today with canned hunts and long range "hunting" i say that losely...what is the difference to you between a dead animal and a trophy...is hunting just a hike in the mountains and shoot an animal if you see one by chance if you are lucky at 300 yards with a tag in your pocket? or shooting a fenced in animal that is only half wild? what type of hunting that will end in an honerable kill will be a trophy to you? Can you defend yourself against the tree huggers when you kill an animal at sniper distances? this is a hunting ethics debate...try not to flame or rant but give your ideas and philosophy and we can chose to disagree but be open to be convinced.

To me, a trophy commorates a very special hunting experience. It has almost nothing to do with the dead animal.

If I have a great time with my friends, and I take a better than average head, I would have it mounted to remind me of the trip. There's no way in hell I would pay for a canned hunt just to get a great mount.

That's just my opion. Apparently, there are a lot of people with money who don't feel the same way.

RXM

One mans ethics is another mans deviance. As far as big game, I don't like to shoot @ unwounded running game or take any shot that has a very low percentage for a clean kill. I don't like shooting over bait or feeders, but that's me & I don't condemn others for it. Same reason I don't hunt deer w/ a .223 or other such debatable caliber, you can, but I won't. Canned hunting, I'ld rather stay home & BS on this site, fair chase or it's just killing. The trophy for me is the experience of the hunt, not the size of the animal.

The day I get to where I can no longer climb the mountains to hunt elk, or lose the drive and passion to hunt them where they actually live, is the day I hang up my rifle. I'd rather take up knitting than shoot something behind a high fence, period.

As to "long range" hunting... friend Mark Dobrenski who posts here is more competant at 500 yards than most guys I know are at 100 and that's the honest truth. When the trigger is pressed and the bullet leaves the barrel, "hunting" ceases and shooting begins, no matter if it's 50 or 500 yards. Guess I'm saying, "get over it" !

A "trophy" for me has less to do with size than it has to do with taking an animal fair and square on his turf. Shooting a bull elk that scores 385 in a private alfalfa field, for me, is less something to take real pride in than a 310 bull I worked my butt off to get on public ground... but don't take that to mean I'd turn down any offers to kill a 385 bull in an alfalfa field !

Maybe its because I am not a great hunter, but every animal I collect is a trophy. From a 4 oz quail to a 500 lb. whitetail, I am proud of it and take it under fair chase conditions. I pass on questionalbe shots, don't shot off the front pourch or out of a car, stop hunting at night and don't hunt out of season. I usually don't hunt the opening of Dove season here in Alabama because I feel that it opens too early and the birds are still on the nest. I don't hunt because I have to, but because I want to and I enjoy the challange. Will I put a head n the wall? You bet. But I will feel that I earned it if I do.
I have not felt the need to prove my manhood in a long time.
Just the way I feel about it.
Judge Sharpe

Hey Judge, got any pics og that chubby whitetail?

Going to a fenced property and paying money knowing you are going to get a trophy is a farce. In Biggar Saskatchewan the "big" buck spotted by a meat hunter became the trophy of a lifetime. There was NO planting of vitamins and minerals. There was NO deer feeding stations. It was being in the right place at the right time.
Shooting at long ranges is harder than a tree hugger can comprehend. The factors in success can be downright frustrating. For these reasons only competent shooters should bother, limited range hunters will be better off swallowing pride and accepting their limitations.

I don't consider either practice "hunting"; I support the rights of anyone who chooses to do either- at least those who shoot an animal in a pen have something (I dont know what??) more in them to look an animal in the eye and kill it and eat it. So many people enjoy a good steak, a burger at McD's or some other facet and don't appreciate that at some point something was killed. As far as "long range" hunting goes I think that thread has been beat to death more than once here-- I don't encourage the practice and personally consider the risks of wounding and losing an animal to far outweigh a benefit that I could just as easily derive from punching a piece of paper at 1000 yards.....

IV

I see things like this and wonder about the fact that the vast majority of people I've encountered don't have any ethics! I have been hunting here in California for the last few years. I think I've seen everything. Maybe not but I hope so.

