My boss (Jeff) just got back from a Utah elk hunt with one of our outfitters. I've got a long range custom 300 and he wanted to make sure he had the appropriate weapon for the tag because it's very tough to draw, so I gladly loaned him my rifle. My gun shoots 180 grain Barnes Triple shock and drives tacks with them. I took my Ibex with them and so far about 10 other big game animals and have been pleased with the results including at long range, but Jeff's elk was a different story.

He shot the bull quartering away at 353 yards, hitting him about 12" behind the right shoulder and driving the bullet all the way through the elk and resting under the skin right behind the far shoulder. When the went to where the elk was shot there was no blood, and after finding blood about 50 yards away it was very sparse. Fearing it was a gut shot, they backed out and came back 4 hours later only to find the elk about 1/4 mile away and still alive (kind of). He put another bullet in him and had a bull that he'll likely never top (photo below). When they skinned the bull, they found the bullet under the skin on the opposite side basically unchanged minus a small deformity in the tip.

My question is this - How common is this and what is your take on why it happened? Obviously I'm a little hesitant to use these bullets again. If the guides weren't great trackers they probably wouldn't have found the bull.

Photo of the bullet:




And Jeff with the bull:

Who made the gun? I know Dan Atwood makes custom long range guns and only recommends TTSX's, and I have seen the bullets retrieved from several big game animals to include Cape Buff, Brown Bear, and others. In every instance, the bullets mushroom / pedalled as expected.

What you saw with this elk must be an anomonoly

Mike

Greg,

Try reporting in the Medium Bore Rifles or the Reloading section for more hits on this. This is a first time I have seen this.


Be interesting to hear from others..

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
Who made the gun? I know Dan Atwood makes custom long range guns and only recommends TTSX's, and I have seen the bullets retrieved from several big game animals to include Cape Buff, Brown Bear, and others. In every instance, the bullets mushroom / pedalled as expected.

What you saw with this elk must be an anomonoly

Mike

MG arms out of Texas. I've heard people complain about Barnes bullets but hadn't actually seen this sort of thing so kind of wrote it off based on personal experience.

Again, great performance on everything from Impala to Ibex so this shocked me a little.

Thanks!

Greg

I witnessed a buddy shoot an antelope at approximately 300 yds. with a 300 Win Mag and Barnes triple shock bullet. He hit it twice and we recovered one of the bullets that looked a lot like your bullet, but was just bent over like a banana. I had the bullet in my hand and called it a complete failure. 

I had the same thing happen with a kudu. We figured out that the bullet had clipped a bush, we even found the sheared off twig, in front of the kudu and started to tumble. Scroll down to the kudu in this report for pictures. http://www.accuratereloading.com/lh7.html

Haven't seen this although there have been other posts about problems with Barnes. I have been using Barnes almost exclusively for about 25 years and can't recall ever recovering a bullet, they always pass through.
Helluva elk!

I also have never had that happen. I have been using Barnes for YEARS and very seldom ever get a chance to recover one. Perhaps a mischarged case.....

I have had trouble with the TSS out of my 270. Zero blood. I have stopped using them all together.

The failure wasn't because it failed to pass completely through the elk, the failure was the fact that it didn't open up / expand. 

have been using them on camels haven't recovered one yet or actualy tried, did the said bullet hit bone as I've had lots of straigt throughs

my utah elk last year at 320 yds using federal premium 180 TSX, perfect mushroom, as advertised. After impact, the elk traveled in a 15 yd circle and piled up.

Is it possible that the bullet didnt hit anything with mass, then slowed down and didnt have the velocity to expand?

My guess would be the nose had been battered and the hollow point was closed up a bit.
The TSX has become one of my favorite Bullets.

quote:

What you saw with this elk must be an anomonoly

Mike

Hardly... Barnes X,TSX,TTSX's not opening like that in the picture is fairly common IMO. Most aren't aware of it happening as the bullet usually zips on through and is not recovered, Occasionally they're recovered like the one in the photo.

If they don't open up, they are more likely to exit.

