Reloader,

To add to the fire please allow me to mention a post from JJ at the 24-hour campfire: he mentioned that he was sighting a rifle, and that all of the sudden a small bird that happened to fly over the target dropped dead when he fired his rifle. It seems that the shock created by the bullet as it reached the target also hit the bird killing it. There was not a mark on the bird, it just dropped dead.

I certainly believe that kinetic energy dissipates as the bullet travels through the air, and this action creates a shock way along the way, much like when one drops a stone on a pool. This shock wave could very well kill an animal by disrupting the function of vital organs such as the lungs and heart, and may very well explain the jellied blood and flesh on animals hilled with high-power rifles.

In other words, even if kinetic energy by itself does not kill, the result of kinetic energy (shock) can very well do it.

I once saw a bird fall ot of the sky when a stick was pointed at it and the guy yelled bang. Was this caused by a shock wave??
It was quite a bizzare event.I always figured the bird had a heart attack at that very instant,just a coicident

Whittail Deer in Northern Michigan:
30-06 with 180 Remington CoreLokts 7 down and dead with
one shot each.

348 Winchester: 200 Silvertip used 5 which ice-picked
200 Cor Lokt same deer down with one shot
and died within seconds.

338 WinMag: 210 gr Power Points down at shot but required
final finisher.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
I once saw a bird fall ot of the sky when a stick was pointed at it and the guy yelled bang. Was this caused by a shock wave??
It was quite a bizzare event.I always figured the bird had a heart attack at that very instant,just a coicident

Maybe coincidence, but a stick of dynamite can kill fish a distance from the explosion. Maybe from the shock, I would think.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
I once saw a bird fall ot of the sky when a stick was pointed at it and the guy yelled bang. Was this caused by a shock wave??
It was quite a bizzare event.I always figured the bird had a heart attack at that very instant,just a coicident

Maybe coincidence, but a stick of dynamite can kill fish a distance from the explosion. Maybe from the shock, I would think.

I have seen fish rolled up ( killed) from a steam hammer driving piling in 60 feet of water( no explosion,no water ripples),but never in deep water. I am not sure what this has to do with bullets and animals,water is denser than air and sound also carries better in water than air.

quote:

I have seen fish rolled up ( killed) from a steam hammer driving piling in 60 feet of water( no explosion,no water ripples),but never in deep water. I am not sure what this has to do with bullets and animals,water is denser than air and sound also carries better in water than air.

It is comparative because the body does have water content in it's make-up. Less dense materials react to shock as well. Even ballistic gel reacts to shockwaves.

Reloader

quote:

Reloader,

To add to the fire please allow me to mention a post from JJ at the 24-hour campfire: he mentioned that he was sighting a rifle, and that all of the sudden a small bird that happened to fly over the target dropped dead when he fired his rifle. It seems that the shock created by the bullet as it reached the target also hit the bird killing it. There was not a mark on the bird, it just dropped dead.

Ray, ever seen a small game animal barely missed w/ a high powered centerfire? Many times it will kill the varmint w/o entering it's body. It takes an extremely close impact to do this. One that comes to mind is a squirrel that was shot at w/ a 30-06, squirrel fell to the ground from the tree and upon inspection had no apparent wounds. Heart attack? I think not, the shockwave from the very close impact killed him.

Have a good one.

Reloader

As has been mentioned several times, one certain cause of 'bang - flop' is a shot placement with direct CNS involvement (C-spine/brain).
Another less well known phenomina, is one involving the Aorta. It has been observed, in humans, that a shot placed here, will often result in 'bang - flop', possibly due to a pressure spike in the blood flow to the brain.
I see no real reason why this might not also include other mammals of similar size.
I must admit that I have only observed this once in a deer, where the shot was placed a tad low for an ideal shoulder shot, but destroyed the Arch of the Aorta, dropping the deer on the spot, without even a twitch.
I have not been able to duplicate the shot, so this remains , to me at least, merely a theory, which may or may not be repeatable in the real world.
Has anyone else observed this?

