mike, i was kind of surprised by some of the answers you got on your 30 cal discussion. try this one, when you run into a 30-06 die hard tell them you shoot a 308 because it s such a good cartridge, nothing could be better. the 30-06 guys will automatically go into a diatribe about how the 06 handles bigger bullets better, how the 06 is more versitile, the 06 kills quicker.

BUT in reality the 06 is only about 150 fps faster than a 308 at best. if the 06 is only 150 fps faster than a 308, how comes a cartridge that is 400 fps faster than a 06 isnt any better? the answer is obvious, the 06 has been around for a hundred years and these guys dont take change easily. most of these guys when asked what type varmint rifle they shoot will tell you a 22-250 and explain how much better it is because its faster and more powerful than a 223. again, argueing against their 06 argument.

hands down the mags outperform the 06. over and over and over. do they kill faster? no. but the 06 doesnt kill any faster than a 30-30 either.

i was a long time 06 user. about 23 years. then a guy loaned me a 300 weatherby. i shot 3 mule deer with it and made shots that i would have never been able to make with the 06 because i didnt have a range finder. sighted 3 inches high at 100 yards i was able to hold on a deer at 378 yards (measured with gps) and still hit him. sighted 3 inches high at 100 yards the 06 would have been 9 inches lower and would have missed. never picked the 06 up again.

It's simply not that complicated or tough to understand. Bullet manufacturers for the most part, design their bullets to reliably expand at velocities down to 1900 fps. With the 06 that gives you reliable exspansion out to 350-370 yards with a 180gr partition. In the same bullet with a 300 win mag,you'll get reliable exspansion out to around 450 yards with a muzzle velocity of 3000fps and 500 yards with 3100fps at the muzzle.
Now take the .308 winchester with a 24 inch barrel which is unlikely,the majority have 22inch barrels. Hold your breath just right and you may get 2600fps with a 180gr bullet.That gives you reliable exspansion out to 300 yards. Now if you're like most people with a .308,you're getting 2500fps with a 180gr bullet and you're looking at around 250 yards or less for reliable exspansion.

With all this said,the average shooter is lucky if he can make reliable hits on game animals out to 300 yards,under field conditions(tired and out of breath),using field positions not a cement bench and bags or mechanical rest. The .308 will easily handle this range as long as you're using a load that gets you 2600fps or damn close to it. If not you're still looking at 250 yards which is still farther then alot of people can reliably hit things with certainty.

Since the majority of hunters can't reliably hit targets with consistancy past 300 yards.The 06 offers plenty of range with its reliable exspansion out to 370 yards,for those that can reliably hit targets at 300 yards or slightly more. With the mag,you're looking at 450 yards or more for reliable exspansion,which raises another question.How many shooters can take advantage of 450 to 500 yard capabilities. From the range results at 300 yards,which are piss poor.The results at 450 to 500 are even worse bordering on patheticand thats using an excellant rest,which are far and few between in the field.

The 06 simply holds the maximum of what the majority of shooters can reliably utilize the majority of the time,plus an extra 50 or 70 yards for those that are even better shots. The mag offers what few if anyone will utilize or even possess the necessary skill to utilize.

With the average big game animal being shot at 200 yards or less,the .308 offers all you need plus some ,I'll never argue that. However I still prefer the 30/06, because it's an honest 350 yard cartridge and thats around the maximum range that I can reliably hit big game under field conditions,with wany certainty of the outcome.

That 378 yard deer that you hit wasn't a miracle caused by Roy weatherby's invention, it was simply a shot you fired that could have easily been duplicated with an 06.

I wonder how many deer, antelope, and elk are wounded at 378 yards, and never seen again.

Will

Not trying to insult anyone, but I must agree with Will on his coment.

As far as the 30-06 is concerned... I like to use a 2700-2800fps velocity for most my rifle loads (180gr from the -06 and 225gr from the .338) so that I have one flight path to remember. The -06 just seems to match my shooting style better. If I used .308" 165gr bullets I might take the 308 Win. I keep a 250 yard maximum range limit for big game and the -06 seems a perfect balance for this.

But what do I know?

"I wonder how many deer, antelope, and elk are wounded at 378 yards, and never seen again."

probably no more or less than are wounded at 50 yards. i spent many hours chasing peoples wounded game through the woods that were wounded at close range in pennsylvania. wounding game is part of hunting. dont like it, give up hunting. as for killing game at distances, i got lucky because i had a faster caliber that day. if i would have had a range finder there would have been no guessing what so ever. with todays technology, target turret scopes, range finders, low drag bullets, fast cartridges, people are easily talking game out to 1000 yards. go over the longrange hunting forum and talk to some of those guys. and many are shooting that game off sturdy benches. after hunting here in colorado for the last 4 years, far shots are more the norm than the abnorm. only close range animals i have shot here so far was a couple elk and a bighorn. everything else has been 300 plus because of the terrain i am hunting including several mulies, antelope, loads of coyotes, and P-dogs.

