Mr. Carr

The answer to your question is NO with this addition.

The average 30 cal cartridge that you buy over the counter, don't have the energy at those ranges.

The LR hunter has large magnum Improved cartridges with long barrels of 34" to 40" for additional velocity.

With some of the equipment that they have, now the answer is Yes there is enough energy to kill at those ranges and it has been done many times.

Later
DC

I Long Range Hunt,and so far this year 11 deer have been taken by myself and my crew.At ranges from 610 yard's to 850 yard's..Two of the deer we have taken were already hit.A six point that was hit in the ass,and a doe with it's front leg blown off.Both of those deer were shot by short range hunter's.No effert was made by the so called HUNTER'S to go after the deer.And the suffered for about an hour until the HUNTER'S cleared the hill,so we could finish the job they started.There are SLOB hunter's on both end's.Short and Long.But don't even think for one minute that because I HUNT deer at range's most people think immpossable,that I am one of them...

Boyd,

Glad to see you made up for the blatent a$$nine , slob SRH's. I see that stuff every year to back east. 10 guys pushing a hillside and throwing lead. I hate that!! Probobly some of the same guys that are banishing LRH on this very thread do the same thing. But that may be OK?? cause it is at short range right?!?
We had a situation here this year where a bunch of SRH's over 15 of them ended up catching a herd of about 300 Elk moving off private property to public land. When I tell you it sounded like a war I MEAN IT SOUNDED LIKE A WAR. There were bullets and hair flying everywhere. over 60 animals were wounded. BECAUSE the SRH's got all crazy and just started throwing lead into the herd!. A local called Game and Fish. Everyone who fired in that 10 min. got sited for wreckless endagerment. So the story goes. That was a beautiful thing! Sometimes you gotta love the law!! A bunch of locals and Game and Fish finished up by ending the suffering of the wounded animals and donated the meat to the needy. I was told.
I think we kept it out of the papers it was pretty hush hush.

But just goes to show you that ALL the Short range hunters here would have joined in that maylay but they are saying that shooting over 500 yards isn't right. But yanking on the trigger at 300 Elk at 80 yards is OK.. just keep yankin' till they drop right!! Then we'll go have a brewski and laugh about it!! All short range hunters are alike. They are all guilty of this disgusting way of killing!! You know and I know everyone of them on this board would have joined in!!

For all you SHR's who are angered by my comments because I have lumped you all into one group... how does it feel. Makes ya angry right!! Probobly wanna take a swing at me huh....

Don't lump all LRH's into one group. Maybe you wanna ask the guy making these unbelievable claims how he went about it. How he prepared for it. How many rounds he has fired this year. All those rounds learning his rifle's capabilities and external ballistics of his custom load.

Don't judge a book by it cover. I realize we all have opinions but it just ain't fair to stereo type.

have a great day....

I think it could be possible to do. I recall a shot as a much younger hunter that may have been around 400m offand at wounded goat but I put it down to pure luck. I was not capable of that sort of a shot at the time, nor do I think I could take a 500yrd shot offhand today without first a lot of practice, for instance on siluetts with my hunting rifle, and scope.
with a solid rest and sound knowledge of your rifles tradjectory a 500yrd shot with a solid rest, plenty of time, should not present any great problems, but I won't call it sporting hunt. Sniping. Varminting and long range shooting come to mind, as enjoyable as these displines may be in their own, they are not the sporting hutners ideal.
In alpine hunting situations long shots can araise, but they make up part of the scenery and I will accept it there if the hunter is capable of taking them properly.

I think a more important issue here, and the whole reason this thread came to be is...SPAMMY is a WANKER. Thankfully not everyone there shared his opinions.

I'm glad to participate in a forum where that sort of talk would quickly be put into place by much more honest and capable hunters.

