Exactly as I thought... This thread has degenerated to a pissing match that will do nothing but make hunters hate each other and become divided.

United we stand... Divided we FALL!!! If you don't think hunters have enemies that delight in this type of silly argument then you don't read much news.

I still say "don't question the other hunters methods, techniques, or where or how they hunt but whether or not we will survive the attacks from bunny huggers and anti-hunters".

Let the law handle the legal and moral issues. They do a pretty good job of it now.

I just love to hunt and enjoy just about every legal kind of it you can imagine. I will stand and fight to preserve your right to hunt legally. Will you stand and fight to protect mine?

I'm beginning to think that some of us are so hung up trying to justify the way we hunt and worried that other hunters won't hunt in a fashion that we "approve" of that we are missing the big picture.

We are one of the very few countries in the whole world where people can own guns and hunt. Let's don't screw it up!

For all you people that think that this is aimed at you specifically... Well if the shoe fits wear it. If it doesn't then try not to get your bowels in an uproar and start thinking about trying to encourage and protect our fellow hunters and introduce new people to hunting.

$bob$

*** OTHER ANGLES ***
---- Seems to me , there's many SUBCATEGORIES of hobbies , sport , and obsessions , within the business of
" Hunting " .

To some the thing that makes it a " Trophy " is the distance the animal was taken at . --- these guys are the Varmint and Palma Match Shooters of the Hunting world .

Others prize Dangerous Game , for the thrill of putting their life on the line by confronting a big predator , that can kill back , so to speak .

And there are truely , lots of " Types " , ( I won't call them Hunters ) , who don't care about the Meat , the Hunt , or the Country ;
---- Killing is what it's all about for them .

Then there are PURE " Trophy Hunters " , and a record Book Photo , and a Taxidermy on the wall , and , the Status that comes with it , is their only reason for killing critters .

I , PERSONALLY , only admire Skilled Hunters , who hunt because they , on some level ,
" need " the Meat ; and / or , -- those who's livelyhood is raising Stock , -- and they're killing animals that kill their livestock . ---

The more these guys " Need " the nourishment , -- the higher they rate on my ,
( PERSONAL ) , yardstick .

To me , if a Child's really hungry , -- ANYTHING you get on the table , -- is a real , and honorable , Trophy . ( Meat is Meat ) . And in extreme need , I don't even care much about game laws .

I do subscribe , heavily , however , to the notion , that as long as a Hunter , hunts fully legally , -- and eats his Game , or furnishes meat to others in need ; --- He or She , is an O.K. Hunter . ( I didn't say admirable ) .

More I think about it , I find no fault with Long Distance Hunters , -- if they hold a clean-kill priority as no. 1 .

The Dangerous Game types are not admirable ,
( MHO ) , because they , most of all , want the trappings and reputation ( in the eyes of others ), --- of possessing , COURAGE .

But they play with a stacked deck , -- they take unfair advantage of a dumb animal , because they know that 99 times out of 100 there will be no close-quarters Charge , and even then , their Back-up , will help them kill the Animal . --- And they take the Animal's life to aggrandize themselves .

It's a sham , -- and it is here that I use the test-logic ; -- " If you're feeling insecure about your alpha-male status , --- Try a Full-Contact combat Sport , or take D.G on , on their own terms , -- Yup! with a knife or spear ; --- then I'll admit you got some remarkable " Courage " . --- Step in the ring , or the parking lot , -- with somebody your own size , -- that you're a little afraid of .

The pure-trophy types , I don't PERSONALLY , understand , because I keep thinking that the
" trophy " in no way makes anybody a wonderful human being . --- But they often have to be highly skilled hunters , to find those rare outsized critters , so I do admire their skill ,
-- ( and / or , THEIR GUIDE'S ! ) .

On those to whom the " Kill " is everything , and it's O.K. to let the carcass lay ; --- but who , DO NOT WANT TO TAKE ANY RISK , WITH THEIR OWN LIVES ; -- I think we've got a coward , -- and a sick puppy , to boot .