It's common practice here to ride around shooting from vehicles, quads, ect. Law enforcement seems to be overwhelmed or underconcerned. They'd rather issue a parking citation for parking in the forest than get out of the truck and actually arrest a poacher! I've had a stalk on a three point blown by butt-wipes on quads while I was trying to teach my son to deer hunt. He has never gone deer hunting again! He's now in his first year of college. Don't you think it crosses my mind every time I see one? Don't you think I pre-judge everyone that has one?

Hunters with ethics are a scarce thing these days. Espescially down here. The lazy generation is teaching how to be lazy and dependant on someone or something else to get things done. I'm not against using pack horses, quads, or motor cycles to get in and out. But I am most definately against hunting from them.

Hunting requires some skill, planning, patience, and should end in a quick death for the animal.

I can't say I've never shot from my jeep. I got a coyote crossing the road on the ranch a few years ago. I've not shot a deer from the jeep, and although collecting some venison at the end of season for the freezer would not bother me, even from the vehicle, it would not be a trophy and I certainly wouldn't brag about it. Taking some meat from the jeep is just that. Getting a trophy involves erning it and deserving it! Niether should be connected to the checkbook or a vehicle. Nate

judge got it right

quote:

As to "long range" hunting... friend Mark Dobrenski who posts here is more competant at 500 yards than most guys I know are at 100 and that's the honest truth. When the trigger is pressed and the bullet leaves the barrel, "hunting" ceases and shooting begins, no matter if it's 50 or 500 yards. Guess I'm saying, "get over it" !

Brad, I think there is a difference between someone who is a skilled rifleman capable of making a long shot on occasion and someone who intentionally shoots at as long a distance as possible. I'm in complete agreement when it comes to high fences. To me bragging about a game animal shot behind a high fence is the same as having a beautiful woman on your arm when you can't get an erection.

Jeff

Boom Stick, it sounds to me as though you came up with this thread as a means of championing the use of some close-range, pumpkin-roller cartridge such as the 45-70 as being a more "ethical" hunting option than a more modern, flatter-shooting cartridge such as the 270 Win............

AD

quote:

Brad, I think there is a difference between someone who is a skilled rifleman capable of making a long shot on occasion and someone who intentionally shoots at as long a distance as possible. I'm in complete agreement when it comes to high fences. To me bragging about a game animal shot behind a high fence is the same as having a beautiful woman on your arm when you can't get an erection.

Jeff

I agree on all counts including the last!

Any careful hunter will always work to get closer no matter his prowess with a rifle. Game should not be a platform to excercise our ego and every possible step should be taken to insure a clean and humane kill. My point was that a good rifleman might be more "ehtical" taking game at 500 yards than a jazbo shooting 25 yards out of his truck or another jazbo shooting at running game at 50 yards with his 45-70.

Funny, many who will condemn a 500 yard shot at a stationary game animal even under good conditions will think nothing of blasting away at running game...

quote:

The day I get to where I can no longer climb the mountains to hunt elk, ...is the day I hang up my rifle.

That sounds like me, except I'm not giving up hunting just for some physical problem, I enjoy it too much.

It sounds like the handicapped shouldn't hunt from this perspective.

And I have to say I personally strongly disagree with the idea.

http://www.backcountryhunters.org

Check 'em out.

Joe

I feel like I should be fishing with all of this trolling going on.

Browning, if you notice the question it's adressed to individual's and their own personal preferences, hence my liberal use of "I" in MY post. I could care less what you or anyone else wants to do, I only speak for my personal motivation... capiche?

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
Boom Stick, it sounds to me as though you came up with this thread as a means of championing the use of some close-range, pumpkin-roller cartridge such as the 45-70 as being a more "ethical" hunting option than a more modern, flatter-shooting cartridge such as the 270 Win............