QUOTES:

I am pretty scary up to 500 yards with my 7mmSTW using 140gr Barnes XBT's @ 3,300fps with a good rest.
----
I got to askn him how many shots and how far it was he looks at me and spits ohhh somewhere in ball park of 500yds, so I ask how much his hold over was and he holds his hands up, and its about the height of an average computer screen 12-18"s. I guess that deer droped with one shot.
----
The dog I was shooting at was at a full 35 mph run at over five hundred yards.I should have made it clear I would shoot at a standing elk at 500 yards,not a running elk.That is not the only running yotey I have shot and killed at long distance.The regs in Idaho classify the coyote as a varmit.Any method of take,no bag limit.The reason I shoot at running dogs is that one yote will kill up to seven mulies a year each.Our herds are pressured enough.I will continue to shoot running dogs,even if I only wound it I am still hoping it will crawl off and die somewhere else.

As WyoWhisper said flock shooting is rampant in the west. I have been stalking in close to elk only to have WWIII open up around me more than once. I have shot 9 of 10 Rams in a row at 500 Meters more than once, and I have no doubt I could take an elk at 500 Meters offhand. I would never try it because, it is a stunt. I would take a good rest or stalk closer depending on conditions. 700 yards with a good rest and proper equipment would be easy compared to 500 yards offhand.

"30 cal enough energy @1825yds"
Just recalling an incident that was told to me by another member on this site,
U.S navy seal shoots terrorist in afghanistan @ "2000yds/meters" lucky shot or not! it had enough power/energy to do the biz!!
don't what the standard issue would be or if it would be a custom rifle ?

Griff

a few thoughts on this matter:

Past a certin range your activity changes from hunting to shooting. I do not know the exact range this change happens. However, if you are taking shots at something past 1000 yards, you are engaged in shooting not hunting.

If you truely can not get any closer to game then 500+ yards, maybe its time to get off the ATV or out of the truck.

Slobs with guns make all hunters and shooters look bad. Reguardless as to wheather the slob falls into the wannabe-hunter or wannabe-shooter catagory.

There seems to be a certin type of person who thinks thats lase range finders work by you first purchasing them. Then you add "by my laser range finder" to the end of you range guess/dream.

example: 1,563 yard "by my laser range finder"

Kristofer

[ 12-09-2002, 05:17: Message edited by: KBGuns ]

KBGuns

That's exactly why you take three readings from your laser Military rangefinder to make sure of the distance. It will come back the same reading everytime when mounted on a tripod though.

With the power of the Military units, there is no guess work what so ever. When it reads 1536 meters, it IS 1536 meters and you can take that to the bank. If you have never seen one work, you should.

You mentioned anything over 1000 yds.
What's the difference between 900 and 1100 yds besides 200 yds?

Does that mean 1000 yds is VERY possible and 1050 or 1100 is NOT?
Does it also mean that anything out to 1000 yds is alright with you?

I can assure you, we are not slob hunters. We do our homework well and practice all year waiting for hunting season to get here.
Have been doing it for years with success also.

Everyone should hunt the way they feel the most comfortable with. If you like bow huinting, muzzle loader, short range, longrange, go for it. There's room for everyone.

DC

[ 12-09-2002, 06:46: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]

I have little doubt that I can kill an elk offhand at 500 yards, if everything falls into place perfectly, that is, I am not panting or exhausted, the elk is posing, etc. Of course, if everything fell into place, I would be using some kind of rest or position besides standing.

Would I take the shot? No, absolutely not, unless something much more critical than the simple killing of an elk was dependent on it. The reason is simple, I don't KNOW that I can kill an elk first shot, every shot offhand at that distance, and would not take the chance on wounding one, UNLESS my family had to have that elk to eat, in which case he would be a shot or shot at elk, in a heartbeat. Fortunately for most of us and the elk those conditions seldom apply.

But honestly, killing an elk offhand at 500 yards, with a decent cartridge means that you can hold about 5 MOA. This is by no means an impossible goal.

DC,

I did not comment on the ability of a shooter to land shoots past a certin distance. Nor did I say that at some exact distance hitting becomes impossible. I stated past a certian distance it is no longer hunting. It is shooting, with reactive targets. I did state that past 1000 yards is clearly past that distance, but it is probly closer around 800 yards.