------------------------------- ( JMHO ) --- MMCOUGAR .

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
I don't buy this "noble meat hunter" stuff.

In this day and age, people hunt because they enjoy hunting -- period.

When you consider the cost involved, including time expended, of most do-it-yourself hunting efforts, buying the same meat at the store represents a far more financially viable proposition.

AD

Amen entirely!

AI22-250, the only one on a high horse is you but you obviously don't have the honesty to see that...

I think where the problem lies is not neccessarily with hunters, but with the non hunting public that are not anti-hunters.

I read a study somewhere that the nonhunting public approves of hunting for meat the most and Trophy hunting the least.

So if we are to continue our hunting heritage. Don't you think it is wise as a hunting community to not turn that group of society against us.

If you hunt and don't enjoy the meat, why hunt?
If someone can financially justify spending big money on horns or antlers. It would be cheaper to just buy a big set of premade fake antlers or off of ebay. I can just as easily use that same argument to justify spending the money on meat I procure. Has any one priced venison lately? I personally prefer venison to beef.

Hunting first and foremost is a management tool, then recreation. The benefits to wildlife are well documented, the benefits to local economies are well documented. On a personal level, antler size and yes, meat are benefits besides recreation.

If someone excels at shooting long distances, great. Just not my cup of tea. If someone wants to road hunt and that's what THEY enjoy, more power to them. If someone only hunts with a bow, great. If someone wants to limit their shots to < 100 yards so be it.

But we have have to realize the implications of our actions to the non-hunting public.

I personally have an issue with animal husbandry. Growing a wild critter to shoot and the bigger the antlers the better. So some triggerman can pound their chest saying they shot a deer or elk that scored blah, blah, blah.

The problem always lies in the fact that when somebody wants to impose their ethics on someone else.

I personally hunt using many different methods, thats what I enjoy. I am most adamant about portraying a positive image to the non-hunting public. Sharing venison with non-hunting neighbors and friends.

I've said this before, but I guess it's appropriate here again: If I want meat, give me a good Ruth Chris steak anytime. To be honest, I give most of my venison away, either to friends or to charity. I'm sorry but in today's day and age here in the USA, "subsistence hunting' just doesn't ring true. If you like venison, hey that's great, but please don't disparage those of us who enjoy hunting for the love of the sport and the outdoors and for the trophies on the wall. We all have conservation in mind and this kind of thinking only serves to drive a wedge between us that does nothing but make PETA smile. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by AI22-250:
... So come off your high horse, It is obvious that you only care about what you want,..

Hey AI22-250, Nice shot at one of ad's merry band of stooges. You figured bradly right out.

And I see the poorly-educated, loud-mouth, blow-hard, braggart (ad) followed right behind "attempting" to trash you too.

They do get upset when you do not agree with whatever loonacy they come along with.
---

quote:

Originally posted by LDHunter:
Exactly as I thought... This thread has degenerated...

Hey LD, You hit it 10X!

Hot Core, you're nothing but a jealous, sniveling headcase and all-around prick, and everyone sees you in that light, rest assured....

AD

LD

"I still say "don't question the other hunters methods, techniques, or where or how they hunt but whether or not we will survive the attacks from bunny huggers and anti-hunters".

I can't think of too many statements that could be more wrong than this one.

The greatest threat to hunting comes not from vehement anti-hunters, who are probably a much smaller minority than we are, but from the vast majority of people who don't hunt and are ambivalent about it.

They are the ones who's opinion of hunting is in play. Like it or not, they are the ones who will be swayed by behavior they deem unethical, whether or not it's legal. And they are the ones who are going to settle any legislative debates about hunting, not us and not the anti-hunters.

