Confirmed my thoughts! You were born in the big horn basin of Wyo? Your a niner! I new it. A Big Horn county resident! I NEW IT! It shows buddy, now I know what to expect.

First off Kudu, I am not a "9-er". I grew up in the high country of Sunlight Basin (unlike you...flatlander).
Secondly, RMK lets see some data (from something other than a comic book or magazine)??? You stated "deer and antelope have been in decline for the past 12 years". Where are you getting all this information?? I haven't seen you out counting deer or antelope. Besides, antelope numbers have NEVER been over a million in WYoming!!! I doubt you can even read, and judging by your use of language I highly doubt you even got past the 7th grade (it shows, I enjoy watching you work your magic with four letter words and prove to all the other forum readers just how stupid you are).
I also enjoy watching you contradict yourself. People like RMK and KUDU are the problems in this state. They are the one's who bitch about everything, blame everyone and everything except themselves. I don't recall either of you being able to have a logical idea to solve anything..only bitching. You have no scientific data to prove any of your concepts...only a synapse or two between your ears that you believe to be rational thought.

It's really simple goatchoker,the figures are straight from the GF. If you'd go to a few of the town meetings that GF holds every year,you'd know this. Its not a big secret,you're the only dumb fuck that can't comprehend anything.

Grew up in Sunlight? No one grows up in Sunlight, they either live there or have summmer cabins there. Then you must have been born in Cody. If you grew up in Sunlight your dad must have been a warden or forest service employee. There are no other jobs except in Cooke City. Your full of it. If you lived in Cooke you are a Montanan then?

Licenses are all about money, nothing else, not management, not conservation, not hunters. TO me the best way to counter the G&F is buy a doe/ fawn tag and not use it. Also there are many areas where you can get two and three doe /fawn tags.

Damn kudu,goatchoker didn't think you'd catch him in a bullshit fairy tale. This fuckin' idiot goatchoker and 43deer are just a couple pissed off out of state douche bags,that don't like the price of nonresident tags.

Wrong Kudu. Nowhere in the state can a person get 3 d/f tags. Two, yes. Not three.

Love,
43deer

Ok Ok! I will relent on the number of deer you can shoot.

5 years ago, I have the orders, there are some areas where you can shoot 3, and about 8 years ago down in the Farson or Pinedale area you could shoot 6 D/F and one buck.

Thats right goatchoker,they do have plenty of money and every couple years,they revise their license fees and generate more money. Very little if any of the money generated by fines goes to schools. The majority of funds going to schools,is generated off of state land leases,which is a whole subject in itself.



Goatchoker,you're a prime example of what happens when brother and sister reproduce.

RMK, you're an idiot. Bond money from fines collected from the WHP, County SO's and G&F goes to the school district in the county where the crime was committed...dumbass. You ought to know that, I'm sure you've gotten your fair share or tickets.
Oh yea, and if the G&F has the power to just "raise" their hunting and fishing fees, why do they take the time to run it throught the legislature first??

Move back to CA monkey boy.

MG

Well goatchoker,when was the last time legislature turned down a proposed fee hike. They don't deny the chance to make money,they're just as fuckin' greedy as GF is. Going through legislature is a formality for the GF,they already know the outcome going into it and that is a guaranteed fee increase.


Not all fines go to the schools,a percentage of revenue generated from fines goes to schools. I'm sure you had yourself convinced(so it wasn't a total waste that you're a fuckin' degenerate) that all the fines you've paid goatchoker(like when you got arrested for beating your boyfriend and drunk driving),were paying for school services.

Well, if you're only applying in limited quota areas and throwing away extra doe/fawn tags, you're not doing much for wildlife management. Many areas have extra tags due to landowner tolerances (oh yea, that G&F pays for damage to private land from these critters) and general range/habitat conditions. If the land can only support 50 through the winter (and have them make it in decent shape come spring, considering that does/cows have been pregnant this whole time) no sense being conservative with tags if it all is going to die anyhow. May as well have them go home in the back of some happy hunter's truck that die on poor winter range. According to you though, the G&F just sits in their offices and think "hmmm, what area can we wipe out our only source of funding to make a quick buck?" Yea, that is smart. How many corporations do you see cutting their own throat like that??? If management was up to you two, everything would have eaten itself out of house and home and be worm food. Either that, or all the ranchers would have been so pissed off they would have done it themself.
Why am I even wasting my time to have rational thought and type all this crap out? RMK will just reply with "goatchoker" remark and a few choice 4-letter words to prove his ignorance.
I believe you said "I don't have to kill to be a hunter", well, I don't have to either, but I'm not below hunting a doe if it means a better winter for the rest of them. Yea, I do my part and hunt a doe or fawn and am proud of it.