I did not mention 'slob hunters'. Again, slobs with guns who are wannabe-whatevers, make all gun owers look bad.

An well practiced rifleman, with a working knowledge of his rilfe's external ballistics, should be able to nail a target at 500 yards offhand. A decent rifleman, with the same knowledge should be able to do same with a good rest or prone.

I agree one should hunt/shoot how ever one hunts/shoots. I dont lose much sleep on weather the rest of the world agrees with me or not.

What was the cartridge/bullet/velocity of that gun that was used for the 1800+ yard shot?

Kristofer

[ 12-09-2002, 10:24: Message edited by: KBGuns ]

Hello KBGuns

The cartridge THAT day was a 300 Tomahawk (300 Ultra mag improved)with a 34" barrel.
I was using the Sierra 240 gr BT in front of 106 grs of powder and with a starting velocity of 3235 FPS

I normally use the 338/416 Rigby IMP with has a 37" barrel and will propel the 300 Gr Sierra in front of 122.5 grs of powder and giving me a velocity of 3310 FPS.

All velocities were taken over a Oehler Chronagraph and all drop charts are from the Oehler Ballistics programs for the most part. We actual fire during the year to make any correction to the programs we use.

I have all the downrange velocity and energy I need out to the range I have shot in the past and at present.

1800 has NOT been a problem in the past.

I should add here, my wife and I are both Officers at the Williamsport 1000 yd club and I have only missed 2 matches in the last 15 yrs.
1000 yd competitions help keep the skills honed and educates one self to a rifles capability. Most people have no idea what their own rifle is capable of.
Put a large custom rifle/cartridge combination with a long barrel for added velocity
in the mix, and with practice the ultra long range shots can be made on a regular basis.
You can't buy our rifles over the counter.

I did take my buck at only 75 yds this year though. I hunt other ways too and trying now to help my wife get hers at longrange. We BOTH prefer the Longrange way to any other ways we have hunted.

Take care and good hunting to all.

DC

[ 12-09-2002, 17:47: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]

Howdy KBguns,

Here's somthing I posted earlier,

"What I think is most funny is that the SR ( short range ) hunters go on and on about how you should get close. But, I bet they wouldn't hessitate to take a 100 or 200 yard shot. But if you go by the way they say you should hunt.. there is still plenty of room to get closer."

"I do not advocate the "average" magnum macho guy going out an launching lead. There is no room for that in hunting. I do support and would be willing to offer what I know to the guy who is willing to spend the $$$ and time to learn to become a LR ( long range ) hunter. Yes I said hunter. Although it is at LR there is still hunting involved. Here in the west this type of hunting if practiced can be very rewarding and successful. Also, the East offers many areas to the same for conditoned individual. The hunting aspect takes place when you learn the travel routes and habits of the animals you are hunting. You also have to spend time knowing where these animals will be at different times of the year. This is ALL HUNTING. When you attempt to get close to a known animal, one you have identified and spotted this is called STALKING. Another area in which I personally have proven myself numerous times. Don't confuse the 2. I respect anyone who wants to hunt "traditionally" I to have hunted that way for 22 years and have kills as close as 10 feet. I find the challenge of LR hunting to be just as rewarding.
What many of you need to understand there is more to this type of hunting than getting a super magnum with loads of horsepower and launching lead at way off targets in the distance. Please take the time to learn how it is done before you assume how it is done."

Looking forward to your thoughts,

RH

[ 12-09-2002, 18:01: Message edited by: WyoWhisper ]

Hey Darryl,
Here's my questions I figure the drop on your .338-416 as somewhere over 600 inches or around 50 feet at 1800 yards. (That's only from extrapolation...the ballistics calculator I used said it was 160+ inches at 1,000)

1. Who makes a scope with that kind of adjustment? Or do you use some other kind of setup (adjustable bases?)

2. What kind of rangefinder do you use that allows you to range a deer/elk at 1800 yards?

Kentucky

I use a several different scopes all with tapored bases to get me the yardage and adjustments I need and utilize the clicks within the scope.