It's healthy and productive to debate these issues among ourselves, as long as we do it respectfully. Out ethics, and really the ethics of the worst of us, is what we will be collectively judged by. If you want to call me a "girlie-man" because I find some of the things that pass for hunting nowadays repugnant, go right ahead. But don't kid yourself. You're helping the anti-hunters a lot more than you're helping us.

RXM

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:

I read a study somewhere that the nonhunting public approves of hunting for meat the most and Trophy hunting the least.

So if we are to continue our hunting heritage. Don't you think it is wise as a hunting community to not turn that group of society against us.

ABSOLUTELY NOT! THE DAY I ALLOW SOMEONE ELSE TO DICTATE MY HUNTING PREFERENCES WILL BE THE DAY I STOP HUNTING.

I see absolutely no reason to tweek my hunting practices so it suits a nonhunter. Whether they are Peta or not.

I don't have to explain to anyone why I hunt, what I do with the meat, the head, or any other part of that animal. It's none of their business.

Just today, I asked permission of an old lady to hunt her property because it joins land where I do hunt. She denied me access, stating that: "I try to keep them alive. I have nothing against hunting so long as you eat the meat, but I do not allow it on my property."

So, case in point. This lady's paradigm on hunting mirrors those who responded to the study. So what. She nor anyone else can tell me, advise me, to EAT the meat since I killed it. Even though I do, or I donate it.

I respectfully but STRONGLY disagree that hunters must begin catering to nonhunters wishes just to "keep them on our side."

I don't tell my nonhunting neighbors to drive their fancy cars that they spend tons of money on but let sit in the garage, just to look at. Seems to me that would be a similar case since those autos represent nothing more than a "trophy" to look at.

Oh, I forgot another thing. ON this whole hunting is truly and only for meat issue. I make no bones about it. I TROPHY hunt first. And I won't hesitate to blow an entire shoulder right off the animal if that is what the bullet happens to do. I'm more worried about messing up the cape than a pound of shoulder meat. Sue me. Call me unethical. It's my hunt, and that is me.

I like and respect most everyone here and like reading the threads and I honeslty have no problem if someone has a Problem with me and my hunting practices. I say, so be it. But anyone who still thinks that the REAL reason to hunt is for meat only (not saying anyone in particular), then allow me to turn on the light. I don't. Trash me all you want, but when I buy a tag for a buck no matter where, I'm not in it for a fork horn. I want a monster. And I'd have to say, that I do not recall meeting anyone in my hunting career that is "in it for the meat only." Everyone I know, hunt with, etc. always dreams of "the big one."

I know there are meat hunters. I surely enjoy the meat too, and I enjoy giving to to a bunch of my health nut friends too. That's why I'll take a Doe any chance I can where numbers are conducive for it.

Here's what I find so bizzare. Why do "meat hunters" travel from state to state, buying all kinds of tags, when they can legally take 5 or more deer in their homestate? I'm sure this has happened.

Well, Doc, do you take the head and the cape and leave the rest for the vultures, or do you wait for an animal of a specific quality (what you would judge as a trophy) and use it all or at least give the meat for someone who'll eat it?

In my mind, there are hunters who are interested primarilyin a trophy and those who are interested in only the trophy and nothing else.

I don't have any problem with a hunter who has a certain standard that they want to acheive and who's willing to toss the unused tag in a drawer at the end of the season if they don't see it. I do have problems with people who would shoot a farm-raised animal in a pen just to collect the horns.

RXM

*** SYNERGY ***

I don't believe that a discussion , like this one is divisive , in any sense ; -- nor do I believe that it polarizes Hunters against one another .

If any individual , has a closed mind , and inflexible positions , -- to the point that reason goes out the window ; -- then he will benefit fron no discussion , and he will only bring impasse into the discussion , --- THAT'S what's destructive .

When I put forth , my yardstick of values ( above ) , and others give strong counterpoint ; -- if the counterpoint is reasonable , and has an aspect of truth to it , -- then perhaps I modify my preconceived position , and arrive at a more comprehensive one . --- I think that process is good stuff .

