I read with interest the discussion on kinetic energy and wounds and agreed with most of what was said. I don't think it tells the whole story, however. It was noted that:

"Consider the often lauded "dropped in his tracks." It sounds impressive, but does not tell us anything about wounding ballistics. We have been taught to think that "down is dead," when down means only down. We think cute buzzwords like "dead right there" are meaningful, when they are absolutely not particularly meaningful or predictable. We place great value on our own experiences, yet our experiences (or wishful recollections of them) are statistically meaningless. We have been taught to worship at the altar of velocity, and think that shooting into newspapers or clay is directly comparable to living tissue with circulation and a rib cage. We are only fooling ourselves, and we have had a lot of help from ad copy and anecdotal evidence to support our self-deception."

I would be interested in knowing how many have experience the "bang flop" phenomena while hunting with details such as cartridge/gun used, the animal species taken and especially the experience of bow hunters (in this case it will be called the "twang flop" phenomena). I'm only interested in big game animals that have been hit in the heart or lungs, that were down within down within 5 seconds and did not at any time go more than a body length from where they were initially hit.

Under these conditions, I've experienced the bang flop phenomenen 6 times that I can remember:

1. Impala with a 375 H&H Magnum at 80 yards.
2. Blesbok with a 375 H&H Magnum at 80 yards.
3. Whitetail deer 100 yards with a 308 Win.
4. Whitetail deer 15 yards with a 308 Win.
5. Whitetail deer 15 yards with a 308 Win.
6. Whitetail deer 360 yards with a 22-250 Rem.

I would think that with all of the experience represented on this board, that perhaps a significant trend could be seen. I will also hypothesize the the bang flop occurs rarely or never with bows and rarely with handguns shooting bullets at less than 1,500 fps. I'm not ready to predict with shotguns since the hole made is massive and should cause profuse bleeding. I also think the species shot makes a big difference with soft skinned deer and antelope to be the most likely candidates for a bang flop result. I doubt it ever happens with buffalo and probably seldom with pigs.

Almost all the ones I've seen go "bang-flop" have been Central Nervous System hits or near hits. I've done it several times: wt doe, approx 50 yards - 25-06 on the shoulder; wt spike, approx 10 yrds - 6 mm Rem on the bridge of the nose; wt fork horn approx 20 yrds - 12 gauge slug stern to stem (very impressive); wild hog, approx 45 yards - .308 Win right behind the ears - went down right there but needed finishing shot between the eyes; wild hog, approx 70 yards - .308 Win just behind the shoulder - severed spine.

Most "bang-flops" you see on TV are high shoulder shots where they hit the spine as it drops down a bit.

I've had several but these are the ones I remember right off hand.

1. WT Doe - 50 yds - 243 win
2. WT Doe - 35 yds - 300 win mag
3. Pronghorn - 307 yds - 22-250
4. Impala - 75 yds - 300 win mag
5. Warthog - 20 yds - 300 win mag

I've see deer shot in the body "Bang Flop" with:
6mm 85gr Nosler Partition from a 6mmRem
25cal 100gr partition from a 26-06
130gr partition from a 270Winchester
various 30 caliber bullets from 30-30 and 30-06
200gr from a 338Win
300 & 400gr from a 45-70

I've also seen deer FAIL to "bang flop"
when shot with most of the above as well...Even deer with fist sized exit holes from fast moving 30caliber bullets from a 30-06 atleast managed to start running, though made it less than 20yards with a exit hole I could put my fist into.

Personally I think I've been fortunate in that I've never had a deer go more than about 100-120yards
and that deer was shot with a BRI sabot slug that made a 50caliber through and through that decimated the lungs...

And the internal dammage was not visibly different between the two groups of animals...

I've even seen a deer go 40+ yards after a shot from almost directly above (with anoter sabot slug at MABER as far as 20feet...) removed 6" of spine and damn near eviscerated the deer, the deer went that distance on it's front legs only dragging it's disconnected rear legs and might have gone further if it hadn't gotten tangled in it's intestines... it was messy...

So I've gotta say that I don't believe that there is any predicting what the animal is going to do when shot...
Unless you hit them in the brain or spine far enough forward to interrupt the cardio-vascular system
or disconnect their front legs from the equasion...

OR you destroy the heart or blood supply to the brain...


AllanD

This would just be a guess by me based upon what I have seen, i.e. I have shot deer that have not taken one step. Boom. Down. And have shot other deer in the same place that have run and then died.

