A Barnes bullet that doesn't open up is more likely to exit then one that opens up. Failure to open may be more common than we suspect because of this fact.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by delloro:
OP, send the pic and the facts to barnes and tell us what they say. might be interesting.

Delloro,

That's exactly what I'm doing. I've sent the bullet to Barnes for inspection at their instruction.

I'll post whatever they say.

Greg

Todd,

You seem to be a bit angry concerning the TSX bullets. I've seen the pics of your bullets before. Looks like 2 of the 5 didn't work correctly. The others are not too bad. The only one that really looks suspect to me is the middle one. The bullet second from the right appears to have hit something along the way due to the angle on it. JMO. You are not alone however in that a few, a very few, have also reported problems with the TSX bullet so there must be something causing it.

My comments were offered to convey that I've used the TSX bullet across the full spectrum of calibers, across the full spectrum of velocities, and the full spectrum of animals from extremely soft (leopard) to extremely tough (Buffalo and Hippo). I don't know exactly how many animals I've shot with the TSX but it is a pretty large number.

The fact is that my experience is vastly different from yours. I've never had one fail to kill and kill quickly. I've never had one fail to open and do it's work. Is it possible that some that were not recovered failed to open. Sure it is, but I've not had a single animal hit with a TSX that required much tracking. Most have been anchored on the spot, blowing blood and tissue all over the ground and or surrounding brush.

Both of the leopards I shot with the TSX were dead under the tree. The smaller of the cats was hit with a 300gr TSX from a 375 at 75 yards or so. A soft target with a tough bullet moving at less than hyper speed!! The larger was hit with a 180 gr TTSX from 34 yards out of a 300 H&H. The larger cat was hit behind the shoulder so the only bones touched were perhaps ribs. In other words, not much resistance and yet the bullets on both cats opened perfectly. I also have a 225 gr old style "X" bullet recovered from an Elk hit at extreme range from my 340 WBY. I would think the range he was hit at would have caused the velocity to have dropped pretty low. Still, that old bullet opened and did it's job.

I try not to get emotional about things like this. For me, it's really more about trying to find out what went wrong with the bullets in question as these failures to open are really not the norm with the TSX bullet. I've heard comments about the small exit hole with the TSX and the corresponding assumption that the bullet didn't open. I don't believe that is actually what happens however. If you watch the ballistic gelatin demo on the Barnes website, you'll see that bullet cuts all along the wound channel and cuts its way out instead of pulling and blowing the exit hole open. What is important is watching how the gelatin is destroyed, opening to an incredible sized wound channel behind the bullet, with the striations being cut along the way. And that has been my experience. Small exit holes but with mush on the inside. With that leopard I shot last year, using the 300 H&H, the exit hole was about the size of a dime. Nice and clean. However, everything on the inside of the rib cage was completely blood shot.

Inherently, I think the TSX is the best designed expanding bullet on the market today. That being the case, there will always be instances of failure from time to time of anything made by man. Whether or not the failure to open on your 2 bullets was caused by a bad batch of copper, a manufacturing flaw, hitting something along the flight patch, etc, we may never know. And it sounds as if those questions are enough for you to decide to move on in your choice of bullet. However for me, not a single failure of the bullet over a wide and fairly extensive number of calibers and animals of differing size and toughness has given me 100% confidence in them. I've recently changed over to the CEB bullets for Dangerous Game in my double rifles but that doesn't have anything to do with failure of the TSX concerning performance. I couldn't get the TSX to regulate in my 9.3x74R double with the scope mounted. That is an issue with doubles however. I also like the fact that the Non-Cons and BBW#13 Solids shoot to the same POI due to an identical driving band design and bullet dimension. So for Doubles, I've switched. However, I haven't seen a compelling reason to switch from the TSX in any of my bolt guns. Quite the contrary. I've seen every reason to stay with them.

Todd W.

What bullet did you use on this years idaho bear hunt and how did it perform?

A friend shot a moose on a hunt we were on together a couple of years back. One shot went in the chest and was found in the hind quarter not mushroomed at all. The second shot was broadside and it didn't mushroom either. We found it against the hide on the opposite shoulder. I've heard similar stories with elk as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Dog Man:
Todd W.