On the 338/416 Rigby Imp I use the older B&L 6x to 24x external click scope with the Kuharsky rear base plus a tapored base, that gives me 500 1/4 Min elevation clicks. In the 1800 yd shot using the 338/416 Imp you mentioned, it would take 46.3 MOA or 185.2 1/4 Min clicks at the speed we run that bullet.

On the rifle pictured, I have the Leupold LR 8 1/2X to 25X with a .030" tapored base that gives me enough elevation to get to 2000 yds.

The laser rangefinder I own is the Russian Military unit that is fool proof within 5 Meters plus or minus out to 20,000 meters. They cost (when you can find them) from $3000.00 to $6000.00

Most people have never seen the equipment we have been using for years and have NO idea what can be done. When sniper teams in the military, at present, are taking out humans at 2000 yards, a deer or elk is NOT a major problem.

Like I mentioned, it's not for everyone and it's extremly expensive to get into the LR way correctly.
Most people would never consider investing this kind of money into it because most are only 3 day to 1 week a year hunters.

We hunt all ways (even Bow Hunt) and still enjoy the longrange way the best. There's alot more to placing a bullet downrange 1000 plus yards then what most can imagine, but it is being done all the time with a high success rate in the high steep mountain areas of PA and out west.

Good hunting to you.

DC

[ 12-09-2002, 20:14: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]

Most of these guy's that claim to shoot Elk out to 800 yards are totally full of crapola. They most likely in truth could not hit an elephant at that range. It's allot easier to make 500 - 600 yard shots from a bench rest than offhand and from a bench it's not a cake walk. The Moral of this story (The first Liar does not have a chance)
Just one man opinion.
You should have more respect for the animal you are hunting. And yes I know a blind Squirrel will root up an acorn every now and then but not every time.

[ 12-09-2002, 20:33: Message edited by: Handloader ]

Handloader,

Correct me if I am wrong.. but are you implying that LR Hunters have NO respect for the animals they hunt? If you are, can you enlighten me on what would constitute more respect for the animal your way than opposed to the LR way??

[ 12-09-2002, 20:58: Message edited by: WyoWhisper ]

How do you long range guys compensate for elevation differences? Just eyeball it?

I'll stick with my first post.. the heck with it

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by John Y Cannuck:
my opinion:
Congratulations for making it, here's a kick in the ass for trying in the first place.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Couldnt have said it better...
Congrats on the elk, not my way, but if you are happy with it, when's the BBQ?

Jeffe

[ 12-11-2002, 18:29: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

ScottB,

Pecos is right thats the easiest part of the equation..

Pecos. if you can't do it, no one can right?? Have ya ever seen a LR hunter do his thing. There is a video on the market made by a few of my friends who hunt this way. It will without a doubt make you a believer.

Jeffosso,

Your "friends" may not be LR hunters they sound more like hail mary's but it is hard to tell without knowing the setups they use. I doubt they take much care in preparation if they miss at 75 yards. But hey they probobly shoot at running deer too.... Thats my biggest problem with SR Hunters and slamming the LR guys. These SRH's won't hessitate to take a crack at a deer running full tilt... Whats the %age of hitting that animal... Or better yet wounding it...

[ 12-10-2002, 01:52: Message edited by: WyoWhisper ]

"When sniper teams in the military, at present, are taking out humans at 2000
yards"

Military snipers keep a log book of their shots. What are the success rates of 2000yard (military guys work in meters, why not give the range in meters) shots? I'd love to see the log books of the guys making the 2000yard shots.

Just curious.

"What many of you need to understand there is more to this type of hunting than getting a super magnum with loads of horsepower and launching lead at way off targets in the distance. Please take the time to learn how it is done before you assume how it is done."

While I am not my self a long range shooter, I do understand the mechanics of the situation. As well and the skills involved and the time spent devoloping these skills. I do not over simplify this shooting.

