about whether I would call these guys liars to their faces, you bet I would but I doubt very seriously that they would lie to me about it. I know that man that shot the deer and while some people here might persecute me for it I really like the guy, he just made a bad decision. Good people make bad decisions, he has paid his price and is well aware that he got caught with his had in the cookie jar so to speak. I have often wondered what I would be thinking while looking at a 46" deer in the middle of nowhere. He really is just a good old west TX boy and I imagine that Billy Cole is as well. I have no idea what he told you but at least on his website he did state that the deer was poached north of the ranch. I would ask what his thoughts of "just north" would be. That would be an interesting conversation to say the least but if he or his guide tried to tell me that it was killed any other place than where it was truly killed then I would stand there and tell them they were lying.

You have my number,

Drummond

quote:

Originally posted by DesertTrophyHunts:
You have my number,

Drummond

At last something to agree with!

Lindsy,
I am pissed because I know now who you are and that is a silly kid that passes himself off as a booking agent for a ranch in Mexico, and someone who, by your own admission, has never hunted deer. You bloviate about the hunting in that area from conversations you hear at the local sporting goods stores, it's all old stuff from back in the 50s before the irradication of the screw worm, the price of deer, and the mind change of the local ranchers, many of whom have sold off the cattle, controlled the preditors and declared war on the poachers, and use the ranch for big trophy deer hunts......Thats the real truth, and every time I offer a good hunt to these folks, you get anxious, greedy and feel threatened by that fact..

Frankly, you should see a shrink, and join the real world....

Now we settled this once and I set up an appointment for you to meet with DK Boyd and even go look at some to the deer, and you wanted to help guide, but you never showed up..

What you are is a internet nut case and thats the end of my conversation with you.

LMAO, I try to pass myself off as a booking agent in Mexico? Are you fricking serious? I am the outfitter in Mexico, the pictures I have posted have been deer that my clients have killed while hunting wth ME, not somebody else. Your the one telling lies Ray, not me. Give me one piece of PROOF that I have told something that was not 100% fact. You cant do it, all you can do is run your mouth and try to degrade me by calling me a "silly kid" or a "troll". Your nothing more than an armchair quarterback that has NEVER posted a picture of a deer that one of your clients have killed. You will post bullshit stories and fabricate lies about a poached deer and then you claim to have killed bigger deer yet no pictures show up and you have the audacity to call me a liar. You have also not gotten your facts straight about my experience hunting deer. I have never personally killed a mule deer because I have spent the last 13 years guiding others to some giants. Over the past 13 years I have seen 18 deer on the ground that gross over 200" and an assload of deer that gross over 190". Hell Ray, in January of 2004 we killed 9 trophy bucks in Sonora and the average gross score was 193". We have had deer featured on the covers of MuleyCrazy Magazine as well as Eastmans Journal. We killed more deer in 2004 than your CLIENTS have ever killed and you want to get into a pissing contest about who knows more about big mule deer. Bring it OLD MAN, I will chew you up and spit you out, I can guarantee that I have forgotten more about hunting GIANT mule deer than you have ever known. I am not being a braggart by saying that because I know a lot more people that know a lot more about these big deer than I do but I have seen the shit you post and its absurd. It would be like me trying to talk about Africa, anybody that knows about Africa would know in the first sentence or two that I would not know what in the hell I was talking about. And that really is funny that I mention this because I am still waiting for a picture of the MYTHICAL 53" BUFFALO THAT YOU shot. You post a few pics of a really nice 40" buffalo you shot yet NO pics of the 53" GIANT? When you post the pictures of the HUGE deer your clients have shot that are bigger than the 46" deer why dont you go ahead and post a few pics of that buff as well. I can sniff out bullshit and you smell like a damn feedlot Ray. I am anxiously awaiting photos af your clients deer. You say that you have DK Boyd booked up through 2008, well these guys that are your clients must have killed a few good deer, post em up Ray. Hell, last year you posted a picture of a deer that a good friend of mine killed. Sure, it came off of DKs ranch but I want to see YOUR CLIENTS DEER!

"and every time I offer a good hunt to these folks, you get anxious, greedy and feel threatened by that fact.."

