I left Broadmouth Canyon the morning Jorge and his group arrived. I am sure Broadmouth their were on best behavior after my hunt and exposure, I mean slaughter, it’s not hunting. Long report, please be patient and read the following.

With any group of people, organization, or company you have a few bad apples. For self-preservation and integrity from time to time you have to weed the garden. With modern social media our passion and sport is under severe attack and fighting for its life. We cannot tolerate bad apples.
I am an older very successful retired professional hunter, outfitter, and worldwide hunter. Please excuse me for saying that but it’s just a way to say, “I have been there done that”, and qualified to observe fair chase hunting through a good lens and perspective. Please read the following and act to save our sport. You can imagine what will happen when the antis get a hold of this. Believe me, they will. This report is not about me, it’s about our future.
I booked a 3 Day elk hunt with Rulon Jones, Sept. 22-24 2016. and his outfit Broadmouth Canyon. I hesitate to call it a hunt as it was more like herding, terrorizing, yelling, screaming and shooting domestic cattle. Broadmouth Canyon is a 5000-acre high fence elk operation owned by Rulon Jones. 5000 acres is pushing it, 10 hunters were on top of each other. I recently booked an elk hunt and little did I know they book 20 hunters every 6 days. Rulon’s son stated they hunt from Aug thru Nov. Folks that’s 320 bulls. They kill so many trucked in elk, they collect the guts after gutting in a barrel, haul them out of the field, later placing them in a large trash bag and haul them off to a dump site so the next group of hunters don’t know of the carnage with all of the gut piles laying around. They tell the naïve hunters they are for bear bait if the truck is discovered. Chase, Rulon’s son, took me to the bear bait, a 55 gallon barrel where table scraps are placed. One of many lies to follow.
I requested their best guide, which turned out to be Rulon’s son Chase, who actually runs the operation. Rulon only rarely shows up and does not even talk to or acknowledges the hunters when he walks by. One day I accompanied a hunter who paid $70,000.00 to shoot a 490 bull. I turned to Chase, and said what’s this guy’s name, and he didn’t even know his name. Each hunter has a guide equipped with a radio. When you book a hunt you pay a base price and pay more on a sliding scale as your checkbook and choice dictate and they try to get you to upgrade. First morning, me and Chase see a bull he says will score 390 in the distance. I said let’s get a closer look and he responds that he does not like that bull and we stay put. You are not given time to examine the bulls but told ballpark of score and hurry up and shoot, as they are hoping for an upgrade. If I am going to pay $14000 to shoot a pet bull, I damn sure want to look at him first. One morning, four of us go out together on the atv. We are on the road and a bull is laying down 75 yards off the road looking right at us. Chase says he will score 420. We watch several minutes with atv running, let 2 people out and turn around and leave. The whole time the bull is still there thru all of the commotion. Upon leaving, I asked Chase how he judged the size with the bull looking right at us. He said, “Oh I know that bull, seen him several times”. I’m sure he has. If you want a bull that scores 396, no problem, they will show the picture of your bull, then tell you to sit right here and they drive him to you. That is what they did to me, and ironically every hunter got the exact size he ordered prior in his contract unless he succumbed to pressure to upgrade. They upload your bull into your pasture from another pasture and drive him to you. Do the math, where do that many bulls come from. I know that’s just hunting, just a coincidence, yeah right. They put hunters on ambush spots, Chase orchestrates all of the other guides from a vantage point.
They surround the elk on ATVs with 10 guides and slaughter commence via constant radio chatter with the other guides harassing and herding the bulls whooping and hollering like a bunch of wild Indians. Chase says the bulls went 50 yards this way, tells guide to go this way or that, wait-stop, no, go the other way with periodic interruptions with the guides saying what do you want me to do now. At first they try to be discreet but by the last day it’s a full scale rodeo with all of the guides whooping, hollering, harassing and chasing the bulls per radio instructions to sitting hunters in ambush locations. Rulon shows up last morning and the word from Chase is “brown is down”. Too much money at stake, they have to complete the slaughter and here comes Rulon walking up the canyons yelling “hey bull, hey bull” over and over, driving the elk to positioned hunters.
