quote:

Once again, are you a shooter or a hunter?

quote:

Originally posted by Echoanne12:
Heym,
Are they hunters or shooters?

I only own one rifle. 264 WIN MAG shooting handloaded 140 GR Berger bullets.

"Be careful of the man who only owns one rifle - he probably knows how to use it!"

quote:

Originally posted by Echoanne12:
Heym,
You listed in your post that you are a member of RMEF. I just reviewed the RMEF website. I could not find any information on the RMEF website that they support or use funds to support or encourage the killing or shooting of wild free ranging elk behind high fence escape proof enclosures. If that is not the case please let me know where on the RMEF web site I can find that information.

quote:

Originally posted by Echoanne12:
Heym,
I agree with you. However the correct language should be, "Don't come back from a high fence shoot/kill and tell everyone you were hunting free range." Or fail to divulge that!

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by Echoanne12:
Heym,
Are they hunters or shooters?

I only own one rifle. 264 WIN MAG shooting handloaded 140 GR Berger bullets.

"Be careful of the man who only owns one rifle - he probably knows how to use it!"

I don't judge other hunters as long as they are following the laws and traditions of the area they are hunting...what may or may not constitute "real" hunting to me is of no significance as long as the hunter putting down his/her money is happy and had a good time. I only ask that they are truthful in what they participated in...i.e., don't come back from a fenced hunt and tell everyone you were hunting free range.

If a group of guys wants to go hunt a fenced property and smoke cigars and enjoy a nice meal around the fire at night...who are you or I to piss on their good time?

quote:

Originally posted by Echoanne12:
Poyntman,
You are so wrong. The guys associated with Roosevelt and others were against all of what you are claiming. Yes that was going on, that is why they came together in support of wildlife and developed the idea of Fair Chase. Ultimately the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation also came about because of their vision- not their waste of wildlife as you so eloquently describe.

The only dumbass is you who obviously has no accurate account of what happened from a historical standpoint!

Finally, I'm not demanding others conform to my ethics. Just stop and think about what they are doing when they go and kill animals, in this case elk, confined behind a high fence escape proof enclosure of 5000 acres like Broadmouth Canyon Ranch. As Harry Harju, Ph.D. Wildlife Biology, retired Director of the Wildlife Division at the Wyoming Game and Fish Department told me related to this subject, "They're shooters, not hunters." Are you a shooter or a hunter?

The fact remains, not my ethics or opinion, the anti hunters like The Fund For Animals and others, use examples of shooting and killing animals behind high fences as fund raising tools to try and stop ALL legal regulated sport hunting.

My point is don't go on a public forum (AR) and post, boast, try to explain, or support something that does not meet the definition of Fair Chase hunting. Even if you or others agree with shooting or killing animals behind a high fence the scientific facts are clear - confinement of hoofed ungulates in close proximity behind escape proof enclosures may lead to the spread and transmission of wildlife diseases such as CWD, brucellosis, and bacterial pheumonia to name just a few.

Since you seem to believe you know what has occurred historically do a google search of Clayton Williams versus The Wyoming Game and Fish Department. He tried to high fence his land in Wyoming and stock it with elk among other animals. This occurred in the late 1970's or 1980's. The state of Wyoming via The Wyoming Game and Fish Dept. would not allow this and Clayton Williams, the filthy rich guy from, you guessed it - Texas - sued the WGFD. He lost via the long standing doctrine of the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation that wildlife belongs to the public and his held in public trust for all the citizens of their respective state - not private individuals or private landowners such as Rulon Garnder at Broadmouth Canyon Ranch. That's one reason why you do not see that high fence bullshit in Wyoming to the extent you see it in Texas or Utah. There's a reason why so many Texans and others from all over North America come to Wyoming each year to hunt elk, antelope, and deer. Is it because, like Scott Powell, they can go to a high fence escape proof enclosed elk shoot of 5000 acres and expect to harvest a 360 class bull elk? Broadmouth Canyon Ranch?

If you think that is appropriate, realistic, or an example of hunting then you sir are face down in the coolaid!!