--- Sometimes I actually learn something , and other times I become more convinced that I was right . -- And the process of DEFENDING my position , makes the truth of it clearer and more defined in my mind . --- It's a win - win - situation .

Further , seems to me this thread is getting better , as it gets longer .

I agree with RX MOORE about 90 % , in his last few posts . --- But I also see truth in DOC'S position that no one should try to impose their idea of what's acceptable ( as to Hunting Ethics ) on anyone else , or any other group . --- And I , ( just because of this discussion ) see truth to those who said ; -- that if you enjoy the Sport of Hunting , and you don't break the Wildlife Laws , nobody should try to put other Hunters on a guilt trip , or put their style down as bad or evil .

When I set down my value yardstick , -- ( above ) , I was prioritizing according to my true beliefs as to which approaches to hunting were the most noble and honerable , -- and which were less admirable . --- I hope I stressed enough that these were my PERSONAL values . I took the various APPROACHES , to Hunting and arranged them from Most Admirable , -- to Least Admirable , --- and maybe that came across as too demeaning to certain types of Hunters .

So I want to reinforce , that I don't have any basic and SERIOUS issue with any hunter that stays within the existing Game Laws . --- The rest is druthers , and personal values .

-- Which type of Hunting I admire most , and which I dislike strongly , -- according to MY values , is input to this thread , for your consideration , -- in a hopefully constructive spirit .


------------------------------- MMCOUGAR .

Hey Doc, Nice couple of posts.

I like every part of Hunting and Shooting.

The preparation prior to Hunting or Shooting just make sme happy. Whether it is cleaning Cases or cleaning Trails, it is all leading toward the Hunt. The Range Time, is time well spent, building confidence in the Final Loads and winning BBQ Suppers.

Of course just being in the woods and swamps is the best health treatment I'd ever had. Sneaking in amongst the critters with them having no idea at all someone is watching them move about their normal routines is always a challenge and not always successful.

Patterning the movements to the point you can put a Beginner on a nice Deer or a buddy on a HUGE Trophy brings me great pleasure. And I enjoy taking the Game for my own use.

Even the Drag out, the Gutting and Processing are fine activities, especially when shared with good people and good hunters.

Enjoying the meat and looking at the Trophies just keep the Hunts fresh in my mind. I do enjoy all of it.

quote:

Originally posted by rxmoore:
Well, Doc, do you take the head and the cape and leave the rest for the vultures, or do you wait for an animal of a specific quality (what you would judge as a trophy) and use it all or at least give the meat for someone who'll eat it?


RXM

I thought I made this crystal clear in my posts. The meat is ALWAYS utilized. I would never leave a carcass for scavengers, that is unthinkable. BUT, I think I would if it had multiple lesions or tumors. This is rare, but I think that would be a case where I'd leave it, or if there was evidence of something like liver flukes. Thus far, I've passed on about 12 bucks this year. The largest about a 135 class 9 point. I've seen about double that, but most are small basket racked deer.

I have a standard this year. I'd like a quality 150 class animal or larger. I'll toss the tag if I do not get a shot. However, if a handsome 140+ strolls by, I may show weakness and attempt a shot.

i like hunters who keep elevating and bettering themselves. the ones who love the pure sport of hunting who want to get closer or outwitt the animals or have good tracking skills. the best way to put it is they honor the animal by fair chase. no struggle no prize. i do agree there is a more and less ideal or respectable ways of hunting...eg shooting out of a truck vs bowhunting with primitive tools ect. and it is not my place to tell people what to do within the law but what are the ethics you self impose? are you striving to be the ideal(whatever you have in your head)hunter...i know this will vary from hunter to hunter. what is your idea of the ideal hunter? the one you would want to be there at your side or at the campfire with sharing the story of how you overcame the obsticles and outwitted an animal and therefore have your trophy and not a dead animal. shooting fish in a barrel is not fishing if you know what i mean. to use an analogy

Okay, guys: my two cents...
I am one of those guys that will spend a few dollars to put meat in the freezer every year, and that includes culling excess deer and pigs (yes, does too, thank you...) in some of the state parks in Texas. I have a nice 5X5 bull elk that was shot in 1997, and that is probably the best trophy I will ever take. It was killed on public land in Idaho, fwiw...