AD

not at all...i think the 270 is great...practicing at 300 yards gives you good accuracy at 100 yards...i am not trying to convert anyone to the 45-70 time and wisdom does (sorry about that) seriously...this ia strictly an ethics thread...right now i am reading "in defense of hunting" and i am on an ethics kick right now...good book i recommend it my position is i encourage fair chase and "hunting" honor the animal by not having all of the advantage. no sport no game. remote hunting is an abomination bastardization and should be renounced...why? because it is a big moustrap and no hunting involved. maybe the bigger question is "what IS hunting and do you practice it" yes it requires skill to consistantly kill animals at 500 yards but does that make it hunting? it takes skill to do almost anything well. so why do you hunt? is it for seeing how good a shot you are? having fun with the guys being in nature or challenging your skills and abilities against the skills and abilities of the animal?...again...an ethics thread

quote:

so why do you hunt? is it for seeing how good a shot you are? having fun with the guys being in nature or challenging your skills and abilities against the skills and abilities of the animal?...

Yes, amoung other things. I can't figure out what you are looking for? I'm not sure there is a one size fits all answer.

Jeff

*** TRUE NEED HUNTER ***

Just recently said my piece on another thread .

--- I have never , and WILL never take a trophy animal , -- unless I need the Meat badly , ant that tough old SOB is the only animal I can scare up , for the day .

One of my favorite things in life is seeing lots of big animals in the Country I'm moving through . --- I put high store on just watching them , -- stalking in close to them , and photographing them , to prove I could have made the shot .

Still-Hunting them to within easy shot range , -- is my new hobby . And , I feel real good about it .

If I needed the Meat , -- or even if It would help financially , -- I would enjoy the hunt , to the fullest .

But I fully subscribe to the old Mt. Man addage : Fat Cow beats Poor Bull , any day .

I know hunters who won't shoot a Doe , -- it's some kind of a self-image thing about killing females . Don't Males want to live as bad as Females ? --- Don't make any sense to me .

But it seems arbitrary , at the least , -- and kind of morbid , in the extreme , to Kill anything ,( especially higher animals ) , when it would be less expensive to trot down to the Supermarket and buy good Beef . ( Nothing better to me than a good medium-rare Steak .

To those who say , -- " . . . . yes , but you're causing the death of Animals, anyway , -- you just don't have the guts to do your own killing " ; --- I reply : You got this thing all twisted into your own Ego .

I've got no negative value judgements going on against Hunters , -- I consider myself a Hunter by nature and instinct .

I choose to further my cause , -- which is to do all I can to keep the Game herds healthy and numerous . --- That's my top priority in this business , -- and my greatest pleasure ; ( i.e. seeing lots of game animals around ) , when I'm enjoying being out in the Country .

I don't much enjoy the kill , except that it means I've been sucessful in getting Meat on the table . --- I always feel sorry for causing the Animal a moment or two of terror . -- But nature isn't too kind either , and often , Natural Death is terrible .

--- So , my idea of a perfect kill , is when the Animal doesn't know you're around , -- and doesn't know what hit it .

----- Don't need to kill them , to make any point , whatsoever .

Doesn't make me a bigger or better Animal .

Matter of fact , -- I kind of agree with the Native American way , ( some Tribes , at least ) , -- of sending up a prayer to The Great Spirit , -- and asking the Animals spirit to forgive me for taking its life .

Guess I feel a kind of Kinship with Critters , -- I do truely love Animals . -- no good Country is complete without lots of game around .

----- MY PERSONAL FEELINGS ONLY , GENTS .


----------------- MMCOUGAR .

quote:

Originally posted by Skibum:

quote:

so why do you hunt? is it for seeing how good a shot you are? having fun with the guys being in nature or challenging your skills and abilities against the skills and abilities of the animal?...

Yes, amoung other things. I can't figure out what you are looking for? I'm not sure there is a one size fits all answer.

Jeff

i am sorry my point was not clear it is good to have those things in your reasons but my philosophy is there needs to be hunting involved too

i am not looking for one answer it is an ethics philosophy thread..."i hunt this way because...ect"

quote:

Originally posted by BigNate:
I see things like this and wonder about the fact that the vast majority of people I've encountered don't have any ethics! I have been hunting here in California for the last few years. I think I've seen everything. Maybe not but I hope so.

