mike, i was kind of surprised by some of the answers you got on your 30 cal discussion. try this one, when you run into a 30-06 die hard tell them you shoot a 308 because it s such a good cartridge, nothing could be better. the 30-06 guys will automatically go into a diatribe about how the 06 handles bigger bullets better, how the 06 is more versitile, the 06 kills quicker.

BUT in reality the 06 is only about 150 fps faster than a 308 at best. if the 06 is only 150 fps faster than a 308, how comes a cartridge that is 400 fps faster than a 06 isnt any better? the answer is obvious, the 06 has been around for a hundred years and these guys dont take change easily. most of these guys when asked what type varmint rifle they shoot will tell you a 22-250 and explain how much better it is because its faster and more powerful than a 223. again, argueing against their 06 argument.

hands down the mags outperform the 06. over and over and over. do they kill faster? no. but the 06 doesnt kill any faster than a 30-30 either.

i was a long time 06 user. about 23 years. then a guy loaned me a 300 weatherby. i shot 3 mule deer with it and made shots that i would have never been able to make with the 06 because i didnt have a range finder. sighted 3 inches high at 100 yards i was able to hold on a deer at 378 yards (measured with gps) and still hit him. sighted 3 inches high at 100 yards the 06 would have been 9 inches lower and would have missed. never picked the 06 up again.

It's simply not that complicated or tough to understand. Bullet manufacturers for the most part, design their bullets to reliably expand at velocities down to 1900 fps. With the 06 that gives you reliable exspansion out to 350-370 yards with a 180gr partition. In the same bullet with a 300 win mag,you'll get reliable exspansion out to around 450 yards with a muzzle velocity of 3000fps and 500 yards with 3100fps at the muzzle.
Now take the .308 winchester with a 24 inch barrel which is unlikely,the majority have 22inch barrels. Hold your breath just right and you may get 2600fps with a 180gr bullet.That gives you reliable exspansion out to 300 yards. Now if you're like most people with a .308,you're getting 2500fps with a 180gr bullet and you're looking at around 250 yards or less for reliable exspansion.

With all this said,the average shooter is lucky if he can make reliable hits on game animals out to 300 yards,under field conditions(tired and out of breath),using field positions not a cement bench and bags or mechanical rest. The .308 will easily handle this range as long as you're using a load that gets you 2600fps or damn close to it. If not you're still looking at 250 yards which is still farther then alot of people can reliably hit things with certainty.

Since the majority of hunters can't reliably hit targets with consistancy past 300 yards.The 06 offers plenty of range with its reliable exspansion out to 370 yards,for those that can reliably hit targets at 300 yards or slightly more. With the mag,you're looking at 450 yards or more for reliable exspansion,which raises another question.How many shooters can take advantage of 450 to 500 yard capabilities. From the range results at 300 yards,which are piss poor.The results at 450 to 500 are even worse bordering on patheticand thats using an excellant rest,which are far and few between in the field.

The 06 simply holds the maximum of what the majority of shooters can reliably utilize the majority of the time,plus an extra 50 or 70 yards for those that are even better shots. The mag offers what few if anyone will utilize or even possess the necessary skill to utilize.

With the average big game animal being shot at 200 yards or less,the .308 offers all you need plus some ,I'll never argue that. However I still prefer the 30/06, because it's an honest 350 yard cartridge and thats around the maximum range that I can reliably hit big game under field conditions,with wany certainty of the outcome.

That 378 yard deer that you hit wasn't a miracle caused by Roy weatherby's invention, it was simply a shot you fired that could have easily been duplicated with an 06.

I wonder how many deer, antelope, and elk are wounded at 378 yards, and never seen again.

Will

Not trying to insult anyone, but I must agree with Will on his coment.

As far as the 30-06 is concerned... I like to use a 2700-2800fps velocity for most my rifle loads (180gr from the -06 and 225gr from the .338) so that I have one flight path to remember. The -06 just seems to match my shooting style better. If I used .308" 165gr bullets I might take the 308 Win. I keep a 250 yard maximum range limit for big game and the -06 seems a perfect balance for this.

But what do I know?

"I wonder how many deer, antelope, and elk are wounded at 378 yards, and never seen again."

probably no more or less than are wounded at 50 yards. i spent many hours chasing peoples wounded game through the woods that were wounded at close range in pennsylvania. wounding game is part of hunting. dont like it, give up hunting. as for killing game at distances, i got lucky because i had a faster caliber that day. if i would have had a range finder there would have been no guessing what so ever. with todays technology, target turret scopes, range finders, low drag bullets, fast cartridges, people are easily talking game out to 1000 yards. go over the longrange hunting forum and talk to some of those guys. and many are shooting that game off sturdy benches. after hunting here in colorado for the last 4 years, far shots are more the norm than the abnorm. only close range animals i have shot here so far was a couple elk and a bighorn. everything else has been 300 plus because of the terrain i am hunting including several mulies, antelope, loads of coyotes, and P-dogs.