I think it may have much to do with hormone bursts.

I've read, but can't recall where, that this has to do with timing of breathing. If the animal has just inhaled when hit, it's probably going to run a bit. If it has exhaled, it'll likely be a bang-flop. Of course, this applies to body shots only. Any CNS hit will drop things real quick.

Yes it is much too difficult to explain away many phenomena. The only true dead on the spot I can remember is when I hit a small 2pt mulie right in the head. There wasn't a brain cell left. Many have dropped on the spot when hit but still had some dying quivers, but I don't think that mulie ever knew what hit him.

I get bang flops all the time when culling does...and bucks as well during my regular hunts. There is recent research that supports the captain's argument regarding where in the breathing cycle the animal is with respect to the bang flop theory. Naturally, you can't tell where the animal is in the breathing cycle unless you look ever so closely, but there is creedence to his theory per some research conducted about 2 years ago. I have seen it myself...with the same well placed shot, some will flop, others will run off or stumble off and then flop. I seem to remember that they concluded that fully inhaled deer flopped because the hydrostatic shock was greater on a fully expanded lung than a "flat" one. Yeah, I know the lungs are never totally flat...just speaking in relative terms here. It does not seem to be caliber specific...I have seen it work just as many times with my 257 Roberts as my 300 RUM. Although I will admit that the 300 RUM does have a greater incidence of bang flops but I can imagine why, can you?

quote:

I doubt it ever happens with buffalo and probably seldom with pigs.

One of the best bang flops I've seen was with a 260 lbs. hog shot by another poster on this board who goes by the name Rattlesnaker. He shot the hog in the neck with a .357 lever action at about 10 yards and it was game over. Although I never cut it up myself I'd imagine the bullet broke the spine and that's why but I can still picture it just collapsing righ in front of me. Gotta love it when that happens!

About half of the WT deer I've shot have been down in one step or less. I've been able to detect few patterns, fast expanding bullets like Ballistic tips do it more, hitting the shoulder on entry does it more, and does do it more than bucks. The calibers with enough personal kills to evaluate are .280 Rem and 300WSM. Most are dead by the time I can walk to them. I've never needed a second shot to finish a deer, though some have run a good 150 yards well hit.

From that I gather that the 'flop' is trauma induced shock and the animal bleeds out quickly. Hormonal bucks are tougher and more likely to run. Softer bullets and major bone trauma cause more shock (rapid energy transfer) and put them down.

I've had bang flops with white tails and the 7mm. I think it has a little to do with them being unaware I was there. They were relaxed and didn't know it was coming. I always shoot for the lungs by the way-so it wasn't a CNS thing. The ones I've spooked before shooting are all jazzed up and ready to run. The most impressive was a moose at 12 yards with a 30-06 frontal shot to the head just below the antlers. I've never seen anything drop so quickly, all there was was a huge crash.

the chef

I am fortunate in that I live in good hog country and take lots of them when they are working the area. This gives me a good basis for wringing out bullet performance.

Most of my bang-flops have been with bullets with a high sectional density and launched at medium velocity. And, I prefer a slightly high shoulder shot, which generally takes out the top of the lungs and is close enough to the spine that the shock results in immediate incapacitation. At one point, I had a string of 27 hogs that dropped in their tracks to 6.5mm, 140 grainers at ranges that stretched from 40 yards to just over 250 yards.

I also had a string of 20+ with a Savage 10 FP-LE2 in .308 Winchester that was just snapped. A mild load -- the 150 grain Ballistic Tip at 2780 fps -- is what I use in it. And while this bullet does not have the high SD of the 6.5mm/140, it does have the same modest velocity in common. My string came to a halt last week when I took an offhand shot at 55 yards and hit a little low, taking out the top of the heart and some major plumbing before exiting in front of the opposite shoulder (2" exit thanks to secondary bone fragments). The 140 pound sow managed to make 40 yards before giving up the ghost and left a huge blood trail for the first 20 yards.

And for those who think the .30 caliber, 150 grain BT is a fragile bullet, I also took a double last week. The sow was app. 80 yards away; the boar was perhaps 15 feet behind her. The sow dropped on the spot while the boar, hit app. mid-ribs, made app. 15 yards before falling. Then entry on the boar was app. .40 caliber while the exit was nearly the same. The back of the lungs and a portion of the liver had significant damage.