I do not doubt there are poeple who can do this. Nor do I argue that you are or are not one of them. I simply do not know you or your skills. If you say you can, I will take your word for it.

However I still disagree with it being hunting. Over disagreement on this point is philosophical, I doubt my ideas on the matter will be changed. I doubt your ideas can be either.

Kristofer

To each his own... it has been said before "there is room enough for all of us". I do not always LRH I do all types of hunting. I prefer LRH but I will take any opportunity that arises. I guess I have an ace in my pocket. Should the occasion arise to take an animal at distance I know I have the abilities to take it cleanly, quickly and hunainly.

>.308/240gr SMK starting @ 3235fps and 5576ft-lbs
>reachs 1000 yards in 1.2 seconds, with 1991fps and 2113ft-lbs
>reachs 1800 yards in 2.7 seocnds, with 1276fps and 867ft-lbs.

>.338/300gr SMK starting @ 3310fps/7297ft-lbs
>reachs 1000 yards in 1.1 seconds, with 2128fps and 3016ft-lbs
>reaches 1800 yards in 2.5 seconds, with 1412fps and 1328ft-lbs


I used BCs of .711 for the 308 and .768 for the 338 as per Sierra's page. The 308 is still a factory laoded 44mag at 1800 yards. The 338 is a 480ruger at the same distance. If you think magnum pistols are proper to take game with, then these two cartridges certinly can do it, but only if you hit and hit properly. However, the shooter missed at 1800 yards.

-Would you say you would not miss an 1800 yard shot?
-Would you say you would not miss a 1000 yard shot?

As for military snipers shotting at 2000 yards, they do not care if they only wound and then lose their game. Hunters are suposed to care. Target shooters dont care for their targets suffering or wasted death.

Kristofer

[ 12-10-2002, 08:11: Message edited by: KBGuns ]

I personally don't shoot over 1000. So I won't comment on that.
I do know that 800 -1000 ft lbs of energy is enough to quickly kill a deer.
Darryl will tell you misses are very unlikely. The way itis done is with sighter rounds. If the conditions are not right the shot is not taken.

As i mentioned ther is a video for sale that shows you all the details of how this is done. It will help you understand.

Wyowisper, What I said is that at these kind of ranges the average hunter can not place a shot on the animal,they can maybe hit the animal but shot placement has gone out the window. I'm not saying that there is not shooters out there that can't make good long range shots but they are few and far between. Myself I have taken whitetail out to 450 yards but the shot was made by knowing the exact range and was taken with a bipod. I still however believe that there are allot of varibles at long range such as the animal my take a step or two before the bullet gets there making for bad shot placement. I did not mean to ruffle feathers but allot of guy's say that they can make long range shots that can't, in truth shoot worth a damn. Myself I can make long range shots and truly enjoy shooting long range but I still try to get within 200 yards or so if at all possible and really prefer within 100 yards. I'm sorry if I upset you I was not questioning your abilities but I'm sure you have seen the guy's at the range that show up with a new 300 ultra mag and think that just because they have the gun they can kill anything they see at any distance and I beieve you will agree it just don't work that way. Because if your going to shoot long range you have to practice allot and then practice some more to become consistant.

What I have read here about this long range hunting I have found very intruiging and am quite curious to see the vid -( I doubt I could get it at amazon?).

I suppose no one slams varminters for shooting unknowing prairie dogs at 350m so why should we condem shooting deer at 1000 or 1800m? It is a just a different facet of hunting/shooting.

I would have the idea that the actual "shot" at the 1000+ distant animal might be the easiest part of the operation, and that the preparation and knowledge needed for setting it up and getting it right are the key factors.

This thread started because some guy was mouthing off about easily shooting elk and running coyotes offhand at 500 + yards, so maybe these guys who prefer to shoot their game from ultra distant positions don't deserve to be conemed as unsporting, even if it's not my idea of sporting hunting.
I would find it interesting and most likley enjoy trying or watching this type of hunting/shooting for a day.