Their favorite method is to position hunters on the high fence in a pincher point, then drive the bulls to them along the fence. One day they positioned 3 of us together on an ambush point alone along the high fence then all the whooping and hollering begins. I am thinking how is going to work? I ask Chase how we are to decide and who shoots and who is to communicate? Each of us had paid for a different size bull so that’s why us three were together. Chase says this is going to happen fast. He will judge the bull and tell which hunter to shoot. No one shoots. We return to the Lodge early afternoon. One of the hunters says he wants to go back out. Chase says no, no one is available. At dinner that evening one of the hunters not in our group starts retelling his kill which Chase conducted after taking us three back to the lodge. Liars never learn, the truth always comes out.
After Rulon avoided the hunters the whole hunt, Chase tells me his dad has shown up to help glass on the last morning. Actually he is there to deliver the bulls preordered as needed. Chase tells me that morning Rulon has spotted a 490 bull and another hunter is going to shoot it and let’s go see what else is with that bull. So we go to a deep wooded canyon that dead ends into the high fence with only one way out is towards the hunter so they can drive the bull to him. It is so thick with trees the naive hunter cannot actually see what is happening. You hear a bugle; they say this is the 490 bull. Actually it’s Rulon and Chase signaling each other to begin the circus. A bugle “ok we’re in position” Another bugle “turn him loose”. This goes on several times back and forth. All the while the naïve hunter is excited. No bull shows up, another bugle to tell Rulon he has stopped, push him on out. Back and forth bugles between Rulon and the guides. Ironically this is the only bugling I hear in 3 days. You figure it out. It was Rulon signaling the guides. Finally, the 490 bull walks out going 90 degrees away. The excited hunter shoots and gets his bull. He is told they called the bull up when in fact he was driven from the thick brush in the corner. Chase turns to me and says there is a 420 bull that was with the 490, do I want to shoot him? You mean this unseen 420 bull just hangs behind for me to shoot throughout all this commotion, shooting and celebrating! Hey, it’s my lucky day. I say no, and Chase says a little girl is going to come shoot him. Let’s go. The girl, her father and the guide come walking up on the side of the mountain where we are sitting, pass us and get ready to shoot the bull as I am leaving. How do they just appear out of nowhere and know exactly where we are sitting like magic (gps and radio communication by guides). Not the first time showing for this movie, I have seen it before. This yet to be seen 420 bull is one patient SOB, hiding during the 490 bull’s slaughter, waiting for me to turn him down and another hunter to make the journey to shoot it. The bugling commences again signaling, turn him loose, the hunter is in position. The little girl gets her 420 bull.
I watch this slaughter and harassment until I am literally sick to my stomach. No I did not shoot a bull. I am a hunter. The last afternoon I try to be a gentlemen and say I am too sick to go out. I tell my wife who accompanied me, I will just keep my mouth shut, take my screwing and leave. Chase really pushes the issue as I am the last hunter not to shot a bull. Chase shows me a picture of a bull on his phone at the lodge, states he scores 396 and says how does this look. He says it’s no problem being sick, all I have to do is sit in one spot, no problem and the guides will drive him to me. Chase really pushes the issue because Rulon wants to make an extra $6000.00 upgrade to shoot the bull. They were so persistent I tell Chase to get Rulon, and we will have a conversation. I am really sick of my stomach by now and cannot take anymore.
We get together and I tell Rulon this is not hunting and more like professional wrestling and herding cattle. Throughout the hunt Chase and Rulon profess to being Christians. Upon my comment Rulon becomes belligerent, gets in my face, curses and all of a sudden he’s no longer a Christian. Not buying his bullying, I step up to the plate and put my face to his face. Boy, the look on his face, he is not used to this being a football player and celebrity. Many of the other hunters were equally disappointed, naive and or too embarrassed that they had made a mistake and conned to address the situation. Damn, the cook tells my wife the same thing happened on the last hunt. Really nice couple on the hunt, all of a sudden they are irate and the fireworks begin upon discovering the hoax. Hey, money trumps ethics for some folks.
Fellows believe what you want, but it’s time to weed the garden and preserve our sport and passion. It’s not about me. I have already got my screwing. Our sport is under siege. We will not survive conducting ourselves this way. Act now before the antis finish us off!