It's common practice here to ride around shooting from vehicles, quads, ect. Law enforcement seems to be overwhelmed or underconcerned. They'd rather issue a parking citation for parking in the forest than get out of the truck and actually arrest a poacher! I've had a stalk on a three point blown by butt-wipes on quads while I was trying to teach my son to deer hunt. He has never gone deer hunting again! He's now in his first year of college. Don't you think it crosses my mind every time I see one? Don't you think I pre-judge everyone that has one?

Hunters with ethics are a scarce thing these days. Espescially down here. The lazy generation is teaching how to be lazy and dependant on someone or something else to get things done. I'm not against using pack horses, quads, or motor cycles to get in and out. But I am most definately against hunting from them.

Hunting requires some skill, planning, patience, and should end in a quick death for the animal.

I can't say I've never shot from my jeep. I got a coyote crossing the road on the ranch a few years ago. I've not shot a deer from the jeep, and although collecting some venison at the end of season for the freezer would not bother me, even from the vehicle, it would not be a trophy and I certainly wouldn't brag about it. Taking some meat from the jeep is just that. Getting a trophy involves erning it and deserving it! Niether should be connected to the checkbook or a vehicle. Nate

great post

better a live animal than an empty trophy i.m.o.

quote:

a jazbo shooting 25 yards out of his truck or another jazbo shooting at running game at 50 yards with his 45-70.

i obviously condem this...

45-70 is not confined to backwards unethical hunters, i hope you were not making that assumption. ive had a 300 wby but out beyond 100 yards in most cases it is not hunting for me. i can easily kill out to 200 yards with the 45-70 but if i am not HUNTING i wont.

Hey Boom Stick, I don’t believe all my answers will contribute to a “debate†on hunting ethics. If the Wildlife Department of a State says a method is Legal, then I’m for it. I may or may not choose to participate in the Legal activity though.

I’ll dispense with the questions that have little interest for me first:

quote:

…is hunting just a hike in the mountains and shoot an animal if you see one by chance if you are lucky at 300 yards with a tag in your pocket? or shooting a fenced in animal that is only half wild?

Since I’ve been fortunate to do a good bit of hunting in lots of States, I have indeed done the “Roaming-around-until-I-find-One†Hunt before. Always enjoyed seeing the new country and trying things that work in other conditions to see if they work in the new country as well.

Much better to see how the successful Locals go about their Hunting and compare methods. It seems I can always pick up something new when I listen intently to how they hunt. And it is always in the small details.

The Canned Hunts on small acreage don’t interest me. If it is Legal though, and someone wants to go do it, then I wish them the best of luck. With the Chronic Wasting Disease spreading around, all these places may soon be outlawed anyhow.

quote:

…what is the difference to you between a dead animal and a trophy...

Kind of a b-r-o-a-d ranging question. I’d guess my definition of Trophy varies depending on “who†we are actually talking about. For people that I take Hunting, some kills are Trophies for some of them that would not be for others. It might be best if I broke it into a few levels.

Level 1 – Beginners.
Seeing a beginning hunter(of any age) get his First Kill(s) is indeed a Trophy. You can see it in their eyes and movements as well as their words. The Hunt will be retold with a reverence for the facts and how the kill came about. And retold for the rest of their life with the same respect for the Kill.

Here the Skill is provided by the person assisting the Beginner. But even if it was pure luck by being in the right place, it doesn’t detract from the Beginner’s Kill being a Trophy.

The people taking the Beginners get as much enjoyment from the Hunt as the Beginners do. And to see a proud Father hugging the child after the Kill creates a special “Trophy Bondâ€.

Level 2 – Intermediate.
Next level up seems to be the intermediate hunters who actually Hunt with a particular method in mind. They have learned some Methods from their Elders, from Books, Videos, the net, but mostly from a few years(5-10) of good old First-Hand Experience.

