quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
You know, this started out (I think) as an appeal for unity amongst the hunters regardless of their discipline or style. And it has turned into one of the biggest pissing matches I've read in a while.

Says the guy that had an epic meltdown on this very thread.

Not a melt down at all. They want to know why this forum is failing. It's because of you and your ilk that can't make a statement or state a position and let it stand on its own merit. You've got to add the depreciating digs and remarks and name calling. Play your little game of oneupsmanship. That's why the threads devolve into pissing contest.
Can you wrap your head around that or is it too subtle for you.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Not a melt down at all. They want to know why this forum is failing. It's because of you and your ilk that can't make a statement or state a position and let it stand on its own merit. You've got to add the depreciating digs and remarks and name calling. Play your little game of oneupsmanship. That's why the threads devolve into pissing contest.
Can you wrap your head around that or is it too subtle for you.

I would like you to go back and tell me where I was out of line with you. You challenged me to come up with examples yet felt the need to put parameters on what examples I could give. I then gave you specific examples, that were within your imposed parameters, and you lose it. I look forward to seeing your response

Drummond, do you believe that the anti-hunting forces are not posing a threat to our ability to hunt in the future?

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Drummond, do you believe that the anti-hunting forces are not posing a threat to our ability to hunt in the future?

I will go ahead and extend you the courtesy that you have not extended me and I'll answer your question.

I believe that there are a lot of threats to the sport we all love and I believe that PETA and HSUS are the least of our concerns. PETA has roughly 2 million members and HSUS has roughly 11 million members. Depending on which report you look at there are between 20 and 45 million hunters in the United States, in fact, 21.8 million Americans hunted at least once over the past five years. In 2001 USF&W did a survey and found that 44 million Americans over the age of 6 fish. We GREATLY outnumber the anti's and fortunately for us hunting and fishing is something that both republicans and democrats enjoy

I have a problem with the fact that the average age of hunters goes up every year. This is the most disturbing trend I can see. I attribute this to a number of things. The economy sucks, people are working more hours on average and kids these days spend most of their time on computers, talking on cell phones and playing video games. Basically, they are not getting outside and the people that would normally take them are working their asses off. Kids spend more time inside than they do outside and this was not the case when the vast majority of us were growing up.

Inflation hurts, it affects everybody. Due to inflation hunting has become more expensive, game departments have become more expensive to run and in an economy such as this it makes it tough for a lot of people to find the resources to go and spend a week away from home to hunt. Also, due to the "environmental movement", agencies must now conform to new federal and state laws as well as work through piles of paperwork relating to threatened and endangered species, wetlands laws and other bureaucratic bullshit. Remember when you said that the upcry over the Smimitar Horned Oryx going on the endangered species list was a "knee jerk" reaction? Thats just ignorant on every god damn level

These are just a couple of issues facing the future of our sport, I could go on and on and if I thought you might be able to understand and comprehend them I would give you many more examples. That being said, I will leave you with one more threat to our sport and thats when you get people that dont take the time to educate themselves on the actual issues take it upon themselves to try to talk about shit they know nothing about. The fact that you focus so much on "trophy hunters" and how they are ruining the sport and driving the cost of hunting is a joke! You see something that you perceive as wrong and find a way to put the blame on trophy hunters. Its fucking stupid and its irresponsible!

CHC, I dont mean to be rude but you look like an absolute idiot when you come on here to tell people that they should STFU about what constitutes a "hunter" yet you try to place the blame on whats wrong with hunting on a certain sub culture of hunters, that being trophy hunters. Its hypocritical and completely irresponsible.

Before you respond, PLEASE take the time to educate yourself and genuinely think about what you're going to say. It would be just like you to come back with a stupid fucking remark or statement and I am literally begging you to put some actual thought into something before you type it. When you say the shit you say you hurt us more than you help us.

quote:

Before you respond, PLEASE take the time to educate yourself and genuinely think about what you're going to say. It would be just like you to come back with a stupid fucking remark or statement and I am literally begging you to put some actual thought into something before you type it. When you say the shit you say you hurt us more than you help us.

That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. Whether anyone or everyone agrees with you, does not matter. And Yes hyou are a rude individual, simply because if anyone does not view things from the exact same standpoint as you, they are beneath contempt and not on the same pious level that you believe yourself at. Too Damn Bad.

there is not one damn thing in your well thought out(?) reply that has not been stated before. What you so conviently left out with your analysis, is the fact that you and people like you, BELIEVE that the way you view hunting is the only correct way, and that ANYONE that does not agree with you is trash of some kind.

