I'm not saying it would be great as I don't know and don't hunt DG but, It seems a 50cal 385grn Nosler Partition Gold launched at 2000fps would stop darn near anything walking.

You can get sabot loads with 385 PGs or 1oz(437.5 grns)Barne X etc and in todays modern rifled barreled shotguns 2" groups at 100 yards are pretty common.

I think I personally would feel pretty good about having my Semi Auto 12 ga loaded with 5 3" Mag Sabot loads of 385 PGs @ 2000 fps If I were in the company of DG.

Just wondering....


Reloader

Those loads on thin-skinned DG would likely be no problem, although the semi-auto part might pose difficulties in importation.
385 gr at 2000fps only gives 3419 ft.lbs of energy. Not enough to be legal for buffalo in some countries, and penetration on thick skinned DG would be very questionable. A solid bullet of 450-500 gr going 2150 or more will more likely get the penetration on the big stuff, and sometimes even that's not enough.

I have seen slugs and sabots fail on light frame animals..If I had to use a shotgun then it would be full of double 0 or number 1 buck and at point blank range..I am not a shotgun fan for DG, and prefer to shoot birds with them.

I live where we are required to shoot deer with slugs. I have chronographed a buch of them, and I would definately NOT believe claimed velocities. DG? I think not

DGK

Less than five years ago a FWS employee stopped a charging brownie near Dillingham with a 12ga slug gun.

FWS still issues shotguns w/ slugs to its field employees.

I thought it would be neato to take a moose around here with my 10ga and slugs, but I guess there are none available?

you are barking up the wrong forum these guys will never give an inch on this subject even if you can give proof you will never convince them.

call clint at stars and stripes ammo he has a dgr slug that I know works.

quote:

I thought it would be neato to take a moose around here with my 10ga and slugs, but I guess there are none available?

Federal's 10ga slug is a 3 1/2" Hollow Point 766 grns. And yah it smarts a bit. OUCH

Reloader,

The sectional density of the slug is:

SD = [ 385 gr / (7000 gr/lb) ] / [ 0.500 in ]2 = 0.220 lb/in2

I think the slug SD is too low to get to the vitals consistently against heavy muscle. No1 Buck might be better to deter the animal.

Instead of focusing only on the energy of the slug lets look at the fact it is a SHOTGUN. By that I mean it is designed to come up to the shoulder and be pointing right about where you want to be shooting. Then there is the fire power factor. A pump or semiauto will put more rounds into whats in front of you in less time than a big powerful bolt action.

Now it depends on if you are going out to hunt DG or you are wanting protection from DG in an unwanted close encounter. If I were going grizzly hunting I'd rather have a big rifle I could shoot well (or better than "well"). If I was salmon fishing on a river in Grizzly country I'd rather have a short barreled shotgun full of sluggs over my shoulder.

Robin in Rocky

Robin in Rocky,

Just so we are on the same page, sectional density is an indicator of a projectile's ability to penetrate. It is not an energy computation.

Never count on several small blows to do the job of one large blow. If I was salmon fishing on a river in grizzly country I would want a light weight short barreled big bore rifle.

i wouldnt go looking for DG with anyshotgun.
however if i were to find my self at home plate w/ a brownie on first and all i had were a 12 ga w/ slugs i feel 95% confident id walk away from it.

Scott King and Crusher,
I know an Indain woman that stopped a brown bear with a .22 L.R. so does that make the 22 a bear gun?

I have seen the shotgun slug fail to many times to ever feel comfortable with one, My dearest friend George Hoffman swore by a 12 ga. with buckshot on Lions and Leopards, but George would let them almost take a bite of him before he shot them. I never wanted one that close.

George also didn't much like slugs, preferring buck shot hands down...

It wouldn't be my first choice by any means I would much rather have my 416.

But given the best slugs in a good accurate shotgun one could kill about anything. If one was handed a shotgun and that all that one had will I would make it work.

But then if one is shooting a single projectile a rifle will do anything a shot gun will and do it better.

Ray,

I'm sure you're right, and there have been many documented shotgun slug failures.

I have never hunted with a slug gun, but as I understand it many deer are successfully hunted every year with slug guns. There must be something to 12ga chunk of lead weighing 475g going 1400 fps, (according to my old Lyman shotshell reloading book).

Again, having no experience with shotgun slugs, I thought I'd get a kick out of hunting moose around my place with my 10ga and slugs. My thought was to wait for the right circumstances and paste some bull behind the shoulder. While out looking for a moose, I don't think I'd hesitate to take a brown bear with the 766g slugs mentioned by dbltap under the right circumstances.

Now, having said all that, mostly because I like it more, when out fishing this summer I brought along my .375 H&H.

I think too many of you are referring to common slugs of years past. Today's High Powered sabot rounds are night and day compared to low velocity Foster type slugs and smooth bores of years past. Modern sabot slugs give ballistics like that of a 50 Alaskan.

Today we have high velocity sabot slugs that will shoot a 50cal 385 grn well constructed bullet at 2,000fps from a fully rifled barrel with just as good if not better accuracy than many big bore rifles.

I personally feel I'd be much safer with 5 sabots in a good quality rifled bbl auto shotgun if a bear were charging than any type of big bore bolt rifle.

Think of all the dangerous game Jim Shockey has taken with a Muzzle Loader, todays slug guns are much more powerful than a MLer with standard blackpowder/pyro loads.

