quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
465 H&H:

As an African everything small and furry that has incisors bigger than it's canines is a " goafer" or maybe not

Actually this thread heiglights exactly what is wrong with terminal ballistics theory and practice as promoted in the lay shooting press.

What is particularly frightning about this is that for many years this was the only source of information used by many people and instances regarding the subject.

Not only that there are text books in Trauma and medicine that still propagate erroneous theory.

I just bought the latest edition of Rockwood and Green's Fractures in adults and children ( 2006) and the chapter on wound ballisitcs and missile injury still propose erroneous theory on how the wounds are caused.

ALF,
It has been very interesting to lurk on this thread and observe the discussion. As a US Army physician, I have seen my share of bullet wounds. As a hunter I've seen my share of "bang-flops" (which by the way, I feel most of mine have been from rapid cerebral hypoperfusion secondary to mediastinal trauma). You have obviously researched the topic more extensively than I have. I have not read Dr. Fackler extensively either. Just enough to know that I don't agree with everything of his. He is just one man. Your explanations are interesting and logical.

You are probably wasting your breath in this forum though. Your "argument" here can not be won due to a couple of reasons:
1. Faith. It is kind of like trying to convince someone who believes in strict Creationism to accept evolution.

2. Complexity. Not all readers will be intellectually equipped/educated to comprehend the posts. This is not directed at anyone, so don't get offended.

Wes


On an extraneous topic, I have two questions for you:
1. Do you believe in the ability for high velocity abdominal projectile to indirectly rupture a hollow viscous due to an expansion of luminal gas generated by the temporary stretch cavity?
2. Have you have read Volume I of the Textbook of Military Medicine ("Conventional Warfare: Ballistic, Blast, and Burn Injuries")? It is where most of my learning about GSW comes from and I was interested in your assessment. Published by the Office of the Surgeon General.

Great subject matter. I only have experience hunting White Tails and Wild Boar, but have shot my fair share of both.

My only bang/flops are:
1 1/2 year old White Tail Buck .257 roberts
4 1/2 year old Buck .257 roberts
3 1/2 year old Buck .257 roberts
I have shot several does through the heart or lungs that fell right over. Probably 7 or so that dropped in their tracks and one with a bow that ran all of 10 yards before flopping over

I dropped one 210 lb boar with a .257 roberts
and several small ones that aren't worth mentioning.

I have shot 3 white tail bucks through the heart that ran less than 60 yards with my .257 and shot a 280 lb 130 class 4 1/2 year old buck with my 50 cal muzzle loader that clipped the heart and he still ran 60 yards. I couldn't believe that one.

The most amazing story I have ever heard is one of my best friends shot a world class buck on a trip I was on with his 50 cal muzzleloader TWICE that hit the deer in the lungs both times. It dropped in its tracks on the first show. He put another bullet in it just to be safe. He waited 15 minutes, got off his stand and went to go retrieve what was estimated to be over a 170 class buck. When he got 10 feet fromt he buck it got up and ran. It wheezed blood in a spray all over the place and we thought for sure we'd find him but never did. We lost the blood trail at a river about 500 yards away. It got too dark so we came back the next morning but no luck in finding it. It was one of the worst feelings I've ever had for another hunter.

quote:

2. Complexity. Not all readers will be intellectually equipped/educated to comprehend the posts. This is not directed at anyone, so don't get offended.

I'm not offended. I have an engineering degree from Georgia Tech and I've gotten lost a couple of time reading this thread. But I think I have my own example that I will present in Layman's terms.

I used to religiously hunt with a 120 grain Nosler Partition Lead tipped bullet for my .257 roberts. I had a few bang/drops with this round and it was highly effective for deer and boar in Georgia. I then had a close friend who made his own ammo convince me that "ballistic tip bullets are the best!!" This was complete BS. The bullet rarely penetrated all the way through the animal and the only way it ever did serious damage to an animal is when it hit bone mass on entry. This created two huge problems:
1.) From my experience the animals bled less making me jump through hoops just to recover the animal. First, the exit wounds were small if the bullet missed bone mass and the animal didn;t leave a lot of blood trail or worse I never got an exit wound at all and if the animal ran, the blood trail was often non-existent.
2.) I didn't see any significant increase in internal damage because of the ballistic tip.

I went back to my Nosler Partition Hornady P+ 120 grain bullets, and I'm having much better success because the bullet doesn't lose its mass on entry and penetrates deeper and leaves better exit wounds when it doesn't hit bone mass. It also mushrooms better retainign its mass and shock more uniformly through the animal. I've studied physics but I've missed a few classes and it wasn't my best subject.