BTW, the round involved was a factory 7x57R Norma 154gr SP, range was 75m, nominal velocity was 2450fps.

/

Alf, so it's not the pressure spike, rather the drop in pressure following the spike, which results in the LOC/collapse?

/

As far as I can remember all of my bang flops were high shoulder shots taking out the CNS. The strangest one that I had was a 6 pointer running away from me. He went down and walked up to him and he still kind of lively so I slit his throat. What took him down was a hole through his nuts. What do you call that shock wave?

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
SAMBAR 9.3

The precise method by which pressure waves damage tissue is actually more complex than this.

Potentially noxious waves are not Sinusidal as we see with acoustic waves, they have to take on the form of a shock wave in water. Ie high positive amplitude wave with a very rapid ( steep ) rise time and exponential drop off to ambient pressure. There is a small rarefaction phase ( negative pressure0 wave that follows.

The damage happens when these waves hit tissue interphases between tissues with differing acoustic impedances.

The wave can be reflected back into the medium or can be transmitted, if transmitted it is often weakened.

It is the reflexion of the wave at the interphase which now takes on a negative pressure amplitude and the gradient between negative and positive pressure causes the damage.

Ok, it's official. You've lost me! I got to the bit about, oh well, never mind. I had simply surmised that the effect might be a variation on the theme of the old martial arts drill of delivering a kick to the inside of the leg (compressing the femoral artery), and rendering a man unconcious for a short period of time, with the animal exsanguinating during the period of unconciousness.
Oh well, it was an interesting theory.....

quote:

Originally posted by Dwight:
As far as I can remember all of my bang flops were high shoulder shots taking out the CNS. The strangest one that I had was a 6 pointer running away from me. He went down and walked up to him and he still kind of lively so I slit his throat. What took him down was a hole through his nuts. What do you call that shock wave?

I'm pretty sure if I was shot in the nuts, I would fall down too! And I'd probably be grateful if someone came up and cut my throat!

Here are some interesting scientific experiment of shock waves from firearms. Note that you can click on the photos to enlarge them:
http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/a...d/48547/page/5#48792

And another one:
http://www.fluidmech.net/gallery/shocks/s_proj.htm

I have witnessed many alg (moose) killed,dropped with one shot in Sweden and Finland Several with 6.5x55 and 9.3x57.
Simple men,simple rifles. Good shots!!!
Shot placement is the key!!!!

Ray,

Great read.

Another actual test proven to show that "Hydro-Shock" is not a myth.



Have a Good One

Reloader

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:
Ray,

Great read.

Another actual test proven to show that "Hydro-Shock" is not a myth.



Have a Good One

Reloader

Reloader: There are some ongoing studies on injury to human tissue from the sound waves used to remove kidney stones. So I certainly believe that any shock wave has the potential for injuring or killing animals. In fact dolphins stun fish with the sounds they make. Have you seen the sonar distance measuring devises used to measure a room? I have one of these, and it uses two watch type batteries. If someone points it at you and presses the button, the sound wave hits you with a cracking sound that can be painful. It should make a great dog repellent, I imagine. This sort of sound wave devise, but very large in size, is being used at crew ships to repel pirates. Supposedly the pulsating sound emitted by the devise is unbearable. One of these was used to repel some pirates near Africa about three months ago. This is one study of many relating to damage to kidneys and surrounding organs of humans:

http://anatomy.iupui.edu/lithotripsy/swlpath.html

The article is very interesting since one would think that such small sound wave should be harmless, but it's not.

No Ray, I haven't seen that type of measuring device yet, sounds really interresting though. The only little devices I 've seen were lasers.

I'm still using the good ole' tape on alot of my jobs. Luckily our CAD file are pretty accurate as well.

Have a Good One

Reloader

/

Alf, I think the proper question for this thread is:

Does the bullet being tested create a shock wave of enough force/energy to damage tissue or disrupt nervous function.

This shock wave may or may not manifest itself as a temporary cavity, though the same processes lead to each. A true shock wave will move much faster than the tissue itself, meaning the shock wave is past when the cavity is expanding. This is simple physics.