I have taken game out to 430 yds (lasered) with the .30-06, it's all a matter of practice, and a magnum is no substitute for practice. I've done the same ranges with my .308 on deer, I love both cartridges, I just happen t like my .30-06 M70 Classic Featherweight a little more, but if I want unquestionable consistency in accuracy, my hand reaches for my somewhat ugle .308 Winchester in Remington 788, damn does that thing shoot! Use the biggest cartridge you can shoot well and you'll do fine.
Yardbird

Long range shooting isn't hunting,it's simply shooting and about as much a hunt as going to your local range and shooting the steel gong at 600 yards. At a thousand yards you can get out of your pickup slam the door and still have time for a setup shot. I have no problem with long range shooting of big game,just don't confuse it with hunting. Lazy motherfuckers that set up a bench on top of a hill or canyon and drink coffee,three feet away from their pickup,aren't hunting. They're taking part in a shooting incident. These guys aren't the only ones that confuse shooting with hunting.Your texas wonders that sit in a tripod overlooking a timed feeder,that have deer and hogs patterned to show up on call,aren't hunting either.

At one time colorado had a weight and caliber limit on rifles,since you had lazy assholes mounting custom 50 cal. rifles on tripods bolted to the back of pickup beds and then driving around logging roads and shooting into the next canyon.

With elk hunting and most other big game hunting,if you get off your ass and hunt,the majority of your shots will 200 yards or less. A few at 300 yards and then you'll have plenty of cases where animals are spotted at 600 or more yards away. When these ranges are encountered there are plenty of dipshits shooting and mostly off hand. I'd venture to say the majority of migrating elk are wounded at extreme ranges beyond 500 yards,by assholes that are so desperate for a shot they'll shoot at any range,regardless of wether they're capable or not.

RMK - Please don't be quite so quick to brand anyone who doesn't hunt by your narrow concept of the sport as an asshole or worse. It makes the rest of us think you are stupid.

Do you feel the same about people who don't paint their houses the same color as yours or drive the same make and model car as you? I doubt it.

You totally ignore the obvious. There are a hell of a lot of different reasons how and why people hunt the way they do. Some people don't have a choice due to physical conditions or limitations...or had you thought of that?

Most Texas deer hunting is dictated by terrain and ranch considerations....and several other things a person in the wide open space of Wyoming wouldn't understand.

Then there are just people who like to try some technique or equipment THEIR way. They pay their hunting fees and support wildlife the same as you. I daresay you would be outraged if someone tried to criticize or tell YOU how to hunt. No?

Trying to cram everyone in an RMK Approved box is just a dumb way to look at life. Your opinion (and mine) are of little more importance than a couple of gas bubbles in a swamp.

Lighten up. You'll live an extra 10 years.

RMK,

You are right. I believe in what you say. There is target shooting and there is hunting.

Don't be lazy and learn how to hunt. 30-06 has no troubles dropping game inside 300 yards. I would never shoot at game past 250. I have not lost an animal so far.

But I'm not a hunter who needs to brag to pump themselves up for hunting forums.

Any difference in the .308 and the 30-06 is just in the mind of the shooter. Fact is there is little difference any any caliber from about or below the 7x57 thru 300 Win. or 300 RUM....not more than 4or 5" in drop and I can wiggle that much in the field. wind is the real villian and few can dope wind in the field.

As to killing power, I have never been able to look at a dead animal and tell you what it was shot with. they will all kill well if the bullet is placed right and therein lies the problem....

I take all this caliber, big powerful scopes,and flat trajectory with a grain of salt...but that's just my opine.

Pecos,honestly how many people do you know,that shoot at long range(500 to 1000 yards) or sit on their ass over an electronic feeder,that have an honest disability and have no choice but to hunt that way. This is about as lame of an excuse,as the poor lard ass that is using an atv to road hunt off of,because of a "bum Knee".Sightings of these disabilities in the field are on par with seeing elvis at the mall. These people aren't handicaped,they're fucking lazy.Plain and simple. The average person with a disability,through the hand that was dealt them,are economically poor and don't have money to waste on some texas lease or high end rifle and optics or atv.The hunters I've personally met with legitimate disabilities,haven't even used these lazy methods of hunting. No,the average guy you see taking long shots on game,is some idiot that is fully capable of walking closer to game,but is to lazy to work at it and only cares about putting an animal down,regardless of consequences. This guys biggest disability is he hasn't seen his dick past his gut in several decades.

Wow, and all this "Holier Than Thou" dialog from someone that can't get his point across without using offensive words.

RMK if getting close is so meaningful to you take up bow hunting. Then you really have to get up close.Compared to bow hunting most rifles give you an unfair advanage. Hunting with firearms is just like going to the range and knocking them off.

Yes, definately! Let's all set our ethical standards, define sportsmanship and even the word hunting itself and try to model our behavior based upon the words from a guy that says stuff like this in a public forum:

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Originally posted by RMK:
I bet you like it when your 6 year old sits on your lap,or for that matter the neighbors kid.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RMK:
In fact you got your little trooper packed on a regular basis....Hell you were passed around from one prison gang to the other. You were everyones property and bitch. Hell towards the end there,the mob was paying for your estrogen shots. With the tits you were growing,you made all kinds of friends....

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quote:

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Originally posted by RMK:
the fact that the state allowed you and your boyfriend,to adopt kids....you're about as feminine as a chick with a dick can be.

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[ 11-18-2002, 05:47: Message edited by: Jon A ]