I have been hunting East Tx for over 20 years. Mostly in the areas from 50 miles South of Marshall (measured from I-20) to 30 miles North of Marshall. In that time, I have only seen a couple of White Tail that an average hunter could recognize as being over 13 inches (Inside spread).
Texas has instituted a minimum in a number of East Texas counties. I think this is the second year with that minimum.
Do other East Tx hunters believe that the minimum will result in many fewer deer taken.

How do you get them to hold still so's you can measure them???

So what if its 12 3/4"????Do you get a fine????I have seen some Bucks with Big racks that only measure 14 or 15 inches inside spread.Kind of a ridiculous requirement.

I think it is a wonderful requirement. If the rack isn't important, shoot the does for the meat. The bucks can't get get bigger racks unless you give them the opportunity. !3" is as wide as the outside of the ears.
Butch

If you obey the rule you will start seeing more very big bucks in the future....

One of the better bucks I've killed only has a 13in. spread. It sports a lot of horn with hight, long points, and mass. He was a 4 1/2 year old.

Spread, in my opinion, is only empty air.

Joe A.

Here are a couple of bucks that I have been watching since July in Nacogdoches county.

I am not necessarily a fan of the antler restrictions, but I do believe there needs to be some way to give young bucks a chance to grow.

My brother and I have been hunting the same property since 1994, and we have been following our own self imposed management plan ever since. We get LAMPS permits for does and pass young bucks. We weigh every deer and have seen an increase in body weight and antler quality.




Here is one I killed in 2009 with a 19 inch spread that scored 138".

On average a buck with less than 13 inch spread will be a 1.5 or 2.5 year old deer. Antler restrictions like this can help to balance the age class distribution resulting in more bucks in the older age classes.

However, if such restrictions are left in place too long, over time, they can adversely impact the genetics of a deer herd for many years. A restriction on spread alone protects deer like a 4.5 year old spike I killed two yr. ago and can promote "high horn" genetics like the buck mentioned in a previous post. In some clubs where high horns are not considered desirable, they attempt to offset that with a beam length allowance such as 18 inches. So a 12 inch spread 4 pt. buck with 18 in. beam length can be killed with no penalty. This can all get complicated, especially on public land where hunters argue over the number of points a buck has while it is dead in the back of a pickup.

I have a nice little 2.5 yr. old ten point rack with a 12.75 inch spread. Does a 12 year old have to pass on that one in East TX? Antler restrictions have a way of taking the enjoyment out of the hunt for folks who just want to get outside with or without kids and go hunting and maybe kill a deer as a bonus.

For the trophy seekers, antler restrictions are fine and generally desirable on private clubs; let them do whatever they want. But to understand what restrictions to implement usually requires some professional guidance and data collection.

On public land a random harvest (or kill) of bucks and roughly an equal number of does to bucks killed each year has been shown to maintain good antler quality, age class distribution, and good herd health for many years on the 150,000 acre White River NWR in Arkansas. The data taken from the present back to 1960 is there to prove it.

Imposing antler restrictions without any data to back them up is not the way to go. That is why there are no antler restrictions on National Wildlife Refuges in Arkansas. The Arkansas Game and Fish Commission staff studied the White River data and determined that no antler restrictions were necessary on refuges but still has them statewide (3 pt. rule) and more complicated ones that require a long range tape measure on state owned WMA's with no data to back them up.

Merg

Obviously intended to protect young deer. The 13 inch rule is about as simple as they can make it. After all asking one of these East Texas guys to age a deer is not really practical.

I couldn't help myself.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
I think it is a wonderful requirement. If the rack isn't important, shoot the does for the meat. The bucks can't get get bigger racks unless you give them the opportunity. !3" is as wide as the outside of the ears.
Butch

That would be fine except many counties over here allow does by permit only, and getting a permit can be problematic at best.

TX had to do something. Too many young deer were getting taken the quality and quantity were dwindling. I lived in Nac. and graduated from SFA. I've seen what's out there.

Too many hunters walking out of the woods holding their deer up with just one fist.

I have never understood why the hell a hunter would ever consider shooting a 1.5-3.5 year old deer or any animal that is not mature. What sport is there in killing an animal with not enough years under its belt to be weary. Sure, kids would like to kill something but part of taking youngins hunting is teaching them why you shoot or don't shoot something.

And for you guys knocking the rule because one out of 10 million mature bucks has a spread under 13" is ridiculous.

Bottom line is the state had to do something because the hunters in the eastern part of our state can't let a deer get 5.5 years old.