I hunt because I love to eat venison and wild pork sausage, and because it gets me outside. Yes, I would love to kill a nice 150-class whitetail, or a 160-170-class mule deer, but you can't eat horns. I pride myself on quick, clean kills, and those of you who have read my other posts know that, by what I consider to be inadequate calibers for specific use. But that is another subject...

I won't ever hunt behind a high fence, and I will never buy a canned hunt. I do, and have, hunted over feeders, however, because if we didn't kill the deer in Texas every year that we do, they would soon become a hazard on the roads. If you don't belive that, take a drive through the hill country some November and look at the deer blood, and carcasses scattered all over the roads and roadsides.

Maybe one day I will get a chance at a really big deer, but until that day comes, I am satisfied with doing what I do. To each, his own, I guess...

if there are deer all over the place it makes sense to do the feeders ect to thin out the population i agree but there is a distinction between a cull or thinning out the flock and hunting...i would say that if deer are overpopulated then the opportunities go up and you can risk getting closer. more up close shots would be plentiful

So stick, which do you consider more ethical, sitting in a treestand or blind and shooting an animal that happens by at 25 or 50 yards or an animal you have stalked or tracked across a wide open wilderness then taken at 200 or 300 yards when there is no cover to get closer? The same? One more than the other?

quote:

Originally posted by LDHunter:
I think that if I were an anti-hunter activist I'd start and fuel debates like this all over the forum boards to get hunters at each other's throats and to divide them so they would be easier to defeat.

Ethics? Bull Crap! Let the law decide that.

If a particular type of legal hunting makes you squeamish then don't do it.

What a bunch of girlie men!

Get away from the computers and go out and hunt and quit worrying about the ethics of other hunters that use legal hunting methods.

This new "kinder gentler" world makes me want to puke. I must be spawned from big city hunters that want to bring thir liberal attitudes to the woods.

"My hunting methods and ethics are better than yours" is a topic better left to college professors or CNN articles. Not traditional hunters.

If you broght that attitude into any of the deer camps I've ever been in you'd be laughed out of the woods.

GET A LIFE!!! Go hunting and leave this liberal crap to the bunny huggers.

$bob$

I found a lot of very interesting post on this thread and appreciating other hunter's views and then I got your's LD. After reading your post all I could think of was Amen Brother. Tell it like it is. What the heck is that dancing thing that you have on your post?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
today with canned hunts and long range "hunting" i say that losely...what is the difference to you between a dead animal and a trophy...is hunting just a hike in the mountains and shoot an animal if you see one by chance if you are lucky at 300 yards with a tag in your pocket? or shooting a fenced in animal that is only half wild? what type of hunting that will end in an honerable kill will be a trophy to you? Can you defend yourself against the tree huggers when you kill an animal at sniper distances? this is a hunting ethics debate...try not to flame or rant but give your ideas and philosophy and we can chose to disagree but be open to be convinced.