MG

now your getting to the real answer to all this. why waste your time trying to reason with what your trying to reason with. ignore the ignorance and move on. you have nothing to prove. the few opinions that are still being expressed here are not the whole anyway and are only one sided. the problems are greater than these but a few of the voices being expressed here will never be heard whether right or wrong due to the manner in which they are expressed. ignorance gets ignored.

Yes,you are a stupid fuckin' goatchoker,therefore you'll be addressed as such. You'd shoot a doe,for no other reason then you're too lazy and lack the required skills to pursue anything else.



The game and fish gamble alot.But what do they care,the public is the one that picks up the bill.





The fish and game over issue tags in nearly every area,because they're betting that a high percentage of people won't use their tag,won't fill a tag and only a small percentage of license holders will be successful. They know going into it,that during the duration of a given season,you'll only have so many weekends that the majority of license holders have to hunt and they're fully counting on a lack of success.The vast majority of general elk areas,are dogshit areas,becuase of a lack of public access and a ton of private surrounding area that gives elk a safe haven.GF knows going in that they can issue tags out the ass and suffer no chance of over harvest and generate a ton of money from license sales. So Gf tries to first blanket what little public access there is with as many hunters as possible,so that a few will kill an elk and also at the same time maximize tag sales for an animal that they know full well 95% of hunters will never see let alone kill. They lost that bet in the early 90's when they over issued doe fawn tags and success went out the roof.



The truth is,if half the areas in the state actually had 50% success in harvest,the area would be in big trouble which most areas are in trouble anyway and GF is praying their ass off that success won't be that high.Most areas don't even possess an animal population,that could fill 50% of the available tags for that area. I put little faith in the GF's success calculations or anything else. Mainly because of the way they gather info. They send out mail in surveys,that they in return recieve only a small percentage mailed back. Then they're faced with wether the info provided is truthful. If they recieve 10 surveys and five of them claim success in harvesting an animal,then gf calls that 50% success in the area. They don't do many game check stations anymore,so their first hand knowledge is reduced even more.Field contact with a GF warden is down also.

Snider and Madgoat, it is a quite common for over half of our gun club members to buy doe fawn tags and not shoot a doe or fawn. it might be to staive off starvation but it is a wat to ballance the books and bring in short falls where the G&F had to cut license numbers. Plain and simple it is about money #1, pacifying hunters #2, and game management last! The majority of doe/fawn tags go to non-residents, as there are always tags left that go to the last draw. In the north west part of the state there is no over population of anything, elk almost but madgoats wolves have taken care of that over population problem.

i've got no dog in this fight, and i have no clue on the regulations and situations in wyoming, but here in montana the does outnumber the bucks by quite a wide margin. i have absolutely no problem shooting a doe or two for meat, that is simply the type of hunter i am. at the same time, if i come across a big buck, then he is the one i will shoot.

i was pretty surprised at rmk's comment,i don't see where shooting a doe is any less "hunting" than shooting a buck, if we are talking about meat hunting. obviously, for trophy hunting, the situation would be different.

I don't believe shooting doe's is less then hunting,I was aiming the statement at goatchoker who is a class A dumb fuck.

What I do believe,is too many doe's and fawns have been shot and the over issue of these tags has been the cause.
I believe you'd be hard pressed to find an area in the west where does don't outnumber bucks. I routinely see more does then bucks in the field. The problem is you're now seeing fewer of both,then ever before and you're paying more money out for supposed management of the species.

Now that over 200 head of elk have died in South West Wyoming and many more sick, what will the G&F do with the non-resident tags it has already sold? Not a damn thing, they won't part with the money.

You're only talking about 60 licenses (based upon last years license numbers). They will probably do the same they did with bighorn sheep in area 7 during the die off of 2001/2002. Offer those hunters their $$ back. They do the same thing during the fires of 88, 99, and 2000.

Besides, the drawing hasn't been held yet for nonresident elk, and the over all quotas for the hunt areas haven't been decided on so they have a lot of flexibility.

Why should you care kudu, you obviously don't give a rat's behind about wildlife in Wyoming unless it is carrying a set of antlers that will book. You have already done everything but said it from you other posts.

MG

The results for the Elk draw at last Saturday's, tentative draw date 02/21/04, are Due out and available tommorow, 02/28/04.

Oh no marsh mule. Goatchoker couldn't be full of shit.

I bet if you applied for 108 and called the G&F, they would give you a refund.