Once again, are you a shooter or a hunter?

quote:

Post

quote:

quote:

Originally posted by Echoanne12:

quote:

Post

quote:

I guess the truth hurts!

I keep waiting for anyone on AR to post a picture of the high fence which surrounds Broadmouoth Canyon Ranch. They guy who plans to shoot elk there next year, Scott Powell, refuses to do so!

quote:

Originally posted by Poyntman:

quote:

Originally posted by Echoanne12:
Poyntman,
You are so wrong. The guys associated with Roosevelt and others were against all of what you are claiming. Yes that was going on, that is why they came together in support of wildlife and developed the idea of Fair Chase. Ultimately the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation also came about because of their vision- not their waste of wildlife as you so eloquently describe.

The only dumbass is you who obviously has no accurate account of what happened from a historical standpoint!

Finally, I'm not demanding others conform to my ethics. Just stop and think about what they are doing when they go and kill animals, in this case elk, confined behind a high fence escape proof enclosure of 5000 acres like Broadmouth Canyon Ranch. As Harry Harju, Ph.D. Wildlife Biology, retired Director of the Wildlife Division at the Wyoming Game and Fish Department told me related to this subject, "They're shooters, not hunters." Are you a shooter or a hunter?

The fact remains, not my ethics or opinion, the anti hunters like The Fund For Animals and others, use examples of shooting and killing animals behind high fences as fund raising tools to try and stop ALL legal regulated sport hunting.

My point is don't go on a public forum (AR) and post, boast, try to explain, or support something that does not meet the definition of Fair Chase hunting. Even if you or others agree with shooting or killing animals behind a high fence the scientific facts are clear - confinement of hoofed ungulates in close proximity behind escape proof enclosures may lead to the spread and transmission of wildlife diseases such as CWD, brucellosis, and bacterial pheumonia to name just a few.

Since you seem to believe you know what has occurred historically do a google search of Clayton Williams versus The Wyoming Game and Fish Department. He tried to high fence his land in Wyoming and stock it with elk among other animals. This occurred in the late 1970's or 1980's. The state of Wyoming via The Wyoming Game and Fish Dept. would not allow this and Clayton Williams, the filthy rich guy from, you guessed it - Texas - sued the WGFD. He lost via the long standing doctrine of the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation that wildlife belongs to the public and his held in public trust for all the citizens of their respective state - not private individuals or private landowners such as Rulon Garnder at Broadmouth Canyon Ranch. That's one reason why you do not see that high fence bullshit in Wyoming to the extent you see it in Texas or Utah. There's a reason why so many Texans and others from all over North America come to Wyoming each year to hunt elk, antelope, and deer. Is it because, like Scott Powell, they can go to a high fence escape proof enclosed elk shoot of 5000 acres and expect to harvest a 360 class bull elk? Broadmouth Canyon Ranch?

If you think that is appropriate, realistic, or an example of hunting then you sir are face down in the coolaid!!

Once again, are you a shooter or a hunter?

Obviously you are the one who doesn't know the history Earl... I've read all of his books ( obviously you have not )
Roosevelt absolutely participated in ALL of those things. I think it's all great and if he didn't go into the Black Hills to hunt one of the Very last Bison on the planet and decide to save them...they would be gone today. It is these experiences that forever changed conservation.
The point is these guys had different ethics in a different time and they are clearly the linchpin on which you base your situational ethics (as you have stated several times)
Those Boone and Crockett guys practiced " if it's Brown, it's Down ! And if it flies it Dies!!"
You think different then you have not read their books from the time. You are correct that this did turn and form the modern North American Conservation model we all love today.
But...you are correct in many of your points...it's just that you are such a Sanctimonious Bastard your point is lost because you piss everyone off.

quote:

Well, here's some of that truth for you Earl. You're being a prick.

quote:

Originally posted by SDSpink:

quote:

Originally posted by Poyntman:

quote:

Originally posted by Echoanne12:
Poyntman,
You are so wrong. The guys associated with Roosevelt and others were against all of what you are claiming. Yes that was going on, that is why they came together in support of wildlife and developed the idea of Fair Chase. Ultimately the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation also came about because of their vision- not their waste of wildlife as you so eloquently describe.