No Ray, once again you are wrong, every time you offer a hunt to the fine people of AR you lace your offers with so much bullshit that I feel compelled to call you on it and it pisses you off because you know that I have your number. I live in this country Ray, I am passionate about hunting big mule deer and when I read what you write I want to puke. Just tell it like it is, not everything has to be the "best trophy hunt in the world today". Why cant it just be what it is and that is a damn fun hunt with a reasonable chance to kill a really good deer. You spout off the numbers 200" and 40" and the only pictures you ever provide are pictures of a poached deer or a few pictures that the landowners have given you that show the best of what they have killed over the years. Hell Ray, post them all and let the folks here at AR know what was killed recently and what the true average buck was, not just what the best deer were.

Your the one that needs a shrink Ray, I read what you write about some of the hunts in this country and I wonder what color the moon is in your world. Whats a crying shame is that you have some of these guys eating up everything you write and as a booking agent I feel that you have a moral obligation to these guys to tell it like it really is and not feed them the bullshit you have been feeding them to try and book a few hunts. I guess my only advice to these guys is that if it sounds too good to be true.....


Drummond

PS, I did not think that an internet troll would post their name and phone number for all to see.

I have seen pictures of Drum's bucks before and have talked to quite a few that have hunted with him. He isn't a "kid" or a "troll". Dude knows his shit about big muleys and if I am not mistaken was along with someone I won't mention because he aint too popular around these parts in killing a 293 Arizona non typical last year. And no I'm not on the Drummond bandwagon. Don't really care for him from dealings at another message board but I do respect him and beleive him. So there, you have an opinion on a guy who I don't care for but knows his shit and is an expert in big muleys. Fire away.

I also don't know Drummond from a hole in the wall- and also am not on the Drummond bandwagon. Let's make that clear.

What I do know is that my cousin in Colorado had spoken with him and a client before, and he does apparently know Mulies and is not just some "troll", "silly kid", "nut case", or any other names that RAY cares to throw at him.

Name calling and defamation is not something anyone should be doing here.

Now, let's all play nice

quote:

Originally posted by CanadianLefty:
I also don't know Drummond from a hole in the wall- and also am not on the Drummond bandwagon. Let's make that clear.

What I do know is that my cousin in Colorado had spoken with him and a client before, and he does apparently know Mulies and is not just some "troll", "silly kid", "nut case", or any other names that RAY cares to throw at him.

Name calling and defamation is not something anyone should be doing here.

Now, let's all play nice

CanadianLefty, I don't know that there is a definition of troll that would satisfy everyone. One of the more commonly accepted meanings is one who posts soley for the purpose of attacking another, in a malicious way. That seems to apply at least in this thread to one of the parties. There was no concealment, no advocating of illegal or unethical practices, no pics stating that you will get one of these, yet these sentiments seem to be flauted as reasons for attack and belittlement. I don't disagree that name calling and defamation are not desireable, but self defence must be allowed for. You can't slam someone, then find fault with him because he acts in self defence.

As always, JMHO.

After reading this post, it sure made me sad to see where our sport is heading. Any more it is all about the big buck...commercialization of wildlife is killing the sport we all love.



MG

Madgoat:

It makes me sad to see someone who thinks that anyone who hunts for horns is somehow less of a hunter than someone who hunts for meat.

My ranch is in East Texas and I am a level 3 game management ranch. That translates into I am required to, can, and do shoot basically all the deer I care to eat and then some. I limit myself, my family, and anyone I allow to hunt on my place to one "trophy" a year. If it's a good one, great, if it isn't as good as they thought, well....there's always next year as long as it meets my minimum requirements for a trophy (normally waived for younsters or beginning hunters).

In fact, hunting for horns takes more patience, usually more skill, and, as you have observed, sometimes more money, than just hunting for meat.

I have nothing against someone who wants to shoot the first legal animal they can for meat, but I don't see why you should have a problem with someone wanting to wait for a trophy.

I booked this hunt with Mr. Atkinson and my only question was "Would I have to shoot or pay the kill fee if I didn't like the deer presented?" I was assured that the guide is only there to prevent shooting too small a buck I've never shot a trophy mule deer, they're kind of rare in E Texas, so I am looking forward to this hunt and will be glad to share with other AR members how it goes. If I don't shoot one, I'll expect that I've had a good time anyway, I usually do.

I thought that some of you guys might find this archived post interesting. I actually brought up the subject of the deer in question almost two years ago. Here is a link:

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3.../r/41110791#41110791

The picture is no longer there but I guarantee its the same deer. I have sent a couple of members a few pictures that were given to me by the man that killed the deer. I might post one or two of them at a later date.