465H&H

Greg, there are a few reports of the same performance here on AR concerning the TSX bullet. However, I've been shooting Barnes X and TSX exclusively since the mid 90's and have never had anything but excellent results. Just recently started shooting CEB. Very strange. I've used them in .243, .277, .284, .308 (06 and 300 mags), .338, .375, .416, .458, and .510. Never had one do anything but exactly what they are supposed to do and that runs the gamut from Whitetails, Elk, Moose, Caribou, Plains Game from Steinbuck to Eland and Giraffe, Buffalo, Lion, and Leopard. Never had one fail.

One question. I have no explanation as to why this would matter at all but it does seem that the other reports of TSX bullets to open have been with factory ammo. Any chance this was a factory load. Again, I don't know why that would make a difference but it is something that has been alluded to previously.

I think the 180gr TSX bullet would have expanded nicely if it were shot from about 100yds and at over 3000fps.Anyways,I don`t think you had the right medicine for a 400lbs+ animal at 400yds.I would go with the 375RUM and a muzzle break or a helmet.

Also,when at the range,just look at the bullets you recover from the backstop and you will see what a difference only 50yds can make on expansion.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Greg, there are a few reports of the same performance here on AR concerning the TSX bullet. However, I've been shooting Barnes X and TSX exclusively since the mid 90's and have never had anything but excellent results. Just recently started shooting CEB. Very strange. I've used them in .243, .277, .284, .308 (06 and 300 mags), .338, .375, .416, .458, and .510. Never had one do anything but exactly what they are supposed to do and that runs the gamut from Whitetails, Elk, Moose, Caribou, Plains Game from Steinbuck to Eland and Giraffe, Buffalo, Lion, and Leopard. Never had one fail.

One question. I have no explanation as to why this would matter at all but it does seem that the other reports of TSX bullets to open have been with factory ammo. Any chance this was a factory load. Again, I don't know why that would make a difference but it is something that has been alluded to previously.

Todd,did you ever have a factory load that did not shoot the bullet like it was supposed to.?

It's interesting how the complaint stories about Barnes bullets so often end with a recovered animal (that's a terrific elk BTW, congrats to the hunter). My bullet complaint stories have always been about super-accurate (and super-frangible) cup and core bullets that had trouble making it to the vitals. In which case the animals may not have been recovered had it not been for subsequent shots (often with a different type of bullet).

We have been required by law to use only non-lead bullets in this area since '08 and a bunch of our clients brought Barnes long before the law went through. Since the law changed, at least 95% of my clients have brought TSX bullets. Other than a couple petals that have ripped off here or there over the years, all the recovered bullets have mushroomed perfectly. I guess that it's possible one doesn't open once in a while, but I sure haven't seen it in any of the animals I've skinned.

While I wish we weren't required by law to shoot non-lead here, I've sure been impressed with the significant penetration of the copper bullets. I think I'd rather have an occasional "penciled" bullet than the trouble we used to have with some of the frangible bullets that came apart way too soon and didn't make it to the vitals at odd angles. On the rare instance that it may happen, a small hole all the way through the vitals is much better than a shallow, large diameter hole in the guts.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Greg, there are a few reports of the same performance here on AR concerning the TSX bullet. However, I've been shooting Barnes X and TSX exclusively since the mid 90's and have never had anything but excellent results. Just recently started shooting CEB. Very strange. I've used them in .243, .277, .284, .308 (06 and 300 mags), .338, .375, .416, .458, and .510. Never had one do anything but exactly what they are supposed to do and that runs the gamut from Whitetails, Elk, Moose, Caribou, Plains Game from Steinbuck to Eland and Giraffe, Buffalo, Lion, and Leopard. Never had one fail.

One question. I have no explanation as to why this would matter at all but it does seem that the other reports of TSX bullets to open have been with factory ammo. Any chance this was a factory load. Again, I don't know why that would make a difference but it is something that has been alluded to previously.

Todd,did you ever have a factory load that did not shoot the bullet like it was supposed to.?

No Shoots. I have not. I haven't shot a factory round with very few exceptions since 1983. Again, as I said, I have no idea why a factory loaded TSX would behave differently than a hand loaded TSX, but from some of the other threads on AR where problems with the TSX opening correctly have been reported, most if not all have been factory loads. Doesn't make any sense but that's what's been reported.