Their is another farm in Idaho where Bulls approach 400. It's shooting not hunting.

A taxidermist told me the total per year on that place is closer to 400. I didn't believe him. Now, after reading your number estimations, perhaps he is close?
I know a a guy who guides on a high fence ranch in Utah. His operation is more of an actual hunt as all the animals are turned loose on the property before the season starts and nothing new is added but it is still all "put and take". Most of the bulls are trucked in from Canada.
Sorry your experience was bad I thank you for telling your story.

Thank you Coyote for your post. I am waiting for all of the experts to call me liar. They are just like "Hillary", attack the messenger.

I think most folks know when they sign up what the deal is or they are real dumb.It really does not matter what you and I think.If some folks are happy with that.God bless them.

Caveat emptor



.

Don't think anyone's going to call you a liar, at least not me, but any particular reason as to why you waited to post this? You finished your hunt three days before we did. Must have been upsetting for you.

He who books a 3 day elk hunt is frequenting a prostitute. When it's over, it's too damn late to be indignant that she was a sure thing.

201k:
How about sharing what this screwing cost you
and how you paid for it.
IF by C/card, cancel the sob and let 'em try to collect. IF cash, you're mostly sol.

Thanks for this report, I wasn't aware such things take place.

George

Duh, three day hunt, high fence. Surely you didn't think it was a wild elk hunt.

Paragraphs are your friend a wall of text is not.

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
Duh, three day hunt, high fence. Surely you didn't think it was a wild elk hunt.

i don't think i would have a problem with hunting elk on 10,000 acres of high fence if it was one continuous fence and it was kept to one group per week-10days so you decide if your group is just yourself or your wife/kids, or 2-3 buddies joining you.

still wouldn't be "wild" but in 10,000 acres if set up properly you could still get a heck of a hunt.

the scenerio 201K was put into is just a lazy operator going for the quick cash

There are always two sides to every story. Links provided for your enjoyment. Particularly noteworthy (I think) are comments by "Hatari" (one of the other hunters in my party) on the second link.

our elk hunt

HIS elk hunt

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Don't think anyone's going to call you a liar, at least not me, but any particular reason as to why you waited to post this? You finished your hunt three days before we did. Must have been upsetting for you.

Exactly what I'm wondering. His post here, and on another forum (after lurking for years in his own words) and all of the sudden...... Makes one wonder, that's all.

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Don't think anyone's going to call you a liar, at least not me, but any particular reason as to why you waited to post this? You finished your hunt three days before we did. Must have been upsetting for you.

Exactly what I'm wondering. His post here, and on another forum (after lurking for years in his own words) and all of the sudden...... Makes one wonder, that's all.

And over on the Hornady ammo post, he says he's a PH. Just questions.

jorge, you guys ought to ask Rulon about this guy and get a name, and point him to his posts on this thread and others. Would be very interesting.

You want a DIY archery elk hunt that may take you 5 seasons or more to shoot a good bull then pursue that like I have. You want a high fence trophy rifle bull hunt then pursue that......like you did.

I don't understand this and I trust the other's accounts far more than a first time poster.

I've been on one high fence hunt and......it wasn't hunting. I was brand new to big game hunting and was extremely limited on time thus my naivety led me there. Anyone with as much experience can't have been naive, could he?

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
jorge, you guys ought to ask Rulon about this guy and get a name, and point him to his posts on this thread and others. Would be very interesting.

