The Utah bull thread got me to thinking. It is very common for someone to hire the services of others to assist them on there hunt. I know there are hunts that you must have a guide to do but at what point do you draw the line? Where do you relinquish the responsibility of hunting to someone else and become merely a shooter?

In other words, is there a line, once crossed would deminish the value of a trophy in your opinion?

I heard of a guy who hired a guide to take him on a bear hunt with hounds, who got tired and told the guide to go ahead and when the bear treed to shoot it, he'd eventually catch up. The guide did, (I wouldn't have) and the guy was proud of "his" bear.

That's certainly, imo, across the line.

I think if the hunter is letting the guide do all the work, make all the decisions, and really does nothing except shoots an animal then thats overr the line.

Theres a big difference between following the advice and judgement of your guide and blindly following.

That is a good question Steve. I've never been on a guided hunt and therefore can't give an experienced answer.

My opinion is that if the guide is there to assist you in your hunt that is just fine. On the other hand, if he's there to do the hunting and your just the shooter, something has been lost in the process.

One thing that comes to mind is that the guide service has a reputation to uphold and if hunters regularly get skunked, the guide won't be in business long. It is a fine line indeed.

Ken....

Here's a story I heard that does go "over the line" and in the same vein of the people that have an over abundant amount of money to spend on hunts that most of us cannot even dream of.

A man was on a lion hunt in Africa and was hunting for a particular lion with a black mane. He hunted and was never able to get on the lion. The hunt ended and the man returned to the United States. But, the man retained the services of the guide and the trackers who continued to hunt the lion. The lion was located after about two weeks and the man was called. He charted a jet, flew to Africa and shot the lion.

IMHO, that is shooting and not hunting.

The problem as I see it, is that each individual, depending on several factors, including financial and personal concepts regarding hunting, looks for different things when it comes to a guided hunt.

That is something that will never change.

Having been on guided hunts, both as a client and as the guide, one of the hardest things to figure out about any client is just exactly what they are really looking for.

Add to that, depending on other factors that a guide is completely unaware of, the clients goals and desires can change on a daily, sometimes hourly basis.

Not meaning to sound confusing on the subject, but I have seen clients goals/desires/ethics change radically on the third night of a 5 day elk/mule deer hunt, especially if they are the only one in camp that has not shot something.

Also, there are clients with enough money that all they care about is success and they are willing to pay whatever is necessary to ensure that success.

Some folks are happy with the experience and would have liked to kill something, or are happy if they kill a good representative specimen.

Others are going to shell out $$$$$$ until they have the exact trophy they want, and they really do not care how it takes place. JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by GA DEER HUNTER:
Here's a story I heard that does go "over the line" and in the same vein of the people that have an over abundant amount of money to spend on hunts that most of us cannot even dream of.

A man was on a lion hunt in Africa and was hunting for a particular lion with a black mane. He hunted and was never able to get on the lion. The hunt ended and the man returned to the United States. But, the man retained the services of the guide and the trackers who continued to hunt the lion. The lion was located after about two weeks and the man was called. He charted a jet, flew to Africa and shot the lion.

IMHO, that is shooting and not hunting.

GA DEER HUNTER, That may sound like just a shooting to you, and it may be, but I sincerely doubt it was, haveing been on safaris where lion were taken. Lion hunting is certainly not a fish in a barrel shoot, unless the lion is in a cage, or is a pet, (CANNED HUNT)! A wild lion who has gotten old enough to reach trophy size is not a pushover, and you may hunt him for 30 days, knowing he is in your concession, and never see anything but tracks, and evidence of his kills. Big lions, especially satalite males move around a lot, and once they get on to the fact that something is tracking them, they will be as hard to find as a ghost.

The fact that the man was willing to charter a plane to get back while the lion was still in the concession, doesn't mean it was a sure thing, but only that the lion was there at the time of the call. I can almost assure you that if he shot that lion, he worked for it, because that old lion didn't get that big being stupid.

In Tanzania, today, you can't shoot a lion that is under five yrs old, and many of the safaris, haveing to be 21 days by law, are not successful, and the average cost of a lion hunt today is $50K up, because of the limited number of permits, and the time needed to be successful.