They have tried things and failed. Might be wind shifts, moving too much, over-using a stand, leaving a scent trail as they Hunt, termite food stock that warped, and thousands of other things. Each experience taught a lesson and reinforced that many more Lessons were sure to come. At this level, they must exercise some “learned Skill†rather than having an Elder position them or be providing guidance for them during the Hunt. They employ an intentional Method for the hunt and if they make a Kill using the Method, it is indeed a Trophy.

Level 3 – Seasoned Hunter.
If a person sticks with hunting, they eventually arrive at this Level. They can view a piece of terrain and develop a Plan without any additional input for a Hunt that results in the “potential†for a Kill. Making the actual Kill varies in importance. This hunter might pass on many more opportunities to Kill than he takes. If the meat is needed, the Kill is made, but it is not necessarily a Trophy.

At this level, a lot of Skill is needed to accomplish a specific task or to Kill a specific Deer. Might even be a wise old Doe that has blown the Hunt for this hunter on previous occasions. Here the hunter is having to develop a Flexible Strategy and Pattern the Deer’s movements. It might take a few days, or a month to figure it out, but once the Seasoned Hunter Kills the specific Deer being pursued, it is a Trophy.

Perhaps this same Seasoned Hunter mentions to a buddy that he has noticed a particular Deer on a section of land, shares the pattern he has noticed and encourages the buddy to hunt that Deer using a specific Method. If the buddy follows the advice and makes the Kill, the Seasoned Hunter still has a Trophy(and a very special one).

And to toss a curve ball into these thoughts, if I walked outside right now and killed a BIG old WHOPPER Buck just passing by, it would be a memorable Trophy, because of where I am.

Level 4 – Trophy Story.
Here the Skill level of the hunter can be at any level. Something “unique†about the Hunt or the Kill must occur for the retelling of this story to be worthwhile and memorable. It can be “anything†that causes the story to be remembered and retold when hunters get together.

It can be from gut-busting funny, to sad, or anywhere in between. But whatever causes it to be retold. it is remembered forever by those that hear it. (I do love Level 4!)

quote:

what type of hunting that will end in an honorable kill will be a trophy to you?

An Honorable Kill would be Legal and using a Method you take pride in.

quote:

Can you defend yourself against the tree huggers when you kill an animal at sniper distances?

Bring them on! Distance has nothing at all to do with the situation, regardless of how many times it is brought up and debated.

You may be able to shoot and make clean Kills at distances longer than I do, or you might not shoot as far as I do. The “ethics key†is to have a very high probability for the Trigger Yanker of being able to make a clean 1-shot Kill at whatever the distance is.

*** COUPLE OF MORE THOUGHTS ***

According to my values , " Canned Hunts " , -- and Game-Farm Hunts , -- are just Artificial , -- and generally a contradiction to what Hunting means to me .

I think I Idealize , not so muth the activity of hunting ; --- but the lifestyle and way of life that it is symbolic of .

When I was about 14 yrs. old , I read a Book called " The Big Sky " , by A.B. Guthrie Jr.
( he later won the Pulitzer Prize for Literature ) .

It took you into the way of life of the early 1800's Fur Trappers , and their movement into the West , when it was all new .

Their ability to live off the land , yielded an independence , --- physically , and , of the spirit . -- That still impresses me today , and that , I hold close as an ideal , and as a yardstick of values .

Those , near mythical , individuals , ( Like John Coulter ) lived a life that just sort of naturally resonated in my soul .

Hunting , wasn't a Sport , least of all a Game , -- it was a way of living and surviving , -- and it was , under those conditions , --- in it's rightful place .

I know that it's an ideal that has little reality now . Nothing is like it was back then . --- But the values , and the memory of it , I think , is in our Genes .

If we are fortunate enough to be born with Hunter-genes , I think we know how it should be .

I think , when we are alone in wilderness country , hunting , -- we're very close to the exact experience that our Forefather Hunters felt , -- for the last few thousand years .

It should be , Fair Chase . It should be on the Animal's turf . --- And it should be just the Hunter , the Game , and the Country , -- as natural , and close to nature , as possible .