That said, My Nosler Partition Bullet held its mass better, mushroomed better and hence provided more knock down power because it was more uniform on entry and exit.

The better a bullet is able to retain its mass if velocity is a constant is important to me because while it may or may not provide more damage to the animal (and I think it does do more) it gives me more success in killing and RETRIEVING the animal.

now I don't know how this fits into your arguement, but I was reminded of this when reading through this thread.

quote:

If you take the very same bullet, same velocity and fire it into a side of beef or elk or anything really large, does that animal explode in the same manner as the goafer? No !and that should be the clue.

Alf, you don't compare apples to apples.

To recieve the same result you would have to amplify the bullet and velocity by means of ratio w/ body size and structure. Then, my friend you would have the same effect. I had already stated in an earlier post that you couldn't compare the two.

You didn't answer the question I posed about a buck I shot mere months ago. I've seen the same thing happen many times.

I can asure you that I understand the physical traits of this talk. As to being educated, I have a Engineering degree from one of the prominent engineering colleges in the states and as far as Physics goes, I'm also tutoring a student now that is in an engineering physics class. I know alittle about it I guess you could say.

The thing that strikes me the most about you long post is they vary in point too much over a period of times. It seems you throw one theory out and then oppose it later. Not saying you are not knowledgeable about your sources but, it seems you have posted conflicting evidence from them.

I would feel much better about your theories if in fact they were your theories, not something you read about someone whom many many folks disagree with. It is merely his theory, I would urge you to do many experiments of your own before you feel your authors are actually correct. It is merely their opinion and theior opinion alone.

I have my own theory which just so happens to be very close to so many very knowledgable folks, who are also very experienced hunters as well.

Like I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I'll put my beliefs in my actual experiences, that is not only from authors I've read theories from but, also by my field tested experience time and time again.

Have a Wonderful Weekend I'm off to the river for a little fishing expedition. See you fellas next week.

Reloader

ALF:

Forget about the paragraph relating to shock I posted above, and go to the web site (the link I posted).

/

quote:

You are probably wasting your breath in this forum though. Your "argument" here can not be won due to a couple of reasons:
1. Faith. It is kind of like trying to convince someone who believes in strict Creationism to accept evolution.

2. Complexity. Not all readers will be intellectually equipped/educated to comprehend the posts. This is not directed at anyone, so don't get offended.

Wes

You may "feel" intellectually superior to most in this forum, but in my view your comment show a lack of maturity and respect for others here, including myself. Such a smart person should have realized that Loooonnnng technical articles such as the copied and pasted ones-by ALF-are extremely tedious. You have also failed to understand that ALF's posts are directed to all those at this forum, not just to the exceptionally intellectual ones like you.

.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF

Ray:

[b] This is sadly typical of the bullshit that is published about wound ballistics theory in the popular press!

Fluid dynamics yes ! but how does this person link it to projectile motion in a solid medium ?

ALF: The author refers to a "boat's wake" simply trying to make it easier for all to understand. In this case he is exemplifying a liquid medium, but if it was an aircraft (or a bullet), the medium would be air. Now, about solids: would pool balls be solid enough for you? What happens to the shape of a pool ball when hit by another? Does it maintain 100% of its form, or does it "gives" and then expands the other way?

quote:

Tissue can be compressed and stretched ! Not only that in living form it does so all by itself, it stores energy, and makes energy! this author is obviously oblivious of the true nature of living tissue ! Tissue contains 60% water but tissue is not a fluid, it is a solid, it does not flow, it has structure and behaves to stress ( force) by undergoing strain ( deformation)
Tissue is elastic and if the boundries of elasticity are breached the tissue undergoes plastic deformation

If you read the whole article-instead of the paragraph I posted-you will realize that the author agrees with your view on the elasticity of tissue and how it moves under the stress of a bullet impact.

quote:

The shockwave from a rifle shot moves so fast and so hard that it literally shatters the cellular walls.

The shockwave that passes through the target medium does no damage! it is a proven fact! just as the shock waves of ESWL do no damage ! It is the compression and stretch of temporary cavitation or direct crush of the impact of bullets to cells that damages them

Perhaps you are correct, but how do you explain the conflicting reports from the medical community relating to the sound waves used to disintegrate kidney stones? Data has been published for years relating to the possibility of cellular damage to surrounding organs during this procedure.

quote:

There is not one scientific paper in the terminal ballistics literature that shows a histological proof or examples of tissue turning to Jelly !