I have taken game out to 430 yds (lasered) with the .30-06, it's all a matter of practice, and a magnum is no substitute for practice. I've done the same ranges with my .308 on deer, I love both cartridges, I just happen t like my .30-06 M70 Classic Featherweight a little more, but if I want unquestionable consistency in accuracy, my hand reaches for my somewhat ugle .308 Winchester in Remington 788, damn does that thing shoot! Use the biggest cartridge you can shoot well and you'll do fine.
Yardbird

Long range shooting isn't hunting,it's simply shooting and about as much a hunt as going to your local range and shooting the steel gong at 600 yards. At a thousand yards you can get out of your pickup slam the door and still have time for a setup shot. I have no problem with long range shooting of big game,just don't confuse it with hunting. Lazy motherfuckers that set up a bench on top of a hill or canyon and drink coffee,three feet away from their pickup,aren't hunting. They're taking part in a shooting incident. These guys aren't the only ones that confuse shooting with hunting.Your texas wonders that sit in a tripod overlooking a timed feeder,that have deer and hogs patterned to show up on call,aren't hunting either.

At one time colorado had a weight and caliber limit on rifles,since you had lazy assholes mounting custom 50 cal. rifles on tripods bolted to the back of pickup beds and then driving around logging roads and shooting into the next canyon.

With elk hunting and most other big game hunting,if you get off your ass and hunt,the majority of your shots will 200 yards or less. A few at 300 yards and then you'll have plenty of cases where animals are spotted at 600 or more yards away. When these ranges are encountered there are plenty of dipshits shooting and mostly off hand. I'd venture to say the majority of migrating elk are wounded at extreme ranges beyond 500 yards,by assholes that are so desperate for a shot they'll shoot at any range,regardless of wether they're capable or not.

RMK - Please don't be quite so quick to brand anyone who doesn't hunt by your narrow concept of the sport as an asshole or worse. It makes the rest of us think you are stupid.

Do you feel the same about people who don't paint their houses the same color as yours or drive the same make and model car as you? I doubt it.

You totally ignore the obvious. There are a hell of a lot of different reasons how and why people hunt the way they do. Some people don't have a choice due to physical conditions or limitations...or had you thought of that?

Most Texas deer hunting is dictated by terrain and ranch considerations....and several other things a person in the wide open space of Wyoming wouldn't understand.

Then there are just people who like to try some technique or equipment THEIR way. They pay their hunting fees and support wildlife the same as you. I daresay you would be outraged if someone tried to criticize or tell YOU how to hunt. No?

Trying to cram everyone in an RMK Approved box is just a dumb way to look at life. Your opinion (and mine) are of little more importance than a couple of gas bubbles in a swamp.

Lighten up. You'll live an extra 10 years.

RMK,

You are right. I believe in what you say. There is target shooting and there is hunting.

Don't be lazy and learn how to hunt. 30-06 has no troubles dropping game inside 300 yards. I would never shoot at game past 250. I have not lost an animal so far.

But I'm not a hunter who needs to brag to pump themselves up for hunting forums.

Any difference in the .308 and the 30-06 is just in the mind of the shooter. Fact is there is little difference any any caliber from about or below the 7x57 thru 300 Win. or 300 RUM....not more than 4or 5" in drop and I can wiggle that much in the field. wind is the real villian and few can dope wind in the field.

As to killing power, I have never been able to look at a dead animal and tell you what it was shot with. they will all kill well if the bullet is placed right and therein lies the problem....

I take all this caliber, big powerful scopes,and flat trajectory with a grain of salt...but that's just my opine.

Pecos,honestly how many people do you know,that shoot at long range(500 to 1000 yards) or sit on their ass over an electronic feeder,that have an honest disability and have no choice but to hunt that way. This is about as lame of an excuse,as the poor lard ass that is using an atv to road hunt off of,because of a "bum Knee".Sightings of these disabilities in the field are on par with seeing elvis at the mall. These people aren't handicaped,they're fucking lazy.Plain and simple. The average person with a disability,through the hand that was dealt them,are economically poor and don't have money to waste on some texas lease or high end rifle and optics or atv.The hunters I've personally met with legitimate disabilities,haven't even used these lazy methods of hunting. No,the average guy you see taking long shots on game,is some idiot that is fully capable of walking closer to game,but is to lazy to work at it and only cares about putting an animal down,regardless of consequences. This guys biggest disability is he hasn't seen his dick past his gut in several decades.