The draw is done, I hunt a little closer to home. I don't need to kill a doe or cow just so I can kill. The kill isn't that important nor is success. I just like being able to see a buck or two during the season and not 400 hunters. That is why I hunt limited quota, which where I hunt they are any deer or any elk. The bucks are far and few between. As for elk, if I draw, there are quite a few bulls. Until the wolves get done. It is my choice!

I really don't need to explain myself to you fuck heads any way. The Wy G&F is still the best deal in the field.
It is still about money, the G&F has to raise X amount of dollars in order to maintian what they and we have. They will balance the books by killing does, fawn, and cows.

KUDU "I really don't need to explain myself to you fuck heads any way. The Wy G&F is still the best deal in the field.
It is still about money, the G&F has to raise X amount of dollars in order to maintian what they and we have. They will balance the books by killing does, fawn, and cows."

Too bad the WY legislature thinks of the G&F as the ugly stepson. Year after year, they get screwed on any sort of alternative funding besides license fee increases. Everyone is quick to want something from the G&F, but no one has figured out that all this stuff takes $$$$. Then you add in CWD, wolves, bears, bruscellosis, competing with outfitters, drought, poor habitat, bogus forage compensation plans (from this years legislative session) and it is no wonder why they're broke. It is time someone besides sportsmen and women picked up the bill for all the crap the G&F has gotten stuck with.

I highly doubt they will "balance the books" with a few reduced price cow/calf and doe/fawn tags.

MG

Its real simple goatchoker,the wyoming legislature doesn't give that many alternative funds to the GF. Because they instead allow GF to raise all their license fees constantly. They have a bullshit processing fee on all their limited quota tags,which they'll continue to raise the fee on, plus the license fee increases evey couple years or sooner.

I'd really like to hear how the fuck GF competes with outfitters. They love outfitters. Every chance they get,they try to help them by backing set aside licenses,outfitter only areas for nonresidents. Considering that mostly nonresidents use outfitters and the GF hoses the nonresident for license fees. They both have a nice relationship. The only issue I've ever heard the GF complain about,with outfitters. Is the issue of hunting lease cost. It chaps GF's ass that some rancher is making 20 or 30 grand from a lease and the GF doesn't have their fingers in it.

The legislature doesn't give the G&F any funding!!! They allow them to increase their license fees to keep floating, but that is only a temporary fix. I would rather see the darn oil and gas industry (one of the main reasons why habitat destruction in Wyoming is rampant) fork over a couple million that the G&F can draw interest on (I believe the bill was called the Legacy Trust but the legislature was quick to round file it), that way license fees would stay where they are. The legislature has is pretty good right now, the G&F costs them nothing (not one penny of our tax dollars goes to the G&F). Why fund something that is free?? It doesn't matter that tourism & recreation (which includes hunting and fishing) is the #2 industry in the state...or that we have a $1.2 billion dollar surplus for this year alone.

Also, there are no "set aside" licenses just for outfitters. A long time ago, a BS law was created only allowing nonresidents the ability to hunt in the wilderness areas if accompanied by a resident guide, or an outfitter. A total BS law designed only for outfitters, by outfitters. A nonresident can fish, hike, hunt birds, pack his horses, and camp in the wilderness anytime he wants. However if he wants to kill a deer, oh my gosh, the guy has to has to hire on to one of these guys for BIG $$$$. Total crap..
Plus, places where "normal" folk used to have access to hunt and fish are being leased at obscene rates and shut off to regular Joe's who used to recreate there. This is shutting out the little guy...then folks wonder why the public land gets hit so hard.

Oh yea, to answer your question of "I'd really like to hear how the fuck GF competes with outfitters".
Say you have 30000 acres. In the past on those 30000 acres the landowner used to allow for 100 folks to hunt. That is 100 licenses. Now you have an outfitter move in. He takes only 25. Where are these guys going to hunt? Yea, some maybe are absorbed by other ranchers, etc. However most go to the public land. While the public land is getting the 75 guys, it is also getting 75 guys from the other 30000 acre ranches that have been leased out. No one wants to hunt with 1000 other guys, the nonresidents (who, in some places of Wyoming, spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in communities who depend on it for survival) stop coming because the year before it was such a cluster. Look at the quotas for non resident deer. You'll see that in the eastern part of the state many of those areas have thousands of leftovers because there is no place to hunt. Besides, it is the nonresident deer and antelope hunters that keep the G&F going, not the residents.
I'm not saying the ranchers are at fault for wanting to make a little $$$, but outfitters are kind of screwing everyone by putting such a price on wildlife.