I might just do that. We'll see. Right now I'm prepping for this damned hurricane. Man how I dislike living in FLorida.

The lengthy negative report does smell...especially after Jorge posted his experience here and on 24hr Campfire.

There are legitimate issues and perceptions about High Fence Hunting. It is also legitimate that many in the outside world (and for sure the Anti hunting world) see this as fuel for the fire....

Of course 201k could be a Wolf in Sheeps clothing by trying to write such a negative narrative.

Caveat Emptor on high fence is true, but this is a VERY aggressive write up on the behavior and it simply doesn't jibe with their years of service and reputation.
I've visited with them at the shows. They were very honest and the truth is its a great way for many that may never have the ability or money to hunt for trophy Bulls in the back country...for people that can't wait 20 years for a tag In AZ or UT. For people that can't pay 20k+ to hunt on an Indian Reservation.
If you want the experience of being in some beautiful country and to "harvest" a 300+ (or much higher) Bull Elk and you know what you are paying for....

To each his own...

quote:

They surround the elk on ATVs with 10 guides and slaughter commence via constant radio chatter with the other guides harassing and herding the bulls whooping and hollering like a bunch of wild Indians.

It would be awesome to have at least ONE other witness to verify this.....also if Rulon himself or one of his guides would comment.

Idaho and Utah has weird hunting laws that allow game ranches, private elk ranching and land owner tags. Things that are not common in the region.

Utah's very competitive hunting climate I think breeds this kind of nonsense. My brother in law has drawn a good tag and work commitments kept him from hunting. He put the work in during the off season to scout, and was pretty sick that he ended up having to travel for work and missed the season. They live in Salt Lake are your typical Mormon family with 30 kids, and he works in IT for a Mormon owned IT company.

He and quite a few other Salt Lake folks have told me that the culture in Utah (at least in their circles) is totally centered around trophy hunting. It is not uncommon for those that can afford it to shell out $10,000-30,000 on either a hunt with Rulon or one of his competitors or a land owner tag for everyone in the family.

He thinks it creates a feeding frenzy on trophy deer and elk, allows for some illegal things to happen that shouldn't, and has lead to the game ranching scene to boom in the state.

I think that anyone that goes to a game ranch can expect that it won't be like hunting in the Bob Marshall. If you don't you are lying to yourself. If you can live with it, then great do it. I don't care either way.

If you can't live with it don't become the asshole that pays for love at the Moonlight Bunny Ranch and then is pissed when he has to see the doctor to cure his VD. You will get no sympathy from me, and the fact that you acted like you didn't know makes me think you are lying to yourself when you booked the hunt.

I don't even see the attraction of shooting an elk or anything else from behind a fence. If your too old or too feeble well that's your problem. Needing a 400+ elk without the ability to earn it (or anything else for that matter) seems to be bloodlust.

quote:

If your too old or too feeble well that's your problem.

Your time will come.

Other than a couple names it sure don't sound like the same outfit or hunt from here.

George

quote:

Originally posted by Colin Masters:
I don't even see the attraction of shooting an elk or anything else from behind a fence. If your too old or too feeble well that's your problem. Needing a 400+ elk without the ability to earn it (or anything else for that matter) seems to be bloodlust.

If yo don't care for it, then, here's a tip: DON'T GO.

It's an eight square mile area and the only fence I saw was going in or if you glassed you could see it at a distance. Although I'm 62, I run 3 miles/day and lift weights. At near 8K altitude, that terrain will challenge most folks.

Don't know you, but before painting with the broad brush you just smeared me and many here, I recommend you:

1. Look at my post, photos of terrain and my writeup, along with provided links to other guys that hunted.

2. Check out the website of the area

Jorge....the post you quoted doesn't even merit a response. Congrats on what looks and sounds like a great hunt.

I love it when someone alludes to the fact that it's not "real" hunting unless you climb 12k feet without boots and then spear your target.