I am not anywhere near the threat to the future of hunting as idealistic/elitist zealots such as you are.

quote:

PETA has roughly 2 million members and HSUS has roughly 11 million members.

So they claim, but if you look at real records they grossly overstate their membership. As an example, HSUS puts out a magazine that is included with every membership. Yet the actual circulation of that magazine is around 450,000, they are required to report that in their tax return.

So they blow a lot of smoke, just other groups do, about their membership size.

quote:

We GREATLY outnumber the anti's and fortunately for us hunting and fishing is something that both republicans and democrats enjoy

We do, and hunting, trapping and fishing should be non-partisan issues. But too many don't treat them that way, and that is to our detriment unfortunately.

We have friends on both sides of the aisle and enemies on both sides of the aisle. On issues I've worked on I've seen Democrat legislators go to the wall to protect us and Republicans fuck us over. It is generally urban vs rural but not always with legislators, if you don't actively lobby for their support you probably wont get it.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Before you respond, PLEASE take the time to educate yourself and genuinely think about what you're going to say. It would be just like you to come back with a stupid fucking remark or statement and I am literally begging you to put some actual thought into something before you type it. When you say the shit you say you hurt us more than you help us.

That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. Whether anyone or everyone agrees with you, does not matter. And Yes hyou are a rude individual, simply because if anyone does not view things from the exact same standpoint as you, they are beneath contempt and not on the same pious level that you believe yourself at. Too Damn Bad.

there is not one damn thing in your well thought out(?) reply that has not been stated before. What you so conviently left out with your analysis, is the fact that you and people like you, BELIEVE that the way you view hunting is the only correct way, and that ANYONE that does not agree with you is trash of some kind.
I am not anywhere near the threat to the future of hunting as idealistic/elitist zealots such as you are.

I guess this proves that you can lead a Crazy Horse to water, but you can't make him think.

quote:

I guess this proves that you can lead a Crazy Horse to water, but you can't make him think.

I think all of the time, just not the same way you do or Drummond does, and that does not make the way I think WRONG, just different. Is there anything really wrong with another person thinking differently on a subject????

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

I guess this proves that you can lead a Crazy Horse to water, but you can't make him think.

I think all of the time, just not the same way you do or Drummond does, and that does not make the way I think WRONG, just different. Is there anything really wrong with another person thinking differently on a subject????

Wow, I can't believe you just posted this. The point of all your posts on any such subject as this seems to be anyone who does not agree with you is a threat to hunting, which is completely absurd.

No, what is absurd is that you or anyone else actually believes that I want ANYONE AT ALL to agree with anything I post.

That is your problem, not mine. I just give my opinions on subjects. All I am, trying to do, is get folks to think.

I am not egotistical enough to expect people to agree with me. I do not need nor want a "Support Group". I am comfortable in my own skin and have nothing what so ever to prove to you or any one else.

I am merely pointing out that in my opinion, the anti's present a real threat to the existance of our sport. If you or anyone else does not feel that way, that is your priveledge.

As I stated elsewhere, if I am wrong with my expectations, who the hell really cares?

If I am right however, we all lose and I will damn sure be the one to say " I Told You So".

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
All I am, trying to do, is get folks to think.

How ironic, the guy that puts no thought into anything is trying to provoke thought from others. What a joke

drummondlindsey, your post on what you believe to be the true threat of hunting hit the mark. Time is our biggest enemy. In a few years, our current facebook/youtube/twitter/texting society will not hunt and will not understand why their primitive relatives wanted to conduct such a low tech, barbaric sport. The average age of hunters is rising every year.

We have spent all our time, effort and resources fighting a threat that never had enough support to be a true threat. We have failed to educate society and worse yet, our own children. How many hunting buddies do you know that have "bunny hugging, pants sagging, MTV mentored" children that are scared of firearms and wouldn't kill a fly, let alone a deer? Heck, the number one gift that children have requested for Christmas the past couple of years has been a cell phone.

Time is not on our side and our own "all or nothing" radical ranting is very similar to the "all or nothing" radical ranting of PETA, USAS, etc. It sounds ridiculous at times and doesn't change anyone's opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
And Yes hyou are a rude individual, simply because if anyone does not view things from the exact same standpoint as you, they are beneath contempt and not on the same pious level that you believe yourself at. Too Damn Bad.