What bullet did you use on this years idaho bear hunt and how did it perform?

Dog Man,

I used the CEB Non-Con on that hunt as I used my 9.3X74R double. Flattened him like a freight train. Hit him just a bit high and needed to follow up with another but it anchored him in place.

Just an observation on this after reading all the responses. Are these really bullet failures, or are they instances where we, as the hunter had bullets that did not perform up to our expectations?

I have been a long time user of Barnes bullets and have also used nosler partitions/remington core-locts/speer grand slams along with various hornady/sierra and winchester bullets.

I am of the school of thought, that if the animal is DRT or within a reasonable distance of the initial hit, then there was no bullet failure. I was expecting the bullet to kill the animal, and it did.

465 H&H posted this:

quote:

A Barnes bullet that doesn't open up is more likely to exit then one that opens up. Failure to open may be more common than we suspect because of this fact.

I go along with his estimation on this, because even though the animal died fairly quickly after the shot, the wound channel and entrance and exit holes showed very little expansion from actual bullet diameter prior to the shot, but with no bullet to recover it is guess work at best to say the bullet failed.

What few Barnes bullets I have recovered all looked like the ads show them to look like, with weight retention of 90% or above. I think it comes down more to a case of what each of us want from a hunting bullet.

I prefer a dead animal, and if I recover the bullet, that is just an additional trophy. My own experiences with Barnes bullets have been good, but since I base my judgement on how quick the critter dies and how much tissue destruction there was, I may have had a few or even several instances where there was little or no expansion, but because of bullet diameter I was unknowingly putting basically a "solid" thru the right organs to produce a clean kill.

quote:

Originally posted by bwanawannabe:
A friend shot a moose on a hunt we were on together a couple of years back. One shot went in the chest and was found in the hind quarter not mushroomed at all. The second shot was broadside and it didn't mushroom either. We found it against the hide on the opposite shoulder. I've heard similar stories with elk as well.

Bwana,

Do you know what caliber rifle he shot that moose with? The reason I ask is that in 1998, I shot an Alaskan Moose with a 225gr Barnes "X" (not the TSX) out of my 340 Wby. The bull ran past me as a hunting buddy missed it. Once past me, it was my turn as he completely missed.

I hit that bull just to the left of the anus in the left hind quarter and the bullet exited between the right shoulder and neck. I assume the bullet opened as the exit wound was about the size of a quarter and it stopped him in his tracks as if Pole Axed. He didn't fall right away but the point is that the X bullet that I assume opened, traveled the entire length of his body and exited. Yet, your friend shot a moose broadside with an X bullet that didn't open and was found under the skin on the far side? One would expect MORE penetration from a bullet that doesn't open but that is opposite to what you and I are reporting here.

More things to make you go "Hmmmmm"! The mystery continues!!

I have shot exactly one moose. It was in Newfoundland in 1996. I was using a .340 Weatherby and shooting 250 grain Barnes "X" Flat Base bullets.

The initial hit was between 50 and 60 yards away, bullet entered the animals chest between the neck and the right shoulder.

At the hit, the animal rocked back on its haunches, then stood back up and spun to the right. As soon as the left shoulder came around, my second shot entered behind the left shoulder. The animal made it about 10 yards at most and piled up.

These two bullets were among the few I ever recovered. Both opened up as advertised, one retaining 95% weight, the other 98% weight.

The first bullet traveled lengthwise thru the animal and was balled up under the hide of the left hind leg.

The second bullet traveled from just behind the left shoulder up into the right side of the animals neck coming to rest, just under the hide.

That was the first animal I ever used Barnes Bullets on, and I fell in love with them. One note however, even though I use them and are satisfied with the results, I do not like the Barnes Triple Shoks near as much as I do the Barnes "X" Flat Base bullets. in all of the calibers I shoot. JME, others mileage will vary.

Great bull anyway. I prefer old technology. The Nosler partition works as designed every single time, under a wide range of velocities. That's why I'd choose it over any Barnes ever made any day of the week. That's not the first time a Barnes has failed to open, and it's not uncommon for them to shred their petals. People have been trying to design a bullet to perform like a partition for 60 some odd years, and there's still none better.