Perry

To me it is a two edged sword. Yes, it may give a 1.5 yr old buck the chance to get bigger and yes, younger bucks need to be given the chance to grow, but it's forcing some people to be "Trophy Hunters" when they dont want to be.

Also, I've seen some mature bucks with heavy or tall racks but almost no width on their anlters so I don't think that using width alone is a good idea.

Further, at 200+yds a buck that is facing away from you looks wider than he really is and he's constantly moving so it's hard to judge.

To an 8yr old kid out with his dad, who may onle be able to take him hunting a few times during season, a 6pt with a 12 inch spread is just as big a trophy as a 12 pt with 24 inches of width.

I also believe it will lead to some folks not reporting or tagging bucks that they've killed if they make a mistake. Not condoning it, just saying that it may happen.
I've talked to several Biologist privately about it and 2 of the 3 that I talked to don't like it because it will have negative long term affects on deer and deer hunting.
Game Wardens and other Biologist will say that it's working because they are Supposed to say that it's working.
I definately do not agree with it.

Ryan,

I think they made the fine so small that it may discourage guys from ground checking and walking away. It is not that big of a deal if you are caught with an undersized buck. Can't remember the details but it is not that bad.

I agree, this is not the best rule, but I think the net result may be beneficial.

quote:

Originally posted by Ryan Campbell:
To me it is a two edged sword. Yes, it may give a 1.5 yr old buck the chance to get bigger and yes, younger bucks need to be given the chance to grow, but it's forcing some people to be "Trophy Hunters" when they dont want to be.

Also, I've seen some mature bucks with heavy or tall racks but almost no width on their anlters so I don't think that using width alone is a good idea.

Further, at 200+yds a buck that is facing away from you looks wider than he really is and he's constantly moving so it's hard to judge.

To an 8yr old kid out with his dad, who may onle be able to take him hunting a few times during season, a 6pt with a 12 inch spread is just as big a trophy as a 12 pt with 24 inches of width.

I also believe it will lead to some folks not reporting or tagging bucks that they've killed if they make a mistake. Not condoning it, just saying that it may happen.
I've talked to several Biologist privately about it and 2 of the 3 that I talked to don't like it because it will have negative long term affects on deer and deer hunting.
Game Wardens and other Biologist will say that it's working because they are Supposed to say that it's working.
I definately do not agree with it.

I strongly disagree, it does not force anyone to be a trophy hunter. It forces people to shoot older deer. Not all old deer are trophies but they are ALWAYS bigger than they were when they were immature. I go back to my original statement that part of hunting is teaching kids/new hunters to shoot the right type of animals. If hunters would, by and large, shoot mature bucks there would be A LOT MORE mature deer to choose from. Which would then allow all hunters to choose whether or not they wanted a trophy.
Seeing hunters kill immature animals makes me sick. It absolutely robs the animal the chance to grow to it's potential, trophy or not.

Perry

Perry,

If you make a kid pass the first two or three branched antlered bucks he/she see's, then the majority of them will be more prone to stay home. The ones that can continually pass small bucks before seeing a mature buck are the exception.

A 5.5 year old buck is a very rare animal to see on public lands in the ArkLaTex area or anywhere short of intensively managed clubs. With a little bit of hunting pressure, bucks at that age tend to go noctural. We see them on cameras but only at night except during the peak rut.

Let kids get some blood on their hands and then they will be more receptive to progress to a higher skill level.

Ryan has it right.

You are not seeing the bigger picture. If you DISCIPLINE yourself and others to shoot mature bucks only there will be mature bucks for kids to shoot at. If kids need blood on their hands let them shoot javelina, does, rabbits and hogs. Kids need to learn early it is a priviledge to shoot a buck.

Perry

While it may not be perfect, I am here to tell you that the 13-inch rule does indeed work. It's been in place where I live for maybe 5 or 6 years, and the results are already being seen. FINALLY, you are seeing some older bucks. Before the rule was implemented, too many people around here shot the first antlered whitetail they saw, and it was rare to see even a 2.5 year-old buck. Heck, it was rare to see any buck, period, as the county was badly overhunted.

For those saying it is not fair to the youngsters, they can still shoot a spike or a buck with at least one unbranched antler. But like Perry noted, it we adhere to the rule, there WILL be older bucks available for them to shoot as well.

Granted, the system is not perfect. But something needed to be done...

On the farm which we live, I did not shoot a buck at all from 1981 through 2007 because all you'd see would be little spikes or forkhorns. No, I am not a trophy hunter, but I do believe in letting the animals mature and help the herd (unfortunately, I was in the minority). Anyway, after the rule was in place a couple of years, the results became obvious.