When you came out and stated that the states manage for trophy animals only I not only called you on it and asked you to provide some sort of documentation, I provided my thoughts as well as proof sources to show that you were not correct in that assertation. The best you could come up with was "this is what I see" which is just a little bit better than "nanny nanny boo boo".

I have tried to have an intelligent conversation with you but you absolutely refuse to provide any proof to substantiate your position on this. Its like debating a 5 year old.

I LOVE hearing other people viewpoints but if your going to tell me I'm wrong about something you had better at least provide something that would help me understand why I'm wrong. You have offered absolutely nothing of value to this discussion as well as other discussions like it.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
What you so conviently left out with your analysis, is the fact that you and people like you, BELIEVE that the way you view hunting is the only correct way, and that ANYONE that does not agree with you is trash of some kind.

Please go back and quote me where I said that the way I hunt is the only way to hunt. I would also like you to quote me where I called people trash for not agreeing with me. I look forward to seeing it

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:



I am sorry that you could not wrap your mind around that.

Since that was too difficult for you

I guess your snotty little remarks are so practiced, you don't even know you're making them.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:



I am sorry that you could not wrap your mind around that.

Since that was too difficult for you

I guess your snotty little remarks are so practiced, you don't even know you're making them.

They were true statements. It was obviously difficult for you to understand and you couldn't wrap your mind around it. I had to spell it out and then give you another example.

That being said, I apologize if I hurt your feelings and in the future I will take extra precautions with you to be more kind, caring and thoughtful.

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:



I am sorry that you could not wrap your mind around that.

Since that was too difficult for you

I guess your snotty little remarks are so practiced, you don't even know you're making them.

They were true statements. It was obviously difficult for you to understand and you couldn't wrap your mind around it. I had to spell it out and then give you another example.


That being said, I apologize if I hurt your feelings and in the future I will take extra precautions with you to be more kind, caring and thoughtful.

quote:

Please go back and quote me where I said that the way I hunt is the only way to hunt. I would also like you to quote me where I called people trash for not agreeing with me. I look forward to seeing it

Ever hear of the term/word, Infer? If I am wrong, I apologise, but when you stated that such activities as shooting deer inside a high fenced property was unethical, should be outlawed, and the people that participate in such activities are NOT hunters and the activity should not be referred to as Hunting, were you not infering that such people and activitiers were beneath contempt and that only certain ways, I believe you mentioned a hunt in the River of No Return wilderness area, were the only real hunting situations.

Did I miss something there. Also, since you and mr. Skinner brought this up with your seeming total lack of concern sabout the effects of the anti-hunting movement. With hunter numbers continueing to decline and age, prices continueing to increase, at which point will the antis begin presenting enough of a threat to catch your attention?

One of you mentioned time is against us. If that is so, whose side is it on? Possibly the anti's?

I am not ignorant/not stupid/don't believe in magic, all of which you have accused me of and after 175 resposes, one set of facts remain in tact.

The only thing all of us have in common is a love of hunting, and because we will never all view things the same, we will never be able to put together a united front to opppose those working to eake our sport from us.

I am quite sure someone will come along and tell me how wrong/stupid/ignorant or mis-informed that statement is.

I will continue to hunt for as long as my health and my goverment will let me. I only hope that those coming along after me will get to do the same, but it does not look all that promising to me.

I am sure I am wrong with that statement also, but I ain't gonna change the the way I feel about the future of hunting.

Drummond, I give the answers that work for me, I ain't gonna try and give any kind of answer that you will accept, because I learned a while back, no damn answer I give will satisfy you and I ain't gonna waste my time trying.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
No, what is absurd is that you or anyone else actually believes that I want ANYONE AT ALL to agree with anything I post.

That is your problem, not mine. I just give my opinions on subjects. All I am, trying to do, is get folks to think.

I am not egotistical enough to expect people to agree with me. I do not need nor want a "Support Group". I am comfortable in my own skin and have nothing what so ever to prove to you or any one else.

I am merely pointing out that in my opinion, the anti's present a real threat to the existance of our sport. If you or anyone else does not feel that way, that is your priveledge.

As I stated elsewhere, if I am wrong with my expectations, who the hell really cares?

If I am right however, we all lose and I will damn sure be the one to say " I Told You So".