Reloader

ray I machine slugs from a material thad will absolutely punch a hole in anything living at 2000 fps they work . the foster type and bs that the factory loads will probably work also but I dont need to know that cause I dont use em. some of the revired british express double rifles dont shoot as hard fast or accurate as my smothbore but hey they do have class.

One word: why?

If you have nothing else, then you use what you've got. But if you are picking a fight, then you stack the deck in your favor.

What would you **choose** a shotgun when you could choose a real stopping rifle?

AP,

"Why?" is right. As I mentioned before, when out and about this summer I carried my .375.

If I was to hunt with a slug gun around here, I think it could be assumed that I wasn't very serious about taking game. That's probably why I haven't done it yet.

quote:

One word: why?

Not saying I would but, now that you ask that question "why?"

Simple, I bet I can place 3 lethal blows to a target with my semi auto slug gun before you could get the bolt shut on your follow-up round(What if you missed on that first shot? ). Seems like a pretty good reason to me.

I guess you fellas feel the 45-70 is a wimpy cartridge as well.

Reloader

Only if it was set up for the 12ga shell that RG and EH put together

Depends on what we are callin dangerous. I have used a Remington 870 in 20 gauge to kill several wounded feral hogs at night usin Brenneke 23/4 inch slugs. Lots of penetration and a good hole in and out.

Good Point Rick, Maybe we should change the topic from the broad term "Dangerous Game" to a specific animal such as Coastal Grizzly.

Reloader

Yes, as to what we label "dangerous game", in NA we could probably agree on polar and grizzly bear. The really tough-bodied DG is African.
Semi-auto would not be my first choice in the Polar regions, and would be impossible to get into most African countries.
The published Hornady ballistics for their SST 12 ga. 300gr show 100yd @ 1641fps/1793ftlb, and 200yds @ 1341fps/1198. This compares to a 458 WinMag 450gr typical load 100yd @2131fps/4550ftlb and 200yd @ 1971fps/3996ftlb. The 458 has over 3 times the energy of the SST at 200yd.The sectional density on the 458 will also be much higher than a 12ga slug.

If for self-protection, you should have no worries with the 12ga and your slugs at close range on grizzly, and it quite likely is the absolute best choice. If you're spending a small fortune on a DG HUNT, then you would likely want something that can reach out to 100 or 200 yds with authority IF NEED BE.

quote:

Originally posted by CRUSHER:
you are barking up the wrong forum these guys will never give an inch on this subject even if you can give proof you will never convince them.

call clint at stars and stripes ammo he has a dgr slug that I know works.

I still mean this not trying to fight no point in it

Scott,
I have used the Federal 10 guage slug for over 20 years on whitetail as we are shotgun/slug only in Ohio. The 10 guage federal is a Foster type.
you get 2" expansion on whitetail and complete penetration from the side. Front to rear, you will not get complete penetration and the slug almost always fragments. I have killed 30+ deer with this out of a Remington SP-10 with 20" bbl and rifle sights. I would Not try it on moose-- it would not put one down in my opinion.

Thanks buckeye, it's probably something that I may well have never bothered with.

If I did I'd want a slug barrel for my 10ga Gold, and I'm not under the impression they make one.

If I did go hunting with the 10ga, I probably be looking for the 50yd or less shot, perfect broadside, you know, the perfect shot.

If I do get to hunt this fall it'll be with a rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
Robin in Rocky,
Never count on several small blows to do the job of one large blow. If I was salmon fishing on a river in grizzly country I would want a light weight short barreled big bore rifle.

Exactly! I would far rather have a large bore short barreled rifle, when fishing in streams where Brown bear are fishing as well! In fact that is exactly what I carry on a sling, while fishing in Alaska, a 16 1/4" barreled 1894 Marlin 45-70, stoaked full of handloads that are hot in a Ruger No1, with 400 gr hard cast bullets! This rifle was made for this exact purpose, years before any of the GUIDE GUNS showed up on the dock!I don't want that rifle for Cape Buffalo, but for bear it is OK!

Buck shot are not even good for whitetail deer,past 30 yds. TPW says they find more dead deer wounded, and lost from Buck shot than any other thing!

I have shot deer and pig with a slug. I was not impressed.

I wouldmuch rather have a 9,3x62 or x74, or a 375 H&H any day.

In Alaksa for bear protection a 45/70 Marlin Guide Gun would be hard to beat, or for me a 375 H&H Blaser Tracker.

George Hoffman did kill a cape buff with a 12ga slug however.

This is why they make a lot of guns!!!!

From sharp sticks to bows to .22’s (that was the world record was it not Ray?) you can kill bear a lot of different ways. You can kill most things a lot of different ways. I think that for sport you should try to kill (or harvest or reap or put to sleep) the animal as quickly and humanly as possible. In an eat or get eaten situation then use what you feel best betting your sack on.


I shoot a 9.3x62 and a 6.55 Swede because I am a recoil wimp. Don't like it and don't trust the Doc that says it won't affect my laser eye surgery. A 10ga for geese while it works takes a lot of the fun out of it for me. Yah I shoot a 20ga Benelli, too. I have a .44 for bears so I can fight my way to my rifle if need be. Best plan in the world? Who knows but it’s mine. I also makes sure I take my old fat friends fishing if there are going to be bear around .