I must add that I did not intend to turn the 150 grain BT load into a hog thumper, but it just worked out that way. After noting the effectivness of the load during a nuisance hog culling effort (the hogs in this instance were 80-150 pounds), I decided to stick with it -- and I am glad I did.

But back to the subject at hand: The are many factors that come into play with bang-flops. But the keys are shot placement and a bullet that imparts significant momentum (moderate velocity) in addition to destroying tissue and imparting shock. For me, that recipe is a 6.5mm, 140 grain bullet (I am currently using the Sierra GameKing) at 2600-2750 fps MV. But I have also used a wildcat in which the 140 grain Hornady SSTs were moving at a mere 2420 fps, and I got the same type of effectiveness. In fact, game generally just crumples at the shot.

Eben Brown (www.eabco.com) has noted the same type of effectiveness with the high SD/moderate velocity cartridges. In fact, a few years ago he
introduced the 6.5mm, 7mm and .300 Bench Rest Magnum series of cartridges. Check out his site and see some of the testimonials and results.

quote:

I would think that with all of the experience represented on this board, that perhaps a significant trend could be seen. I will also hypothesize the the bang flop occurs rarely or never with bows and rarely with handguns shooting bullets at less than 1,500 fps.

I have experienced the bag flops with both a bow and arrow and with the handgun.The bow hit was in the neck and death was imediate.I have experienced it a few times with large bore revolvers,once with a load that only chrongraph 1120 fps,it was a chest hit with a 500 Linebaugh and a 525 grain bullet.

There are two distinct possibilities. The first, as has been previously mentioned is a hit to the brain or spinal cord. The second would be to hit a nerve plexus, such as the scapular plexus. This will cause unconsiousness, and before the animal can wake up, it dies, thus bang/flop.
Those of you who have ever boxed might know of one such plexus in humans, the solar plexus (base of the sternum). When hit there, you can go out like a light.

Thus far, no posters have claimed a bang flop kill with a lower velocity handgun (1,500 fps or less) or a twang flop kill with a bow. If you exclude shots to the nervous system, all bang flop kills have been with a high velocity rifle or in one case a massive wound with a shotgun.

I believe the post about kinetic energy to be correct in many respects but... It doesn't mention what species were studied. Observations about deer, don't necessarily apply to humans, etc. I do believe that the ultimate cause of death is bleeding but in many cases, it's nice to have the animal on the ground right where you shoot it and that this will only happen with a high velocity projectile if you exclude central nervous system shots.

Except in the case of a massive wound relative to animal size I don't think bleeding is the cause. A change in hormone level is also too slow to explain it. I believe the cause is a shock wave that hits a vulnerable part of the nervous system without direct contact of the projectile with the nervous system. It probably doesn't really kill the animal immediately but puts the animal on the ground immediately and then bleeding takes it's toll. By the time the hunter arrives on the scene, the animal has taken or is taking its last breaths.

The hit doesn't necessairly have to be near the spine. There are other nerve centers in the region of the heart and lungs that could be vulnerable. From martial arts training, I know that blows to certain pressure points can incapacitate an attacker. A precordial thump (blow with a fist on the chest) can also start a heart that has stopped. There are also cases of kids hit in the chest with a baseball that die suddenly from a heart rhythm problem also known as ventricular fibrillation.

My conclusion; there IS an advantage to velocity and kinetic energy though I don't necessairly worship at that altar. I would agree though that in most cases, bleeding is the ultimate cause of death.

When I was much younger.
All these never walked and when gutted usually both lungs, heart and liver where mush. Ripped apart by the cavitation would be my guess. All where also grazing and had no clue they where about to recieve lightning. I think that along with velocity results in the bag flop. Now I would never recommend a 22-250 for deer not enough room for error with 22 cal.

Whitetail buck 125 yards 22-250
Whitetail doe 80 yards 22-250
Whitetail doe 65 yards 22-250

I think the round was 65 grain hollowpoint.
That gun was lighting on small East Texas whitetail. Would recommend it today but I was young once.

quote:

Posted Jun 3, 4:43 AM
By Grumulkin
Thus far, no posters have claimed a bang flop kill with a lower velocity handgun (1,500 fps or less) or a twang flop kill with a bow. If you exclude shots to the nervous system, all bang flop kills have been with a high velocity rifle or in one case a massive wound with a shotgun.