MG

I never said there was set aside licenses goatchoker. I said GF is in favor of set aside licenses and supports the idea everytime it goes up for vote. The last time it came up for vote,was in 2002 and the only thing that prevented it from being passed was a Rep. from cody.

Secondly,only a handfull of ranches ever allowed large numbers of people to hunt their properties and even then most of the people were relatives and friends,it's never been the average guy hunting these ranches. The ranches that did allow 100's of people to hunt still allow it,because no outfitter in their right mind will pay a lease on property thats in worse shape then public lands.. On top of this,the majority of large acreage in wyoming,is owned by corporations and wealthy individuals,that run them as hobby ranches and don't lease to outfitters or allow the public on either.

The Gf gets some subsides from the state,you're stupid if you believe the state doesn't give them some funding.

The G&F does everything in thier power to give the outfitters a living. As far as I am concerned the state does not owe the outfitters a living! One law that should be tried in court is the "wilderness area" no nonresidents allowed to hunt with out a guide or resident with them.

They can fish,hike, ride horses, beat off, or about anything else in a wilderness area any time of the year but they can't hunt.

I highly doubt the G&F is in favor of allowing ranches, outfitters, or whoever to get "set aside" licenses. Why don't they just let them put up high fences and bring in a bunch of game farms (you probably think they support that too).
Secondly, for living along the east slope of the Bighorns you don't know much about "how it used to be". I have hunted the Sheridan area every year for the last 20, and I can tell you the access issue has changed dramatically in the last 10 years. I used to hunt all over the place way before these large corporate ranches took over. Sign of the times...access is going down the tubes as these guys buy and close everything up. I think you would be suprised just how many of these are leased by outfitters, or are outfitted on.
Oh yea, name one source of funding the G&F gets from the state (and you can't include federal sources like the Dingle/Johnson, Pittman/Robertson, or Wallop/Breau). I am more than confident you can't come up with one (because there isn't). The G&F is totally self sufficient.
MG

The Legislature seems to think that the G&F has way too much money on their hands. They canned the Legacy trust and lottery, but are all for the forage compensation thing. Funny, when most of the legislators are ranchers. Lets all watch as this forage compensation deal hits home and license prices really skyrocket. Maybe next year, the Legislature will (should) change the Wyoming Game and Fish Department to the Wyoming Cattle and Grass Department. How sad. It's funny when you hear people who live in Wyoming brag about why they like to live here... The wildlife, the hunting, the fishing, the open spaces... But then they elect these morons who insist that the only way of life here is ranching (but they are sooo poor that they must rely on G&F money to pay for the grass that the elk eat), and mining (which nobody can argue is a death sentance to wildlife). For a while I had hopes that our new governer would change things. I was very excited to have him elected... he is the first Democrat I have ever voted for (I threw that in to avoid political arguements), but I can see that he is now just fighting for re-election in a few years. If Wyoming residents really cared about wildlife and hunting, our elections would show that; which they don't. Thus, I assume that Wyoming residents really don't give a shit what happens to mule deer, antelope and especially elk. I know Wyoming residents hate wolves, that's common sence. How sad it would be when the average Wyoming resident would be applying for Colorado elk tags for that once in a lifetime experience. Wyoming will just be a "wild and scenic horse and wolf viewing opportunity", because our legislators are too limp dicked to act on anything other than what their neighbor who raises 29 cattle says they should.

I support Gov Dave. I'm proud to have him here, and the wolf issue would be 100X worse without him. My last post may have looked a little anti Dave, but that was not the intent. I'm still proud to have voted for him....

"As far as I am concerned the state does not owe the outfitters a living! One law that should be tried in court is the "wilderness area" no nonresidents allowed to hunt with out a guide or resident with them."
I would agree with you there Kudu...I don't know what fairy land world RMK lives in though. The G&F is totally self sufficient and receives no $$$ from the legislature or tax payers (except exise taxes on hunting and fishing gear). Selling a few "REDUCED PRICED" doe/fawn or cow/calf tags isn't going to make up for any budget shortfalls. It is just too bad that sportsmen don't give a rat's butt about wildlife in this state unless it is a 30" buck or a 350 class bull. To make things worse, the legislature in this state keeps on piling things up for the G&F to pay for (stupid forage compensation bill). Then folks wonder why their license fees increase.

MG

I fell out of my chair! You AGREED with me? I hope you read that wilderness line like I meant it.

I honestly think the non-residents are being discriminated agaisnt.

In 2002 I think there was almost 12,000 cow and calf elk shot. Over half were additional tags.


But there was only 6700 doe and fawns killed! I think that is a sizable sum of cash even at half price.