Here are bucks from '08 and '09. And keep in mind these bucks were harvested during a record-setting 28-month drought.

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
You are not seeing the bigger picture. If you DISCIPLINE yourself and others to shoot mature bucks only there will be mature bucks for kids to shoot at. If kids need blood on their hands let them shoot javelina, does, rabbits and hogs. Kids need to learn early it is a priviledge to shoot a buck.

Perry

My sentiments exactly. If you want good deer hunting of quality bucks you have to quite shooting 1 1/2 year old bucks. IMHO They should make this law statewide. In a lot of areas most of the bucks are being killed during doe season when their horns don't even break the hairline. Then they complain that there aren't any good bucks around. Duh

they have a new proposed law in east texas countys that only alows the shooting of mature male squirells. as a follow up to this law

quote:

Originally posted by CRUSHER:
they have a new proposed law in east texas countys that only alows the shooting of mature male squirells. as a follow up to this law

Ear spread has to be at least 1.7"

Perry

NO YOU GO SHAKE THE TREE HE IS IN AND SEE IF YOU HEAR HIS NUTS RATTLE.

It's a very good rule. It's not strict enough IMO.

I've seen the results of antler restrictions 1st hand. People gripe for a while, then they sort of eat their own words when they start killing better deer.

The hunters that crack me up are the ones that gripe about antler restrictions, but refuse to shoot does. Doe management accompanied by antler restriction produces a much healthier deer herd over time.

Reloader

I am glad you think its great and it might be but this is not public land regulation this is what you can do on your farm. I know the trophy whitetail guys think its great to let young bucks walk and want everyone to be a trophy hunter like they are. thats fine but this is a rule FORCING everyone to be a trophy hunter weather they want to or not OR ELSE.

its as simple as that you will obey and hunt the way the texas trophy hunters ass. wants you to or else.

keep aplauding while some douchbag govt assclown decides how you will hunt. its great while they agree with you not so much when they dont. what will you say when they restrict all hunting in some counties to stick and string or muzzle loader or spear. how about a gross weight restriction.

how about a restriction requiring you feed 300 # of nuclear antler high proteen deer nuggets per acre and it must be put out every month for 12 consecutive months before you can hunt that land. this is about bigger racks right?

...once again, a MATURE buck hunter NOT a trophy hunter.

Perry

It a bit humorous to me but yea, I finally got a chance to shoot a Mature buck. 4.5yr. old, 145#, nice 11 inch spikes. That's a product of the three pt. rule in South Arkansas. Maybe I should have passed on him till he was 5.5! But I did have a cull buck tag and I looked him over good and decided that he had reached pretty close to his full potential. Heaviest spike I have ever seen outside of Maine.

They are not all that way. Some friends found a buck skull on their place with 17 inch spikes! He must have been the dominant buck in the 40 acre patch of woods where he was found. After what appeared to be a natural death for that deer,the folks who owned and hunted that little patch started seeing some branched antlered bucks and prior to his death, nothing but spikes. Yes, a very isolated incident.

This has been a good thread and I have enjoyed hearing other hunters opinions and hunting philosophy in general. Regardless of all our opinions, it is most important to kill at least one doe or more for every buck taken depending on the buck/doe ratio and # of acres/deer. Then discipline ourselves not to overharvest the buck segment of the herd but have fun hunting.

Perry,
I respect your opinon but there are a few things that haven't been considered here.

Yes, as a grown man I should let a 2.5yr old buck walk, reguardless of what kind of rack he has on his head. Yes, there should be some agreed upon method/management so that every Bubba in the woods isn't killing immature deer.

However, imagine that you are a divorced father that MIGHT get to take his son hunting once or twice in a season. Everything, including his mother, video games, school, martial arts lessons etc, is competing for his time and attention. You are in an area that isn't prone to producing large bucks but the deer population is
very large. A nice 8pt walks out and presents a nice target picture. It's a border line call as to wheather he's 13inches or not, could go either way. You may not get the chance to take your son hunting again, and if you do, you probably won't have this same opportunity. Now, I'm supposed to make my 8yr old son show discipline, something I already teach him at home, by passing on a buck that would be a major trophy to him?
I have to tell him "no son the Texas Parks and Wildlife Dept., have determined that this buck may not be shot because his antlers arent big enough". To a kid, his antlers are plenty big enough. Good luck getting him to go hunting with you next time, if you have a next time.

