Spammy does require that the elk be broadside for this shot! Wonder what bullets he uses?

www.huntchat.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=168455&t=4201#post168455

Don,

Two days ago one of my local yahoos is telling the story of his "Seven hundred and fifty yard elk shot". That he swears is the true distance as he has a Leica rangefinder. I just can't TAKE these BS stories!! I'm just about ready to call this guy out and give him the opportunity to take three shots at a mere 500 yds, ON PAPER, and see if he can hit a 24" square.

Sorry......haven't had my coffee yet.

FN in MT

Don 29, I have to smile as I just can't see anybody taking a 500 yard shot offhand period. Most hunters today can't hold still enough for a 200 yard shot offhand, especially if one has just climbed up the side of a bench huffing and puffing as in being a Flatlander. I can hit 250 yard targets offhand, but that is not the same as being in the mountains and you know that right?

The other thing I can't understand is that shooting a mature bull elk is not the same as shooting a Rag Horn or Cow. I want to be under 400 yards for that kind of shot and things must be to my liking before I pull that trigger. Meaning that I will have a good rest for my rifle an solid view of the animal, along with proper presentation.

I have personnally seen shooter's and hunter' alike try and hit a GONG placed at 400 yards off handed, and perhaps one out of 20 shooter's gets lucky and strikes the Gong after firing a dozen round or so. That Gong by the way is 14x14 inches.

[ 12-06-2002, 20:04: Message edited by: Chigger ]

Frank when you call them out maybe you should offer them three shots at you at 500. Might be a grave matter pun intended. Sometimes these people do have the skill and yes sometimes it's luck but you really don't have a clue because you don't know them.

A friend of mine and myself used to win alot of money at the old Virginia City Buffler Runners shoot. We practiced off hand quite a bit, and buddy Bob was an exhibition shooter. We were pretty much unbeatable at the 600 yd. range shooting our heavy business rifles. There's also a hell of a lot of luck involved with the wind at this range.
I've taken some of these "700 yard wonders" to marked ranges and asked them to repeat thier shots. Usually after looking at the actual measured ranges, they would usually allow as maybe the critter may have been somewhat closer. The ones that are game will start banging away, and a couple after having finally went to a prone position managed to walk them in after a few rounds.
I believe I will develop a hollow point bullet for these Nimrods, with salt in the cavity. It will keep the meat from spoiling until they can get to it.

I did a clean miss on a Whitetail offhand at about 75 yards. And that's the truth. And I'm willing to admit it. In all my 40 years of big game hunting, I have made exactally 2 long shots, one measured at exactally 440 yards, the other paced at just at 400 yards or so. I was a sub adult in those days, stupid, but I did put all of my money into surplus 30 06 shells and carried my rifle wherever I went on my father's farm. I practiced shooting all the time and fox, crows and other varmits. Still, longs shots have been rare and for that I'm glad. While I did miss one deer this year, I did kill three others and did so at 35 to 40 feet, 120 to 130 yards, and 160 to 170 yards. I'm proudest of the 35 to 40 foot shot, the hell with 500 yards or 750 yards. I used my knowledge of deer to get close. Shooting depends on experience, but the farther the target in hunting, the more experience is replaced by chance and a hope for luck. Shooting at 500 yards is simply stupid. Funny how those Rambos won't carry a 30 30 into the field, but will fire at ranges that will make the bullet arrive at below the speed of a 30 30.

One more thing. A few months ago I purchased a laser equiped level to use in laying out concrete forms for and extention of my driveway. The level has a magnet on the bottom. I had it laying out when I got my rifle out to start loading and shooting for the hunting season. I got the idea of putting the laser leven on the bottomw of my barrel them stepping out on the back patio, which is also my 100 yard shooting range, and putting the laser on the target off hand. This is only 100 yards. My target holder is an old dog house set up on end, 4 feet high, by 3 feet wide. (The dog died.) I had a hard time holding the laser in the dog house, let along the paper target. I Mean I was wondering all over the place. Things changed when it steadied on a rest. I was surprised how steady I could hold. But by the same token, any small move sent the laser way off target. 500 yards off hand? BS!

Though I would never take that shot, you may want to be careful at challenging people to shoot 500 yards off-hand. Silhouette shooters shoot 500 meters (approx 550 yards) off-hand at ram size targets. At the Central Texas Silhouetta Association members regularly hit the rams.

Again, shooting a steel ram off-hand at 500 yards is quite a bit different than shooting a game animal off-hand. But it can be done.

If he had said off a bipod or a some sort of stable rest, like from a box blind we use here in TX it would be more likely.

FWIW,

Jim

my opinion:
Congratulations for making it, here's a kick in the ass for trying in the first place.