How then can you explain the 10" (or more in diameter) of jellied flesh and blood around the entrance and exit wounds of the moose I kill each year with my .338WM, and the ones killed by my hunting partner with his 7mm Mag?

quote:

[color:RED]What is power ? Is this person referring to kinetic energy? or velocity, if so then he is flat wrong cause velocity and kinetic energy may cause bigger temporary cavitation all else equal but the temporary cavitation does not necessarily imply damage ! The tissue type determines whether the cavity is going to cause damage !

I imagine he is referring to both velocity and energy. For example, the difference from a 250-grain bullet fired from a .338 Lapua at nearly 3,000 fps, and that of a .338-06 (same weight) fired at 2,300 fps.

quote:

There is no recorded instance of distant ( and distant is defined as damage beyond the temporary cavity) damage due to shock waves or any other phenomena in terminal ballistics.

The simple fact that you are quoting data from somebody else should tell you that we (humans) don't know enough about ballistics, but a lot about "theory."

quote:

All damage is either due to direct crush or strtech ( temporary cavitation) effect of the projectile or it's fragments or secondary projectiles liberated from the target medium. Therefore damage is relagated to the boundries of the permanent and sometimes ( not always) the temporary cavity

Maybe yes, maybe no.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray:

quote:

You are probably wasting your breath in this forum though. Your "argument" here can not be won due to a couple of reasons:
1. Faith. It is kind of like trying to convince someone who believes in strict Creationism to accept evolution.

2. Complexity. Not all readers will be intellectually equipped/educated to comprehend the posts. This is not directed at anyone, so don't get offended.

Wes

You may "feel" intellectually superior to most in this forum, but in my view your comment show a lack of maturity and respect for others here, including myself. Such a smart person should have realized that Loooonnnng technical articles such as the copied and pasted ones-by ALF-are extremely tedious. You have also failed to understand that ALF's posts are directed to all those at this forum, not just to the exceptionally intellectual ones like you.

Ray,
Sorry for any offence. Didn't mean to come off as a cock if thats how you took it. No comments were directed at you certainly. I don't claim to understand everything presented here either. I was just noting that ALF's posts are very technical and likely not fully appreciated here by all. Further, his arguments based on science are being countered with antecdotal observations and unsupported opinions. Not the best way to win a debate in my opinion.
In any case, your sarcasm likely would come off better in person.
take care,

Wes

quote:

Originally posted by WESR:
...I was just noting that ALF's posts are very technical and likely not fully appreciated here by all. Further, his arguments based on science are being countered with antecdotal observations and unsupported opinions. Not the best way to win a debate in my opinion....

Hey Wes, It appears you are having a problem understanding alf simply dosen't know what he is talking about - when it comes to " Game ". This Board is not about Killing or Wounding humans.

You can talk about all the "antecdotal observations and unsupported opinions" that you desire, but it shows you also don't have a clue about the people who actually Kill Game on this Board. Many have hundreds of Kills and quite a few have Kills in the thousands. I know of one for sure that has a whole lot more than that.

So for you to mention alf is posting "arguments based on science" which deals with Killing and Wounding humans, from a source who thinks a knife wound is more serious than an Expanding Bullet, in a discussion on Killing Game, then you are as big a fool as alf and his merry band of stooges.

No sarcasm, just facts.
---

Hey Reloader, At some point you will realize it is impossible to discuss Killing Game with alf. He is constantly going off on irrelevant tangents that have nothing to do with with the subject at all as you have already noticed when you said:

quote:

Alf, you don't compare apples to apples.

I've yet to see anyone step forward who is ready to swap their firearms for knives and spears, and that is the level of complete stupidity the discussion goes to with alf.

Pitiful!

.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by WESR:
...I was just noting that ALF's posts are very technical and likely not fully appreciated here by all. Further, his arguments based on science are being countered with antecdotal observations and unsupported opinions. Not the best way to win a debate in my opinion....

Hey Wes, It appears you are having a problem understanding alf simply dosen't know what he is talking about - when it comes to " Game ". This Board is not about Killing or Wounding humans.

You can talk about all the "antecdotal observations and unsupported opinions" that you desire, but it shows you also don't have a clue about the people who actually Kill Game on this Board. Many have hundreds of Kills and quite a few have Kills in the thousands. I know of one for sure that has a whole lot more than that.

So for you to mention alf is posting "arguments based on science" which deals with Killing and Wounding humans, from a source who thinks a knife wound is more serious than an Expanding Bullet, in a discussion on Killing Game, then you are as big a fool as alf and his merry band of stooges.

No sarcasm, just facts.
---

Hey Reloader, At some point you will realize it is impossible to discuss Killing Game with alf. He is constantly going off on irrelevant tangents that have nothing to do with with the subject at all as you have already noticed when you said:

quote:

Alf, you don't compare apples to apples.