Only an asshole would insinuate that because one is "feeble" for whatever reason (age, combat injury, chronic illness, etc.) you shouldn't hunt.

Thanks, Norton. Like I mentioned on another thread, there will ALWAYS be someone who gets sand in their mangina no matter what. Example, if you hunt Africa and I'm talking true wilderness, SOMEONE always bitches because we use a PH. IT is what it is. J

I apologize for the old and feeble comment, maybe that was a little much.

As for the "mangina" and "combat injury" and "Asshole" comments, maybe you should take yourself a little less seriously.

You don't know me either.

You had to know what you were getting into when you booked a 3 day high fence hunt guaranteed 400 bull..

Also he has the option of a wild elk hunt that is not fenced and on the same ranch and on Govt land, and its a big concession, and successful, but no 400 point bulls, they hardly exist in a fari chase elk hunt and if you are as experienced as you profess you knew that to begin with...

I don't doubt what you say is true, but I believe you had the option and chose the one you took, Is that not so?

Obviously there are widely varying opinions on the hunt. I was not there. I do not know. It does seem odd to guarantee success in a short time frame.

If one is lucky, they age. Some age more gracefully than others meaning medical issues cause some to have more difficulty than others. One thing is certain ,aging , gracefully or otherwise beats the alternative.

High fenced hunts are often painted with a broad brush here on AR. Yes, some are bad. No doubt. Others are very fair chase. I hunted on a high fence place that was over 40,000 acres with no internal fences. Was that fair chase ? It was to me. I was on a deer lease for 10 years that was 7,500 acres high fenced of the thickest nastiest stuff you have ever seen. Killing a big buck was not close to certain , hell seeing one was not certain. Was that fair chase? It was to me. All high fences are not the same.

Larry,
My how some members of AR have such a hard time determining whether they are shooters or hunters! The fiasco at Broadmouth Canyon Ranch, as described, may have been shooting or killing but it certainly was not hunting.
I will reference the Boone and Crockett Club and The Wildlife Society - the foremost association of professional wildlife biologists and managers in North America.
According to The Boone and Crockett Club FAIR CHASE in regards to regulated sport hunting is:
"the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any FREE RANGING, native North American big game animal in a manner that does give the hunter an improper advantage over such animals". Boone and Crockett further defines FREE RANGING as: "any native North American big game animal that is UNRESTRICTED within its biological home range, has adequate cover, and reasonable opportunity to elude the hunter."
So whether you shot at or killed an animal on 40,000 acres or 7500 acres of high fence property makes no difference - it was not unrestricted and thus not fair chase hunting! Your, or anybody else's subjective opinion, of what is fair chase does not matter. That's totally subjective and amounts to situational ethics. Just because one thinks it's fair chase does not make it such. If it's fenced, regardless of size, it's not UNRESTRICTED and thus not fair chase hunting. Case closed.

The Wildlife Society issued their final position statement on all this several years ago titled "Confinement of Wild Ungulates within High Fences" Some of the salient points:
1. Recognize the serious biological (diseases, genetic effects, etc.) and social (public versus private ownership of wildlife, ethics) issues associated with confinement of wild ungulates.
2. Oppose any additional conversion of the public's native wildlife to private ownership via high-fenced enclosures.
3. Oppose high-fenced enclosures, REGARDLESS OF SIZE, if they exclude free-ranging native wildlife from critical seasonal habitats or migration routes, or jeopardize the sustainability of free-ranging native wildlife.

From a personal standpoint I've hunted for 37 years in 18 different states, and six different countries. Never once could I bring myself to shoot any animal contained behind a high fence regardless of the size of the property. Even had the chance to go and shoot/kill in South Africa on a 100,000 plus acre property that was high fenced. Could not do it! I lived in Wyoming for 13 plus years and had a similar discussion with then Wyoming Game Fish Director of Wildlife, Harry Harju, PhD. Wildlife Biology.
He said it best, "They're shooters , not hunters.!"
For any AR members such as yourself who want to educate themselves as to whether they are shooters, killers, or hunters they can contact the Wildlife Society at:
5410 Grosvenor Lane
Bethesda, MD 20814-2144
email: tws@wildife.org
301-530-2471

That is YOUR opinion...