The guy says he would shoot offhand at 500 but has not.
My thoughts:
He may in fact be able to do it. I would not try it, but I know my limitations. Maybe he knows his.
He could also be one of those who does not really know the range and when he actually sees what 500 yds looks like starts looking for a rest.

This is the Internet. Hard to judge based on unknowns.

500 yards offhand? Even attempting it? Not very sporting. If he can do it consistantly (year I know, I don't think so either) he is in the wrong line of work. Send him on the next plane to the middle east or at least show him shooting positions and get him into some competition to get trophys. Then come back and talk to us.

Hcliff

Given that metallic silhouette is always shot offhand, and given that there's a 500 meter shot at the ram in high power metallic silhouette, and given that many shooters make that shot and knock down the target, it does not seem unreasonable to me that some shooters successfully make 500 yard offhand shots on elk.

(After writing this I saw that 338Lapua made a similar point above.)

[ 12-08-2002, 00:49: Message edited by: LE270 ]

Just the kind of shooter I would not hunt with!!
Noticed I said Shooter not Hunter. A hunter would know not to take such a shot-and get allot closer.
Unfortunately it seem this is becoming the norm in the woods- Big Supper Mag can Hit anything within a Mile Shooters!!! Please leave that kind of shooting at the range or competitions! It has no place in the woods.

Just because a shooter can hit the metal ram does not mean he could kill it. A shot in the ass or the horn knocks the ram down too. And They do it with specialized rifles at KNOWN Range.

[ 12-06-2002, 22:48: Message edited by: KevinNY ]

The first thing I ask a client when they tell me about a 4-600 yard (or longer) kill, is where they held. When they tell me, I can figure the real range, and it's never even close to what they think it was. I had a client with me a while back who is a good rifleman, but never quits talking about he and his fathers 400yard+ shots. They seeem to make a bunch of them. Whenever I ask him how far something is, he's off by a mile, just like the amount of holdover he describes in all of his stories. He guessed a feral goat at 700 yards that was only 320, and a deer at 400-425 that was 245. That's pretty much par for the course in my experience.

Don,
Sure that wasn't www.huntingBS.com?

ZM

Yada yada yada, so there is some people who can hit that ram or gong at 500 yards. Now have them do 50 jumpin jacks and take that shot in less than 10 seconds....Ummmmmm different story I becha.

The percentage of people who can hit that target off handed at 500 yards is very small.....about the same in golf for those that can shoot scratch golf, and when the course changes so does their score gents.

I believe the percentage of shooters who can hit that target at 500 yards is less than 1% of all the hunters in the entire hunting scene. Now how many of those would take a free handed shot at trophy bull, is more than likely less than .1 of one percent.

A 500 yard offhand shot at a standing broadside elk, I can believe. I am sure it can be done consistently by a practiced sillhouette shooter. Why anyone would try is beyond me though. At 500 yards you could surely take a rest and reduce the odds of even a little miss by a large margin.

1825 yards at a deer though? C'mon. I stay out of this long range crap because as long as its legal and its within the ability of the shooter there is not much to say. I don't think some of it should be considered "hunting" per se, but hey, life is full of grey areas. But 1825 yards at a deer?? My personal opinion is that your personal maximum range should be that range at which you can hit a pie plate every single time. You owe the animal at least that much. I'd like to how many people on this planet can hit a pie plate every single time, with a hunting caliber, at 1825 yards. And then I'd ask, why not stick to sniping pie plates and try hunting deer?

Just my two bits,
Canuck

Well, this Spammy character is full of s#!t. Look at this line, which I copied from his post:

"When I was out hunting whistle pigs with rocky I tagged a whistle pig with my 22-250 somewhere in the three hundred yard range. I could tell it was a kill by the raining down pieces of squirell."

A 22-250, regardless of bullet weight, does not have the energy to "explode" a varmint such as he describes, such that parts of the critter are "raining down." 200 yards, yes. But not 300 yards. The bullet will have lost too much energy by that time.

Okay... That said... While I don't believe the Spammy character when he claims that he can confidently shoot an elk offhand at 500 yards, I do believe that some folks could.

If you're looking at a kill zone of, say, 15 inches, that's 3 MOA at 500 yards. Can you shoot a 3 inch group at 100 yards offhand? Many folks can. So 3 MOA, or 15 inches at 500 yards isn't a stretch for a good rifleman.

Hunters and riflemen are two different breeds of people. Most good hunters aren't the greatest riflemen, and most of the good riflemen I know aren't the best hunters.

For a rifleman, the prospect of a 3 MOA offhand shot isn't that incredible.

Dan Newberry
green 788

1825 yards? that a mile here in Canada , how far is that in the states?