Did you miss my post above 525 grain at 1120 fps out of a 500 Linebaugh one shot low behind the shoulder and through the chest one of the most spectacular bang flops that I ever witnessed

Over the years the wife and I have shot dozens of antelope and I'd say nearly half were bang-flops. We use 270 with 130 or 140 Hornadys around 3000 FPS. It seems to me that if the animal is unaware that you are there and the bullet strikes right into the lungs, mid to high placement, they just flop.

Interesting though, two years ago we got a triple, 3 quick shots 3 bang flops. the range was just at 400yds so maybe they were still trying to deside what to do when it was all over.

I've had quite a few bang flops on deer, again they seemed unaware and the hit was spot on. Best one a whitetail buck that literally dropped in his tracks. Legs folded up under him, nose slamed down into the snow, not a wiggle.

I think high to middle lung shots seem to produce more instant kills for me with the 270. I suspect that with deer and antelope this may rupture the aorta and cause an instant loss of blood presure as well as destroying the lungs.

On elk I've seen a couple of bang-flops, both with a 270 with lung hits. The animals seemed unaware and the 150gr Partitions were placed right through the lungs. As I recall the shoulder was hit on one of them.

With my 35 Whelen I've gotten a number of "bang-stagger-flop" or "stiffen-step-flop" reactions where the animal went 5 to 10 yds. The best being a eland bull that traveled less than 10 yds total, he was hit high in the lungs.

I avoid head or neck shots as the target area is so small. I've also seen a few deer run off with half their head missing when friends tried to kill a doe "without damaging any meat".

My general impression is that high velocity rounds, like my 270, with realtively fragile bullets, like the Hornadys, given good shot placement are more likely to produce "bang-flops" on deer sized game. I think that the incidence of bang-flop seems to go down with larger animals for the same reason a 22 LR is splater on gophers but really marginal on coyotes.

1969 Mt Goat, 300 yrds est. Heart/lung .270 win 130 gr. Nosler part. (old style).
1970 Mule Deer, 100 yrds est. heart/lung .270 win 130 gr. Nosler part. (old style).
1980 Mule Deer, 20yrds est.heart/lung .45/70 400 gr. paper patched pure lead.
1982 Blacktail Deer, 75 yrds est. full front heart/lung. .257 Roberts, 100 gr. Nosler part.
1983 Blacktail Deer, 5 yrds est. quartering flank/lung/neck. .257 Roberts,100gr. Nosler part
1985 Roosevelt Elk, 20yrds est. heart/lung .45/70 400 gr. Speer
1987 Blacktail deer, 20 yrds est.heart/lung .300 Savage factory load 150? (borrowed rifle.
1992 Blacktailed Deer, 10 yrds est.
heart/lung 7mm mag 140gr. Nosler Bal tip. (Destroyed half of the deer).
1998 blacktail deer, 30yrds est. heart/lung, .257 Roberts, 100 gr. Nosler part.

I don't think there is any hard and fast rule. To me the "Bang-Flop" does not include game that lunges and falls, spins aroung or stays on its feet at all after the shot. In my experience instant death is more often caused as others have stated by frangible bullets at high velocity. I also have seen several "Bang-Flops" with premium bullets straight through both shoulders.

To go along with jwp475's comment I did shoot a caribou bull lengthwise with a 325 gr. LBT from a 454 Casull at 1250 fps that caused one of the most dramatic kills I've ever seen with no CNS involvement or bones broken at all. Go figure!

I think instant death is fairly common in my experience until you get to really big animals like moose, Cape buffalo etc. I also think we should most often be armed with equipment that will let us take a shot from most any angle rather than what causes instant death on a striaght through lung shot.

Mark

I do not know why it hapens..........but I have shot about 15 whitetails with my 35 whelen using 250 grain round nose bullets. I have hit them in the lungs, through the shoulders, dead on facing me & quatering away. All but one has dropped exactly where it stood. Straight down. The lone exception being a doe I shot this year. She faced me at 120 yards & i had to shoot off hand. I hit her a bit to the side & into one lung. She went 20 yards.

My 7600 35 whelen has become my "bang flop" rifle of choice for bear & whitetail hunting.

Perhaps none of you have seen the Tree Lounge promo video in which Margaret hits a whitetail buck in the spine and it drops like a rock? Bang/flop has much more to do with where the bullet strikes than it does with velocity or bullet mass. A deer hit in the spine forward of the shoulder will drop in its tracks, whether it is hit with an arrow or a bullet from a .357 magnum. The same thing is true if it is hit in a nerve plexus, except that if the arrow does not penetrate the scapula and do internal damage, the deer might get up some seconds later and run away.