Maybe you are right. I guess I am the one that is wrong here, because you would never try to hammer anyone for having a different viewpoint than you.... Wait a minute... It appears you started a thread doing just that. Holy crap it is this one!!

If you were not so abusive to anyone who posted a differing opinion, you would not get the response you do when discussing a subject. I urge you to go back and look at your threads and decide if it is everybody else, or maybe you that causes these arguments. Personally, my OPINION is that it is you and that you do it on purpose because you are lacking something in the real world.

quote:

Maybe you are right. I guess I am the one that is wrong here, because you would never try to hammer anyone for having a different viewpoint than you.... Wait a minute... It appears you started a thread doing just that. Holy crap it is this one!!

If you were not so abusive to anyone who posted a differing opinion, you would not get the response you do when discussing a subject. I urge you to go back and look at your threads and decide if it is everybody else, or maybe you that causes these arguments. Personally, my OPINION is that it is you and that you do it on purpose because you are lacking something in the real world.

So, expressing a different POV than someone else is hammering them? Trying to determine whether their POV is real and sincere or just something they stated just to fit in with a certain person or group is hammering them?

People do not seem to have a lot of trouble "Hammering" me over my opinions. That is their perogative. Mine is to see just how committed to an opinion and how informed the person making the statement is to that opinion, or find out if they just made the statement to try and fit in with a certain group or person.

The only thing I am ????LACKING???? in the REAL WORLD, is that I have fewer days infront of me than I do behind me.

What could I be ????LACKING???? Lora and I are fixing to celebrate our 20th. Wedding Anniversary on the 29th. of August. I worked as a gunsmith back in the early 70's building Mowery Black powder Rifles. I was a Zookeeper for 25 years at the Fort Worth Zoo. I have been a hunter for about 45 years and have been fortunate enough to have hunted in Texa and 6 other states and 2 Canadian provinces. Since 1998 I have worked part time as a hunting guide. Since 2009 I have worked full time as a guide and ranch hand on about 20K acres of land in archer and Young counties in north Texas. I am taking care of a herd of 16 buffalo. I am out in the pastures on a daily basis, able to hunt/fish, take care of the deer feeding equipment, drink a little beer. Surrounded by friends and aquaintences that I grew up around, older people that knew my parents before I was born.

The only place I ever have any trouble what so ever, is with people I have never and probably will never meet, on InterNet Forums. I don't have problem with everyone on the variou forums I am on, but if I am going to have trouble with some one, it will be on a forum.

What does any of that have to do with my opinion of the effects the anti's are having on hunting versus other people's opinions, Nothing.

I was raised up under the premise of respecting people that are able to form and stand by an opinion. I do not have to respect or agree with the opinion, just the fact that the person is capable of making one. I expect Nothing More from anyone reguarding my ability to form an opinion.

quote:

The only thing all of us have in common is a love of hunting, and because we will never all view things the same, we will never be able to put together a united front to opppose those working to eake our sport from us.

I am quite sure someone will come along and tell me how wrong/stupid/ignorant or mis-informed that statement is.

Not me. Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one. THe only thing I see here is if you don't like the way someone "hunts" hen they should no longer be allowed to do so. I've said this before and I guess I'll have to say it again, in caps this time. maybe it'll soak into your elitist heads. "UNITED WE STAND. DIVIDED WE FALL." THat is the issue. There are groups dedicated to one purpose, out law our right to hunt and they have the money to do it. Meanwhile we sit on our fat asses and bicker and insult each other one, "Either you do it my way or the highway." Time to get your heads out of your collective assholes and get some fresh air to feed some oxygenated blood to your brains.
I teach Hunter Ed and I see these kids who are intersted in hunting and AFAIK, sadly they may have that right/privelige taken away in the not too distant future. Like CHC, I don't have too many hunts left in what's left of my life. I'll take what ever I can get though and be damned grateful I can still do it by whatever means it takes.
Meanwhile, keep up this bullshit bickering childen. The antis love every minute of it and you give them the ammo to use against us. My, ain't you the smart ones.
Paul B.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

People do not seem to have a lot of trouble "Hammering" me over my opinions. That is their perogative. Mine is to see just how committed to an opinion and how informed the person making the statement is to that opinion, or find out if they just made the statement to try and fit in with a certain group or person.....


.....What does any of that have to do with my opinion of the effects the anti's are having on hunting versus other people's opinions, Nothing.....