Would I shoot this buck? No. Does my son care if he's an 8pt with 13inches or a 12pt with 24inches? No.

Antler width, especially in my area is NOT a way to determine if a buck is mature or not. For some reason antlers here are prone to width but not mass or tine length. So, a lot of immature bucks can still be shot legally.

Perhaps in certain areas, the deer population may need some help, I believe that deep East Texas was mentioned above. However TPWD expanded the 13inch rule as far west as Brownwood, where I can assure you, there is no shortage of deer. This is just one more layer of government telling us what we can do. I sincerely believe that this is influenced by the industry of hunting much more so than management of the deer herd.

But I thought "Everything is bigger in Texas"

quote:

Originally posted by Ryan Campbell:
Perry,
I respect your opinon but there are a few things that haven't been considered here.

Yes, as a grown man I should let a 2.5yr old buck walk, reguardless of what kind of rack he has on his head. Yes, there should be some agreed upon method/management so that every Bubba in the woods isn't killing immature deer.

However, imagine that you are a divorced father that MIGHT get to take his son hunting once or twice in a season. Everything, including his mother, video games, school, martial arts lessons etc, is competing for his time and attention. You are in an area that isn't prone to producing large bucks but the deer population is
very large. A nice 8pt walks out and presents a nice target picture. It's a border line call as to wheather he's 13inches or not, could go either way. You may not get the chance to take your son hunting again, and if you do, you probably won't have this same opportunity. Now, I'm supposed to make my 8yr old son show discipline, something I already teach him at home, by passing on a buck that would be a major trophy to him?
I have to tell him "no son the Texas Parks and Wildlife Dept., have determined that this buck may not be shot because his antlers arent big enough". To a kid, his antlers are plenty big enough. Good luck getting him to go hunting with you next time, if you have a next time.

Would I shoot this buck? No. Does my son care if he's an 8pt with 13inches or a 12pt with 24inches? No.

Antler width, especially in my area is NOT a way to determine if a buck is mature or not. For some reason antlers here are prone to width but not mass or tine length. So, a lot of immature bucks can still be shot legally.

Perhaps in certain areas, the deer population may need some help, I believe that deep East Texas was mentioned above. However TPWD expanded the 13inch rule as far west as Brownwood, where I can assure you, there is no shortage of deer. This is just one more layer of government telling us what we can do. I sincerely believe that this is influenced by the industry of hunting much more so than management of the deer herd.

Circumstance should not effect principle, ESPECIALLY in hunting.

Perry

Clearly you are not a divorced father.

This isn't principle, it certainly isn't my principal, this is an arbitrary rule set by TPWD that can potentially damage hunting overall. I've talked to TPWD biologist who disagree strongly with it so there is no concensus even among themselves.

Perry,

Ryan is trying to explain that with all the demands and distractions kids are exposed to these days that it is actually a job to get one's son or daughter out in the woods for an enjoyable outing that potentially can make or break the kid from wanting to come back and do it again. I have been in the same boat with my boy who is now 23.

On his first deer hunt when 13 he killed a doe and an hour later a 2.5yr. old 7 pt. buck. He was thrilled to death over both deer especially the buck. He since has only killed only a doe or two but has no problem passing on a 2.5 buck. He understands wildlife management. Some years he never hunts and when he does, its mostly for the meat and fun.

He appreciates the woods and nature. For that I am most grateful.

The fact is that circumstances DO affect everyone's life differently, including how they choose to hunt. Your posts indicate that you are a skillful and descriminating deer hunter, but you come across as somewhat of an elitest.

I am glad that my dad had an intense interest in passing on his love for nature, hunting, and fishing to me and two sisters without making those activities overly restrictive. We just went out and had a good time. He is gone now, but would appreciate the fact that we are trying to keep those outdoor traditions in our family even though it is not an easy thing to do in this day and time.

I am hoping that my son and I get to hunt together this year and kill a doe or two and maybe an "average" buck and continue to create memories that will last our entire lives. And wish you the best of luck this year as well. merg

You wouldn't keep a Red Drum that was 19 inches, you would release it and hope to catch it when it "grows up". Keeping it would be considered POACHING! When TP&W imposes restrictions there is a reason. Shooting less than 13" in my opinion is poaching. Anybody that does so willingly is a poacher. Anybody teaching their children that it is OK to break the law is an idiot. Children have an amazing way of not being able to keep their mouth shut. Suppose this kid's dad tells him it is ok to shoot and he waylays a 12&3/4". Now he is going to brag to his friends. What is he going to say......"My daddy said it would be ok." Now you got yourself in a sling. Any reprocussions will be handled how.....in the proper adult manner or will excuses be made as to why it is ok to break the law. There is the answer that "we thought it was big enough"...and a warden might agree, but back to the above statement...kids talk and sooner or later it will come back to haunt you. How do you explain it is ok to break this law but not others.