No goatchoker,the GF doesn't support high fence operations,because they wouldn't be able to charge a license fee on the animals shot on the ranch,since ownership of the animals would be that of the ranches. In fact the NX bar ranch is a thorn in their side and has been for years. The problem is,the original owner of the ranch was a game and fish commissioner years back and gave himself permission to start the game ranch.


The GF has supported the
use of set aside licenses every time the Outfitters lobby for this type of license. They see it as a good source of guaranteed license sales. Not to mention, once passed they'd raise the price of these tags and generate more money. It would take licenses away from other nonresidents,who aren't using an outfitter,plus the GF would get greedy enough,that they'd start reducing the number of resident tags and increase set aside tag numbers.



You obviously haven't been hunting the face of the bighorns for 20 years,because the access went to shit 25 and 30 years ago not 10 years ago. Most of the ranches on the face changed hands 25 and 30 years ago,after the original owners in most cases went bankrupt.These ranches never allowed alot of people on to hunt,regardless of ownership.


One undisputable source of funding for the GF from the state. Is medical and retirement for GF employees,not to mention yearly salaries.

Ya old Dave. The only reason Dave beat out bebout,is because eli was even more crooked then old Dave is. The majority of people that vote in wyoming,are retirees and state employees. Dave talked a good line of shit,and eli had already investigated the potential of nuclear waste disposal in wyoming and the public heard about it. Eli didn't even have the support of most of his own party members.

Dave's surplus is a fuckin' joke. He put a freeze on all state employee (no I'm not a state employee)wages,even those that had signed wage increase contracts prior to his election. Dave likes to put all his eggs in one basket and call it a surplus. His surplus,is the direct result of robbing his own employees. He loves to talk about how this methane in the state has raised all this money. What he fails to tell you. Is when the coal bed methane boom is over,the public is going to pick up the tab on 70% of reclamation and clean up,on this industry.

One of the governor hopefuls during the campaign race,pointed out the decline in tax revenue generated by taxes on coal. Wyoming currently generates half as much taxes off of coal as it did during the 70's and early 80's,yet the mining industry is producing 3 times the amount of coal as in the 70's and 80's. All this equals dollars lost,because Dave is in bed with the variuos corporations around the state and chooses not to tax these corporations at a higher rate,like they should be.

Well RMK, I have hunted the east face of the Bighorns for the last 20 years, and I still have places to hunt there. I'm sure one look at you RMK, and even the biggest dirtbag rancher wouldn't let your sorry ass step foot on his place. With your attitude, you were probably kicked off places well before the big corporate ranches came.
Even some of those guys will let a person on to hunt.

And as far as those large ranches going under...you're drunk if you think that. I can think of a dozen ranches along the face that have been there for 25+ years!!!

Goatchoker,with the talent you have for sucking dick and your willingness to swallow,I'm sure you get access to alot of things.

With your specialty of shooting monster doe's and fawns,I'm sure you do hunt some of the ranches on the face. Most of them are trying to do their own game management and allow doe's and occasionally cows to be shot by the public.
Whitetail doe's are a dime a dozen and several of these corprate assholes can't get enough hunters to shoot whitetail doe's. They want to sell bucks for thousands of dollars,but they'll do you favor by allowing you the privelage of killing a doe for them. Ya goatchoker,I'm sure you put on your kneepads and drive door to door looking for a killer doe/fawn hunt and the chance to blow one of these trust fund assholes to show your deep appreciation.
As for your finding of ranches that have been there for 25+ plus years goatchoker,big deal. I said they changed hands after the original owners sold or went bankrupt,many of the ranches are still operated under the same names and brands,but differant owners and of course there's a few that have never sold.

I'm sure you have gotten kicked off several of these ranches for the way you doe hunt. If you are anything close to the type of hunter I think you are, you probably sit in the truck and drive around all day and then complain about the lack of game. Besides, I am sure that your ethics rank right up there with the worst of them. I wouldn't let you drive by my place, let alone carry a gun there!!! I'm sure it doesn't take long for the rancher dudes to figure that out as well.
It is just too bad you don't know as much as you think you do...just more examples of your ignorance, and ability to shovel thread after thread of crap.

Just to set things straight...
RMK "In fact the NX bar ranch is a thorn in their side and has been for years. The problem is,the original owner of the ranch was a game and fish commissioner years back and gave himself permission to start the game ranch."
Actually, he was in the legislature, not a game and fish commissioner.
Get your facts together before you let your fingers type...what am I saying...have you ever???

Before you continue arguing with RMK consider the advice about not arguing with an idiot. Tony is on the right track except he still responds to this troll indirectly.