....I was raised up under the premise of respecting people that are able to form and stand by an opinion. I do not have to respect or agree with the opinion, just the fact that the person is capable of making one. I expect Nothing More from anyone reguarding my ability to form an opinion.

The problem Crazy is that you havent really given us an opinion yet, all you have given anybody are assumptions and sadly I dont think that you know the difference.

An opinion is a subjective belief, and is the result of emotion or interpretation of FACTS. An opinion may be supported by an argument, although people may draw opposing opinions from the same set of facts. Here lies the problem Crazy, you have not given anybody and facts whatsoever, you just keep babbling on and ignore the people that ask you to substantiate your claims

An assumption is a thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof. Assumptions are dangerous when accepted as reality without thorough examination Crazy.

Did you understand that? "This is what I see" is not the basis for forming an opinion. For instance, I am an EMT and volunteer firefighter here where I live. If I roll up on a wreck and talk to the driver of the car and he is slurring his words and I turned around to the cop and said this guy is a drunk, do a field sobriety test, I have just made an assumption and a dangerous one at that. I have to give the driver a head to toe medical and trauma assessment to be able to form an educated opinion as to what may be causing him to slur his words. Could be a stroke, could be a diabetic needing glucose or maybe he is just drunk but to make assumptions without gathering facts is irresponsible and dangerous. Same holds true for the sport of hunting. Coming on here making ASSUMPTIONS with no facts to support them is dangerous and irresponsible and makes us all look like idiots.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Please go back and quote me where I said that the way I hunt is the only way to hunt. I would also like you to quote me where I called people trash for not agreeing with me. I look forward to seeing it

Ever hear of the term/word, Infer? If I am wrong, I apologise, but when you stated that such activities as shooting deer inside a high fenced property was unethical, should be outlawed, and the people that participate in such activities are NOT hunters and the activity should not be referred to as Hunting, were you not infering that such people and activitiers were beneath contempt and that only certain ways, I believe you mentioned a hunt in the River of No Return wilderness area, were the only real hunting situations.

I never said any of that! What's amazing is that you are literally either too stupid, stubborn or lazy to go back and look at the exact quote before going off and posting that kind of bullshit.

Here is the exact quote I made crazy, I never said it was unethical, should be outlawed or that the people that participated in it were not hunters. That's shit that you made up. You are unfu€~*ngbelievable

"Crazy, nobody is wanting to get high fenced hunting outlawed. Some people feel it isn't as sporting but they compare it to what they do. You cannot compare going in and smacking an animal in a 600 acre enclosure to going out and hunting elk and deer in the River of No Return Wilderness area in Idaho. You cannot compare an archery hunt where a guy sits in a tripod stand over a feeder where animals are conditioned to come in to an early season high country spot and stalk hunt at 12,000+ feet. It's apples to oranges

Hell, where I hunt you have the hardcore archery guys giving the rifle hunters a hard time telling them that rifle hunting isn't as ethical as archery hunting. They would literally laugh their ass off if somebody tried to tell them that a hunt in a 600 acre game ranch was "fair chase"."

Drummond your idea of what constitutes an opinion, just like your idea of what is or is not ethical, just like your idea of what is or is not hunting, are just that Your beliefs and concepts. Not Mine.

I think the anti's pose a greater threat than people want to admit to! That Is An opinion!

I think the various state game departments have been catering to the "Trophy" hunting segment of the population, in preference to people that just want to hunt! That Is An Opinion!

I believe that hunters, as a group will Never be able to set aside their petty differences and unite to try and put up some kind of opposition against the anti's! That Is An Opinion!

I believe we have to many idealistic/elitist individuals that believe that the way they choose to hunt, Is the ONLY Way! That their choice of Equipment is the ONLY type of equipment that should be used! That their definition of a "Trophy" is the ONLY one that matters! That believe their definition of who is and who is not a HUNTER is the only one that matters! Those are ALL opinions!

I base my OPINIONS, not on assumptions, but on what I am actually seeing/reading on sites like this one/reading on various Game and Fish department sites, actual conversations with other hunters around the country and my own observations.

A person does not have to base an opinion on verifiable facts, all that is neccessary to prove that, is to take a close look at our political system.

Why don't you get the PTB's on this site to require members to possess a certain level I.Q. score to be a member? That way the more enlightened would not have to suffer the musings of people you deem losers!