Foer some reason people who only hunt deer and such seem to think safari in Africa is a turkey shoot, and all that is needed is money! That is certainly not the case I assure you! You may walk an average of 15-20 miles per day hunting lion, or Elephant, for the full 21 days, and still not make a kill, or even see a real trophy. The films you watch on TV or on tape cut the work part out, and only show you the camp, and the kill. Believe me, when you get home from a safari for any of the big five, you will need a week's rest to be up and running on all cylinders!

Not meaning to turn this into a pissing match, but your making some assumptions on your part?

It does not say what country the lion was hunted in, and from what I am reading unless I am missing something, the lion was being monitored continously after it was located.

If the hunter was paying to have the lion watched and then chartered a plane and flew over there and shot the thing, that does not sound like a typical lion hunt to me, did I miss something or am I just ignorant?

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Not meaning to turn this into a pissing match, but your making some assumptions on your part?

It does not say what country the lion was hunted in, and from what I am reading unless I am missing something, the lion was being monitored continously after it was located.

If the hunter was paying to have the lion watched and then chartered a plane and flew over there and shot the thing, that does not sound like a typical lion hunt to me, did I miss something or am I just ignorant?

The country I mentioned was only an example,but the general rule all ove Africa, excepth RSA is one must stay on Safari 21 days to hunt lion. However, far this exercize I think many people here are talking about an animal that they have no idea of what they speak! There is nothing you can hunt in North America that will give you a paralell to an African lion! Most here are makeing thier minds up from park lions filmed on Animal planet. A wild lion doesn't take to being watched so easily as the park veriety.

The guy simply used up his 21 days, without getting a lion, and told the PH that when he found lions back in the area, to give him a call. so he could come back. Fortunently the man could afford to fly over on a moment's notice, and pay for another 21 days in the bush. That in no way makes this a fish-in-a-barrel shoot. An African lion is not an animal that you can moniter very easily. If he gets the idea folks are gettig too near, he will be as hard to find as last year's camp fire smoke, as I said.

You are allowed to make any assumption you wish, but I fear, in this case,you are wrong.

Each hunter determines the amount of pride he has in a specific animal. To each person, it is different.

To one, it may be the blood sweat and tears that were invested to obtain the trophy, to others, possibly they celebrate the size of the animal, despite the effort, or lack thereof, to obtain the trophy.

I never judge my trophies based on someone else's value system. It is a recipe for disappointment.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

The country I mentioned was only an example,but the general rule all ove Africa, excepth RSA is one must stay on Safari 21 days to hunt lion. However, far this exercize I think many people here are talking about an animal that they have no idea of what they speak! There is nothing you can hunt in North America that will give you a paralell to an African lion! Most here are makeing thier minds up from park lions filmed on Animal planet. A wild lion doesn't take to being watched so easily as the park veriety.[/QUOTE]

Mac, unless I'm missing something posted elsewhere, many or most here have not even mentioned lion hunting. The ones that have, IMO, have not given any indication that they know nothing about lion hunting, only that they do not agree with the way it was said to have been hunted.

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Fortunently the man could afford to fly over on a moment's notice, and pay for another 21 days in the bush.

At no point in the report of this incident, does it state that the hunter spent an additional 21 days in the bush.

Am I just not able to read the same things into this story that you are?

I have never hunted lions nor have I been to Africa, but you are basing this story off your experiences and my guess is, that just like most of us, you have not experienced everything. JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by GA DEER HUNTER:
Here's a story I heard that does go "over the line" and in the same vein of the people that have an over abundant amount of money to spend on hunts that most of us cannot even dream of.

A man was on a lion hunt in Africa and was hunting for a particular lion with a black mane. He hunted and was never able to get on the lion. The hunt ended and the man returned to the United States. But, the man retained the services of the guide and the trackers who continued to hunt the lion. The lion was located after about two weeks and the man was called. He charted a jet, flew to Africa and shot the lion.

IMHO, that is shooting and not hunting.