Ray, just to let you know, I was in a meeting tonight when you called but if you are truly dead set on suing me go right ahead. I would love to be a fly on the wall when you talk to your attorney. That would be a priceless conversation to hear. I will be available tomorrow after about 5pm if you want to call and cuss some more.

I knew that you had left a VMX so I connected to my VMX and handed the phone to one of my counterparts and asked if he thought the crazy man that left the message was mad at me. He shot his iced tea out of his nose when he heard it. Thank you for the laugh in the middle of what was a pretty uneventful meeting.

Drummond

PS, Gato, I sincerely hope that you kill the buck of a lifetime on your hunt.

DTH, Thanks for pointing the shady sales tactics.

8MM OR MORE:

Drummond did post in an abrasive and direct manner...In fact, very un-Canadian! ...though, pretty accurate and fact based.

and...

Ray has every right and duty to defend or justify himself. He's also a great contributor to this forum..yadda yadda...

There are just better ways, on both sides, to communicate. I also felt, IMHO, that Ray was too quick to resorted to a name-calling defensive strategy, without trying to be fact-based and objective (in other words, taking the high road and admitting to the details behind his hunt offer; thus, putting an end to this story).

Cheers and best regards,
CL

Fatcat, I don't recall ever saying anything about thinking someone sho hunts for horns is less than a hunter than someone who hunts for meat. Maybe you missed the pun...maybe I should have typed Texan.

"Un tim I red a post that sur made me a grump gus..seems our sport is head'ed south. Any more tis 'bout them big bucks (here's the pun)..all this is gonna kilt huntin."

It absolutely disgusts me today, that hunting isn't about getting into the woods, away from work and home. Having a good time with friends or family and if you're lucky enough, getting an animal that is a trophy in your eyes or putting some protein on the table to feed your family.

Today, hunting is only about the almighty dollar, having the biggest buck on the wall to prove how manly you are, lawsuits, greed, shooting animals behind fences, "buying" animals at the highest price, less than ethical decisions while in the field to get "the big one", arguments, loss of hunting opportunity, how well my animal scores, pricing out the little guy, illegal outfitters & guides, trophy rooms,...did I mention LAWSUITS??

I have no problem with a guy wanting an opportunity to harvest a great animal, however we have gotten way outta hand and have gone too far.

It sickens me to see a few of us ruining the sport for the everyone!

MG

I can do that Drummond, and will, if you push me and win lose or draw its going to cost you a hell of a lot of money, Lawyers ain't cheap, so your arrogance may just be your downfall, There are other options also.

I talked to Billy and I did get several of those deer mixed up, One came from the gate at the Frying Pan, the one in the picture was from a rancher friend of his 40 miles away and the other was shot by some kids in Rankin or someplace..I got all the stories and am still not clear on them, nor is anyone I talked too. and I really could care less...

That point is, none of it has much to do with anything but your personal ego and mean thinking...

What I do know and all I care about is that there is an area that exist from about Midland/Odessa up to Goldsmith and on to Carlsbad to as far as Lovington NM..that has some awsome deer and I am trying to tie up as many of those ranches as I can get, because I believe the Trophy Mule deer to be the most sought after game animal in the USA, and no, I'm not a salesman, anyone that knows me can testify to that..but I am in the Hunting business full time, and that is the way I make my living and feed my family and when someone, for no apparant reason, other than being a jerk interferes with that business, then I am left with only a few choices to stop it, Same with Billy and he is trying to contact you btw. However, he is leaving for Zimbabwe today and may have to wait until he gets back...

In my opinnion all this picky crap you have come up with and started a slander on me is just that picky little crap, that has no substance at all, it just does not mean squat in my books, or for anyone that is seriously looking for a hunt...It's ridiculas, had you simply called me and discussed it, it could have been settled..

All in the world I want to do is give someone on AR an opertunity to book a hunt for a great chance at a great mule deer, and would hope it would be appreciated, not to be challanged by the "competition", IF thats what you are...

That opertunity has been accepted by one of the forum members and several others would have taken it, so thats it as far as I am concerned...Your stuff was for nought. and anyone that took up your cause, wouldn't book with me anyway, so where does all this stuff get us..