I think most of us AR members are quite capable of determining whether we are hunters or shooters.

I agree with Larry - we each have our own view and expectations of what fair chase hunting is and certainly do not require a B&C lecture. Referring to an individual that may hunt a restricted area as a shooter and not a hunter is a load of crap.

Since when does the existence of a fence absolutely restrict an animal's home range anyway? I have hunted species that will not leave the mountain or valley or rock outcropping they are found in - even when hunted hard they often circle around, back to their HOME RANGE which often can be less than a square mile.

I cannot accept your "holier than thou" edict that those of us that hunt ranches in South Africa or Texas or Utah are not hunters but just shooters...

And I am sure Mr Harry Harju, PhD. Wildlife Biology has extensive experience hunting on multiple continents for many species to back up his statement of ""They're shooters , not hunters!" - Yeah Right........

And while I would willingly refer to the Wildlife Society if I required scientific information on wildlife management, I am not interested in some scientist's opinion of whether I am a shooter, killer, or hunter!

quote:

Originally posted by Echoanne12:
Larry,
My how some members of AR have such a hard time determining whether they are shooters or hunters! The fiasco at Broadmouth Canyon Ranch, as described, may have been shooting or killing but it certainly was not hunting.
I will reference the Boone and Crockett Club and The Wildlife Society - the foremost association of professional wildlife biologists and managers in North America.
According to The Boone and Crockett Club FAIR CHASE in regards to regulated sport hunting is:
"the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any FREE RANGING, native North American big game animal in a manner that does give the hunter an improper advantage over such animals". Boone and Crockett further defines FREE RANGING as: "any native North American big game animal that is UNRESTRICTED within its biological home range, has adequate cover, and reasonable opportunity to elude the hunter."
So whether you shot at or killed an animal on 40,000 acres or 7500 acres of high fence property makes no difference - it was not unrestricted and thus not fair chase hunting! Your, or anybody else's subjective opinion, of what is fair chase does not matter. That's totally subjective and amounts to situational ethics. Just because one thinks it's fair chase does not make it such. If it's fenced, regardless of size, it's not UNRESTRICTED and thus not fair chase hunting. Case closed.

The Wildlife Society issued their final position statement on all this several years ago titled "Confinement of Wild Ungulates within High Fences" Some of the salient points:
1. Recognize the serious biological (diseases, genetic effects, etc.) and social (public versus private ownership of wildlife, ethics) issues associated with confinement of wild ungulates.
2. Oppose any additional conversion of the public's native wildlife to private ownership via high-fenced enclosures.
3. Oppose high-fenced enclosures, REGARDLESS OF SIZE, if they exclude free-ranging native wildlife from critical seasonal habitats or migration routes, or jeopardize the sustainability of free-ranging native wildlife.

From a personal standpoint I've hunted for 37 years in 18 different states, and six different countries. Never once could I bring myself to shoot any animal contained behind a high fence regardless of the size of the property. Even had the chance to go and shoot/kill in South Africa on a 100,000 plus acre property that was high fenced. Could not do it! I lived in Wyoming for 13 plus years and had a similar discussion with then Wyoming Game Fish Director of Wildlife, Harry Harju, PhD. Wildlife Biology.
He said it best, "They're shooters , not hunters.!"
For any AR members such as yourself who want to educate themselves as to whether they are shooters, killers, or hunters they can contact the Wildlife Society at:
5410 Grosvenor Lane
Bethesda, MD 20814-2144
email: tws@wildife.org
301-530-2471

Yup.

I do have to make an apology. I am under the weather and I made a mistatement. It was not 40,000 acres. It was 40 miles across. No internal fences .