The Animal should fall , so that we can live and survive , --- nothing less .

Maybe that's too " idealistic " for some , and " unrealistic " for others nowdays ; -- but that's my values on the subject , and , damn , I do love it so .

Another thing that occured to me is that no one loves and respects Animals , like a true Hunter .

--------- MMCOUGAR .

I think that if I were an anti-hunter activist I'd start and fuel debates like this all over the forum boards to get hunters at each other's throats and to divide them so they would be easier to defeat.

Ethics? Bull Crap! Let the law decide that.

If a particular type of legal hunting makes you squeamish then don't do it.

What a bunch of girlie men!

Get away from the computers and go out and hunt and quit worrying about the ethics of other hunters that use legal hunting methods.

This new "kinder gentler" world makes me want to puke. I must be spawned from big city hunters that want to bring thir liberal attitudes to the woods.

"My hunting methods and ethics are better than yours" is a topic better left to college professors or CNN articles. Not traditional hunters.

If you broght that attitude into any of the deer camps I've ever been in you'd be laughed out of the woods.

GET A LIFE!!! Go hunting and leave this liberal crap to the bunny huggers.

$bob$

l.d. hunter...had your coffee yet?

if you dont like the thread start one of your own...here is a title

kill anything that moves no matter the distance, skill, age or season cuz animals are just targets, who cares about wounded animals.

(varnmits and overpopulated wolves are the exception)

quote:

I read a Book called " The Big Sky " , by A.B. Guthrie Jr.

thanks for the book suggestion

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
if you dont like the thread start one of your own...here is a title

If you don't like my post then start your own forum where you can control what other people say in response to your posts. Here on Accurate Reloading people are allowed to disagree.

$bob$

RXM:

quote:

To me, a trophy commorates a very special hunting experience. It has almost nothing to do with the dead animal.

If I have a great time with my friends, and I take a better than average head, I would have it mounted to remind me of the trip. There's no way in hell I would pay for a canned hunt just to get a great mount.

That's just my opion. Apparently, there are a lot of people with money who don't feel the same way.

RXM

Fredj338:

"One mans ethics is another mans deviance. As far as big game, I don't like to shoot @ unwounded running game or take any shot that has a very low percentage for a clean kill. I don't like shooting over bait or feeders, but that's me & I don't condemn others for it. Same reason I don't hunt deer w/ a .223 or other such debatable caliber, you can, but I won't. Canned hunting, I'ld rather stay home & BS on this site, fair chase or it's just killing. The trophy for me is the experience of the hunt, not the size of the animal."

Well said fellas, I agree 100%...

The game has to be in it's natural environment and found by me using my own senses and efforts, not via electronic gadgets, satellite imagery, etc. Binos excepted, lol.

quote:

Originally posted by LDHunter:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
if you dont like the thread start one of your own...here is a title

If you don't like my post then start your own forum where you can control what other people say in response to your posts. Here on Accurate Reloading people are allowed to disagree.

$bob$

exactly...i said "debate" meaning opposite viewpoints responses follow ups...what is not kosher here? you came out with the name calling in a "debate" thread...can you lay out your hunting ethics and defend them up without ad hominem name calling? i want to respect you, please dont dissapoint. all good intentions and taste on my part.

quote:

Fredj338:

"One mans ethics is another mans deviance. As far as big game, I don't like to shoot @ unwounded running game or take any shot that has a very low percentage for a clean kill. I don't like shooting over bait or feeders, but that's me & I don't condemn others for it. Same reason I don't hunt deer w/ a .223 or other such debatable caliber, you can, but I won't. Canned hunting, I'ld rather stay home & BS on this site, fair chase or it's just killing. The trophy for me is the experience of the hunt, not the size of the animal."

Well said fellas, I agree 100%...

The game has to be in it's natural environment and found by me using my own senses and efforts, not via electronic gadgets, satellite imagery, etc. Binos excepted, lol.

bob...here is a good example

quote:

what is the difference to you between a dead animal and a trophy...is hunting just a

Great debate, I think it is very important for hunters to discuss issues exactly like this. It is great to read other's opinion's. It gives a different perspective on hunting.