I wonder what kind of range finder that is. At that distance it is pure guessing and I doubt very seriously she came "close".

LE270

Although silhouette shooters regularly hit rams at 500 yards,they dont have to place the shot to knock it over as long as they hit it,with live game if your lucky enough to hit it,its extremely unlikely that you are going to humanely kill the animal-then from 500 yards away you'll most likely
never find the animal to finish it off.
I think its very unsportsmen like & anyone who tries it deserves a good kick in the backside or more,HIGHLY IRRISPONSIBLE!In my oppinion even to do so supported at that range is too,stalk closer or pass up the shot.

Tumbo

Just because you can do it on the range doesn't mean you can do it on game. In a silhouette match, it doesn't matter where you hit the ram, and they can't run off wounded to suffer and die. One is a game. The other is truly life or death. The animals deserve a more respect than a 500 yard offhand shot.

Scrappy

Concerning the range and how we know?
We have a military Laser rangefinder that's accurate to within 5 meters out to 12 miles.

Yes, she almost got this deer as I saw the impact of the bullet with the bigeyes we use. The equipment is pictured.

We just returned from Colorado with an 1800 yd kill on a Mule deer buck. We hunt this way and have for many years.

It's not for everyone, but in this section of PA, it's extremely popular. Most of the hunters here in the north central area are Longrange hunters.

Darryl Cassel

While , hitting an elk at 500 yards with my wrist rocket is an admirable feat, I wouldn't suggest it to others. Lets remember, I'm a trained PRO!

Gosh I don't know, it looks like you've dragged the range to the woods. My definition of 'hunting' is using knowledge of animal habits and your own skill in the woods to stalk as close as possible to the animal -- like Jim Corbett hunting tigers in India. But to each their own, as long as it's legal.

Todd

I have killed 2 big game animals at over 500 yards with my 7mm. One was off hand and the other with shooting sticks. I did under considerable stress to boot. How much hold over? I don't remember.

Actually, the 2 animals were allready wounded at a much closer range(NOT by me) and were going to be lost. Due to terrain, time of day etc. it was all I could do but shoot. Shoot, I did and I was horseshit lucky. I would not bet anything, if I could do it again.

My point is that I know it can be done, but why?
It is to risky to be ethical to shoot at game that far unless, for some good reason, you have no choice.

Daryl

Yukoner,

A WOUNDED animal is one thing, an unwounded animal is yet another.
I've guided enough poor shooters that I have had to do those "Hail Mary" shots a time or two myself. Or else risk losing that deer or elk to a painful death with the coyotes and magpies dining on it........a total waste.

Gents,

Several times despite my best efforts an animal is wounded. THEN if all you have is a 400 or 500 yd shot you do your best and try to take it.
There are surely those skilled enough to be succesful with a 400 or 500 yd shot but very few. The ones that scare me are the guys like I mentioned in my original post. He has luckily killed a few animals (with several shots) at long range, so now he IS a "long range hunter". He will end up wounding and losing more game than he will harvest. That lost game is game lost to everyone. He shoots not only his deer and elk, but wounds and loses a few more that should have gone to other hunters.....THATS what pisses me off with the long range guys. Throw in the suffering to the animals and you complete the picture. They NEVER seem to mention the misses, or the lost game. They only spout about the occasional lucky kill.

Whoever mentioned "What was your holdover"? Thats the way I filter out the BS too. This guy I mentioned is shooting a .300 mag and at 750 yds claimed to hold over "a few feet", and a few feet into a 20 mph wind. So the "BS filter" indicates the range was a lot less, or the shot was pure luck.

I have been fortunate to hunt South Africa twice and I like the system they have there for hunting. If you wound and lose an animal....THATS IT, thats your tag filled and you pay for it. I know its an impossible system for the USA but it would help to stop poor shots at not only long,but short ranges too.

FN in MT

Another point that is lost is that at extreme range, it is very difficult to find exactly where to begin looking for your animal. Sometimes, it is very hard to determine where he was standing on a 100 yard shot. Try finding the spot at 500 yards without a good landmark. even with a lot of blood, you may not find the right spot. He could run 50 yards into the brush and die without you ever finding him.

On wounded animals, it doesn't matter. Any additional lead you can get into him is helpful. I shot a wounded Javelina for a client the other day through the brush. It was a shot I would never take on an unwounded animal, but I knew he was about to bolt. It wasn't pretty, but it worked. Once you cut hair, getting him down is all that matters.