Exceptional Elk. The shooter was very lucky as he essentially shot it w/ a solid. 353 yds is a good distance. I do not know your cartridge or bullet speed at that distance, but would think the bullet should have expanded. Try a Nosler Partition(or Accubond). You will get expansion----every time.

No expansion this is for sure evident.

The bullet obviously expelled 100% of its energy into the elk as it didn't pass through

What is your chrono'd fps from this load so we can run a energy on it at 400

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
I had the same thing happen with a kudu. We figured out that the bullet had clipped a bush, we even found the sheared off twig, in front of the kudu and started to tumble. Scroll down to the kudu in this report for pictures. http://www.accuratereloading.com/lh7.html

I have never heard of barnes failing like this, but tumpleing of the bullet sound like an explanation!

Did you check the entrance hole, Greg?

In the last 10 years of guiding, I've tracked several deer/elk/sheep. A disproportionate number of the animals I've tracked were shot with Barnes X. They usually work but I prefer a bullet that always works, TBBC or Acubond.

Sure is a great looking elk.

Seems odd to me, in the last 5 years I have used Barnes exclusively in my magnum rounds and have yet to have to even look for an animal(including elk, antelope, black bear, kudu, zebra...all in all about 40 big game animals). Have recovered only 4 but all four are perfect examples of the x shape, like off the website perfect. Following the advice of a member here I have stuck with using it only in larger calibers(.308 or bigger)that have adequate speed, the round he shot should have definitely had adequate speed for expansion. As for failures, any bullet will fail given the right circumstances, but I for one will not go throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Assuming that you started the bullet out at around 3150 fps, at 353 yards it should still have been going over 2600 fps. A solid with that little expansion should have penciled right through him.

Barnes bullets usually will expand down to 1800 fps. It would be very interesting to have you saw the bullet in half and see if there's anything wrong with the cavity in the nose from the manufacturing process, or if there's some sort of foreign material in there. That could explain why it didn't expand, but not why it wouldn't fully penetrate.

Is it possible that you might have hit something that would have caused the bullet to tumble and lose velocity before impacting the animal? That could explain why it didn't zip right though or expand.

Just to be clear, I don't consider my experience a bullet failure. I think that most other bullets in the same conditions would have resulted in a wound rather than a kill. I still use Barnes in all my medium and small bore rifles, but I am probably going to go with Northfork or CEBs for my big bores.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

One question. I have no explanation as to why this would matter at all but it does seem that the other reports of TSX bullets to open have been with factory ammo. Any chance this was a factory load. Again, I don't know why that would make a difference but it is something that has been alluded to previously.

Todd,

It was actually a custom loaded bullet from MG Arms. I've shot probably 150 of these rounds through the rifle including range time and they've been incredible accurate, but until now have not recovered a bullet other than on a blue wildebeest in Zim (perfect mushroom).

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
No expansion this is for sure evident.

The bullet obviously expelled 100% of its energy into the elk as it didn't pass through

What is your chrono'd fps from this load so we can run a energy on it at 400

Ted,

The Chrono'd fps is 3080fps at the muzzle.

Hi Greg,

Great bull.

While any bullet can fail given the right circumstances, this is not that uncommon with hollow points.

If you have the want to try something different, please give us a try. Many hunters use our bullets for Africa and trust their lives to them, but when it comes to a once and a life hunt or that hugh trophy, having a bullet that you are 100% confident in is just one less worry.

Please do your research on our products and don't believe anything I tell you. But you will not find a failure of our bullet to expand or to shoot accurately.

Regards,
John
North Fork Technologies
www.northforkbullets.com

Do you know if perhaps the round had been cycled in and out of the magazine a bunch of times, and possibly ended up with a damaged tip?

Regardless, a nonexpanding solid like that should have penetrated through the animal at that velocity, unless it was tumbling or some such thing. I think that there had to be more than one failure to cause this issue.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Do you know if perhaps the round had been cycled in and out of the magazine a bunch of times, and possibly ended up with a damaged tip?

Regardless, a nonexpanding solid like that should have penetrated through the animal at that velocity, unless it was tumbling or some such thing. I think that there had to be more than one failure to cause this issue.