Several years ago, Jim Carmichel did an article on this. There was some research done in Africa during a buffalo cull, that found that the animals that were DRT, were hit as the heart was taking in blood, and the shock of the hit overloaded and ruptured the capillaries in the brain due to a great, and instantaneous increase in blood pressure. Sounded reasonable enough to me.
I shot a small doe last year at about 20 yrds. It ran another 30 or so before it expired. Where I live we hunt with slugs, you don't get much more frontal area/ hydrostatic shock than that. Some go down, some don't.

All the bang flops I have seen were CNS hits or neck shots.

Bang flops to me have more to do with shot selections.

I have not had an animal run in years, but I have been able to take rest and put it where I have aimed.

The best was a spike buck at 20 yards with a .44 mag. The Ruger Redhawk was leaning on the inside of my leg and the squeeze was so slow that I saw the deer drop before I heard the report.

Next was with a .340 Roy on a black bear at 40 yards. Anchored him on the first shot, fell straight down on all fours.

I have done it with 7rm, .340Roy, and a .44 mag HG. This leads me to believe it is all about the shot.

Some shots where spine shots others were heart lung.

I've dropped dozens of whitetails on the spot. Most of which were impacts that hit the CNS or close enough to them for the shock to paralize them long enough they were dead before they recovered.

The only trend I've noticed is that the faster expansive cartridges tend to have many more "bang-flops" than the slower cartridges. Due to pure internal damaged imparted by the high velocity expansive slugs (IE a 30-30 w/ a 150 sp @ 2300fps to the lungs does far less damage than the same bullet from a 300WM @ 3300fps).

The biggest animal I've seen a bang-flop on in person w/o a spine impact was a 500lb boar. Can't explain that one, the huge boars usually take lead like nothing happened but that big rascal fell at impact w/ a behind the shoulder hit from a 7RM.

I've seen several other big boars and one Bull elk dropped in their tracks but, they were from spine hits.

I don't think you can reasonably expect the big animals to drop dead as you can expect small deer sized animals to drop. Unless of course you were shooting them w/ a big cart. like the 50BMG.

The only "twang-flops" I've had were from spine hits(between the shoulder blades).



Good Luck

Reloader

.

I have seen lots of animals shot in the spine or within 4" of it drop on the spot.

I have only seen one that was hit in the center of the chest drop right away. That was from a 300 Win Mag at 35 yards with a Hornady SST bullet. The bullet went into the lungs and lodged in the far shoulder. It did massive damge to the heart/lungs and then broke the far leg.

I dont care what you shoot or how fast it goes, I think that massive energy transfer will drop game in it's tracks. It is however very uncommon to cause this much damage with a straight heart/lung shot. Most of the energy in the bullet is lost when it penetrates throug the deer and out the other side. When all of the energy from a bullet goes into the game and the bullet stays inside the animal or barely exits you get more internal damage (from higher enrgy transfer). This can be accomplished by a high velocity rifle with a fragile projectile (Nos BT) or a slower rifle with a large bore and soft bullet. If you cause engouh damage it's going to drop. Mostly because the CNS is damaged, through a huge drop in blood pressure, or one of the main bones in the body is broken.

Shattered bones are usually so painful they cause the brain to shut down to block the pain. The animal dies from blood loss before it can "wake up".

elkhunter wrote:

quote:

Most of the energy in the bullet is lost when it penetrates throug the deer and out the other side. When all of the energy from a bullet goes into the game and the bullet stays inside the animal or barely exits you get more internal damage (from higher enrgy transfer). This can be accomplished by a high velocity rifle with a fragile projectile (Nos BT) or a slower rifle with a large bore and soft bullet.

The above bullet types are causing massive meat damage, you should add to this incorrect statement of yours above!

quote:

Consider that IF we can recover a bullet that does not directly hit bone on a broadside shot on an animal, that bullet is possibly marginal when we do have to hit bone, or if a quartering away shot that requires more penetration is taken. A bullet that reliably exits the animal, aside from the resultant blood trail, is the better penetrating bullet.

Here is why -

quote:

Serious misunderstanding has been generated by looking upon "kinetic energy transfer" from projectile to tissue as a mechanism of injury. In spite of data to the contrary (1, 63), many assume that the amount of "kinetic energy deposit" in the body by a projectile is a measure of damage (2-5, 36, 37, 40). Such opinions ignore the direct interaction of projectile and tissue that is the crux of wound ballistics.