I've yet to see anyone step forward who is ready to swap their firearms for knives and spears, and that is the level of complete stupidity the discussion goes to with alf.

Pitiful!

Hotcore,
You raise a valid point when you differentiate between humans and other animals. We make a lot of assumptions in comparing the two. I suspect most of those assumptions are valid however.

As this discussion has veered way off course with too much emotion, let me give you my opinion on what causes "bang-flops" based on my understanding of physiology and experience with "bang-flops". First of all, we are assuming that all bangflops are caused by a single physiologic sequence of events. This may be a fallacy. Perhaps several different wounding events could all end with the perception of a "bang-flop". Certainly, an animal shot in the brain does a bang-flop, but so do many shot in the chest. Not all chest wounds are the same either. If cerebral blood flow goes to zero, a person will be unconscious in a couple of seconds, and I have no reason to think the same thing will not happen to a game animal. If the large vessels of the mediastinum are transected by a bullet, cerebral blood flow would likely become negative with gravity draining the arteries back into the chest. Consciousness of the animal is lost in a couple of seconds. If the animal is not "knocked-down" by the shot, they can run quite a distance in a few seconds. I think most "bang-flops" occur when the animal falls through lack of skeletal support after the shot and then very quickly "blacks out" from absent cerebral perfusion before it can regain it's feet. I suspect that differences in animals' temperaments contribute to whether they will ever regain their feet. I certainly don't believe in any magical hydroshock wave which kills like lightening.

Comments?

Wes

.

quote:

Originally posted by WESR:
... You raise a valid point when you differentiate between humans and other animals. We make a lot of assumptions in comparing the two. I suspect most of those assumptions are valid however.

Hey Wes, That is an excellent way for you to phrase it, because you are saying you are "guessing" at what is unknown - to you - and certainly alf doesn't have the faintest idea.

Making those "assumptions" between Humans and Game may indeed have a place, but it isn't on a Hunting Board. I have a good bit of first-hand experience with Human Killing form my MARINE CORPS days and a whole lot of first-hand experience Killing Game and Varmints. With that experience, I can confidently tell you there are considerably more differences than similiarities in each.

quote:

As this discussion has veered way off course with too much emotion, let me give you my opinion on what causes "bang-flops" based on my understanding of physiology and experience with "bang-flops". First of all, we are assuming that all bangflops are caused by a single physiologic sequence of events. This may be a fallacy. Perhaps several different wounding events could all end with the perception of a "bang-flop".

I agree those that beleive the "bangflops" are cause by a single event are(shall we say) dead wrong. Let me compliment you on your "weasle word" ability. Plenty of speculation and guessing.

quote:

Certainly, an animal shot in the brain does a bang-flop, but so do many shot in the chest. Not all chest wounds are the same either. If cerebral blood flow goes to zero, a person will be unconscious in a couple of seconds, and I have no reason to think the same thing will not happen to a game animal.

Again, discussing Human Kills has absolutely NO place on a Hunting Board. You have been led down this path by a fool who has not the slightest clue of why this is improper.

Normally, I'm all for a person posting whatever they are thinking and detailing how it relates to a thread. I do draw a line when it comes to discussing Killing Humans on a Hunting Board. It makes the person doing it appear to be as big a fool as alf. So, I would "encourage" you to re-think your posts and confine them to Game. If you have as little first-hand experience in Killing Game as it appears, you could certainly learn a lot from those with experience.

quote:

If the large vessels of the mediastinum are transected by a bullet, cerebral blood flow would likely become negative with gravity draining the arteries back into the chest. Consciousness of the animal is lost in a couple of seconds. If the animal is not "knocked-down" by the shot, they can run quite a distance in a few seconds. I think most "bang-flops" occur when the animal falls through lack of skeletal support after the shot and then very quickly "blacks out" from absent cerebral perfusion before it can regain it's feet. I suspect that differences in animals' temperaments contribute to whether they will ever regain their feet.

Excellent speculation.

quote:

I certainly don't believe in any magical hydroshock wave which kills like lightening.

You have a lot to learn. If you base your "education" on information provided by idiots like frackler and alf, you will continue to get it wrong.
---

Wes, let me suggest you do the following to better "educate" yourself with some First-Hand Killing Experience.

Since it "appears" you think alf and frackler know something worthwhile, get a Knife and go Kill a Crow(during the Season) or a Chipmunk. Take flicks of the remains, weight them and make some notes on the sizes of the individual pieces(still 1-piece in this case).

Then take a 22LR Solid and Kill the another similar critter by shooting it. And repeat with a 22LR Hollow Point.