At some point the shock wave will be able to damage tissue. High order concussions from military explosives can easily kill without a single fragment damaging tissue. At a lower level they can incapacitate (stun grenade, anyone?), and at lower still (smaller bang or farther away) are mere fireworks giving a nice show and thump in the chest. Again, this is well understood and proven.

Sooo, I answer my question with a reserved yes, at modern rifle velocities, an expanding bullet creates enough of a shock wave to destroy tissue near the bullet path and disrupt/stun tissue farther from it. Exact values for all vary considerably (many variables, well expounded about here and elsewhere), but the basic phenomina is just that. The shock wave stuns the nervous system causing the animal to flop, and it bleeds out before being able to get up.

Hmmm, I do not subscribe to the shock theory at all. Firstly, the shock waves associated with transonic flight on a bullet do not carry into tissue. Upon entering a different medium(flesh) the speed of sound increases dramatically. Flesh is mostly water and a few "fillers"...Google 'speed of sound in water' and you get:

"Water (distilled) 1498 m/s, Water (sea) 1531 m/s"

Those values exceed most if not all bullet velocities from sporting arms at around 5000 fps. Your supersonic bullet...ain't, not after is hits your quarry. In anycase, the pressure differential in sonic shocks is not a great value, usually less than 1 pound/foot^2.

Secondly, the energy propagates inversely by the square root on a plane, by the cube root in a spherical context. Bullets strike with the same force you feel on the butt of your rifle, less the effects of drag(the old action/reaction problem). In a real sense there is vicious tissue distruction local to the wound channel, this due to several factors detailed in the link below, but the effects of this do not travel far, otherwise you'd have your entire quarry bloodshot.

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html

That is all I have to say on the subject.

DD, fair call, I'm not sure, but I think people might be referring to the localized effect (as you mentioned) rather than a general, large scale effect.
As I said, the only way I know for sure to get a 'bang - flop' is to directly involve the targets CNS. The other stuff, well I have seen some spectacular kills in the field, even got one puzzling one myself, as mentioned, but the only repeatable way I know is direct CNS involvement.
Still this is a very interesting thread, and has already put at least one theory of mine to rest.

.

DD,

Are you saying that you don't believe that a very fast expansive bullet impacts a large shock upon surrounding tissue upon impact? Have you ever seen someone shoot such bullets into fruit? Ever read the studies on the harmful effects of shock as a bullet impacts tissue? It's proven facts. Look at the link Ray has above, it touches very breifly on bullet impact shock and also has a photo of a 22 bullet passing through fruit.

Like I said in an earlier thread, if you've ever seen a deer that was shot w/ a very fast varmint type bullet, you'll see first hand what shock can do. Many times it can totally destroy all organs in the animals body cavity. I've opened deer that had nothing but mush for organs. Internal organs are made up of very soft tissue and are very easy to destroy.

Have a Good One

Reloader

.

More on shock wave: In the link below, everything relating to wound, CNS, etc. from bullets is explained, as well as "shock."
http://www.madogre.com/Interviews/Magic_Bullets.htm

quote:

Now to understand what happens next, you have to have a little understanding of fluid dynamics. Have you ever watched a fast boat? What follows the boat? The wake. The wake is the essentially the boat's slow motion shockwave of displacement of water across the surface as the boat passes through it. The same thing happens with a rifle round, but much much faster. Water can not be compressed. Water does react though... it's pushed out and away, and then it is sucked back to fill the vacuum. Tissue is essentially water. Water that is held together in the collection of cells we call tissue. The shockwave from a rifle shot moves so fast and so hard that it literally shatters the cellular walls. The result is that in the area around the rifle hit, the tissue is pretty much transformed into jelly. The higher the power of the rifle the greater that cavitation damage. The shape of the rifle's bullet of course also plays an effect, just like the shape of a boat's hull. This shockwave can also disrupt the neural network through and around the body of the creature that has been shot.