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
Great bull anyway. I prefer old technology. The Nosler partition works as designed every single time, under a wide range of velocities. That's why I'd choose it over any Barnes ever made any day of the week. That's not the first time a Barnes has failed to open, and it's not uncommon for them to shred their petals. People have been trying to design a bullet to perform like a partition for 60 some odd years, and there's still none better.

I actually switched to the Barnes due to having several Partitions completely come apart into pieces on Caribou. Nothing but schrapnel remaining as the base core isn't bonded to the jacket.

If a person prefers the Partition type bullet, the Swift A-Frame is a vastly superior design as the base is bonded to the jacket.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lhook7:
I had the same thing happen with a kudu. We figured out that the bullet had clipped a bush[ /QUOTE]

Ding....ding.....we have a winner! I've used them in most of my rifles with great results from cape buffalo to moose, to black bears, to whitetails. If the bullet hits a twig and the tip is damaged or it rolls and enters sideways or backwards......it won't expand well.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Jon Beutler:
Is it possible that the bullet didnt hit anything with mass, then slowed down and didnt have the velocity to expand?

It should expand regardless of soft tissue or bone and at most any velocity. I'd be very interested to hear if the animal was in the open or in some tree or brush when shot.

Brett

quote:

The Chrono'd fps is 3080fps at the muzzle.

At that muzzle velocity, the 180 .30cal TSX would be going about 2356 at impact. I don't trust TSXs to expand at less than 2200 fps. Obviously, that is more than that, but I've also had several TSX tips, as others have also noted, become battered and occluded from being in the magazine a few times when another round was fired or being cycled in and out. So I think the lower velocity and a partially occluded tip could have caused this.

LWD

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
Great bull anyway. I prefer old technology. The Nosler partition works as designed every single time, under a wide range of velocities. That's why I'd choose it over any Barnes ever made any day of the week. That's not the first time a Barnes has failed to open, and it's not uncommon for them to shred their petals. People have been trying to design a bullet to perform like a partition for 60 some odd years, and there's still none better.

I actually switched to the Barnes due to having several Partitions completely come apart into pieces on Caribou. Nothing but schrapnel remaining as the base core isn't bonded to the jacket.

If a person prefers the Partition type bullet, the Swift A-Frame is a vastly superior design as the base is bonded to the jacket.

Not to start a pissing match, but I"ve seen probably 120+ animals killed with partitions, among them some 75+ aoudad. From 7-08 to 300 Wby Mag and I've never seen one do what you described. We can agree to disagree.....there's no better big game bullet on the planet than a partition. I've seen too much proof in the field.

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
Great bull anyway. I prefer old technology. The Nosler partition works as designed every single time, under a wide range of velocities. That's why I'd choose it over any Barnes ever made any day of the week. That's not the first time a Barnes has failed to open, and it's not uncommon for them to shred their petals. People have been trying to design a bullet to perform like a partition for 60 some odd years, and there's still none better.

I actually switched to the Barnes due to having several Partitions completely come apart into pieces on Caribou. Nothing but schrapnel remaining as the base core isn't bonded to the jacket.

If a person prefers the Partition type bullet, the Swift A-Frame is a vastly superior design as the base is bonded to the jacket.

Not to start a pissing match, but I"ve seen probably 120+ animals killed with partitions, among them some 75+ aoudad. From 7-08 to 300 Wby Mag and I've never seen one do what you described. We can agree to disagree.....there's no better big game bullet on the planet than a partition. I've seen too much proof in the field.

No pissing match needed. That isn't my purpose for posting here but rather sharing experiences and learning from each other. It appears you and I have had different experiences concerning these bullets. I can't change what I've seen and neither can you. That's just the way it is! I do think the Partition is a semi-premium bullet at best. It's a good concept but lacks execution IMO. The Swift A-Frame is the same concept but has a considerable leg up since the core and jacket is bonded. One doesn't have to look to hard to find stories of Partitions failing. But I don't remember ever hearing of an A-Frame coming apart. No axe to grind here or anything to gain as I don't even shoot the A-Frame. But take two bullets of the same design, one bonded and the other not, it's not hard to figure which is the tougher projectile.