The other thing that is great about this type of thread is how it identifies what type of people we are and how different we are.

Now to the meat of the question.
Anything that has to do with animal husbandry, or habituation is not a trophy in my opinion.
Or any type of hunt where somebody has done all the work for you or holds your hand and says shoot that one.

What is a trophy? I can't neccessarily define it, but I know it when it happens. Maybe it's a big bull elk that a hunter spent 23 days hunting for. Maybe it's a whitetail taken at the end of the most physically and emotionally draining day the hunter has ever experienced.
Maybe it's a first antelope taken by nothing but sheer luck. Maybe it's a bear taken over bait that took 3 years to kill. Maybe it's a whitetail that you have the sheds from the previous year. Maybe it's a javelina taken on trip with a bunch of true friends stalked without corn in the senderos. Maybe it's an elk that was shot while it was bugling after spending 29 great days scouting with friends.
Maybe it's the first whitetail taken on the property that your family just purchased.
And just maybe its a photo album full of pictures from unsuccessful hunts.

One thing for certain, in MY opinion a Trophy has absolutely nothing to do with numbers, points, awards, medals or other such nonsense.

*** REPLY TO LD HUNTER --- $BOB$

First of all , -- this ia a thread where the specific question is raised , -- as to what each hunter considers an " HONORABLE KILL , AND/ OR TROPHY " .

My belief is that everyone is ENTITLED , -- to their own opinion , and that's what I'm writing in on this thread .

You're bringing in a lot of stuff ( maybe paranoid stuff ) , out of left field . --- Maybe they represent your own hopes , fears , and things you're pissed about . --- That's O.K. , --- it's all allowable in my book , as long , ( as you say ) , --- you don't break the law , or get kicked off the Forum ( which is your problem , not mine ) .

But I am interested enough , --- to lay some misconceptions you got , out for you .

Looked like you were aiming some of your stuff at my post , immediately above yours .

If so , you're way-off in your conjecture .

Straight out ; since you brought political-orientation into the discussion ( off-topic ) , I'm slightly right of Atilla the Hun . --- I usually vote a straight NRA ticket . I'm also an NRA Benefactor Life Member ( which don't mean anything except that I've sent them a lot of Money , because I believe in what they're doing ) .

Subverting a Solidarity of Hunters by sneeking in Liberal tree-hugging , Bunny F _ _ _ ing radical Leftist line is not only off my charts , -- but insults the intelligence of others posting here . --- Chances are they can think for themselves .

I've hunted my entire life , since about twelve years old . --- I'm a Professional Forester by Education , and after a few courses in Game Management , -- and a lot of years in a Regulatory / Law Enforcement Supervisory Position , --- I steadily migrated to a position ,
( in Hunting Ethics ) , -- where I put the maintaining of plentiful Game herds , -- ABOVE my personal drive , or need to Hunt .

Furthermore , I screwed up my back doing bodacious athletic things ; had surgery at two levels , -- and now I can't work down low very good , -- like field dressing , and quartering Game , etc . --- And I won't ask others to process my game for me .

I've also arrived at a philosophy where my PERSONAL Hunting ethics say ; -- that you never do a Canned Hunt , --- you always Still-Hunt / Stalk your Game , -- you never take shots where you don't believe that you can absolutely / positively kill the animal cleanly ( I'm a dog-crazy fanatic about that , and I've passed up lots of decent shots ) , -- and I don't hunt anywheres near a road .

---- I won't kill an animal unless I need the Meat , -- FINANCIALLY ! , -- ( That means if it's cheaper to buy Beef , I won't hunt -- which is O.K , because with a few exceptions , I like Beef better anyway ) .

In your handle , is the moniker , " LD " , -- it occured to me maybe you're bent because of the content in this thread about LONG DISTANCE shots being inferior , in an Ethics sense , -- to stalking in close . -- I agree fully that stalking in close is a higher ethic in every sense . --- But if you are careful , and truely believe you can anchor an animal with a LD shot , -- then I have no quarrel with it .