Read this thread as well.

I have 5 bang-flops and one twang-flop. Four bang-flops were on whitetail deer using Brenneke slugs and the fifth using a 45 Colt. It's like they were hit with a wrecking ball... None of the 4 even took another step. Just instant incapacitation. I have one twang-flop on a whitetail deer also. The arrow entered right below the spine, deflected and rode right along the spine, exited at the base of the neck, re-entered the neck, and back out at the base of the skull. Damndest thing I ever saw!!! Instant kill.

quote:

The arrow entered right below the spine, deflected and rode right along the spine, exited at the base of the neck, re-entered the neck, and back out at the base of the skull. Damndest thing I ever saw!!! Instant kill.

Yep, that's pretty amazing.

I hunt w/ a relative that shot a doe behind the shoulder and through the neck all in one shot. It so happened that she turned her neck back to her side and the Muzzy got her twice.

I got a twang flop last season and hit her twice as well. She was looking right at me from below and apparently moved her head a little when I released. That arrow went through the side of her face under her ear and hit inbetween the shoulders, through the spine and into the lungs(needless to say she fell right there).

Reloader

Here's your answer to the "band-flop" phenomenon - a study on REAL deer.

South Carolina DNR Game Study

In the mid-1990s, Charles Ruth of the South Carolina Department of Natural Resources conducted a study of whitetail deer killed on a 4500 acre intensively managed hunting area owned by the Cedar Knoll Club on the South Carolina coastal plain. The terrain varied, but included swampland and very thick brush. All deer were killed with centerfire rifles using telescopic sights by hunters sitting in elevated stands. The sample size is such that definite trends are apparent.

A total of 493 deer were killed in 602 shots, for a one-shot success rate of 81.9 %. Of these 305 were antlered, requiring 375 shots (81.3 %) to kill, and 188 were antlerless, requiring 227 shots (82.8 %), indicating that there was no significant difference between the kill rates for these two populations.

Roughly half of the deer shot (253 of 493, or 51.3 %) traveled less than 3 yards after being hit or simply dropped in their tracks. Of the instant incapacitation kills, 87.7 % (222/253) were definitely attributable to spinal or shoulder shots. Hit location is not known for the remaining 31 kills. Among the known hit locations, the mean distance traveled for clear spinal hits (52/222, or 23.4 %) was less than 1 yard. For shots that struck the shoulder (170/222, or 76.6 %), the mean distance traveled was 3 yards. Since the scapula lies directly over the neck / back junction it would be all but impossible to hit the shoulder without causing a paralyzing trauma to the spine (despite not directly damaging it) and the probability of causing serious trauma directly to the spine would be very high.

Roughly half the deer shot (240 of 493, or 48.7 %) ran a significant distance after being hit. Nearly all of these deer (221/240 or 92.1 %) were found dead; however 19 were discovered to be still alive, suffering from inadequate wounds (shot in the abdomen, legs, neck, etc.) and dispatched (a trained tracking dog was required to locate all of these deer). The distance traveled for those found dead was recorded, but no record was attempted for those which remained living since they pursued evasive paths in their escape. The mean distance traveled by deer that ran when hit (neglecting the 19) was 59 yards. No shot placement is known for 16 of the 240 kills that ran when hit. Those hit in the heart (14/224, or 6.3 %) traveled an average of 39 yards, those hit in the lungs (152/224, or 67.9 %) ran an average of 50 yards, and those struck in the abdomen (presumably hitting an artery or the liver, as opposed to only stomach and intestines) (58/224, or 25.9 %) ran an average of 69 yards.

Although no cross-correlation is available between trailing sign and hit location, most of the deer (155/240, or 64.6 %) left a good blood trail and traveled a mean distance of 46 yards, permitting easy recovery. A further quarter of those that ran (61/240, or 25.4 %) left relatively poor sign, little or no blood at the point where the deer was hit by the bullet, and only a weak blood trail that in many instances had to be found by the dog. These deer traveled an average of 83 yards. Five of those that ran (2.1 %) gave no indication that they had been hit by the bullet, left no sign whatsoever, and traveled an average distance of 152 yards; yet each was discovered dead.