Boom,
You asked so here are my views which are not right or wrong buy my views. Here in America we have the right to be individuals and think our own thoughts for the time being anyway.
I think if you are highly skilled at long range shooting and you like long range shooting of game then that is what you should do. In some states that is all there is anyway. In the Southeast the only long range shot is on a huge bean field or power line on gas line right of way. I have done two of those long shots but most all of mine are under 120 yds since I prefer hunting with a climbing stand. I don't care for the idea of shooting a deer or any other big game in a fenced in area for a trophy. If I guy needs a trophy for his office then do what you got to do. It is not for me. If I did not have hunting skills and I had a lot of money then my view may be different. I am very skillful at hunting so my preference is to do it in the wild. I read several post bashing trophy shooters and others bashing meat hunters. Is there a difference?
I have a very nice trophy whitetail on the wall so I like trophies as much as any other guy. A couple weeks ago I was invited to hunt with some guys on a lease in Ga. My Mother practical ordered me to bring her some deer meat. My Indonesian wife loves shooting but would kill an animal but oredered me to bring home some meat. Off I go and I get a very quick look at the terrain and got a doe 2 hours after putting up my climber. Did some more scouting and attached my stand to a tree and so it would be ready the next morning. After an hour I had a 7 point. Moved to another area and the next morning I got a doe. Am I a trophy hunter or a meat hunter? What is the difference? I have not hunted in 3 years but I had a great time with my best friend and satisfied my family. My best friend got a doe for his freezer and the other 3 got nothing. I have antler tags and non antler tags. Both need to be used for game management. Am I right or wrong? Neither in my opinion. That is what I do. If a 12 point walks by he goes on the wall and in the freezer. If a doe comes along she goes in the freezer.

You got my ideas and philosophy. Who is next?

Good Post - Hot Core

I've got to agree on most every point but one or two.
First I don't have any swamps, most of the hunts are either high desert or high mountain (6000' to 10,500') or so.
Second, I really can't say I enjoy the drag out any more, I've got all the "old peoples" complaints and more than some. I like your descriptions though.
In this state as I would assume in most states it's a felony to waste game in any form.
Quote from proclamation ---
B. Waste of Wildlife
23-20-8
A person may not waste or permit to be wasted or spoiled any protected wildlife or any part of them.

In this state they regularly prosecute anyone who allow meat to spoil, either in the field or from being thrown away. I've seen the Fish and Game watch as an animal is cleaned and hauled out to make certain it's done in a timely manner, even large Elk, with one hunter, they will make him come back hour after hour to bone out the carcus and if it spooils they will haul him in.
I've read Newspaper accounts of Agents going thru "Ethical Hunters" garbage to get the so called "Goods" on these wasters. Very stiff sentences. Lose all hunting priveledges for life, guns, trucks, etc. confiscated, stiff fines and sometimes jail sentences.
It's looked on as bad, or worse than poaching.

Say what you want about Ethics, we have all decieded that our elected officials have made most of the ethical decisions for us. To the time of year you hunt, to the cal. you hunt with, to the game you can shoot, etc. etc. etc.. The only thing we can do is choose to obey or not. And that's all I have to say about that.

quote:

Originally posted by AI22-250:
...I don't have any swamps, most of the hunts are either high desert or high mountain (6000' to 10,500') or so.
Second, I really can't say I enjoy the drag out any more, I've got all the "old peoples" complaints and more than some. ...

Hey AI22-250, We have some small mountains in the Carolinas, but you guys would think of them as "hills".

I've done a bit of hunting in them, but that was a long time ago. I'd imagine the biscuits & gravy consumed since then would get me huffing and puffing moving around there.

I was going to Knoxville one year and as I passed through the Smokies, the Deer Season was open. Lots of trucks parked along the road close to each draw. Due to the Hunter Orange, I saw a couple of guys coming out around noon from a good ways off.

Just as I was getting close to them, one guy must have hung a root and I could see his rifle coming through the air. Then he appeared to be doing a Jack Knife "dive". By the time I got on up to them, his buddies were picking him up and his face had blood all over it. The rifle had stuck in the ground barrel first.

I stopped to see if they needed help, but they were all laughing, including the "diver".

So, I can see where the mountains you all have could be quite a challenge for old legs and lungs. I saw in another post you made about that darned Diabetes - bad stuff. Good to see you are not letting it keep you from going.

A couple of my buddies have the 4-wheelers and just couldn't hunt without them. One lives in Raleigh and has some kind of unique Muscular Dystrophy that attacked his heart and it runs through his family. The fine Dr.s at Duke decided to try a Heart replacement(it had never been done on folks with this condition) and he had a "slightly used" one in 3 weeks.