But I am tired of it, and if I must then I will have my lawyer, Ben Love, Marathon,Tex., contact you if you insist on this route, have no doubt about that, and that is something I have not done in many years, not since Darron Proctor, you probably know him, another proclaimed outfitter from your town...

At any rate, I think we should settle this between ourselves, how we do that I will leave up to you, I'm willing to pay and I'm game for however you want to settle it.

DTH: Do you make it a habit of going around forums and "policing" every claim that is made by other outfitters? I mean, it is one thing to call someone on complete bullshit, but this has been the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen on a forum.

You remind me of Bill Clinton questioning the court: "it really depends on what your definition of is, is"......

All in the name of free speech I guess....

oh, check this out.....

Theoutfitterpolice.com

Interesting hobby.

IV

Ray,

I am not wading into your fight with DTH but I think you would sue for libel rather then slander. In addition you may want to check your attorney's name in Texas as he is registered with the Texas State Bar but he is listed as deceased.


BENJAMIN LOVE

Bar Card Number*: 00796049


Work Address 901 MAIN ST STE 4000
BANK OF AMERICA PLZ
DALLAS, TX, 75202


Work Phone Number (214) 672-2172

Primary Practice Location DALLAS , Texas

Current Member Status
Deceased

License Information
State Bar Card Number*: 00796049
Texas Licensed*: 09/12/1996


In addition the Ben Love in Marathon, Texas is listed as a Real Estate Agent.

Well the way I see it is Ray, by his own admission, had a few bucks and how they were killed mixed up. No big deal.

And, having talked with DL on the phone, my take was that he simply wanted the readers to know the truth behind the big 46" deer.

I'm not an outfitter, but I guess if I was one, I'd want folks to know the truth behind big deer kills regardless of where and who did it.

Ray seems very sincere that he wasn't 100% accurate on the deer and came right out and said it. Some men would never do that.

My suggestion is this (having several attorneys as friends), NEITHER OF YOU SHOULD ACT ON EMOTIONS RIGHT NOW. For goodness sakes, don't get attorneys involved in this. The details around these things will get far more people involved for depositions, and attorneys offer but one fee, and that is for TIME! And they can charge you for every 10 minute bracket. Meaning, if they spend even one minute on the phone, they just charged you 10 minutes.

Wouldn't you both REAAALLY like to just drink a glass of sherry, call each other on the phone, state your position and just leave it at that? I don't know about you, but I'd much rather invest my HARD EARNED MONEY in a new scope,rifle, hunt, my KIDS, or something other than writing out a check once per month to my attorney for all his TIME he's spending on a case that will ultimatley go to ARBITRATION before a judge.

You guys are both grown men in a great business, hunting. Think of your similarities and not your differences PLEASE.

Hell, I'll book a hunt with both of you if you will both just be bigger about this!

Sherry!

How about some Glenlivit?

Tnomen,
Ben is Benjamin and he was my neighbor when I ranched at Marathon, and he is my best friend in this world...He is a lawyer, practices law in Marathon and is also a real estate broker both in the USA and in Argintina where he owns another ranch or two?? He owns the Persimmon Gap Ranch south of Marathon, Texas where the Marathon to Big Bend National Park Rd enters the park...Spent many days working cattle on his ranch and mine that is the last ranch on the right, called the Rosillas Ranch, and it may be a part of the park now, not sure if that ever went through, about all that other stuff you mention, I have no clue...

also your referring to his father....

I read this post when it had no responses to it. The first thing that jumped to mind was the Poached buck met the same description as the the one being used to promote this Hunting Operation.

Now, blast me all you want and call your lawyer to threaten me, but I think it is wrong to use a POACHED animal for MONETARY GAIN.

I personally appreciate seeing a spade called a spade. False advertising, hypocracy, and flat out dishonesty are bad business. When somebody pulls it, they should be called on it. With respect to the outfitter police referenced above... I'd be DAMN pissed if I were an outfitter and some jackass was using my photos to promote their business.

I've been looking at Atkinson's web-site and have seen his offerings of giant pronghorn, mule deer, and canned elk hunts over the years. Results doesn't match the mouth and he apparently hates having his bluff called.

Threatening lawsuits is a typical response for somebody of his caliber.

Thats an interesting point DTH, (oops..I mean tnomen...er....MonkeySpanker.....)