But I love and idealize the Life , and the Spirit , and the surroundings of Hunting . I'm the strongest Hunter Advocate you've ever herd of ; -- and I fully realize that well Managed Game Herds are paid for by hunters .

I am bent about different things than you . --- I'm bent about the sorry excuse for human beings who don't have any Hunting Ethics . --- The ones that gut shoot the animals .

I think you're aiming your pet-peeves at the wrong Child .


----------- MMCOUGAR .

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
ive had a 300 wby but out beyond 100 yards in most cases it is not hunting for me.

Why not make it real sporting and try to sneak up on them and stick 'em with a pen knife?

Why do you think shooting an animal at 200, 300 or even 500 yards isn't hunting? If you had rather leave an animal alive than shoot it over 100 yards, why not make it 25 yards or 10 yards?

quote:

Originally posted by DPhillips:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
ive had a 300 wby but out beyond 100 yards in most cases it is not hunting for me.

Why not make it real sporting and try to sneak up on them and stick 'em with a pen knife?

Why do you think shooting an animal at 200, 300 or even 500 yards isn't hunting? If you had rather leave an animal alive than shoot it over 100 yards, why not make it 25 yards or 10 yards?

that is what my mathews ultralight single cam is for...i am good at that too i can do 10 arrows in 5" @50 yards...not great but good enough. i do like the idea of knife and spear hunting...maybe i will work up to slapping a grizz on the butt and sticking him one in the neck...but i doubt it

I don't want to rain anyones parade, but I sure haven't heard many people talk about the real reason to hunt, food. I LIKE to eat venison, elk, duck, dove, etc. If I make a good long shot or a good short shot what is the difference, as long as it's a well placed shot, that kills quickly.
That said, the country I've hunted in the last 45yrs. necessitates the taking of sometimes very long shots, deep shale canyons with very little cover. Most of the scrub and Juniper was burned in fires many years ago. I guess that's why I started reloading, to make sure I had the best ammunition I could make. It's also why I started shooting 800,900,1000 rounds a year. It turned into a great hobby. As long as the animal is a legal buck or elk, etc., I want it in my freezer. The family enjoys it and so do I. If it happens to have larger antlers, so much the better.
Their is no better meat in the world to me than a couple of venison backstraps.
Ethics, I'll leave that discussion to someone with an empty freezer and a wall full of junk.

quote:

Originally posted by AI22-250:
I don't want to rain anyones parade, but I sure haven't heard many people talk about the real reason to hunt, food. As long as the animal is a legal buck or elk, etc., I want it in my freezer.

The "real reason" to hunt, huh? My, aren't you the "real hunter"... You're kidding yourself if you think you're more ethical by hunting for meat and killing any dink that comes along. You're not allowing bucks to grow to maturity... you'd do better to shoot only does with that mentality. See, "ethics" cut both ways.

quote:

Ethics, I'll leave that discussion to someone with an empty freezer and a wall full of junk.

No, I think you showed us your self-righteous ethic quite clearly...

Your right, I would rather have a young buck "dink" or a dry doe in the freezer, they are a lot better chewing than some "old wall hanger".
The State I hunt in sets aside "Trophy areas", they are not canned hunts. They have no place in the State, none at all. The Fish and Game manage all areas to maintain buck to doe ratios to make certain all herds stay in good shape. They encourage the taking of smaller bucks and in some instances they have doe hunts to either maintain ratios or lower the total number of animals that the range can support. In some instances they close areas for as long as needed to build herds. So come off your high horse, It is obvious that you only care about what you want, not what is best for the overall herds and the shooting public. I believe that the State Wildlife Biologists understand the needs a whole lot better than "One Persons so called Ethics".

I don't buy this "noble meat hunter" stuff.

In this day and age, people hunt because they enjoy hunting -- period.

When you consider the cost involved, including time expended, of most do-it-yourself hunting efforts, buying the same meat at the store represents a far more financially viable proposition.

AD