Deer, sheep, and most Plains Game, and it's less of a concern. But start poking holes in critters that can take revenge by stomping or biting such as a Cape Buffalo or Brown Bear and having a bullet stay intact takes on new meaning!

quote:

Originally posted by just-a-hunter:
I also don't think a person needs to kill at least a couple hundred animals with a bullet to have an honest oppinion about it. 14 was enough for me.

Todd

While I can appreciate your honest opinion after 14 hunts with a bullet I am actually trying to get a larger sample size and some more statistically accurate facts before I make up mine.

Maybe your barrel doesn't like TSX's, maybe the guy in the back of your reloading supply store hates your guts and is messing with your supplies, maybe you are and expert marksman and only shooting animals in the left eye, maybe you only shoot at game through the anus through 300 yards of thick brush as its running away, etc. etc. etc.

Just curious if you have 1 bad experience at a restaurant that hundreds of your family and friends and food critics love and rave about do you think you are absolutely right and everyone else is an idiot?

Can we please hear from some more professionals here who see lots of different rounds shot at lots of different game every year?

MNHunter,

I started using Nosler Partitions in my 270 in 1962. Since then, I have killed lirerally 100s of game animals ranging in size from Coues deer to Yukon moose with it. I mostly used the 150 grain NP in the 270 but also the 160 in the &mm Mag and the 270 in the 375 on leopard, kudu ,impala etc. Never had a bullet failure. It is my go to bullet and one that I have complete confidence in.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lhook7:
I had the same thing happen with a kudu. We figured out that the bullet had clipped a bush[ /QUOTE]

Ding....ding.....we have a winner! I've used them in most of my rifles with great results from cape buffalo to moose, to black bears, to whitetails. If the bullet hits a twig and the tip is damaged or it rolls and enters sideways or backwards......it won't expand well.

Brett

This has been my observation also. Recent gemsbok shot by my sister in law, 7mm Mag, TSX, from about 50-60 yards. The gemsbok was DRT, bang, flop. But, we recovered the bullet, essentially unmushroomed, but... bent, just like the one in the picture. There was some light brush about 10 yards from the animal, seems as if it did hit some, but not enough to spoil the location. It did however, spoil the stability of the round. All the other gemsbok shot on that trip, the bullets were not retained.

Theory is, that it hits the bush, begins tumbling, still kills due to location ( location, location, not bullet type or brand) and fails to pass thru due to tumbling effect.

FWIW, any bullet would be subject to this, not just the Barnes.

Also, to share some experience, we had an ammo trial at a large ranch here last year. Four very highly trained shooters, all with similar 300 WM. Shooting a dozen different bullets at game, in a two day cull operation. All shots approximately 400 yards, thru both shoulders if at all possible.

Shot almost 100 animals, between the four of us, donated all the meat. Only two lost, both with the same bullet. Blood found, so we know they were hit. One bullet failure, BUT ANIMAL STILL EXPIRED. The jacket and core came unbonded on the shoulder, only bullet recovered.

Lessons? Very simply, nothing matters more than shot placement, you can kill them with an ice cube if you put it in the right spot. For DG hunting, the lessons are bit deeper, but still, shot placement trumps bullet brand every time.

I will never ever buy a box of Barnes Bullets again. I believed all the hype and thought i would support a company from my home state.

I took several boxes to Africa. A 300 win 180 grain. The bullet exploded to shrapnel when I shot my eland. A couple other bullets had little to no expansion. Barnes admitted they failed and would not try to remedy the problem.

quote:

there's no better big game bullet on the planet than a partition

You don't get out much do you? If that is the best you have seen, you have not seen much either!

Michael

I have had the bullet just poke a hole.
When i looked at the rest of them in the box the hollow points seemed to be very shallow.
They were shot in a 257 RobAI.
2 deer and 4 or 5 hogs shot at less than 250 yards.
I still have some of the Barnes X bullets and they have always worked like they should.
I still have a partial box of the XXX and will not use them for hunting,they are 100 grain.

quote:

Do you know what caliber rifle he shot that moose with? The reason I ask is that in 1998, I shot an Alaskan Moose with a 225gr Barnes "X" (not the TSX) out of my 340 Wby. The bull ran past me as a hunting buddy missed it. Once past me, it was my turn as he completely missed.