I can and will form any opinion I choose to and will stand by it, until someone proves me wrong. You have not proven me wrong about the real motivations of the various game departments in regards to their game management programs. All you have done is give YOUR opinion, you have not proven me wrong about the actual effect the various anti-hunting groups are having. All you have done is give YOUR opinion! You have not proven that anyone killing something inside a high fence is not a Hunter. All you have done is give YOUR opinion.

Your opinions matter to you, my opinions matter to me. As I have said, I can live with myself if my opinions are proven wrong, they are just opinions, nothing more. My world will not crash around my head if I am, wrong. I have lived long enough and experienced enough to have seen opinions I have made work out almost exactly the way I thought they would and I have had opinions that were way off what actually happened.

It has not stopped me from forming opinions and believing in those opinions. I am merely a human and as such make mistakes. The mistakes I make do not prevent me from living life and believing the way I do.

Real life terms, you or anyone else's opinions about me, especially people I will never meet or actually come in cotact with, amount to NOTHING in the overall scheme of my life. Your opinion of me, anyone else who has never met me or never will or have any kind of contact with me, Is Totally MEANINGLESS!!!!! This is the InterNet, Not Real Life.

quote:

Personally, my OPINION is that it is you and that you do it on purpose because you are lacking something in the real world.

Just to add something, I am recovering from an accident that some thought I was going to die from or at least hose my left arm, and even though I still have some stiffness and mobility issues, the left arm is still there, I am able to hunt and fish with only minimal difficulty, it has not slowed me down that much. Also, I have a good relationship with God!!!

So LH7 Please explain to me what my life is lacking?

quote:

What could I be ????LACKING????

Real world experience on the issues you're attempting to discuss here, particularly as it relates to the legislative and legal aspects. In CA and elsewhere.

You don't really have the depth of knowledge on most of this that comes with having been personally involved. That is obvious in many of the "examples" you've tried to provide, too many inaccuracies and too much opinion and personal bias.

Skinner, I have been hunting for a little while now and have been keeping up on what is taking place around America especially as it concernss hunting/hunters for the past 20 years.

Just because I don't view things the same way you do, does not make my opinions or observations invalid. You, like some of the other folks seem to have your own share of bias and personal opinions. I do not have any bias. The game departments are doing what they have to do for revenue, simple economics. Non-resident hunters, paying higher license fees, hiring guides, booking lodgings, etc. etc. etc. ALL bring in more $$$$$$$ than what residents pay out.

The difference is, Non-Residents, have No Control over the Game Departments of the various states, Residents DO. trying to say that does not have any effect on the decvision making process is ludicrous at best.

As far as I know I am not lacking in really anything that actually means anything, including the ability to see thru the blue smoke blown out about the real reasons the states set up the regulations the way they do. Hunting is big business and the states are smart enough to understand that and capitalize on that fact, when, where and as often as possible.

quote:

Just because I don't view things the same way you do, does not make my opinions or observations invalid.

A very weak answer that is way off target. You can't claim your opinions are valid when they are not based on real world experience.

quote:

As far as I know I am not lacking in really anything that actually means anything,

Sure you are, you do not have a background as an advocate for these issues in any meaningful forum outside of chatting online.

You do view things largely as I do, you're just stuck in your own mind due to your bias. The difference is that I actually do have experience on these issues since I have been directly involved in fighting a lot of what you're complaining about.

And, like most sportsmen, you are hamstrung by the same ol' conspiracy theories that take time and resources away from fighting the real fights.

quote:

I have been hunting for a little while now and have been keeping up on what is taking place around America especially as it concerns hunting/hunters for the past 20 years.

And you've never really done anything about it...............

I heard much the same things when I started lobbying on a couple bills back in 1986. All from life long hunters who'd never done any advocacy work.

"All your huntin' is going"

"You won't be able to do nothing in 20 years"

Might have been true if all had just whined about it and did nothing back then, fortunately enough didn't.

Trying to organize sportsmen is like trying to herd cats through a fish market.

quote:

Originally posted by Skinner.:

quote:

What could I be ????LACKING????

Real world experience on the issues you're attempting to discuss here, particularly as it relates to the legislative and legal aspects. In CA and elsewhere.

You don't really have the depth of knowledge on most of this that comes with having been personally involved. That is obvious in many of the "examples" you've tried to provide, too many inaccuracies and too much opinion and personal bias.

Skinner,

Thank you for saving me some typing time.

quote:

Skinner,

Thank you

You just made an important point without realizing it.