Never fails that this issue comes up time and time again. What I think is most funny is that the SR ( short range ) hunters go on and on about how you should get close. But I be they wouldn't hessitate to take a 100 or 200 yard shot. But if you go by the way they say you should hunt.. there is still plenty of room to get closer.
I do not advocate the "average" magnum macho guy going out an launching lead. There is no room for that in hunting. I do support and would be willing to offer what I know to the guy who is willing to spend the $$$ and time to learn to become a LR ( long range ) hunter. Yes I said hunter. Although it is at LR there is still hunting involved. Here in the west this type of hunting if practiced can be very rewarding and successful. Also, the East offers many areas to the same for conditoned individual. The hunting aspect takes place when you learn the travel routes and habits of the animals you are hunting. You also have to spend time knowing where these animals will be at different times of the year. This is ALL HUNTING. When you attempt to get close to a known animal, one you have identified and spotted this is called STALKING. Another area in which I personally have proven myself numerous times. Don't confuse the 2. I respect anyone who wants to hunt "traditionally" I to have hunted that way for 22 years and have kills as close as 10 feet. I find the challenge of LR hunting to be just as rewarding.
What many of you need to understand there is more to this type of hunting that getting a super magnum with loads of horsepower and launching lead at way off targets in the distance. Please take the time to learn how it is done before you assume how it is done.
As far as 500 yards offhand. Can it be done? Absolutly! But only by someone who was skilled at it. Maybe this guy is or has been trained or trained himself to be adept at those ranges. Does anyone know him personally? If you don't, do not be so quick to judge..... But of course this is typical of macho type or old school hunters. If you can't do it no one can right????

20 years ago when I was shooting highpower rifle competetion once a month and I practiced every week, I would have taken your bet on a 600 yard off hand shot using iron sights. I still shoot every week, but I just shoot offhand at 250 yards at one-gallon milk jugs.

500yds offhand!!is that not indian for "lousy hunter". please,please don't tell me he shot it with a MATCHKING!!!

Griff

Anyone that would take a 500 yard offhand shot at a live elk needs to be shot offhand at 50 yards before he gives the rest of us a bad name, and further alienates us from the rest of society.

I'll applaude a successful 500 yard offhand shot at a steel plate any day.

Go into any small town bar in Montana after shooting light during hunting season and you'll hear more than your fill of 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, etc shots.

99.9% of the time they are total BS. You can cut the stated range in half and it'll still likely be farther than the actual shot was. Or they don't tell you that there were three or four people shooting at the thing at the same time and after about 10 rounds from each, the animal finally went down.

These people wouldn't know what a Ballistic Coefficient was if you stamped the definition on their foreheads. They're usually shooting a hand-me-down 30-06 with factory ammo that's never been over a chronograph. Few even properly sight in their rifles--none practice regularly at any range, much less long range. They drive around in their pickups until they see a herd of something and then they all get out and open fire.

It's unfortunate that people like this exist, but they do.

Call them fools, idiots, slob hunters, the personification of very worst of our sport, etc. But do not call them Long Range Hunters. They are not. Lobbing lead at long range does not a Long Range Hunter make. They are the exact opposite of Long Range Hunters.

A Long Range Hunter would be the last person in the world to take an offhand shot at an elk at 500 yds.

Because Long Range Hunters actually practice at these ranges. They know even the best offhand shot in the world couldn't shoot with the accuracy they require at 500 yds.

They practice, in general, more than 99% of "regular hunters."

They know their exterior ballistics better than 99% of "regular hunters."

They do everything they can to ensure the most accurate shot possible.

They know the exact range to the target or they don't fire at all.

They know the limitations of their equipment and themselves.

They don't fire "hail Mary's."

They don't fire when the conditions are not good.

They don't go around wounding game like slob hunters.

If people here want to label these slob hunters as "Long Range Hunters" in an attempt to give Long Range Hunters a bad name, I guess it's a free country. But doing so only exposes your ignorance of the subject. And you're fooling yourselves.

Make no mistake about it, Slob Hunters give ALL HUNTERS a bad name. You included, whether you hunt "Long Range" or not.

[ 12-08-2002, 02:56: Message edited by: Jon A ]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

As I am ignorant on these matters, I will ask this question; "Does the average .30 caliber hunting round have sufficient energy at 1,825 yards to quickly and humanely kill a deer?"

Regards,

Terry

I believe it was none other than the legendary P. O. Ackley himself who said, "Most shooters couldn't hit a flock of circus tents off hand at 500 yards."

Amen Mr. Ackley. And I would hasten to add that very few shooters can even JUDGE that distance. I hadn't hunted for very many years before I learned to just stamp all accounts of hits over 300/350 yds as BS....or BSL. (Blind Staggering Luck.)

I know the occasional shot is made beyond these ranges but they are far from the norm and most often luck.

Sorry,
But i ain't nothing good to say so i won't say nothing at all! "WANTA BE HUNTERS" OOOHHHHH Sorry i wasn't gonna say anything!!!!!!