I hit that bull just to the left of the anus in the left hind quarter and the bullet exited between the right shoulder and neck. I assume the bullet opened as the exit wound was about the size of a quarter and it stopped him in his tracks as if Pole Axed. He didn't fall right away but the point is that the X bullet that I assume opened, traveled the entire length of his body and exited. Yet, your friend shot a moose broadside with an X bullet that didn't open and was found under the skin on the far side? One would expect MORE penetration from a bullet that doesn't open but that is opposite to what you and I are reporting here.

Todd I believe it was either a 30/06 or a .300 win mag.

Another odd instance involving penetration is a moose that my dad and I shot. My father shot the bull at about 20 yards in thick willows with a 140 grain sst from my .270. He ran past me at the same range but about 50 yards from the original shot. A 180 grain sst from my 300 win mag entered the moose a half an inch from the 270 entry wound. When we skinned him out, both bullets were mushroomed beside each other against the cape on the off shoulder. Two completely different bullet weights and calibers but with nearly identical flight paths performed the exact same. The only difference is that the bull dropped to my shot.

It's amazing how when a TSX fails to open (and it does happen, just do a search on TSX failure on this forum) it just has to be the load or the rifle or anything but the bullet.

Really, really?

Have Partitions come apart, yup rarely but they do, the original ones almost never. They should go back to the original partition design plus bond the core to the jacket. Does the lead start to squeeze out of the rear of an A-Frame on a very high velocity impact at close range on a shoulder bone sometimes, you bet. They should close that hole. I am not aware of any of these faults with the North Fork bonded bullets, and though I haven't had a failure with a Partition in 40 years of hunting, I'm seriously considering to start switching my rifles over to North Forks.

I do shoot TSXs in my 500 Jeffery because they feed and shoot so damn well, and expansion on a cape buffalo (which is what I bought it for) shouldn't be an issue. But I may well move to North Forks there also if they sell a 570g or 600g bonded soft point in .510 caliber.

I'm too lazy to post some pics of a couple of A-frames, but if someone want to help me out, I'd be happy to email some pics to you:

Both are 150gr. A-frames from a .270 wcf, about 3000 fps muzzle velocity:

1. Impact moose shoulder at 240+ yards. Broke both shoulders; nice expansion & integrity; front core "smeared-off", which I attribute to going through so much bone (both shoulders & probably the spine too).

2. Impact moose neck at oblique angle at approx. 20 yards (finishing shot); again, muzzle velocity 3000+ fps. Front core totally smeared off. Back core ejected sideways from rear jacket!

Did this second bullet "fail"? No, given the severe angle, extremely heavy neck vertebrae, and very high impact velocity.

Did the bullet "come apart"? You BET!

Now, Michael has said regarding the Partition "you haven't seen much." But given what I've seen with the A-frame, I might just prefer the greater fragmentation of the partition's front core & better expansion at low velocities.

My .002

friar

A 300g Swift A-Frame from a 375 H&H Rem factory round (horrors) took my brown bear at 13 yards, a front quartering shot. Broke his right front shoulder, tore up both lungs, penetrated his left rear thigh and ended up resting against his hide. It weighed 299.5g after recovery.





Classic bullet performance, but as you mentioned there are cases where the lead squeezes out of the bottom. That could be fixed, but it would be more expensive. I don't think they expand as well at longer ranges (500 yards plus) as the Partitions but most of us don't take shots that far. I certainly don't anymore. The real trick is to make a bullet that handles close range impact at very high velocity on bone well (expands, penetrates and holds together) and expands at lower velocities (1700 fps) at longer ranges as well. That has always been the goal of the Partition, that's why the front will melt away on close impact shots. They almost always penetrate at close range and cause devastating damage, almost always.

I haven't used them, but the North Fork bonded bullets seem to have solved even these issues. The rear is solid, the front half is bonded and stays together. From what I've heard on this forum and others, the expansion is reliable over a great range of velocities.

I'm going to try them in my 270 Weatherby and 500 Jeffery.

How common, I've seen many reports on multiple forums regarding this issue.

I suspect Barnes is somewhat aware of the issue, and may be part of why the recommend dropping down a bullet weight.....inorder to keep the velocity up, and increase the possibility of proper expansion.

For these reasons I would not consider Barnes bullets for a long range rifle.