Then shoot another one using a 52gr Speer Hollow Point from a 223Rem and another using that same bullet from a 22-250Rem.

Watch what happens, check the size of the "remains" and compare the notes.

Once you do that, you will gain a bit of First-hand Experience with what you call the "hydroshock wave" and will have quite an appreciation for Kinetic Energy being transfered into an animal or bird as the case may be.

At that point you will not have to "guess" about your "hydroshock wave", nor that alf and frackler are fools.

.

This "Bang-Flop" thread has really stirred some...stuff!

The shock wave theory is not really how I look at "shock" at all when talking wounds. To me "shock" in an animal is going to be similar to humans in that we go into "shock" when we suffer major trauma. Without getting to far into this, just think about the times you've seen the badly wounded soldiers reacting to thier wounds. Car accident victims also react strangly at times.

back to animals........
The trauma causes an overload if you will of the CNS. This may be due to direct involvement, such as a spine hit, or indirect involvement.
It's this indirect involement that I think is generally called "shock" by most. This reaction by the animal is the result of the trauma. When this rapid, massive amount of trauma happens it causes huge blood loss but also triggers nerves to respond. This neurological reaction is part of the bang flop phenomenon. Not only is there a huge distruption in the circulatory system but the brain gets overloaded. I've seen this reaction with chest shots when using softer bullets that open quick and do a lot of internal damage. I've not yet seen it with an X bullet. I've not used Failsafes or any of the new MRX's, but have the belief at this point that the "controlled expansion", (are not all bullets that are not made to fragment controlled expansion?) "Super Premium" bullets don't have as large of an effective wound channel however deep it may be.

My personal bang flops not assosciated with hitting the spine have been limited to Nosler Ballistic Tip's and Sierra GameKings on deer. I've had to many to ponder on coyotes but again I use HP or Nosler BT's mostly. This also supports the rapid expansion causes trauma and shock theory. I've not had this happen on anything larger. (Elk) I've not been to Africa, nor hunted big bears.

So to summarize: Bang-Flops are the result of a neuro overload as much as they are related to actual wound cavity in my opinion. Again though not every animal reacts the same.

On a side note, I do like the heated debate and slinging of technical data. I may pick up on something new, but I don't visit a hunting board to argue about science. Nate

Hotcore,
For the love of God? I am not chosing anyone's side here. If you read my comments, I clearly stated that I don't agree with what I have read of Frackler. Again, too much emotion here.

As far as I know, you have no idea what my level of hunting experience is. You seem to act like you do though. Do we know each other Hotcore?

I have plenty of firsthand killing experience and often have correlated the reaction of the animal to being shot with the postmordum findings.

You seem very critical of my language. To this I would respond that only a fool speaks with absolute certainty. A wise man acknowledges the possibility of being wrong. Do you disagree? I am always willing to accept new information.

I would certainly like to discuss with you your comments about "hydroshock" waves in your last post as I disagree strongly with what you are promoting. I will not however be drug into name calling and getting personal.

Hotcore: If you would like to have some academic debate over this, let me know. Any comments on my proposed explanation for "bang-flops"?

Wes

quote:

Originally posted by WESR:
...For the love of God? I am not chosing anyone's side here. If you read my comments, I clearly stated that I don't agree with what I have read of Frackler. Again, too much emotion here.

As far as I know, you have no idea what my level of hunting experience is. You seem to act like you do though. Do we know each other Hotcore?

I have plenty of firsthand killing experience....

Hey Wes, From what I read from your previous posts, it seems to belie what you just posted.

quote:

Originally posted by WESR:
...I was just noting that ALF's posts are very technical and likely not fully appreciated here by all. Further, his arguments based on science are being countered with antecdotal observations and unsupported opinions. Not the best way to win a debate in my opinion....

It is quite clear to me that you "agreed" with alf's ignorance in that post. And since you did, that is all the indication I needed(or anyone else with real first-hand experience) to understand your "level of hunting experience".

I've no desire to argue with you, so I'll just wish you the best of luck.

.

I can remember six instances off the top of my head:
1.) Mulie antlered doe shot at 150 yards with a 308 and a 165 grain Interlock. Hit low in the shoulder and travelled up and broke the spine (shooting uphill)
2.) Antelope at 400 yards with a 243 and a 85 grain Partition, shot in the liver.
3.) Antelope at 200 yards on the trot (wounded by another hunter) broke shoulder and spine with 140 g TSX out of a 7 Mag
4.) Antelope at 268 yards (wounded by another hunter) shot behind the last rib, through the heart, exited at the breastbone. Another 140 g TSX from the 7 Mag.
5.) Elk cow shot at 70 yards with a 420 grain minie out of a .54 caliber muzzle loader, shot in the throat and broke the neck.
6.) Elk cow shot at 100 yards with a 180 grain Hornady interlock from a 30.06. Spine broke where the neck joins the shoulder.