Wow, and all this "Holier Than Thou" dialog from someone that can't get his point across without using offensive words.

RMK if getting close is so meaningful to you take up bow hunting. Then you really have to get up close.Compared to bow hunting most rifles give you an unfair advanage. Hunting with firearms is just like going to the range and knocking them off.

Yes, definately! Let's all set our ethical standards, define sportsmanship and even the word hunting itself and try to model our behavior based upon the words from a guy that says stuff like this in a public forum:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RMK:
I bet you like it when your 6 year old sits on your lap,or for that matter the neighbors kid.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RMK:
In fact you got your little trooper packed on a regular basis....Hell you were passed around from one prison gang to the other. You were everyones property and bitch. Hell towards the end there,the mob was paying for your estrogen shots. With the tits you were growing,you made all kinds of friends....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RMK:
the fact that the state allowed you and your boyfriend,to adopt kids....you're about as feminine as a chick with a dick can be.

---

[ 11-18-2002, 05:47: Message edited by: Jon A ]

Two long range pussies are crying rivers now.

RMK - If you have difficulty with long shots, you've come to the right place. There are people here who can help you. Just come down and explain yourself without all this ranting.

We're all here to help you.

I was not going to chime in, but RMK got under my skin... again.
RMK - While I tend to agree with some of what you say when you are trying to be literate, I cannot stand your method of public communication. I remember cussing around my dad when I was a kid. He said "lots of people cuss when they want to feel big, but a real man does not need to do it" Why do you always take the low road? Do you know any other way?
I know you have a disdain for ATV riders, long range hunters and pretty much anything else that does not fit your part of reality, but can you not discuss it in a civil matter?
I too have a dislike of ATV hunters... here in Colorado, but I have also seen parts of the world where it just plain makes sense. Does that make everyone who hunts off an ATV a "poor lard ass"? No, not everywhere in the world. Is it wrong to road hunt off an ATV? Well, I guess as long as the ATV is ON THE ROAD, there is not much difference between that and a Willy's jeep. Its when they start creating roads that I start to have problems.
Anyway, either "lighten up, you live another 10 years" or get really mad and stressed out and go away.

RMK is becomming a troll I'm afraid..He had something to say in the beginning, but has gone to hell in a shoebox latly, with his remarks about a father and son relationship which is sacred and in "do not touch territory" with hunters...Hunters love their kids and kids raised as hunters never go bad. I think attacking a man and his son without reason is the lowest form of flaming. It is a cowardly act of a person who hides behind the protection of the internet.

He has gone to far, and is now classified as common white trash. I have a feeling he is someone who has come from the dead...a troll with a different name.

Mickey, this guy looks like he has BAD KNEES to me! Poor bugger can't even get into his clothes

Pecos
I don't know if you noticed but he is sitting on his ATV in the picture. I'd also bet he has alot of 'Bad Parts'.

Sometimes the fact that I frequent this forum makes me wonder about myself.

Do you think that if our pal, Alligator mouth, stood in that room and spewed forth the sewage that he spews here, that Tiny would get off of his chair?

Gee, If I get a 300 magnum, does that mean......

I don't have to estimate or laser the range?
I just hold on the target and the deer falls down?
I don't have to hit 'em in the right place cuz. it "kills 'em deader"
I can shoot at any range and any angle without thinking about it?

Very cool.................

JimF

This guy is something else! I hunt every day I can get away from work and home obligations. Usually after 2 days, I have to take the ear splitten' loudenboomer and hunt the open strip mines, 'cause I can't climb the hill another day.

So I'm one of those nonexistent people. I guess falling almost 30' when a scaffold collapsed makes me ineligible for hunting. Or maybe the auto accident a year later, that took the rescue crew an hour and a half to cut me out of means that if I'm not up to the climb, I don't get to hunt anymore?

The days I can, I hunt the mountainsides, when I can't, I'm prepared to hunt longer ranges, so if he doesn't like it, SO WHAT!!!

Congradulations terry,you're one in how many thousands of lazy assholes that actually needs to ride an atv or shoot long range,because of a legitimate disability. Whats sad,is even with your disability,you spend more time hunting on foot and stalking then 90% of people with use of their legs. Judging by your picture in front of that computer,you have one hell for stout ATV.