First of all,thats one heck of a Bull.I am glad he got it.I think that you can have bullet failure with just about any brand if you shoot them enough.It falls under Murphys law!!!!

I'm not sure why but Barnes X bullets and the like are just bad ju ju for me. I have tried them in a 243 both 70 and 90 grn, .308 in 125 and 150 grn and .375 H&H with 300 grn. Pigs and deer with the smaller calibers, pass throughs with little internal damage and caliber sized exits. Looong tracking and pure luck sometimes on recoveries. The .375 was used on a big eland, open, no brush, hit on the point of the shoulder quartering to me. The bullet bent and traveled down the length of the leg and was recovered. A tricky tracking job and a finisher with a .338 with a plain jane 250 hornady ended it. They work, I have no doubt at all, they just dont work for me.

We tried Barnes X once. Had a Barnes pinhole a buck at 80-100 yards with a 3006. It ran down the ridge and another hunter shot it. We walked down to see what happened and found a pencil hole in one side and out the other. No blood but it would have killed the buck. Some might boohoo about it, but it is all Partitions here for me. I like a bullet that puts energy into an animal and not just designed to pass through.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

there's no better big game bullet on the planet than a partition

You don't get out much do you? If that is the best you have seen, you have not seen much either!

Michael

I'm not claiming to be an expert, as I can learn something everyday on the subject from lots of folks. I've only seen a total of some 200 dead animals. Probably not as much as you, huh? I've guided enough hunters, and shot enough stuff to know what works or not.

Here's a sample......from 2006


November 2011

quote:

I'm not claiming to be an expert, as I can learn something everyday on the subject from lots of folks. I've only seen a total of some 200 dead animals. Probably not as much as you, huh? I've guided enough hunters, and shot enough stuff to know what works or not.

I am no expert either, just a student of. So it's good to hear that you are capable of learning something. 200 deer size animals don't say much, don't take a lot of bullet to do that. Nosler Partitions were good for the day, but that day has been passed a long time ago. Of course, for deer they would be fine, I would probably bypass the Nosler for that work and go with a Hornady Interlock, a lot more transfer of trauma. Deer don't need super bullets, but super bullets can still be used to good effect, Swifts, Woodleighs, and even the Barnes TSX, North Forks are incredible, and even the mighty BBW#13. You have heard of these other bullets, yes? So 200 deer with Nosler Partitions! Funny, you have never seen anything else used?

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

I'm not claiming to be an expert, as I can learn something everyday on the subject from lots of folks. I've only seen a total of some 200 dead animals. Probably not as much as you, huh? I've guided enough hunters, and shot enough stuff to know what works or not.

I am no expert either, just a student of. So it's good to hear that you are capable of learning something. 200 deer size animals don't say much, don't take a lot of bullet to do that. Nosler Partitions were good for the day, but that day has been passed a long time ago. Of course, for deer they would be fine, I would probably bypass the Nosler for that work and go with a Hornady Interlock, a lot more transfer of trauma. Deer don't need super bullets, but super bullets can still be used to good effect, Swifts, Woodleighs, and even the Barnes TSX, North Forks are incredible, and even the mighty BBW#13. You have heard of these other bullets, yes? So 200 deer with Nosler Partitions! Funny, you have never seen anything else used?

Michael

Michael,

Being a Texan myself, I can tell you that West Texas is a big place. But, it ain't THAT big!1

You made my point exactly in that deer just don't take that much to put down. Really not much of a test for a premium bullet. The Partition being a semi premium at best, would be expected to do well on these types of game animals. Of course bullets like the TSX and North Forks are quantum leaps ahead in technology and dependability over the Partitions but even they have been surpassed now with the CEB BBW#13 Non-Cons.

A few pictures here and there are nice to look at (we all have them, and many MUCH larger than deer) but I would suggest for anyone really wanting to learn about advancements in today's bullet designs, go over to the "Big Bore" thread under the "Rifles" section of this forum. The Sticky thread titled "Terminal Bullet Performance" that is now running 260 pages long, is IMO, the best most educational thread on the entire forum. I'm thinking many who are not into Big Bore rifles may have not read it yet but it is very informative, and applicable for smaller calibers. In addition, the little brother thread under "Double Rifles" titled "Double Rifle Bullet of the Future" has really good information as well.