Some information is known regarding the weapon used in 444 of the 493 kills. The weapons used are grouped by caliber against the mean distance traveled for all kills (including instantaneous kills). In general, trends by caliber are weak, as might be expected. However, there are differences that must be considered significant, statistically speaking (if in no other sense). The smallest bore, .243 (6 mm) caliber, accounted for 10.8 % (48/444) of the documented kills, with an average distance traveled of 40 yards. This compares with 31 yards for .277 caliber (84/444, or 18.9 %), 26 yards for .284 (7 mm) caliber (160/444, or 36.0 %), and 33 yards for .308 caliber (116/444, or 26.1 %). Clearly, there is a slight increase in the mean travel distance for the .243 bore. Surprisingly, there is also a significant (statistically) difference between the .284 caliber and the .277 and .308 calibers, which are essentially the same. I am at a loss to explain this, particularly given the sample size. Even more striking is the case of the kills involving the .257 caliber, which make up only 8.1 % (36/444) and which have a mean travel distance of a mere 14 yards! Now to a certain extent this can be attributed to the small sample size. But it also clearly reflects some bias of behavior by the shooters or the weapons used in this caliber. Unfortunately, no further information is available on specific cartridges used or cross-correlations between calibers and hit locations.

The bullets used were loosely grouped into "soft" (e.g., Ballistic-Tip, Bronze Point, or light for caliber bullets) and "hard" (Partition, Grand Slam, X-Bullet, or heavy for caliber bullets) categories. There is a bit of a problem here because testing has demonstrated that the Nosler Partition is certainly not a hard bullet and produces very expansive wounds. Nevertheless, some trends are evident. Soft bullets, as defined, were used in 81.1 % of kills (360/444) and resulted in instantaneous kills 58 % of the time, with a mean travel distance (including instantaneous kills) of 27 yards. Hard bullets were used in 18.9 % of kills (84/444) and dropped the deer in its tracks only 40 % of the time, for a mean travel distance for all kills of 43 yards. Extracting the instantaneous kills from the total, the mean distances traveled by deer which ran when shot are 61 yards in the case of soft bullets and 70 yards for hard bullets. In other words, the soft bullets produced expansive wounds with a 50 % greater probability of dropping the game instantly, but if it ran the bigger wounds reduced the distance only by 13 %. Southern whitetails are not the appropriate game for the use of controlled expansion bullets. I have gotten complete penetration with Ballistic Tips on shots through the shoulder and spine at close range. Nothing more robust is called for.

Conclusions

Sex does not affect the toughness of deer

Bullet shot placement has a far more profound influence on terminal effect than does bullet caliber or style

Trauma to the spine anchors deer instantly; all other wounds allow some reaction

Deer shot well in the throracic cavity will drop within 50 yards or less, on average

Fully 1-in-4 deer will give little or no sign of being shot and will travel roughly twice as far as well hit deer

"Soft", expansive bullets are more likely to drop a deer instantly given a hit proximal to the spine, but only slightly reduce distances for deer that run

Is anyone reading this thread foolish enough to believe anything alf and jagter posted?

I'll go out on a(steel I-beam) limb and predict - no one!

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Hot Core,

I would believe what Jagter posted because what he posted is exactly how I feel about the issue. This business of dumping the energy in the animal means nothing in my experience. I deally I want an entrance and an exit with a good wound channel in between. I believe more frangilbe bullets kill quicker on light game with lung shot because of shrapnel and has little to do with energy, foot pounds or whatever.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Hot Core,

I would believe what Jagter posted because

Me Too..........

quote:

Southern whitetails are not the appropriate game for the use of controlled expansion bullets. I have gotten complete penetration with Ballistic Tips on shots through the shoulder and spine at close range. Nothing more robust is called for.

Unfortunately, the above quote shows some bias on the part of the writer. While the experiment seems to have some reasonably good data and conclusions, since this quote was not in the "conclusions" section is must be assumed to be the opinion of the writer. While I personally may agree or disagree with it, it certainly taints the article.

Jagter, while the 'energy dump' may not be a 100% correlation to tissue damage, I'll bet big money that, especially at modern rifle velocities with expanding bullets, it correlates pretty well. "Direct interaction of projectile and tissue" indeed...what the heck do you think is the physical mechanism of said energy transfer...???

Energy Drop means tissue damage. Tissue damage to the vital organs and blood vessels is what kills animals. If you look at the way that bullets are designed they measure the volume and length of the permanent wound cavaity created when they shoot a bullet into test medium. It doesn't matter if the bullet fragments and "shrapnel" causes the damage (as long as it pentrates far enough to reach the major organs). The damage is already done. Bullets that cause these types of wounds may be less reliable, but that doesn't mean they dont kill.