Wow ray that really is touching. What is it with the word troll. Every since you and another chrony dipshit,decided to track down some other poster who disagreed with you,(I think it had to do with riflescopes),you've had this fixation with trolls and now white trash. Hell I'll take white trash any day,over being a texan like you ray.

As for the father son comment,hell ray you took it harder then trooper sensitivity. Mainly because trooper sensitivity is in all probability some other poster on here,who is double registered, to stir shit on an already worthless topic of matchkings. Hell ray,it was worth posting that just to get you worked up over nothing.

[ 11-19-2002, 12:03: Message edited by: RMK ]

[ 11-19-2002, 11:48: Message edited by: RMK ]

Here are some facts out of my new Barnes Reloading Manual No. 3 using their "recommended" loading not the maximum recommended loads.

Barnes - 308 Win - 30-06 - Difference
130gr XBT - 2915 fps - 2921 fps - 6 fps
150gr XBT - 2638 fps - 2824 fps - 186 fps
165gr XBT - 2495 fps - 2781 fps - 286 fps
180gr XBT - 2345 fps - 2532 fps - 187 fps
200gr XFB - 2233 fps - 2439 fps - 206 fps
250gr Original -1915 fps - 2119 fps - 204 fps
Average = 179 fps

Thought someone might be interested. I would have entered some 300 Win Mag data, but ran out of room. Too much typing.

[ 11-19-2002, 16:53: Message edited by: jcsabolt-2 ]

I forgot...we are still on that .30/06 .308 thing?

Probably doesn't like them lazy suckers who hunt with horses either. I for one chose a .300 Win Mag in part because it is a family tradition, and partly because I wanted one,not so I could take longer shots than I can with my '06, just because I wanted one. I am just going to harbor a guess, but I am sure he has never ever seen a deer or elk, or antelope for that matter from the rig, and stopped to shoot it, I know I have, sometimes you get lucky and don't have to walk 3 or 4 miles. I like hunting with my 45/70s too, they generally just knock things over so I don't have to chase them. Does this make me lazy too? Amazing how this went from a decent logical discussion, straight into the toilet.

[ 11-19-2002, 19:46: Message edited by: AKBman ]

dang, I just wanted to check the forum and see a couple of people having a hissy fit. isn't the '06 great. it has caused these arguments forever. every year i sit and listen at deer camps as friends argue about this. bottom line, it gets the job done under 98% of conditions that sane hunters use.
as for RMK, your digging a whole you can't get out of. though, i hate texans, and never agree with one, i will say that atkinson fellow is right. you are hiding behind your computer. you definitely wouldn't talk to people like that in my camp in person or anyone elses camp i suspect. those are fightin words you been saying. you need to grow up.

p.s. you know what is wrong with texas, it is full of texans.

Colorado got all the texans and california got all the faggots,only because california had first pick.

What are the 3 biggest lies of a Wyoming Cowboy?

1. I won this belt buckle.
2. My truck is paid for.
3. I was just trying to help the sheep over the fence.

Wyoming: Where Men Are Men ... and the sheep are scared !!!





[ 11-22-2002, 01:48: Message edited by: BFaucett ]

This is what I like about my 30-06:

Load:
RL-22, 63gr
Fed 210 primer
190gr Sierra matchking, moly coated
MV: 2903 fps
Barrel 26" SS Douglas#7

Ballistics (4000 ft elevation):
Range Velocity Energy Drop
yards) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs) (moa)
100 2746.1 3181.4 -0.0
200 2592.7 2835.7 -1.5
300 2444.7 2521.4 -3.6
400 2302.2 2236.0 -6.1
600 2031.4 1740.8 -11.8
800 1779.8 1336.4 -18.7
1000 1551.4 1015.3 -27.1

The Rifle:
Rem 700 LH
McMillan A2 Desert stock
Badger Ordnanace base, rings, floorplate, recoil lug, bolt knob
Leupold 6.5-20x50LR,M1 turrets, USMC mildot reticle

I suppose it's just another boring 30-06, but it tickles me.

MM




[ 11-22-2002, 02:08: Message edited by: MontanaMarine ]

[ 11-22-2002, 03:41: Message edited by: steve y ]

Anyone recognize what I described here?

What I see here is someone who is not hunting but shooting! Can't you get closer than
378 yds!!!!!!!!!!! Shit give me a Barret 50 and I willl make kills on deer way past your
meesly 378 yds!!!!!!!!!!!!! HOW ABOUT SOME HUNTING SKILLS HERE!!!!!!!! What's the
matter can't you reaqlly HUNT?????? Any idiot can pull a trigger at that distance, but
it takes a HUNTER