This is a slippery slope. Tread with caution!

Andy

The 13 inch spreac restriction flat works. It also allows hunters to shoot two bucks (two spikes or one trophy and one spike)now where they could only shoot one before, so it helps meat hunters and trophy hunters at the same time.

AFA whether a kid cares or not about how big an animal is......well hell yes he cares if the father teaches him to care. My son passed up does and smaller bucks for two years so he could shoot an 8 point as his first deer. We had a drought and I admit it was a pretty scrawny 8 point, but he made the decision himself that he was holding out for an 8, and waited for one to come by. Without proper preparation, it's not, "I sure had fun Dad, let's do it again." But, "Darn, Dad, I sure wish I could have shot those young bucks I saw." Wrong.

this thread is like other things in Texas---ego generated--with no idea of how to correct the situation. It is no different than anywhere else in the U.S.A. where you have IDIOTS in the political process.

quote:

Originally posted by ztreh:
this thread is like other things in Texas---ego generated--with no idea of how to correct the situation. It is no different than anywhere else in the U.S.A. where you have IDIOTS in the political process.

Well, that was certainly a helpful observation. Do you live in Texas?

quote:

so that every Bubba in the woods isn't killing immature deer

Bingo....This is all because of the "If it is brown, it is down" crowd. I see nothing wrong with responsible game management based on wildlife biology. It is the "political" and "anti" "opinion management" folks we have to worry about. IMHO.......

Bob

Where to begin???

No I am not a divorced father. No I am not an ELITIST and am sought of offended by that statement. Yes I have a 7 year old that has been hunting with me for 3 years so I get the distractions.
One of the ranches we hunt on has very strict management rules and we have to pass on lots of animals. She learned this on her very first hunt and WAS OK WITH IT. There was a lot of "shoot it daddy" but we made it through. She has learned it herself in the javelinas and pigs she gets to shoot. You can't always shoot everything you want AND THAT IS THE REASON FOR THIS LAW!!! No self discipline.

And yes it is principle, and circumstances are not supposed to change those. If they do in your life, Ryan and Meganse1, that's fine BUT DON'T call them principles. How about "suggestions to live by" or "rules, if they fit".

Bottom line is the state has stepped in and protected young deer and the proof is in the RESULTS that it works.

Meganser1,
Explain to me please what is "elitest" about wanting a rule in place that allows a game animal, as majestic as a whitetail, to have the opportunity to reach its God given potential, trophy or not. Your comment could one of the most ignorant I have ever seen!

Perry

does anyone know what the penalty for a 12-3/4" inside spread deer is?

quote:

Originally posted by perry:

Seeing hunters kill immature animals makes me sick. It absolutely robs the animal the chance to grow to it's potential, trophy or not.

Perry

a BIG + 1...

Kids should start off w/ pigs, does, goats, vermin & beer cans, then move up to mature bucks.

Fathers/Mother/Mentors should Lead By Example!
(This really concerns me)

I'll conclude that their are no exceptions & shortcuts to Excellence, you've got to earn it the hard way like the rest of us, IMHO.

quote:

quote:
so that every Bubba in the woods isn't killing immature deer

Bingo....This is all because of the "If it is brown, it is down" crowd. I

It isn't the 12-year-olds out hunting with Dad that this rule was aimed at. While I disagree with my friend Ryan about whether a child should shoot a deer that an adult wouldn't, that's not the problem. The problem is all the "grown ups" who shoot the first hard-antlered deer they see opening morning so they could "get their buck."

When I hunted in Jack County (Jacksboro) I was flabbergasted at what you saw on opening morning. Grown men who'd probably hunted their entire lives were dropping off immature 4 and 6 point deer at the cold storage locker. The county was overrun with does that needed killing, but they were shooting baby bucks just because they were bucks. Insane and irresponsible for most of us here on AR, but that kind of mentality and maturity is what compelled Parks and Wildlife to have to adopt the 13" rule.

Gatogordo also highlights an important part of the rule. Antler restriction counties are 2 buck counties. You can take a deer with greater than a 13" inside spread and a deer with at least one unbranched antler, so the spikes and deformities can get taken too. You aren't having to burn your only buck tag on a deer that needs shooting when a monster could then appear.

LWD