I kind of thought the same thing. He said it traveled basically from a few inches in front of the left hip up into the front right shoulder cavity, but given that it didn't expand you'd think it would pass through.

Jeff said the entry wound was round and did not appear that the bullet had tumbled.

quote:

My question is this - How common is this and what is your take on why it happened

I've been using Barnes since 1992, and have only recovered one Barnes, a 140gr X out of an elk. It has picture perfect expansion and 100% weight retention.

More importantly, I have not had to track an animal since then. I've had one cow elk travel about 8-10 steps after impact, most others only a few feet or they drop at impact.

As to what happened, maybe there was foreign material in the hollowpoint cavity from his pockets, or the bullet hit some leaves/brush before it got to the elk.

Either way, it's one very nice bull. Congrats to him.

I have 4 recovered 9.3x62 launched 250 gr original X's from bushbuck, eland, doubled cow/bull kudu's and gemsbuck. All but the eland one could be used in a Barnes ad. All were dead within 15 yards, a couple at the shot. The eland slug lost two metals on a 40 yard high shoulder shot. I have one recovered 185 gr 338-06 launched TSX from a large bull elk at 280 yards. Literal bang/flop. Looks like a wadcutter with all petals gone. I have one 35 Whelen launched 225 gr TSX recovered from a moose at 150 yards. Looks like the same wadcutter as the 338-06 bullet. We recently used a 358 Win launched 200 gr TTSX on a typical plains game hunt (10 animals) up to wildebeest, gemsbuck and kudu. All but one passed through with quick kills. The one recovered went lengthwise though a warthog and was recovered in his hip. About a 120 yard shot. Again photo ad perfect. So far, so good for me.

I've used the Barnes TSX on +/- 50 head of African PG in 30, 338, and 35 cal over the years. MV in the 180gr 30 cal was 3100fps. In the 338 and 35, mv was 2550fps, using 225gr bullets.

I've recovered about 15 of those bullets. About half are 30 cals from a 300 Wea and are classic magazine ad examples. Ranges varied, of course, but only one animal was shot at more than 200 yards. The bullets were still traveling very fast upon impact.

The others were from a 338/06 and a 35Whelen, and look very similar to yours. They failed to fully expand. All were recovered from animals shot at distances +/- 175 yards. The bullets started at modest velocity and were slowing rapidly upon impact.

A few did some very strange things as they traveled through the animals. Some made 90 degree turns, others tumbled, others yawed.

But.....they all killed.

My lay-theory is that the performance of the Barnes TSX is velocity-dependent, and critically so. But it's only a guess based upon relatively limited field experience.

BTW, I have since changed to the tipped Barnes X in my 300 Wea and have recovered about 20% of the bullets from the PG I've taken over my last two trips. All looked like the Barnes ads.

Another lay-opinion of mine is that the plastic tip helps to initiate expansion more rapidly, making the tipped bullet superior to the TSX.

Next year I'm going exclusively with Swift A-Frames. Just for the sake of change.

Regards........TWL

I don't really have a dog in this fight as I think Barnes bullets are fine but no better than others at killing big game.

I do have to laugh when all of us think we know the Gospel truth about a bullet after killing 1-10 animals with it. It's just statistically not an accurate sample.

I'd like to hear from some more longtime guides like Pancho who have seen at least 100 animals taken with a barnes and at least 100 animals taken with led bullets.

1-I'd like to know if one consistently shoots more accurately?

2-I'd like to know if one puts more animals on the ground than others?


To me bullet performance has nothing to do with mushrooms and everything to do with did my knife get used on the hunt.

quote:

I kind of thought the same thing. He said it traveled basically from a few inches in front of the left hip up into the front right shoulder cavity, but given that it didn't expand you'd think it would pass through.

On a bull that size, about how long was the wound channel? Three feet maybe 4 feet total?

That much travel on a broad side shot would have exited. Also, hitting a few inches in front of the hip, would indicate a gut shot, not a lot of heavy muscle or bone involved, just skin/light muscle and guts and gut contents.

The bullet did not perform as it should have, but looking at the location of the hit and the travel distance inside the body cavity, I feel that it was more of a case of shot placement than real bullet failure. JMO.

OP, send the pic and the facts to barnes and tell us what they say. might be interesting.