It's gonna take him a minimum 48 hours to get to the bush. No telling where that lion is gonna be. This is no sure thing, IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Fortunently the man could afford to fly over on a moment's notice, and pay for another 21 days in the bush.

At no point in the report of this incident, does it state that the hunter spent an additional 21 days in the bush.

Am I just not able to read the same things into this story that you are?

I have never hunted lions nor have I been to Africa, but you are basing this story off your experiences and my guess is, that just like most of us, you have not experienced everything. JMO.

You have to purchase a 21 day (in Tanzania) license to hunt a lion. As he had already used one license; he would have had to purchase another 21 day hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Fortunently the man could afford to fly over on a moment's notice, and pay for another 21 days in the bush.

At no point in the report of this incident, does it state that the hunter spent an additional 21 days in the bush.

Am I just not able to read the same things into this story that you are?

CHC, I never said he will spend another 21 days in Africa, but to get a license, for a lion he has to buy another 21 days in most countries, other than RSA.There is really very little wild lion hunting in RSA. Most hunting there is game ranchs.

He doesn't have to stay there longer than it takes to shoot the lion, but he still must pay the 21 day daily fee, at the tune of about $1500 per day, and pay a trophy fee of another $5K-$10K. He can't Get the license if he doesn't. This is what I mean about folks talking about things they are not up to snuff on!

The way the post was written it implied that the man simply bought a certain lion. I'm sure he did like most, expressed his desire for a blackmane, adult, or nothing! This is common with big five trophy hunters. The fact that they want a particular type of lion is no different from a man in the USA holding out for a 250 point Muledeer, or going home empty.

Hunting report or adds for African outfitters make a real mistake in the wording they use to Americans who are not up on what they mean. This usually goes like this: I have a trophy male lion in the Selous, That I can sell you on a 21 day license, for $1500 per day, and a trophy fee of $10K ! What the PH or outfitter is telling you is, he has trophy male lion permit in the Selous, that will cost you $1500 per day, plus a trophy fee of $10K if you are sucessful. That doesn't mean you are guarinteed anything other than the licence, and a hunt. Getting the lion depends if you can find one of the quality you are after.

Like Leopard most hunters will go on an average of three safaris before they connect on a spoted cat, and lion is absolutely no different!

All I'm saying is everything you read is not always the way you see it, so without knowing something about the subject, it is imposible to make an assesment of the the quality of the hunt. What everyone here has done is misunderstand the happening that was quoted in that post. That is exactly what anti hunters do, Down talk when they do not understand what they are critisizeing. We as hunters need to be carefull what we talk about because the antis lurk hunting forums, and use our own words against us, and when we talk without complete understanding, then make derogatory comments about any hunt, we do ourselves great harm.

Ignorance is not a sin, it is simply that we do not know, or haven't been told. The worse thing is when we are told, and still we stick our heads in the sand, and continue being ignorant by choice!

Most hunters who have never hunted Africa, simply do not understand the system there. That has nothing to do with intelligence, but simply something they do not know!

[QUOTE}I have never hunted lions nor have I been to Africa, but you are basing this story off your experiences and my guess is, that just like most of us, you have not experienced everything. JMO.[/QUOTE]

You are allowed your opinion, and I'd say I agree with you that I have not experienced EVERYTHING, in my 72 years, but unlike you, I have done a bunch of EXPERIENCEING in Africa!

Look young man, I'm not trying to make you or anyone else look dumb, I simply think you do not understand the way Africa, or lion hunting works. You should take a little 14 day Cape Buffalo safari with a few head of common plains game thrown in, and you will see what I'm trying to tell you!

Now I'm through with this, It's all yours,
.............................................. BYE

Lets see. 72 minus 58 means your a whole 14 years older than me.

As I stated earlier and still stand by it, your basing your opinion on this from what YOU have experienced, NEITHER of us have any actual knowledge of just exactly how this went down, NOW do we?????

Your interpreting the story one way, I see from another, regardless of how many days worth of license this guy paid for, if he flew in one day, shot the lion and flew out the next, THAT WAS NOT A TYPICAL LION HUNT BY ANY MEANS, now was it?????????????