Do you really think people at AR are this stupid?

Idaho "Please wait while a create another fictitious log in" Vandal

I've never hunted Mule Deer in Texas, but I do know Ray. I've booked with him for years. I once had a buggered up hunt. I got a total refund after the fact. That speaks volumes about the guy.

I've noticed that the guy who pisses the most usually has the shortest member, btw. And if anyone who trashes another through the internet needs that satisfaction, maybe they need a productive hobby, like visiting a V.A. hospital, or something.

Self-righteousness ain't an asset, be it in Howard Dean or on AR.

you beat me to it Idaho vandal

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:

I've noticed that the guy who pisses the most usually has the shortest member, btw.

And you'll all note I've never pissed off the Judge...

-Steve

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:

I've noticed that the guy who pisses the most usually has the shortest member, btw.

Just call me Clyde S. Dale.

quote:

Thats an interesting point DTH, (oops..I mean tnomen...er....MonkeySpanker.....)

Do you really think people at AR are this stupid?

Well, do want the truth....

Having been in a pissin match on a similar topic with Atkinson regarding his blowhardedness, and having him send me a carpet bombing of emails, make phone calls, continue to attach and lie, etc... I choose to stay anonymous. I've never met DTH, but I do get groupemails occassionally and notice that his email "huntsonora' address is included in the recipient list. Like I said originally DTH.. go going. Pointing out BS is appreciated.

To think there is any "competition" in Atkinson and DTH on trophy mule deer hunts... beyond hilarious.

That was funny....

DesertTrophyHunter logs off (the name disappears at the top) and MonkeySpanker logs on 30 seconds later and posts. Then, DTH hits 'contol N' and WOW! Hes back! And now they are both on!

You do think most of us are stupid.




Awesome!

Well, I can guarantee that I am not MonkeySpanker and I think that it is interesting that we are online at the same time. I have been called a lot of things in my time but "computer genius" is not one of them, I can barely work one computer much less two.

Drum

Riiiiggghhhhtt.......

The word usage, the ALL CAPITAL LETTERS for your superlatives.....
MS:
Well,....
and then DTH:
Well,....

You funny guy!


DesertTrophyHunts------->

Idaho "Too much time on my hands" Vandal

You and KentuckyMountainMan oughtta get together.....

Just think, now that we know that Deep Throat was W.Mark Felt ( an Idaho Vandal Alumnus) maybe we'll always wonder if you are actually KentuckyMountainMan.....

HeeHeeHeeHee...HaaHaaHaa.....

And now they have both logged off wthin 30 seconds of each other.....

Good riddance!

I think if you are going to advertise a deer of that size, (Texas No 1, 46 " spread, 30" beams) on a hunt that you represent, I think it would be a good idea to know exactly how, when and where the deer was taken. I dont know for sure, but I'll bet a dollar to a donut your attorny will give you that advise. Just my 2 cents.
KCR

Another "New Member".....






Still at it.......

quote:

Originally posted by IdahoVandal:
That was funny....

DesertTrophyHunter logs off (the name disappears at the top) and MonkeySpanker logs on 30 seconds later and posts. Then, DTH hits 'contol N' and WOW! Hes back! And now they are both on!

You do think most of us are stupid.




Awesome!

That is hilarious, don't you just love it when some internet genius decides to provide his own cheering squad. Yep, it takes a real genius to come up with such an original scheme.

How can someone register as a new member from the same computer? I thought we had to provide an email to sign on.

So are you guys saying I can sign up as a new member and talk with myself?

How do you do that? What does pressing Cntrl N do?

I hit control N and got this

Well, its obvious that IV is trying to take the attention away from the original thread and thats fine, it really does not bother me at all. I have no reason to create my own "cheering" section, I posted my name and phone number for all to see, I am not going to create ficticious names to try and bolster my arguement. I am just not the kind of person to do that. I actually talked to another member here on AR yesterday afternoon about a completely unrelated subject concerning Sonora and I am sure that they could attest to the fact that I was calling on doctors in Plainview Texas which is 45 miles north of Lubbock. I did not get back to the house until about 5:30 yesterday and was then at a dinner with a doctor at Stellas here in Lubbock until about 8:45 or so. Furthermore, I am so computer illiterate I can barely spell computer much less make it to where I am online at the same time with a fake name I created. Your giving me WAY too much credit.

Drummond