The only dumbass is you who obviously has no accurate account of what happened from a historical standpoint!

Finally, I'm not demanding others conform to my ethics. Just stop and think about what they are doing when they go and kill animals, in this case elk, confined behind a high fence escape proof enclosure of 5000 acres like Broadmouth Canyon Ranch. As Harry Harju, Ph.D. Wildlife Biology, retired Director of the Wildlife Division at the Wyoming Game and Fish Department told me related to this subject, "They're shooters, not hunters." Are you a shooter or a hunter?

The fact remains, not my ethics or opinion, the anti hunters like The Fund For Animals and others, use examples of shooting and killing animals behind high fences as fund raising tools to try and stop ALL legal regulated sport hunting.

My point is don't go on a public forum (AR) and post, boast, try to explain, or support something that does not meet the definition of Fair Chase hunting. Even if you or others agree with shooting or killing animals behind a high fence the scientific facts are clear - confinement of hoofed ungulates in close proximity behind escape proof enclosures may lead to the spread and transmission of wildlife diseases such as CWD, brucellosis, and bacterial pheumonia to name just a few.

Since you seem to believe you know what has occurred historically do a google search of Clayton Williams versus The Wyoming Game and Fish Department. He tried to high fence his land in Wyoming and stock it with elk among other animals. This occurred in the late 1970's or 1980's. The state of Wyoming via The Wyoming Game and Fish Dept. would not allow this and Clayton Williams, the filthy rich guy from, you guessed it - Texas - sued the WGFD. He lost via the long standing doctrine of the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation that wildlife belongs to the public and his held in public trust for all the citizens of their respective state - not private individuals or private landowners such as Rulon Garnder at Broadmouth Canyon Ranch. That's one reason why you do not see that high fence bullshit in Wyoming to the extent you see it in Texas or Utah. There's a reason why so many Texans and others from all over North America come to Wyoming each year to hunt elk, antelope, and deer. Is it because, like Scott Powell, they can go to a high fence escape proof enclosed elk shoot of 5000 acres and expect to harvest a 360 class bull elk? Broadmouth Canyon Ranch?

If you think that is appropriate, realistic, or an example of hunting then you sir are face down in the coolaid!!

Once again, are you a shooter or a hunter?

Obviously you are the one who doesn't know the history Earl... I've read all of his books ( obviously you have not )
Roosevelt absolutely participated in ALL of those things. I think it's all great and if he didn't go into the Black Hills to hunt one of the Very last Bison on the planet and decide to save them...they would be gone today. It is these experiences that forever changed conservation.
The point is these guys had different ethics in a different time and they are clearly the linchpin on which you base your situational ethics (as you have stated several times)
Those Boone and Crockett guys practiced " if it's Brown, it's Down ! And if it flies it Dies!!"
You think different then you have not read their books from the time. You are correct that this did turn and form the modern North American Conservation model we all love today.
But...you are correct in many of your points...it's just that you are such a Sanctimonious Bastard your point is lost because you piss everyone off.

I have no intention on getting into any pissing match, but I do need some clarification. Didn't Roosevelt do his bison hunting in the Badlands of NORTH DAKOTA near present day Medora? That is a long, long ways from the Black Hills of South Dakota.

quote:

Poor ole Larry Shores,

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Poor ole Larry Shores,

LarryS isn't Larry Shores...in case you were confused.

quote:

Originally posted by Echoanne12:
Poor ole Larry Shores,

All the money in the world and he can't seem to buy himself an ounce of critical thinking skills!

My dad told me never to argue with a fool or you become one. Nevertheless here's my last attempt.

Larry - why is it that the Wyoming Game and Fish Dept. as well as the state of Wyoming refuses to allow any high fenced properties in Wyoming with native wildlife such as elk, deer or antelope enclosed within for the purpose of being shot?

Larry - Has the Rocky Mountain Elk Federation ever spent any money on or advocated for the building of high fenced escape proof enclosures for the containment of elk so that it's members or any others can go and shoot elk behind such enclosures?