I do not care how ignorant you want to try and make me look, the story as related leaves LOTS of room for interpretation in many directions.

At NO point have I said that I was right, but just as easily that does not mean that you are right either.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Lets see. 72 minus 58 means your a whole 14 years older than me.

As I stated earlier and still stand by it, your basing your opinion on this from what YOU have experienced, NEITHER of us have any actual knowledge of just exactly how this went down, NOW do we?????

Your interpreting the story one way, I see from another, regardless of how many days worth of license this guy paid for, if he flew in one day, shot the lion and flew out the next, THAT WAS NOT A TYPICAL LION HUNT BY ANY MEANS, now was it?????????????

I do not care how ignorant you want to try and make me look, the story as related leaves LOTS of room for interpretation in many directions.

At NO point have I said that I was right, but just as easily that does not mean that you are right either.

I guess we will simply have to agree to disagree!

I draw the line at the record book crap, at what ever cost. I could care less how or when or what you hunt, but when it comes to dollars, and an entry into some kind of record book, by any means, I just shake my head. Is it really that important????? That is not what hunting is about.

quote:

I guess we will simply have to agree to disagree!

I drink to your health on that one.

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I draw the line at the record book crap, at what ever cost. I could care less how or when or what you hunt, but when it comes to dollars, and an entry into some kind of record book, by any means, I just shake my head. Is it really that important????? That is not what hunting is about.

I agree totally with that, as I feel that is what has caused Deer Hunting, especially in Texas to get priced out of reason for many people, and the problem is, most of those huge bucks killed on the high fence places can not really be registered as trophies, because of where they were killed.

Human Greed and Avoress turned hunting from an enjoyable endeavor, into a competitive sport.

To me something is basically wrong with that concept. JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

I draw the line at the record book crap, at what ever cost. I could care less how or when or what you hunt, but when it comes to dollars, and an entry into some kind of record book, by any means, I just shake my head. Is it really that important????? That is not what hunting is about.

I agree totally with that, as I feel that is what has caused Deer Hunting, especially in Texas to get priced out of reason for many people, and the problem is, most of those huge bucks killed on the high fence places can not really be registered as trophies, because of where they were killed.

Human Greed and Avoress turned hunting from an enjoyable endeavor, into a competitive sport.

To me something is basically wrong with that concept. JMO.

Now! here are some things I can agree with Kudu56, and CHC on! Record books, and The prices charged for hunting deer in Texas! I have never registered any animal in any record book, though I've taken some that would make those books. In the first place nobody looks at the a person's record book listing except themselves, so what is the point, he already knows what he has taken. However, I hope you are not thinking the TROPHY FEES in Africa I Mentioned in my post have anything to do with record books, because they don't. The trophy fees in Africa are like our tag fees, you buy the license, then you only pay for what you shoot, and are paid to the host government when you kill an animal on license.

I was born in Texas, and I can hunt 3 or 4 animals in Africa as cheaply as I could hunt a property where a real buster of a buck is likely to be, in Texas. The trespass fee, and the trophy fee, based size, to the land owner. That is why after my grandfather died,and our ranch was split up, I never hunted deer in Texas again. I was born on that place, and hunted there all my life till papa's death.

I can pay out of state license fees, and even with travel costs still hunt cheaper out of state than my home state of Texas. New Mexico alone has 36 million acres of public land to hunt, and all you need is a license.

I do know that the story is true but I do not know all the details. My point was that after the hunter left Africa, his hunt was over. When he came back, somebody else had done the hunting for him; he just pulled the trigger.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

I draw the line at the record book crap, at what ever cost. I could care less how or when or what you hunt, but when it comes to dollars, and an entry into some kind of record book, by any means, I just shake my head. Is it really that important????? That is not what hunting is about.

I agree totally with that, as I feel that is what has caused Deer Hunting, especially in Texas to get priced out of reason for many people, and the problem is, most of those huge bucks killed on the high fence places can not really be registered as trophies, because of where they were killed.