When Michael458 says he isn't a bullet expert, well ... most on this forum would beg to differ. Some may not agree with all the virtues of the CEB Non-Con or even the BBW#13 Solid, but it would be hard for anyone on this thread, or anywhere else for that matter to argue against the sheer volume and expertise of bullet testing he has performed at his own expense. I know I've learned a hell of a lot from him.

Glad I could humor you boys. I've got hundreds of pics, many of much bigger stuff, but I certainly won't waste any more of mine, or you self absorbed boys' time. Keep telling yourselves how smart you are....it's humorous. Adios Amigos.


michael458, I said 200 dead animals, including lots and lots of bullets, not just partitions, and not just deer. Read slower next time. Feel free to post pics of your 200" muleys. I love big mule deer.

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
self absorbed

Yep, that's what I was thinking as well!

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
Glad I could humor you boys. I've got hundreds of pics, many of much bigger stuff, but I certainly won't waste any more of mine, or you self absorbed boys' time. Keep telling yourselves how smart you are....it's humorous. Adios Amigos.


michael458, I said 200 dead animals, including lots and lots of bullets, not just partitions, and not just deer. Read slower next time. Feel free to post pics of your 200" muleys. I love big mule deer.

Sorry to disappoint JG, I don't hunt or care to shoot deer things! I did shoot a moose once! And a few other antler things, but I don't have any interest much in "muleys", and certainly not 200 of them. My Uncle had a mule when I was a kid, his name was Jack! I even had the great experience of logging with that muley, and plowed the garden once with him! That's about the extent of my "muley" experience. Deer things don't excite me. But I can post many photos of bears, lions, cougars, hippos, elephants, lots and lots of buffalo, leopard, even muskoz, bison, hundreds of impala, zebra, kudu, eland, and other odd antelopes, but in the end, what the hell does that prove? In many ways, I think that is being an ass about things. And I won't go there as I have no need to prove anything, and certainly not in that sort of manner.

I have shot animals with many different bullets, but more than that, I have tested any and all bullets that I might would have taken to the field far before hand to understand how they work. Mostly big bore stuff as that is where most of my interests are. But I do sometimes do some small bore such as 338 and what have you.

As for the real issue at hand, Disappointing Barnes Bullet Performance, this can occur with any bullet ever made, regardless. Even the ones I have designed and worked with over the last few years. Things in the field happen, hit a limb, twig, impact velocity too low, too high, too this, too that, and yes things can go wrong. One must know the limitations of the bullet they are working with in the field, and understand the mission at hand. Shooting "mules" can even present a challenge I suppose, but if you choose the right bullet for any mission at hand you reduce your chances of failure. A nosler partition is probably a decent deer thing bullet, and has worked just fine, however I would want something a bit more substantial moving to larger animals, elk, moose, eland, wildebeast, zebra and such. I have used Nosler Partitions in several smaller bore rifles, 338 and 358 and quite honest I was very disappointed in the amount of penetration. I don't care for the "wiping" action, the nose just wipes off, and not really conducive to inflicting trauma on larger animals. With conventional bullets I would much rather have either a Barnes TSX which I have used with success, Swift A Frames, Woodleighs, and if I were choosing a conventional premium bullet today, it would be nothing but a North Fork Premium.

In fact, I worked with North Fork to design several different .474 and .500 caliber bullets for my rifles, 3 that are very fine Premium Bonded bullets. I await deliver now of a 400 gr .500 caliber bullet that I know is just going to be superb. The others are .474 - .500 caliber CPES and FPS bullets, of which we used several on a recent buffalo hunt where we took 31 buffalo testing various different NonConventional and Conventional Bullets. I also have worked very close with Cutting Edge Bullets with the BBW#13 Solids and NonCons, that were designed right here at my facility, and every bullet in all the various calibers have been tested here before going to market. If they don't pass the tests here, they don't go to market. This includes the new small bore bullets the Raptors in calibers .224 up to .510 caliber.


I can't post my photos of 200 Muleys, if that somehow makes you feel better, then I don't mind if you post all your 200 Muleys however. I am also happy you "love them so good". Maybe you can tell us what other sorts of bullets you used besides a Partition? You say "Lots and Lots".