T-Carr
Here some info to help you understand the stupidity of such a shot!!!
30-06 180 gr
Trajectory Output

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Input Data
Muzzle Velocity: 2800.0 ft/sec
Chronograph Distance: 10.000 feet
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.500
Drag Function: G1
Bullet Weight: 180 grains
Sight Height: 1.50 inches
Sight Offset: 0.00 inches
Wind Range Speed: 0 mph
Wind Vertical Speed: 0 mph
Wind Cross Speed: 10 mph
LOS Angle: 0 degrees
Cant Angle: 0 degrees
Target Speed: 10 mph
Target Angle: 90 degrees
Zero Range: 500 yards
Zero Height: 20 inches
Zero Offset: 0 inches
Temperature: 59.0 �F
Barometric Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Relative Humidity: 0.0 %
Altitude: 0 feet
Air Density: 100 % of Sea Level

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Calculated Table
Elevation: 17.634 moa
Azimuth: 0.000 moa

Range Velocity Energy Momentum Drop Windage Lead Time
(yards) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs) (lbs-sec) (inches) (inches) (inches) (sec)
0 2806.3 3147.5 2.24 -1.5 0.0 0.0 0.000
200 2442.2 2383.8 1.95 25.7 2.7 40.3 0.229
400 2108.2 1776.3 1.69 29.4 11.7 86.9 0.494
600 1801.6 1297.2 1.44 1.5 28.2 141.1 0.802
800 1528.5 933.7 1.22 -69.7 54.3 204.8 1.163
1000 1299.0 674.4 1.04 -200.9 91.8 279.9 1.590
1200 1127.3 507.9 0.90 -415.0 141.8 367.5 2.088
1400 1015.8 412.4 0.81 -738.4 203.3 466.6 2.651
1600 940.1 353.2 0.75 -1196.8 274.2 575.1 3.268
1800 881.7 310.7 0.70 -1813.3 353.1 691.7 3.930
0 0.0 0.0 0.00 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.000

[ 12-10-2002, 22:52: Message edited by: Gunnut45/454 ]

I'll stick with my first post.. the heck with it

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by John Y Cannuck:
my opinion:
Congratulations for making it, here's a kick in the ass for trying in the first place.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Couldnt have said it better...
Congrats on the elk, not my way, but if you are happy with it, when's the BBQ?

Jeffe

[ 12-11-2002, 18:29: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

I have a few questions for LR hunters and perhaps you guys can give me some answers.
1st pick a known rifle/load... doesnt matter, this will be a cross canyon shot.
1612 yards. between 353-655 yards, while your bullet is traveling across the canyon there is a 12 MPH cross wind at 55 deg (assume north is 0 deg) this then changes to 8 mph at 47 deg for the next 227 yards, then 2 mph at 27 deg (opposite direction) for the next 447 yards and the remander yardage 8mph again at 43 deg. what is your drift? What is it when your individual MPH values change by 25%? (not the total sum)?
Also I would like to know between 1400-1700 yards the drift from a 3,4,5,8,mph in incraments of 25 yards... seriously. I dont have a BC program.
Take care
smallfry

Wyowhisper,I really liked your website and I saw an old hooker I hadn't seen in a long time,at least not from the front of her head. Old dollie is definately a good shag baby.

WyoWhisper, I resent the remark made previously in this thread about all SRH being slobs and that everyone of us has done something like your very sad story of the wounded elk herd. I hunt at relatively short range compared to what you apparently shoot at, but I dont' take a shot unless I KNOW without a doubt that I can hit it, much like you do. Don't group me into the small percentage of slob hunters that make us all look bad, and for goodness sake we hunters are fighting for our rights as it is, let's not make it worse by fighting amongst ourselves. Yes, what those hunter you observed did was wrong, but not all hunters are like that. Statements such as those you are throwing around are more damaging than anything an anti could say about us. I have kindly invited my friends out of my duck blind for bringing in a case of Old Milwaukee and expecting to drink it while we "waited for the fucking ducks". I not so nicely told them that if that's what they thought of hunting that they could get out of my blind, besides the fact that drinking and shooting/hunting is at least as dangerous as drinking and driving. We are not all slobs, and quit trying to sound so damned much better than the people that forged the way for us to have hunting privileges and rights.
Yardbird

Handloader,
I am not upset, never was. My point was that many of the guys that call themselves LRH are not really LRH. I wholeheartedly agree that the avg. guy cannot make those shots. I was one of those guys 3-4 years ago. I took 2 years to practice and learn ballistics and loads of other stuff that you need to know to do this correctly. That is why I still don't dhoot to 1000 yards. I am not that good ..yet...