.

quote:

Are you saying that you don't believe that a very fast expansive bullet impacts a large shock upon surrounding tissue upon impact?

No, nor to I think that transmission of energy is the sole domain of "very fast expansive" bullets. All projectiles transmit energy. My comments above are in context with the comments about sonic shock waves made previously. Upon entry into the quarry the bullets enter a medium whereupon they are sub-sonic. Do consider what I said about the 'action-reaction' matter. I think upon reflection you might look at your thunderstick with less awe, and perhaps at bullets with more respect.

I think most 'bang-flops' are the result of CNS disruption by resulting from primary or secondary projectiles. CNS disruption does not have to be traumatic in the sense that it is physically disrupted. Close impact(to the neural net) may in fact transmit a stunning shock that will immobilize an animal long enough for bleed out to occur. Too, I think the world of terminal ballistics is as much black art as science. The list of variables is long enough to reach Mars. Spoken in words much more lucid than my own is the treatment of the field in the link I posted above. It is a LONG read however, and it is tempting to skim...major mistake to do that IMO.

Everyone has their own theories.

I personanlly know that shock kills, everyone else can believe whatever they want.

I don't know why many of you don't just hunt w/ FMJs

Ya'll have a good one

Reloader

.

If the effects of "hydrostatic shock", "hydro-shock", "kinetic energy transfer", and "shock waves" were demonstrable, measurable, and predictable wouldn't bang-flops happen every time?

.

quote:

If the effects of "hydrostatic shock", "hydro-shock", "kinetic energy transfer", and "shock waves" were demonstrable, measurable, and predictable wouldn't bang-flops happen every time?

No, because the varibles aren't the same under every circustances. For instance: Bullet velocity upon impact, Bullet construction, place of entry, size of animal, angle of animal, etc etc etc.....

Hydro shock plays a roll in soft tissue damage. That's a fact.

You all can believe whatever you want to. I've killed and seen killed 100s and 100s of animals, I do believe I've seen alittle of what shock can do under certain instances.

Alf, Your example of the TS doesn't fly w/ me. Even though they expand they do far less damage than other bullets(say an SST). Not to say they don't kill but, they don't rupture the organs as fast expanders do.

Alf, I highly recommend that you go varminting sometime. Take a 220 Swift and load some Vmaxes. Oh yeah, take some XXXs too. We want to see photos of the varmints after wards, that is if you find enough parts of the ones hit w/ the Vmaxes .


Oh and Alf, why don't you explain one of my bang flops from just November: Large Buck Hit through the middle 5-6" below bottom of spine. Bullet was a fast NBT. At shot Buck flopped over then a couple of seconds later he tried to stand up but, could only move his front hoofs. That lasted about a second and he was dead. Upon very close examination the bullet made mush of the internals (mainly liver, lungs, and intestines ) and no piece or particle of the bullet touched the spine.

What paralized that buck? Shock

What totally disrupted the organs? Shock as well as the bullets fragments

By the way that bullet exited and kept going.

Alf, your long messages have varied quite a bit in theory it seems and at times opposed each other. It seems you disagree w/ everyone.

Let the flames burn.

You clearly will not agree w/ me on anything so lets' agree to disagree.

Ya'll have a good one

Reloader

.

Alf!

I know how strict you are in using the correct terminolgy and definitions in your posts here and I applaud you for that. By the way no one shoots gophers. Gophers are nocturnal below ground animals that s varmit hunter is extremely unlikely to encounter. What you call gophers are either ground squirrels or praire dogs.

Sorry AlF, I couldn't resist!



465H&H

.

Lets remember one thing when we talk about how shock or cavitation affects the internal organs of an animal. A solid thump delivered to the chest of a human being in the right location is enough to stop the heart. It can also start it pumping again via CPR. It may not even cause permanent damage. Granted it's fairly rare but it can happen.

Quote by Alf

quote:

As an African everything small and furry that has incisors bigger than it's canines is a " goafer" or maybe not

As an American any serious wound damage is caused by "shock" or maybe not!



465H&H