Human Greed and Avoress turned hunting from an enjoyable endeavor, into a competitive sport.

To me something is basically wrong with that concept. JMO.

Living in Iowa right now, and since I am 300 miles from my family's homestead, I looked into deer leases out here. Average was $1500 a year, plus the trophy fee.

As a younger man with a family on the way, there is no way I could justify spending upwards of $3000 for a deer. I can shoot all the does I want in Nebraska for $55 a piece, and there is plenty of public land (over hunted though it is) in Iowa. My fear is that the money will kill hunting for the next generation. I got lucky when I started out, but now you need major money or land to get a decent chance.

quote:

Originally posted by SteveM70:
.. I know there are hunts that you must have a guide ...In other words, is there a line, once crossed would deminish the value of a trophy in your opinion?

Excellent question.

To me, the wording should be changed in the Laws from a Required Guide to Game Toter for the places where one man has no chance of carrying all the Elk, Moose, Bear, Goat, whatever, out by himself.

And as for me, the moment I would relinquish the "Finding, Spotting, Tracking, Locating" of the Game to anyone else, I would no longer be Hunting.
-----

I remember discussing this with an Outfitter, Kirk Kelso, a few years back. He was Guiding for (I think) Black Tail or Couse(SP?) Deer. They would ride along in a Jeep until a Mexican Spotter saw the Deer laying under brush off in the distance(some at 400yds), dismount, set-up the shot and let`er rip. His clients at that time were typically well known Rifle Builders and Rag Writers.

I remember asking Mr. Kelso how his clients could take pride in the Kill when the Mexican Spotters actually did all the Hunting. Lots of interesting comments followed from people who had a vested interest in "Hunting for other folks".

If I can't do my own "Hunting", it just doesn't interest me.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

What's the situation then if you are hunting with a mate who spots a buck. he points it out and you stalk it together and you take the shot...

When I'm taking people out here then I treat it the same way as I do when I'm hunting with a friend. They are involved and included in what I'm doing. I tell them about what usual movement is like and they are hunting with me.

Rgds,
FB

quote:

Originally posted by SteveM70:
The Utah bull thread got me to thinking. It is very common for someone to hire the services of others to assist them on there hunt. I know there are hunts that you must have a guide to do but at what point do you draw the line? Where do you relinquish the responsibility of hunting to someone else and become merely a shooter?

In other words, is there a line, once crossed would deminish the value of a trophy in your opinion?

I draw the line at having to hire a guide period. Not because I wouln't hire a guide, but because I'm not in a position to do so at this point in my life. Now if I knew where a bull like the one was in question was and had a tag for that area, here in CO I'd hunt him on my own. Going out of State where I may not have been able to scout the area on a regular basis I'd probably hire a guide but can't say if I'd pay as much as that hunter did or not. That bull was definatly a once in a lifetime kind of animal, and if I had the means to go after that kind of animal I probably would have as well.

I will say it would have been a better story to hear of a DIY hunter bagging that bull. I like it when the underdog wins! I'll admit I'm a little jealous of the guy who shot the Spider Bull.

I do all my own hunting for Elk and both kinds of Deer. These are hunts that I feel I have all the necessary skills to survive the country and hunt on my own. I am about to go Elk hunting in Colorado with 15 buddies as we have done yearly since 1992. Our rule is after our own kill we help all others in the field with packing, care of meat, etc. We hunt a very remote area and another rule is, if no help is available, be able to retreive our own kill, no matter what it takes or don't pull the trigger. After the first few days, usually plenty of help is available. ----- I have used guides and outfitters for Alaska, Canada and Africa, because I feel I need their expertise of the country and animals to be hunted. I would never allow anyone else to shoot one of my animals, except for safety. One of the real joys of my hunting is trying out the loads I have worked so hard on. Sometimes I wonder is I shoot to hunt, or hunt to shoot and reload, but regardless I enjoy the whole game, and I certainly don't want anyone else shooting one of my pride and joy rifles and hard earned reloads with that perfect bullet at an animal I find worthy of a hunt. This if my .02's for what it is worth. Good shooting.