Shot angle, point of impact, type of game hunted etc... all have an effect on determining how tough a bullet must be to pentrate to the vitals and cause a large amount of damage. I'm not advocating BT's as the best bullet in all cases, or arguing whethter or not an exit wound is needed. Bullet design is an entirely new topic. I'm simply saying that if you do an extreme amount of damage to the vital organs (destyoying the heart and both lungs as well as other tissue) you "may" get an instant kill. I also think it is extremely rare for any animal to drop in it's tracks unless you hit the CNS or break a large bone.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
... This business of dumping the energy in the animal means nothing in my experience.

Hey Mark, As nice as I can say this, then you really don't understand what happens when a Bullet makes Impact. And (still as nice as I can say it) that is why you have been mislead by jagter's post.

quote:

Idealy I want an entrance and an exit with a good wound channel in between.

Me too. The "Wound Channel" is created by Bullet Energy being transfered to the things it makes contact with. And there is also an Energy Transfer due to a Sonic Wave imparted in the tissue, just the same as a Bullet moving along through the air with a Velocity above the speed of sound.

Without the Bullet's Kinetic Energy, there would be "no" Entrance and "no" Exit.

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I believe more frangible bullets kill quicker on light game with lung shots because of shrapnel and has little to do with energy, foot pounds or whatever...

You apparently did not take any Physics Classes. That is not intended as a "Put Down", so don't take it as such. Lots of folks are in the same situation as you, and they learn how it works.

I've also seen the results of Secondary Missle Fragments, but they are primarily Bone Shards or undigested hard particles(Acorns, Corn, Beans, etc) sent into motion as the Bullet passes through some portion of the digestive tract. Like a Cue Ball making Impact on the Break, Balls(Secondary Missle Fragments) scatter in all directions.

If a person is using a Bullet that "Fragments" on Big Game, they are simply using the wrong Bullet, or mistakenly identified it as being a Fragmenting Bullet. Using a real Fragmenting Bullet would only result in a nasty surface wound the vast majority of the time.

This is because a Fragmenting Bullet is Designed to come apart as quickly as possible expending ALL AVAILABLE Kinetic Energy to whatever it makes Impact with. A 22cal 50gr Speer "TNT" Bullet is an example of a Fragmenting Bullet.
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Bullet Energy is just one of the things that allows a Controlled Expansion Bullet to make "clean" Kills. Kinetic Energy(the Energy resident in the Bullet prior to Impact), Controlled Expansion Designs and Bullet Mass allows the Bullet to make those Exits that we both desire.

If you slow the Bullet down enough, say where the Bullet left the Barrel at 1 fps, the Kinetic Energy would be so low that it would not penetrate or even hurt your hand. Take a Bullet and have your Sweet E Pie toss it to you.

However, crank up the Velocity and the Energy available(for Transfer) is a factor of the Velocity Squared.

E = Energy
M = Mass (Weight in Pounds converted to Slugs)
V = Velocity

E = M*V*V
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When the Controlled Expansion Bullet makes Impact(within the "Design" Velocity Envelope) the shape of the Bullet Nose begins to change to a relatively Flat Profile.

If you look at the Temporary Cavity images(or create a mental image of them), you will notice a small (Bullet size) Entrance and then an immediate widening Conic shaped Cavity forming. This distending of the Innards(Southern technical term) creats all kinds of havoc with the normal flow of life due to amazing amounts of critical system(circulatory, breathing, etc) and organ damage. Like a balloon being stretched too far, things break.

As the Bullet continues along it's flight path, Energy is being lost(transfered to whatever is ahead of it) and this results in the remaining Bullet's Energy(Residual Kinetic Energy) being reduced. This is easily seen as the Conic Shaped Temporary Cavity begins to decrease in width around the CenterLine of Bullet flight through the Game.

And when things go well, there is enough Residual Kinetic Energy to allow the Flat Nosed Controlled Expansion Bullet to create an Exit. Thus creating two holes for the life to drain out.
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Now, if none of that makes any sense to you, print it out and go to one of your friends who has had some Physics. Show it to them and see what they have to say. Once you do, you will be able to laugh at the absolute foolishness and stupidity that alf, jagter and jwp475 believe in - just like the rest of us laugh at them.

I believe you have way too much going for you to be "duped" by these folks and I hope you understand the spirit of my post.

Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills to you.