.

Alf: great lead in for where I want to go on this. It is possible that their maybe more then one correct answer to the question?

I have a gunsmith that is both a serious hunter, and gunmaker. He's patented the .500JRH, a .500 caliber 1.3 inch cartridge, based on the S&W .500 case, but, it will fit into a normal revolver. Jack Huntington is the man's name.

http://www.jrhgunmaker.com/

Now Jack, and Gary Reeder are the two gunsmiths that I KNOW hunt, and, do as much as they can.
While with proper placement, the 440 grain LFN has dropped 1200 plus pound bison in their tracks:


Jack has had just as much success using a 440 grain, 500 caliber bullet at 1000 fps. He's also said the hardest hit he's ever scene on bison was with a 525 grain, .510 Caliber, Linebaugh Maxium flatnose, at 1100 fps. Effect equal to a 375 H&H rifle. Considering Jack has a double, flanged 375 H&H, and a double .450 Nitro Express 2, and he's used both on bison and asian buffalo, he's not just guessing on this. If that doesn't work, they have a .500 Nitro Express double around the shop, as well. He's told me he thinks the slower the bullet goes, on these very large game animals, the more effective it is. This observation applies to HANDGUNS, since no handgun will develop enough velocity to create hydrodynamic shock, in a Cape Buffalo, Bison, or Asian Buffalo, size animals.

His theory is bullet size, and SURFACE AREA, are vital components of incapacitiation, in game hunting. It's sort of the same argument I've scene here, that given a .458 bullet, by far the most effective is the 500 grain bullet, nearly regardless of velocity, but, different.
By moving slowly, none of the arguments previously discussed, really apply. The bullet area, and LACK of temporary wound cavity, create nerve trauma, over a longer period of time, then a much faster bullet. Also, due to the SURFACE AREA of the bullet, more nerves are effected, directly, and, for a longer period of time. Such trauma affects the animal in a different, but still VERY effective way. With very large game, the penetration of such a large, slow moving bullet, is far superior to the .45 Colt/454, and
can go well over 4 feet of buffalo. Jack is SO convinced of this combination, he's going to Africa next year to take a cape buffalo with his 440 grain, .500JRH, at 1000 fps, out of a Magnum Research Revolver.

Accurate shot placement is obviously a key. A shot in the ass of a 6 ton elephant, even with 50 inches of penetration, is still not going to do more then send the elephant moving, in one direction or another.

GS

To be more specific: perhaps there is more way to create the bang flop situation then previously suggested, and, the problem may be we are trying to make a bipolar dilema out of a multi-solution problem?

I don't think that anybody here maintains that only kinetic energy kills. It's well known that the wounds do kill slow or fast, and injure. However, examining bullet wounds can only tell a portion of the story. It can't tell exactly what happened to the kinetic energy release at the moment the bullet stroke animal tissue. The only way to tell is by being "shot" on the body with the bullet from a high-power rifle.

But I would not be surprised to know that when a high-speed and heavy enough projectile hits an animal's body, the shock (thump) from the bullet strike if felt at a distance from the wound. If one just slowly pushes a stiletto or a needle into flesh, only pain is felt. If one does the same to a still pool of water, hardly any ripples are created. But drop a pebble in the same pool, and you will see the ripples moving outward from the point of impact.

A large meteorite that hits the earth not only leaves a crater (wound), but the tremors are felt at a long distance. When one slaps another hard enough with one's hand, kinetic energy is also at work; not only the skin (outer surface) turns black and blue, but the flesh underneath. The force of an explosion can kill bystanders without leaving external wounds. One can move hardened objects such as gongs with bullets fired from guns, and even billiard balls by striking them with each other. All of these examples exemplify kinetic energy in action.

An explosion can crush you, a human fist can damage your internal organs, an automobile can hit a moose and kill it without breaking its hide, and one can soften-up a mango by hitting it with one's hand (without breaking the peel or skin) and then drink the soft pulp from it. All of these are examples of kinetic energy taking place. We do know that there is a shock wave surrounding fast moving projectiles, aircraft, and automobiles, and that these waves can push whatever is in front of the object, can push away whatever is by the sides, and can "suck" forward (draft) whatever is behind.

Again, a wound by itself can kill; we all know that. But what we don't know is what takes place when kinetic energy is released on an animal's body when the bullet hits, regardless of how many dead people's wounds are examined.