He is doing great, but uses a 4-wheeler to get into the hunting areas and to "drag" his Deer out. And he has a great bunch of guys in his Hunt Club that all come to help him when they hear a shot.

I guess some folks would frown on him using the 4-wheeler. I see it as a great device which allows him to still be able to hunt.

Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills.

*** TROPHY ***

Then there's another dimension to the concept
--- " Trophy " .

That's how hard it is to track , hunt , and stalk the Animal .

If you've got to use the word " trophy " , -- I consider a free-range , Mt. Goat , that a Hunter has to backpack miles to find , and scale Country above , say , 11,000 ft. , to approach , in areas you can't even get Stock into ; --- a much more important
" Trophy " , -- than a Doe shot out the back window of your Cabin .
( Exagerating to make the point ) .

I think it's good to be a Hunter , AND , a conservationist . ( No that ain't the same as a Tree Hugger , Sports Fans ) .

A Conservationist wants to Manage Wilderness , and Hunting Range , in such a way that the Forests , Rangelands , and Hunting Fields , are improved . -- " Improved " , means that the hands of time are turned back a little to restore things closer to the way they were when Game was Plentiful , -- and the Forests were
" First Growth " , and vast game herds occupied the Grasslands .

We'll never get there in the pure sense , now , -- but Managing in that direction, is a direction I believe all True Hunters , would like to see .

I'd like to see more Wilderness areas where even Stock wasn't allowed . -- No Snowmobiles , no 4X4's , -- No Vehicles , at all except into major Trailheads !

BUT , I'd like to see Hunters permitted in to hunt these areas , -- backpack only .

Bring a nice rack out of country like that , -- and you've got a " Trophy " , -- all right ; --- I'll go along with that definition .

---------- MMCOUGAR .

The other day I picked off a whitetail doe at about 260 yards running at top speed.

The old '06 hit it hard and it tumbled to a stop instantly.

Yes...several of the folks I was hunting with witnessed it.....thing is this has happened many times in my life and every one is a trophy.

I still field dress and bone them out and make a lot of venison soups....but the deer are trophies none the same.

I just got an email saying my Kudu is done....that too is a trophy...likely the only one I'll ever get....it's going to hang on the wall for the rest of my life.

Trophys have little to do with size...they're more important than that.

vapodog,
You are right about the size not being the important part. To me the most important part is the experience and the memory that you will always cherish.
One of these day I would like to do an African hunt myself.
Congratulations on achieving one of your dreams.

Appreciation and Respect

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:

quote:

Originally posted by rxmoore:
Well, Doc, do you take the head and the cape and leave the rest for the vultures, or do you wait for an animal of a specific quality (what you would judge as a trophy) and use it all or at least give the meat for someone who'll eat it?


RXM

I thought I made this crystal clear in my posts. The meat is ALWAYS utilized. I would never leave a carcass for scavengers, that is unthinkable. BUT, I think I would if it had multiple lesions or tumors. This is rare, but I think that would be a case where I'd leave it, or if there was evidence of something like liver flukes. Thus far, I've passed on about 12 bucks this year. The largest about a 135 class 9 point. I've seen about double that, but most are small basket racked deer.

I have a standard this year. I'd like a quality 150 class animal or larger. I'll toss the tag if I do not get a shot. However, if a handsome 140+ strolls by, I may show weakness and attempt a shot.

Sorry, Doc, I knew that. I was juse trying to contrast the pure trophy hunter from hunters who use the meat. I guess I did a pretty poor job of getting where I wanted to go with it.

I don't have a single problem with how you go about your business. It's people who obsess over a "trophy" and will do almost anything to get it that get under my skin a little bit. Especially those who will bend or even break laws to the what they want.