Ask those who have been actively engaged in these fights just how often they've ever heard the words, "Thank you" from any hunter, trapper or fisherman.

Most could probably count the times on one hand because it rarely happens.

Doing meaningful work on these issues is pretty much thankless, you'll spend a Hell of a lot of time doing it and a Hell of a lot of personal funds to do it.

Do it long enough and you'll look like a porcupine with all the knives stuck in your back by your supposed friends and allies.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
This is the InterNet, Not Real Life.

First of all, you dont need to capitalize the "N" in internet, its just one word. Thats been bugging the hell out of me.

Secondly, the internet is not just some mythical place that gives you the right to say stupid shit. You really need to find websites other than this one to play around on. Google would be a good one! Type in a subject you want to educate youself on and all sorts of useful information pops up. Stuff that you then may be able to use to form an EDUCATED opinion.

You want us to take you seriously and you want us to really believe that you have some sort of intelligence greater than that of pond algea yet you could not even get it right when you tried to quote me earlier. You could not even get my quote right and that was in black and white on this very thread.

Your unwillingness to try to gain an understanding of what your talking about is offensive

First of all I do not care what bugs you.

Secondly, I have not noticed anywhere that ylou are among the PTB's that run this site. If you are PLEASE show proof?

I, am not an egotistical little POS prick. I do not care whether anyone takes me seriously or not. The intelligent people on this site seem to ignore me, so that gives prime evidence of your intelligence.

I understand completely about what I am talking about, and the fact that I have not bought into the same that you have. You made that choice not me. If InterNet popularity means so much to you, you can have it!

quote:

I understand completely about what I am talking about,

Do all the other voices in your head join in a chorus of agreement with that assessment or is there dissension ?

Crazyhorse....why, when you quote another member why do you omit that members name?

And this seems like the appropriate time to post this photo......

[QUOTE]I am not an egotistical little POS prick. I do not care whether anyone takes me seriously or not. The intelligent people on this site seem to ignore me, so that gives prime evidence of your intelligence.[/QUOTE

That's telling them CHC, LOL!!!

Ted Thorn---Lots of people besides CHC, including myself, do that all the time because we just C/P what we want to put up!

quote:

Crazyhorse....why, when you quote another member do you omit that members name?

How about I figure if someone is following the thread, they will know who I am quoting?????? Have you been following this thread or made any comments on it before NOW???????

Crazy, I have stated in an earlier post that I have no problem with people shooting animals behind a high fence, from a helicopter, or even through the internet like the enterprising Texan developed a couple years ago. I am ok with this, BUT can we agree not to put these activities under the name of hunting?

If people could pursue this way of taking animals as long as they can't call it hunting would that be ok with you? Would the folks that partake in the high fence, etc taking of animals be ok with continuing to do this with out the name hunting attached too it. Is it the ability to continue this activity or be called a "hunter"that is important? Then those that partake in this form of shooting sport and the business owners who provide the opportunity could defend themselves. I shot a bison many years ago on a local ranch. It was a blast and a memorable experience, but it wasn't hunting. It did taste great and had a beautiful hide, but it still wasn't hunting. Some of my buddies even tried to give me a hard time for shooting this animal, but I just said, "I never said it was a hunt." They had nothing to say after that, because it was true.

Could it be that there are certain forms of killing animals that want to be in the big tent of hunting that just don't belong? Just a question.

Maybe hunting will be brought down not by "anti's" but having to defend practices that are not actually hunting. Just a thought.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Crazyhorse....why, when you quote another member do you omit that members name?

How about I figure if someone is following the thread, they will know who I am quoting?????? Have you been following this thread or made any comments on it before NOW???????

True color? CHC? I asked a question..... Your reaction tells me all I need to know

quote:

Crazy, I have stated in an earlier post that I have no problem with people shooting animals behind a high fence, from a helicopter, or even through the internet like the enterprising Texan developed a couple years ago. I am ok with this, BUT can we agree not to put these activities under the name of hunting?