Regardless of what any Ph.D. or club says , that was fair chase in my book. For whatever it is worth, I have gotten certain places in South Africa and refused to shoot based upon what I saw.


You are entitled to your opinion. I respect that. Just because I happen to differ from your opinion makes no difference to me.

For whatever it is worth, on the 7,500 acres I referred to above, not a single buck has been taken by 18 members in the first 4 weeks of bow season. Yup , it is not fair chase. It is really easy. The results clearly show that.

A week ago my son and I were in the Limpopo hunting. The property was 11,000 acres. My son put a bad shot on a Blue Wildebeest (too high). We tracked it 13 miles the first day and 6.5 miles the second day before catching up and finishing it. Following single drops of blood and one favored hoof print in circles for two days through the thick bush required ALL our HUNTING skills :-)

My son referred to it as the "Hunter's walk of Shame". His second shot was perfect LOL!

Scott and Larry,
Not my opinion - just fact from recognized authorities in the field of hunting much smarter than you or I! Larry, maybe I can recommend you drive about 90 miles southwest of your home in Orlando to Lecanto, Florida and "hunt" at a place called Ross Hammock Ranch. It is all of 1600 acres and advertises itself as "fair chase hunting". Pick out what you want to "hunt" from a menu. Hell they even advertise on their web site "fair chase hunting".
But at least I know that you two guys have more knowledge than the Boone and Crockett Club and The Wildlife Society. Keith Warren in Texas and Ted Nugent would be proud of you guys as are all the anti hunters who decry and publicize for their financial gain all the "merits" of high fence killing!

No thanks . I have 27,000 unfenced acres to hunt. I will stick with that.

You are out of line....
One's opinion and personal ethics do not hold dominion over an entire group.
When Roosevelt and others that founded B&C drafted such things, times were different.
Since you seem to be so enamoured with their "rules and definitions" then you must understand too that those rules are only germane to their "club" and their record book entries.
What Larry referred to had nothing to do with Ross Hammock.
You clearly must not have been on a truly large property that is fenced.
I hunt a plantation in South Georgia that I assure you it's fair chase much like Larry's comments. It is fenced solely for the purpose of management and poaching.
Regardless you are welcome to your opinion and you are welcome to NOT hunt behind a fence (no matter how small or large or for what reason)
But to pass judgement on everyone else when you are clearly ignorant of the realities of many such places...
Well...as they say in Florida... Go pound sand...

quote:

Originally posted by Echoanne12:
Scott and Larry,
Not my opinion - just fact from recognized authorities in the field of hunting much smarter than you or I! Larry, maybe I can recommend you drive about 90 miles southwest of your home in Orlando to Lecanto, Florida and "hunt" at a place called Ross Hammock Ranch. It is all of 1600 acres and advertises itself as "fair chase hunting". Pick out what you want to "hunt" from a menu. Hell they even advertise on their web site "fair chase hunting".
But at least I know that you two guys have more knowledge than the Boone and Crockett Club and The Wildlife Society. Keith Warren in Texas and Ted Nugent would be proud of you guys as are all the anti hunters who decry and publicize for their financial gain all the "merits" of high fence killing!

+1 Thank you Poyntman..

quote:

Originally posted by Poyntman:
You are out of line....
One's opinion and personal ethics do not hold dominion over an entire group.
When Roosevelt and others that founded B&C drafted such things, times were different.
Since you seem to be so enamoured with their "rules and definitions" then you must understand too that those rules are only germane to their "club" and their record book entries.
What Larry referred to had nothing to do with Ross Hammock.
You clearly must not have been on a truly large property that is fenced.
I hunt a plantation in South Georgia that I assure you it's fair chase much like Larry's comments. It is fenced solely for the purpose of management and poaching.
Regardless you are welcome to your opinion and you are welcome to NOT hunt behind a fence (no matter how small or large or for what reason)
But to pass judgement on everyone else when you are clearly ignorant of the realities of many such places...
Well...as they say in Florida... Go pound sand...