As for not judging the methods of other hunters, which is a point several posters have raised, I think we need to be really careful with that. There are "legal" hunting methods that I consider dangerous to the future of our sport with canned hunts being a case in point. If we don't police our own ranks, I can assure you that others will. If you don't believe me, just try justifying a canned hunt to a non-hunter.

Rest assured that, in the eyes of the non-hunting public, we'll be judged by the worst actors among us.

*** LIKE IT OR NOT ***

It may not be what you want to hear , -- it may not be the way you'd ( as a Hunter ) , like things to be ; --- but it's the time of day , -- the reality .

This is still a Democracy . --- Public opinion is comprised of a majority that are NOT Hunters . We are a small Minority in this Country .

If we don't conduct ourselves according to HUNTING ETHICS , -- that the majority can see justification and reason in , -- the majority will curtail our present hunting freedoms , when they vote .

Look at the NRA , -- they have a long track record of SUCCESS .

We hunters as a group , must do the same , -- we need to inform the public of our reasonable truths , we need to inform them of the Noble and True things about hunting . --- If we don't , we will see the slow erosion of our Hunting Rights under the law .

We can't be too Ethical , about any aspect of hunting ; -- especially the suffering , humane treatment , and of other Animals .

The Anti-Gunners and Anti - hunters are working tirelessly , --- we have to Govern ourselves and out " Hunting Ethics " accordingly , or we're going to loose through inactivity .

RX MOORE , --- IS RIGHT ON .

------------------ MMCOUGAR .

*** CONTINUED ***

Sorry , had to break off the ( above ) post .

So to summarize , perhaps the biggest
" Trophy " a Hunter , or Hunters as a group , can achieve , is the trophy of positive popular opinion .

I would submit , that almost all Non-Hunters ,
( i.e. , the Hunting-Ethics Majority ) ; --- think hunting , when you need meat for your family , -- is perfectly justifiable , and Ethical , -- perhaps even Admirable .

And I'll bet when they see half domesticated wildlife penned into a " Game-Farm " , or wild Animals fed hay during cold winters , -- ( so that truck-hunters can shoot the poor frozen animals off the hood of their Pickups ) ; --- I'll bet they say ,
" That's ugly , there's something wrong with those guys , -- they're the type that just want to kill sumpthin' " .

We can't afford the bad , publicity .

Some have said , -- " the important thing to me is THE KILL " . . . . The silent majority is going to tag that onto all Hunters .

-- We , as hunters , should stone that sucker out of the village , ourselves , because he and his kind could truely cause long-run legislation against hunting .

I don't expect all hunters to become pure Subsistence Hunters or else hang up their rifles . That's as unrealistic as expecting the voting public to embrace a hunter who
" just likes to kill , -- for Sport and Giggles " .

But I do , personally , think that Subsistence Hunters are the most authentic and Honerable Hunters of all .

When a Hunter takes the position , " nobody is going to dictate MY hunting style or ethics to me ! " , -- I would answer , " yes , but what you CHOOSE , or SUPPORT , or TEACH , might well cause further legislative restrictions , that will prohibit , by law , the style you wish to practice , --- and might imperil all of our hunting freedoms .

I believe that the biggest " Trophy " of all is to achieve Hunter Ethics and Hunter Behavior , -- that will lead to more populus Game Herds in the future , and assure permanent Hunter's rights .

To bring about THAT Trophy , we all are charged with the responsibility to comport ourselves in a way that ;
" AVOIDS , EVEN THE APPEARANCE " of an individual who defines the " killing " of dumb animals , as Sport .

These , not too well , individuals , are the gravest ENEMIES , of all legitimate Hunting .

They should save us all a lot of bad rap , -- and just go get a Job on the kill floor of the local Meat Plant .


------------------ MMCOUGAR .

If it is completly legal and you are doing everything in your power to kill the animal humanely, I see no problem in any type of hunting. If you don't like high fence dont go. Everyones opinion of a trophy is different. If its shot legally who cares.