EXPRESS,
the video can be purchased by e-mailing this address
keenvisionvideo@suscom.net

Gunnnut..I don't know anyone that uses a 30-06 for shots to 1000. The rifles are custom rifles with barrels over 30 inches. I just orders a custom 300 RUM with a 30 inch tube to get me to 1K.

Jeffosso,

I don't feel threatended by you challenge of ethics.. no sweat here.. you already played your card by admitting you shoot at running deer..

I am ready when you are...

Yardbird,

I don't lump you into any group. That was my point.. there are slob LRH and slob SRH.. just cause someone here says he can do it.. the guys here should at least take the time to find out who the guy is and if he is capable...
I help alot of guys every year OPEN their eyes to this way of being able to hit targets way off.. it is amazing what a little education and practice can do...

and lastly.. DOUGY,

step out from behind your computer you worthless coward. better yet if you have been to my website. call me ... or stop in and visit.. you don'tknow me or what I used to do for a living and remember this is the internet there are ways to find out who you are...
you have show what type of man you are by saying what you have... i look forward to meeting you...
I am here when ever you are ready to face me.. but i doubt you have the balls to do that...

IF ANYONE HERE KNOWS THIS GUY E-MAIL ME...!!!!

Blow him off, WyoWhisper.

He really has nothing to say hence he spouts forth from the sanctity of his computer.... which is probably the only friend he has!

We seem to be gathering a number of these cyber punks recently who find it necessary to exercise their trash mouths in a venue where there is little if any accountability.

Best revenge is this; every morning DOUGY wakes up only to discover he is still.... DOUGY!

Take care.

~Holmes

WyoWhisper,

The reason I asked about elevation differences, is that at 200 meters (handgun) I noticed that windage was consistent (454 Casull, big, ugly, slow and heavy) but elevation makes a huge difference. I know this doesn't translate well into long range race rifles, but it has to be a factor.

Also, I have another question, regarding bullet speed. You may never experience this with a rifle, but I noticed that if I load a certain velocity, the shots are wild beyond a certain distance. I was told that it is because I am dropping to subsonic in flight. Does this become a factor for you, or do you stay well above that line? I guess you probably do, as a small slow bullet would be worthless for hunting.

I like your ranch. I want to apply for the job as head wrangler. But you'll have to get rid of the horses and go with dirt bikes. Oh, and add white gravy to the breakfast menu

GO WYO,GO WYO,IT'S YOUR BIRTHDAY....Dougy...That was WAAAAYYYYY below the belt...And I think you are a total ass for saying it...What a Dick..........

Wyo, where can I get this video you're talking about? I don't know of any long-range ranges here in Iowa (just moved from SD), but the thought of hitting targets at those kind of ranges, even 700 yds. or less intrigues me. I don't think I'd try to take deer at those ranges, but a p-dog or coyote would be fair game to me. I'm interested in the video, where can I find it. No, you don't have a convert, but I'm a curious man. The biggest factor for me is that I can simply not afford the set-ups you use. I've killed enough deer with my M70 .30-06 out to 400 yds. and can't afford to buy a custom rig and $5000 range finder and big-eye swarovski optics. I do the best with what I can, but I have a .243 that loves 55gr. BT's, my longest shot with that is a paced 642 yds. on a p-dog, no wind, educated guess on hold over with a 10x scope. Yes, a bit of luck involved.
Yardbird

I forgot, what's wyo's website address?
yardbird