Ray: Good point. Just for reference, bullet weight is a real good way to increase kenetic energy.
If I take that 525 grain bullet, and move it up to 1550, I get about a 2600 ft-lbs of kenetic energy.
While I don't subscribe to kenetic energy in this scenario, it is intresting that these slow, large/huge bullets do have a ton, literally, or more, even at relatively slow velocities, of energy.
This certainly makes for an intresting scenerio, since something like the .223 comes in around 1100 ft-pounds...

S

quote:

Originally posted by Ray:
...Again, a wound by itself can kill; we all know that. But what we don't know is what takes place when kinetic energy is released on an animal's body when the bullet hits, regardless of how many dead people's wounds are examined.

Hey Ray, That is exactly correct.

Quite obvious to me the reason the frackler/alf crew have no clue is quite simple - a severe lack of first-hand experience, coupled with the inability to learn from those who do.

Fackler was a hire FBI patasy to cover up the FBIs screw ups in the Miami shoot out. The FBI screwed up in tactics, piss poor shooting.

Then they tried to blame it it on one bullet. Maybe if they hadn't missed the 100 plus other times.

But what good has come out of it is that we have better selfdefense bullets. That have made good defense rounds out of most handguns. One has to remember that many of these bullets are designed for people and well not give the desired penatration on game.

A bullet that gets into the lungs and fragments well kill game very fast. The trick is to get into the lungs. On side to side shots that is fairly simple on the harder angles or through bone ect it gets harder to do.

The more meat and bone one has to drive it through the tougher the bullet has to be.

I belive that is way the Nolser partion is so popular is that it nose fragments while the base drives through.

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
Ray: Good point. Just for reference, bullet weight is a real good way to increase kenetic energy.
If I take that 525 grain bullet, and move it up to 1550, I get about a 2600 ft-lbs of kenetic energy.
While I don't subscribe to kenetic energy in this scenario, it is intresting that these slow, large/huge bullets do have a ton, literally, or more, even at relatively slow velocities, of energy.
This certainly makes for an intresting scenerio, since something like the .223 comes in around 1100 ft-pounds...

S

Thanks.

Yes, heavy bullets can maintain their momentum and plow forward. Also, because they are moving slower, expansion if any takes place later, which in turn allows for deeper penetration.

That's why a 286-grain bullet fired from a 9.3x62, a 250 to 300-grain bulled fired from a .338-06, or a bullet of similar weight from a .35 Whelen work so well on game within 200 yards. A heavy handgun bullet does the same on humans at much closer ranges.

But going back to deaths from shock, lets keep in mind that baseball balls from fast pitches (over 60 MPH) can stop the heart of a young man that has been hit on the chest near the sternum (in front of the heart). In this case there are no wounds, except for what I imagine trauma to body tissue. And yes, a doctor can say that the ball hitting the chest made the heart suddenly move in the direction of the impact, and that would be true; but again, for that to happen kinetic energy must be involved.

I don't know if anybody here has seen a "bang-flop" (SCA) from a kid being hit on the chest by a hard ball, but I have heard of some.

I hit a Caribou at about 275 yards with my 7mm Weatherby. I took out his front shoulder blew out his lungs and blew the top of heart out. He just crumbled in the snow.

To let you all know these bullets are still available in limited numbers.

RUSH YOUR MONEY ORDERS NOW

Posted 07 May 2005 02:48
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Now for you big bore fans want to use your 458 lott for P dogs? Well the NANO bullet is just for you. Shoot 45 cal nano bullet at a P dog it turn itself into 224 cal fast expanding hollow point.

Now I know the question that you all want to ask is how I get some of these Perfect bullets. They are not cheap but they are perfect. Wait.

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110 BS Way
BS City 58945

Do not forget if any of these products fail you all you have to do is prove it and your money well be refunded.
Posts: 3582 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001