See, Slim I did have a problem and a real problem with the concept of the internet animal killing concept. That was in no shape, form or manner hunting and I wa damn glad it did not get started and was outlawed.

quote:

If people could pursue this way of taking animals as long as they can't call it hunting would that be ok with you? Would the folks that partake in the high fence, etc taking of animals be ok with continuing to do this with out the name hunting attached too it. Is it the ability to continue this activity or be called a "hunter"that is important? Then those that partake in this form of shooting sport and the business owners who provide the opportunity could defend themselves. I shot a bison many years ago on a local ranch. It was a blast and a memorable experience, but it wasn't hunting. It did taste great and had a beautiful hide, but it still wasn't hunting. Some of my buddies even tried to give me a hard time for shooting this animal, but I just said, "I never said it was a hunt." They had nothing to say after that, because it was true.

This is where the problem arises Slim. The simple use of a word/words, Hunter-Hunting. Does your shooting of the buffalo on the local ranch mean that you are not a hunter, or does it simply mean that on that occasion your were merely a shooter? Going to a high fenced operation and shooting something does not brand a person as a Non-Hunter for life. The person may have a deer camp somewhere on private or public land with lots of unfenced/low fenced land around it and they, for whatever their reason, decide to avail themselves of going to a high fenced operation to shoot an exotic. Does that automatically negate all the hunting they had been doing up to that time? No it does not. Does that negate any and all future hunting they may do? Again, No it does not.

Do all the folks that have hunted the multiple thousands of acre places in Africa or Texas need to stop refering to themselves as hunters and what they did on their trip as hunting, I do not think so. One thing that I have not made clear, even though I alluded to it in a response to a comment made by Phil Shoemaker/458win when he asked me if I had ANY ethics.

quote:

Yes, I do have ethics. To me, purposely setting up and shooting at game animals over 500 yards is not ethical.

To me it is unethical for a hunter to hire a guide crew that goes out and locates one specific animal on Public Land and the follows that animal for days, if not weeks, and harasses other hunters trying to hunt the area, just so the "Sport" can come out and shoot the "Trophy".

As far as the InterNet hunting goes, ethics in any manner did not enter my mind. It should never have been legal, period, regardless of the species involved, deer or exotics, even feral hogs.

I am not defending method/equipment etc. etc. etc., I am defending peoples right to refer to themselves as a Hunter and what they do as Hunting. If a person wants to climb into a damn oven and call themselves a bisquit, Who The Hell Cares. I am a hunter and then only person that represents me as a Hunter is me.

Before you or anyone else says that I am not a hunter, which someone will, it is the InterNet afterall and everyone's soul is on Public Display, I have made 2 trips up to the Pine Ridge area in Nebraska and killed deer on the Soldier Creek Wilderness Area north of Fort Robinson, and I, maybe somewhat simple minded, consider that hunting.

I think at my age and with what little experience I have had, it does not take me but just a few minutes listening to someone to know whether they actually hunt or are a hunter, or if they are a drug store cowboy. But it ain't my place to belittle them or rain on their parade.

If they are happy and comfortable with what they do/have done, they enjoy owning and buying guns and bows and all the associated equipment and try to fit into camp, I don't see the problem. If they want to be a total ass about it, kind of like me, I do not have to set and visit with them I can go find someone else to talk to or something else to do.

In reality, long range shooting, shooting animals inside a manipulated i.e. feeders & too many animals on minimal acreage, helicopter hogs, are all just that, Shooting. I just do not care if a person wants to call it hunting, it is not a big deal to me. Nor i it a big deal if they want to call themselves a hunter.

I can guarantee it does not matter to the antis, they want it all stopped. One little aspect the zealots may be overlooking, is that high fenced/private property "hunting" may be the ONLY "hunting" left if the anti's have their way. Getting hunting shut down on Public Land is a real threat.

It will be harder to stop Private Landowners from doing what they wish with what has the potential of becoming Privately owned livestock, but that is a whole different kettle of fish.

With legalized baiting and high fence more and more people have become shooters then hunters.

I have shot critters over bait but never hunted a high fence property. Hunting over bait is more shooting then hunting to me.

I would much rather still hunt,do drives,run the hounds then hunt over bait.

I do it all.

Some things like bears in thick woods unless one baits or has axcess to hounds one has very little chance to get one.

I'll take the hounds any day over bait.

Personally I belive the legalized baiting of deer has ruined a lot of deer hunters in Wis. making them shooters not hunters.

Sitting in a heated box stand watching a bait pile, then shooting your deer is a lot less hunting then shooting.

I agree when the anti's attack one form they are trying to do away with all forms one at a time.

Baiting in some areas has become a defensive issue. Your neighbor baits heavey draws all the deer onto his property so one baits trying to draw them back.

Just some thoughts on a rainy day