Funny thing is Raider, and maybe you can help me understand this point. Seems that 4 days ago you were at 100 animals? Today, it's 200? Now I don't know about most folks, but thats some damn fine shooting to be done in 4 days! In fact, I could get interested in that kind of shooting, would you please tell me where you went to do that, and how much it costs, cause I love to shoot, and this sounds like it is right up my alley! I would love to get in on 100 animals or so in 4 days! That would be Fun! The closest I have ever come to that was 18 animals in 4 days a few years ago, which included anything from impala to eland. And 3 years ago I did 27 buffalo in 10 days, but two of those days I spent in camp with a sick wife, so really only 8 days. This 100 animals of yours in 4 days sounds like BIG FUN to me! I am ready, point me in the right direction!

quote:

JGRaider
one of us
Posted Sep 30, 2012 9:55 PM Hide Post

I agree Hunter. I love hearing these stories and seeing pics of people with dead animals and "failed" bullets. As I posted in another thread....120+ head of game seen personally killed with NP's, up to elk sized game, and zero problems. 100+ are mine.

I've never seen a "smart" guy so dense. I said, and once again I urge you to go back aand read slowly.......100+ are mine, 200 includes the hunters I've guided. All this over 41 years in the field. Evident'y your bullet comprehension skills far exceed your reading comprehension skills. I said "adios amigos" because I didn't intend to respond to this nonsense any more. I'm disappointed in myself.......

Actually JGRaider, I don't think its related to a reading comprehension issue as much as it is a "math" issue!

quote:

I"ve seen probably 120+ animals killed with partitions, among them some 75+ aoudad.

quote:

I've only seen a total of some 200 dead animals.

Then you make reference to "My photos 200 Muleys", which would infer something other than stated above, inferring you had taken 200 muleys you had photos of?

And then this statement made 4 days ago.

quote:

As I posted in another thread....120+ head of game seen personally killed with NP's, up to elk sized game, and zero problems. 100+ are mine.

So I do have to admit, I was never really good at higher math, and While most references are somewhere in the neighborhood of 120 to 220 animals, I just got confused is all!

I take it that something along the lines of 200 total animals, 120 or so with Noslers, amongst the 120, 75 of that aoudad, 100 of that 120 is yours, and 80 animals with other unknown bullets, and have photos of 200 Muleys!

Seems to me on some of your other threads, you know, the ones where you are way out of your depth, that you accuse them of having reading comprehension issues as well. How strange. And I also see you are very well versed in your spanish as well, as you seem to use that term "Adios Amigos" quite a bit too.

Well since you won't be back, and have bid us good bye, good luck with those muleys! Would not want you to disappoint yourself further you know!

Michael

Wow, just wow....I'll type slowly just for you. One more time, go back and read.

"I said 120+ killed with partitions........" 100+ are mine, with all bullets including partitions.

"I've only seen a total of some 200 dead animals......." This means total with all bullets including partitions.

"Feel free to post pics of your 200" muleys. I love big mule deer...... " 200 inch muleys, which is what the " means.

Clear as mud to you? BTW, disappointed in myself......... again


Remember you went on attack first, unprovoked I might add when you posted: "You don't get out much do you? If that is the best you have seen, you have not seen much either!

Michael"

Good try though!

quote:

200 inch muleys,

JH Christ! A muley that is over 16 ft long!!!!! My god man, they must feed those things good where you come from! I will honestly say, I have never in my life seen a 16 ft long deer thing! Maybe I am missing out on something? That sounds rather dangerous to me. Might be more fun than I have given credit to.



Attack? Statement of fact I reckon. There are so many far superior bullets these days, and the best you can come up with is a 60 year old design? How is that an attack? I am trying to get you to broaden you horizons. To open up to options you never considered. To think outside the box, instead of locking yourself in a 60 yr old box. One makes a strong statement as you have made, I would want clarity of how you come to that conclusion, and all the other bullets that you have seen. Some hard data would be good as well. Some comparisons with direct data on how one comes to such conclusions is needed with a statement like that. What do you have to compare to? What is your data base? No attack man, not at all. Just expect when you make a strong statement like that, someone is going to want to know how you come about that, I am that someone.

Michael