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I've read all this with some interest and should resist the impulse to get involved but I won't. I have had some experience with animal wounds after practicing Veterinary Medicine for 40 years. I've seen them from bullets and from vehicles. A 4000# car at 40 mph will make a large energy transfer relatively quickly. I think the transfer is somewhat analagous to Alf's cue ball and egg. I've never seen a dog win- a few draws but never a win.
I've had a bunch of bang flops on Impala and other African game and one I particularly remember on a coyote. On the impala I was using a 9.3x62 with Nosler partition 286 gr @2230fps. Several of the shots were quartering from the left rear. I can remember seeing the skin on the right side bulge ouward enormously but there was no exit wound. Several were side to side chest shots with significant exit wounds. All these animal were dead dead and never moved after they fell except for muscle fasculations. I did not do detailed post mortem examinations but I did look as they were butchered and the damage was significant to the heart and lungs:disruption of the heart chambers or pulmonary vessels and alveolar structure. There was also significant damage to the liver on the cross abdomen shots. The coyote was shot at 210 yds with a 264 Win Mag and 140 gr Win PP. The animal dropped and never moved. There was no exit wound. It was a 40# female so nasty I didn't want to open her.
Conversly I shot a Wart Hog right in the thoracic inlet and he turned and ran 40 yds. I did a post mortem on him and he was shot from thoracic inlet to the medial side of the thigh in the pelvis. The heart was removed from the great vessels ventrally and the lungs were completely hemorrhagic. The liver ceased to exist in pieces larger than my fingertip.
I learned not to worship at th alter of velocity and that bullet placement was the most important factor. None of these animal had any demonsterable CNS involvement or damage.
In the aforementioned FBI shootings the first shot severed the pulmonary artery of the guy who did most of the damage but he walked around shooting for 4 minutes. I guess he didn't know he was dead.
Alf, I admire your knowledge and factual approach. You obviously have the experience in several fields. The problem is there is no discussion with someone who's mind is already made up.
When I was a young man a friend was working in an ER in a rough town. On Friday night a large black man walked in complaining of a headache. The examining physician noticed his forehead was bruised and there were 6 lumps on his neck. The lumps were 25 cal bullets. His girlfriend had shot him in the forehead 6 times at very close range while he was sleeping and never penetrated his skull. Maybe that's a better example of your cue ball and cue ball.

I remember Herter well and I'd love some of those NANO bullets. I'd love to had a PANGA bullet when I was last in RSA. The brush messed up several shots but I'm sure if I had a PANGA bullet to bust up the thorn bushes I'd have hit everything cleanly.

doc just send the cash they well be on the way shortly. You really should send 350 for a lb of nano powder also.

But remember a lb of nano powder well load 50 or 60 plus nano bullets you should by at least 100

So the total price would be 7850 plus shipping lets call it 8000. and I'll throw in some super nano bullets also.

quote:

What explains the "bang flop" phenomena

NOTHING. THERE IS NO EXPLANATION. ONLY SPECULATION AND THEORY. END OF STORY.

Of course a shoulder/spine/brain shot is exempt. That shouldn't need any explanation.

I heard Spock say as much upon return from the Delta Quadrant once. There are points after which logic is illogical.

Live long and prosper.

It's the "WHOOMP" you hear when they are hit right. if they don't make the right sound they don't fall down. Has something to do with proper internal resonance. Kinda like letting enough light in to be toxic to tissue.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Duc:
It's the "WHOOMP" you hear when they are hit right. if they don't make the right sound they don't fall down. Has something to do with proper internal resonance. Kinda like letting enough light in to be toxic to tissue.

Not exactly. What i am talking about is the dissipation of kinetic energy.

If you go back and read my post, I said that the force of an explosion can crush your body. I was not talking about the powder in a bullet, but lets say...a 500-pound bomb dropped nearby. The crushing can occur if one is not ejected by the explosion taking place.

Cue balls do not show damage, simply because they are made of materials that resist deformation. But even so they transfer energy to each other, to the table, to the stick, etc. But cue balls are not totally inflexible.

quote:

The final one and this really beats me is the analogy of the stone dropped into water and the wave action that it produces. Absolutely there is no denying that it happens cause why ? Water is a pure fluid and non compressable in it's fluid phase. So the water is displaced by the stone penetrating and that wave is progated because the water cannot compress.

My analogy related to kinetic energy: one objet moving and colliding with another. This force is always present, even if the masses being hit by the rock is water. Both water and air offer drag. Of course water is being displaced too.

quote:

If you drop the same stone on to a piece of steak ( muscle) does that show waves? There will be deformation because stress causes strain in solids which will redbound once the stress is taken away cause the steak is elastic.

Of course there will be waves if the rock hits the steak hard enough. But these waves won't be discernible to the human eye, and perhaps will never reach the number of waves in the water. The same thing happens when a meteorite hits earth, except that since these waves are so large, one can feel the tremors or shaking of the ground. These waves can be measured, too.

Ray,
My tongue was firmly in my cheek. However one thing that nobody had mentioned or I may have missed in haste is the appliction of force over time and area. If a dog bites you it will be a lot more destructive to the tissue because of the surface area of the tooth than if you applied the same force with a plate of say 10 square inches.
But Doc is correct. There will be no resolution of this question here. There has been a lot of very good data put out by very qualified folks.
I've said my last on it.

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