quote:

Originally posted by Echoanne12:
Scott and Larry,
Not my opinion - just fact from recognized authorities in the field of hunting much smarter than you or I! Larry, maybe I can recommend you drive about 90 miles southwest of your home in Orlando to Lecanto, Florida and "hunt" at a place called Ross Hammock Ranch. It is all of 1600 acres and advertises itself as "fair chase hunting". Pick out what you want to "hunt" from a menu. Hell they even advertise on their web site "fair chase hunting".
But at least I know that you two guys have more knowledge than the Boone and Crockett Club and The Wildlife Society. Keith Warren in Texas and Ted Nugent would be proud of you guys as are all the anti hunters who decry and publicize for their financial gain all the "merits" of high fence killing!

Scott,
Since when did making a poor shot on an animal contained behind a high fence and then taking two days to find the animal qualify as "fair chase hunting"? Is that really your definition of hunting - Fair Chase or not?

For example, every year the Arizona Game and Fish Department in their hunting regulations booklet publishes the definition of Fair Chase. It closely resembles what I've posted, what the B & C Club says, and what The Wildlife Society and other professionals trained in the field of wildlife management believe. It makes no mention of Fair Chase being associated with the time it takes to find a wounded animal. So is the Arizona Game and Fish Dept. wrong and you are right when it comes to what classifies as Fair Chase hunting?

Since when did the "if I believe it is then it must be" philosophy become the basis of forming one's opinion? If I believe the earth is flat and the moon is made of green cheese does that mean they are?

I'll stick with expert third party professionally trained wildlife managers to formulate my position on what constitutes Fair Chase hunting.

I've been on so called "large" high fence hunting ranches in Namibia and hunted right beside some in Texas. Never lowered myself to go on those places and attempt to shoot or kill animals. The only one that is ignorant is the guy who thinks he is "hunting" on a high fence property in south Georgia that is fenced soley for the purpose of reducing the chance of poaching.

As I said troll....pound sand....
You are quite the little Narcissist. Almost to the point of being impressive because you actually seem to believe yourself.
You are clearly simply trolling people at this point. I didn't mention that it is 6,000+ acres and I didn't mention one side is totally unfenced.
You know why these "experts" you seem to worship don't define "any" fenced place as "fair chase"? It's quite simple...many of them absolutely are fair chase but WHERE do you draw a definition? > 1,000 acres? 10,000?
Is it that NO animals within may be captive bred? Bred within a pen of "x" size? Species must be native to the area?
Doubt you would care because you are too busy being a narcissistic troll who's tiny reptilian brain thinks in simple black and white logical terms.
But, I guess it worked because I for one find your moralistic preaching and condemnation quite irritating...touché ....

quote:

Originally posted by Echoanne12:
Scott,
Since when did making a poor shot on an animal contained behind a high fence and then taking two days to find the animal qualify as "fair chase hunting"? Is that really your definition of hunting - Fair Chase or not?

For example, every year the Arizona Game and Fish Department in their hunting regulations booklet publishes the definition of Fair Chase. It closely resembles what I've posted, what the B & C Club says, and what The Wildlife Society and other professionals trained in the field of wildlife management believe. It makes no mention of Fair Chase being associated with the time it takes to find a wounded animal. So is the Arizona Game and Fish Dept. wrong and you are right when it comes to what classifies as Fair Chase hunting?

Since when did the "if I believe it is then it must be" philosophy become the basis of forming one's opinion? If I believe the earth is flat and the moon is made of green cheese does that mean they are?

I'll stick with expert third party professionally trained wildlife managers to formulate my position on what constitutes Fair Chase hunting.

I've been on so called "large" high fence hunting ranches in Namibia and hunted right beside some in Texas. Never lowered myself to go on those places and attempt to shoot or kill animals. The only one that is ignorant is the guy who thinks he is "hunting" on a high fence property in south Georgia that is fenced soley for the purpose of reducing the chance of poaching.