Larry - why is it that America's foremost organization of scientists, managers, hunters, educators, technicians, and managers of wildlife populations (The Wildlife Society numbering 10,000 members and in existence since 1937) "oppose any additional conversion of the public's native wildlife to private ownership via high-fenced enclosures"? "Oppose high-fenced enclosures, REGARDLESS OF SIZE, if they exclude FREE-RANGING native wildlife from critical seasonal habitats or migration routes, or jeopardize the sustainability of FREE-RANGING native wildlife"?

Larry - why is it that the American public when surveyed scientifically by Mark Damien Duda of Responsive Management find that 77% of American adults strongly or moderately approve of hunting however when asked if they approve of hunting in a high fence preserve their approval rating drops to an abysmal 20%?

Instead of reading and comprehension skills you want to base your position on the use profanity such as "eaten up with dumb ass" and "any inbred jackass" to support your opinion. You sound like the two time (Alaska and California) convicted wildlife violator, draft dodger, and noted high fence TV shooter Ted Nugent. When interviewed a few years ago in a national hunting magazine he so eloquently stated "Anybody who doesn't agree with me is wrong!"

Larry - do even know of or have you ever read of The North American Model of Wildlife Conservation and the doctrine of wildlife being held in public trust? Does that model of wildlife conservation in America include anything about the ability to afford a Governor's sheep tag in Utah and putting money from that purchase into the hands of Don Peay and his group Sportsmen For Fish and Wildlife which refuses to allow any independent accounting firm to review their expenditures for wildlife habitat or conservation?

Once again, despite me asking time and again on AR, neither you nor anyone else is willing to post a photo of Scott Powell or anyone else standing next to the high fence which surrounds Broadmouth Canyon ranch. Why not?

Finally, just for you Larry, I just got an email from Worldwide Trophy Adventures, the company that bought out Cabelas TAG'S booking agency. Next year in New Zealand they're offering a high fence shoot for a red stag measuring 500 - 600 SCI points for the: "special price of $35,000". Maybe you can take your fellow AR member Scott Powell along with you (heck it's only $35,000) and when you guys kill your 500 - 600 SCI class red stag you can both proclaim as high fence shooter Ted Nugent does on TV, "The beast is dead, long live the beast!"

quote:

Originally posted by Echoanne12:
Poor ole Larry Shores,

All the money in the world and he can't seem to buy himself an ounce of critical thinking skills!

My dad told me never to argue with a fool or you become one. Nevertheless here's my last attempt.

Larry - why is it that the Wyoming Game and Fish Dept. as well as the state of Wyoming refuses to allow any high fenced properties in Wyoming with native wildlife such as elk, deer or antelope enclosed within for the purpose of being shot?

Larry - Has the Rocky Mountain Elk Federation ever spent any money on or advocated for the building of high fenced escape proof enclosures for the containment of elk so that it's members or any others can go and shoot elk behind such enclosures?

Larry - why is it that America's foremost organization of scientists, managers, hunters, educators, technicians, and managers of wildlife populations (The Wildlife Society numbering 10,000 members and in existence since 1937) "oppose any additional conversion of the public's native wildlife to private ownership via high-fenced enclosures"? "Oppose high-fenced enclosures, REGARDLESS OF SIZE, if they exclude FREE-RANGING native wildlife from critical seasonal habitats or migration routes, or jeopardize the sustainability of FREE-RANGING native wildlife"?

Larry - why is it that the American public when surveyed scientifically by Mark Damien Duda of Responsive Management find that 77% of American adults strongly or moderately approve of hunting however when asked if they approve of hunting in a high fence preserve their approval rating drops to an abysmal 20%?

Instead of reading and comprehension skills you want to base your position on the use profanity such as "eaten up with dumb ass" and "any inbred jackass" to support your opinion. You sound like the two time (Alaska and California) convicted wildlife violator, draft dodger, and noted high fence TV shooter Ted Nugent. When interviewed a few years ago in a national hunting magazine he so eloquently stated "Anybody who doesn't agree with me is wrong!"

Larry - do even know of or have you ever read of The North American Model of Wildlife Conservation and the doctrine of wildlife being held in public trust? Does that model of wildlife conservation in America include anything about the ability to afford a Governor's sheep tag in Utah and putting money from that purchase into the hands of Don Peay and his group Sportsmen For Fish and Wildlife which refuses to allow any independent accounting firm to review their expenditures for wildlife habitat or conservation?

Once again, despite me asking time and again on AR, neither you nor anyone else is willing to post a photo of Scott Powell or anyone else standing next to the high fence which surrounds Broadmouth Canyon ranch. Why not?

Finally, just for you Larry, I just got an email from Worldwide Trophy Adventures, the company that bought out Cabelas TAG'S booking agency. Next year in New Zealand they're offering a high fence shoot for a red stag measuring 500 - 600 SCI points for the: "special price of $35,000". Maybe you can take your fellow AR member Scott Powell along with you (heck it's only $35,000) and when you guys kill your 500 - 600 SCI class red stag you can both proclaim as high fence shooter Ted Nugent does on TV, "The beast is dead, long live the beast!"

quote:

Originally posted by Echoanne12:
Poor ole Larry Shores,

All the money in the world and he can't seem to buy himself an ounce of critical thinking skills!

My dad told me never to argue with a fool or you become one. Nevertheless here's my last attempt.

Larry - why is it that the Wyoming Game and Fish Dept. as well as the state of Wyoming refuses to allow any high fenced properties in Wyoming with native wildlife such as elk, deer or antelope enclosed within for the purpose of being shot?

Larry - Has the Rocky Mountain Elk Federation ever spent any money on or advocated for the building of high fenced escape proof enclosures for the containment of elk so that it's members or any others can go and shoot elk behind such enclosures?

Larry - why is it that America's foremost organization of scientists, managers, hunters, educators, technicians, and managers of wildlife populations (The Wildlife Society numbering 10,000 members and in existence since 1937) "oppose any additional conversion of the public's native wildlife to private ownership via high-fenced enclosures"? "Oppose high-fenced enclosures, REGARDLESS OF SIZE, if they exclude FREE-RANGING native wildlife from critical seasonal habitats or migration routes, or jeopardize the sustainability of FREE-RANGING native wildlife"?

Larry - why is it that the American public when surveyed scientifically by Mark Damien Duda of Responsive Management find that 77% of American adults strongly or moderately approve of hunting however when asked if they approve of hunting in a high fence preserve their approval rating drops to an abysmal 20%?

Instead of reading and comprehension skills you want to base your position on the use profanity such as "eaten up with dumb ass" and "any inbred jackass" to support your opinion. You sound like the two time (Alaska and California) convicted wildlife violator, draft dodger, and noted high fence TV shooter Ted Nugent. When interviewed a few years ago in a national hunting magazine he so eloquently stated "Anybody who doesn't agree with me is wrong!"

Larry - do even know of or have you ever read of The North American Model of Wildlife Conservation and the doctrine of wildlife being held in public trust? Does that model of wildlife conservation in America include anything about the ability to afford a Governor's sheep tag in Utah and putting money from that purchase into the hands of Don Peay and his group Sportsmen For Fish and Wildlife which refuses to allow any independent accounting firm to review their expenditures for wildlife habitat or conservation?

Once again, despite me asking time and again on AR, neither you nor anyone else is willing to post a photo of Scott Powell or anyone else standing next to the high fence which surrounds Broadmouth Canyon ranch. Why not?

Finally, just for you Larry, I just got an email from Worldwide Trophy Adventures, the company that bought out Cabelas TAG'S booking agency. Next year in New Zealand they're offering a high fence shoot for a red stag measuring 500 - 600 SCI points for the: "special price of $35,000". Maybe you can take your fellow AR member Scott Powell along with you (heck it's only $35,000) and when you guys kill your 500 - 600 SCI class red stag you can both proclaim as high fence shooter Ted Nugent does on TV, "The beast is dead, long live the beast!"

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Yes, Larry Sellers is a great guy, but I am floored you don't want to hunt with me and no, I meant LARRY ROOT, but I think that Roof guy was another idiot. Say hi to Dorothy and Toto for me...

quote:

The only miscreant here is Echo