quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Dummondlindsey, I'll type this real slow so's you can understand it.
Take you loud, sarcastic, abusive mouth and the head it's attached to and stick it up your ass. Can you wrap your head around that?
You wonder why sportsmen can't present a common front? Everytime someone starts a decent, calm discussion, there's someone like you that believes "my way or the highway" and if I get sarcastic enough, loud enough, it'll prove I'm right.
Go ahead and make your loud, abusive rebuttal but I've got nothing else to say to you.

Wow

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

I know of people that have shot "trophy size" animals in very small enclosures in TX and in Canada and proudly show the pictures and talk about the "hunt". Completely unethical in my opinion but legal.

If you were to put a mortally wounded deer down and not tag it you technically have broken a law but it was the ethical thing to do.

I find abortion, gay marriage and prostitution unethical but all are legal in all or parts of the US.

Right on the money........my sentiments exactly.

My take on hunting is this:

It may be a legal right to hunt in many states, but it should also be treated as a privlidge, one we could lose if we don't maintain a very strict ethical standard and do the best we can do to "hide the blood" element of hunting from the average non-hunter.

The Germans have a very long process to become a hunter, in most cases it takes almost a year. As a population of their country hunters in Germany are a tiny percent.

We have one of the largest percentages of hunters per capita in the world. We also have one of the shortest hunter training modules of any nation.

We also have less regulations than most other nations, though we are policed by Game Wardens and a lot of European Nations do not have such a concept.

I think the 3 biggest enemies of the hunting community are as follows:

1. The slob antics of hunting television shows. To include; showing the wounded shot footage, showing footage of retrieving the animal the next, and spending the entire show talking about points and score and inches.

2. The concept that hunter recruitment is more important than ethics. We are all about numbers and not quality, why?

3. Women don't like it when we talk about them as a number, and a lot of the non-hunting public doesn't like it when we talk about a big game animal as a score. We need to refocus our efforts and talk about shooting mature male animals past their breeding age. I am happy to shoot an animal that's horns have gone downhill from a couple years past, that means he's too old to breed.

Hunters Video www.huntersvideo.dk has a DVD out on hunting red deer at Berelberg Castle in Germany. Berleberg is known as a hot spot for red deer and the guy that owns it only takes a trophy stag when he is 12 or 14 years old (I can't remember which). They shoot cull stags as necessary but that part isn't in the video.

I love that idea, lets go back to killing old males and quit talking about score.

IMHO the wasbeeman was way out of line on those last two posts as there was no talk of road kill in the scenario he mentioned and the response by DL was not out of line as far as I can see. The second post was especially bad and more like a little kid who lost a fair game with the better player and took the rest of his marbles and went home crying, LOL!

I want to edit that to say " The 3 biggest enemies WITHIN the hunting community."

We Have Met The Enemy And He Is Us.

Don't think killing animals behind a high fence is ethical, get it stopped!

Don't think bow hunting is ethical because there is a greater chance of losing a wounded animal, get it stopped.

Don't think long range shooting/shooting pigs from helicopters/using night vision optics/hunting over bait OF ANY KIND/using a .223 for hunting deer and larger game and a list that goes on and on of what Individual hunters believe are unethical practices, get them stopped.

Let's do the anti's job for them. The laws we have at present came from people finding such things as year round hunting, using vehicles and spotlights etc. etc. etc. as being unethical and they worked to get them stopped.

So that is what we all need to do now. Take our Indivdual Lists of what we as Individuals feel are unethical practices to our Game Depts. and petition them to end these practices.

CA Safari Hunter this is for you.

quote:

Once again Californian hunters knew what has been going on for a long time and could not stop it because of the voting numbers we have here.

Personally its hard to listen to a guy about “hunters sticking together” when you bring up California so much and make the comments you make.

All of the hunters in the remaining 49 states could have thrown their entire support behind California hunters and it would not have changed one thing, Because our opinions do not matter because we are not eligible to vote in California.

I think we should all make it our goal to stop being concerned about the anti hunters and start working toward getting any practice we determine as unethical outlawed.

That is the answer! Or is it?

Is the real problem not a case of ethics but a problem with people referring to something as hunting or theselves as hunters when they do something a few other folks do not view as "REAL" hunting?

Edit

Crazyhorse,

Exactly. We are our own enemy.

And 99% of the hunters out there won't do a damn thing about it except wine and cry when it's all over.

In looking back at discussions similar to this one, not only on this site but others as well, while the Ethical vs. Unethical flags get unfurled and accusations are made on all sides, there is one constant mentioned, as often posibly even more so, and that is how different individuals determine what they feel is or is not really hunting and the use of the word hunting to describe those activities.

After a person decides that an activity is not "Hunting" in their concept of the word, then they take the next step and label it as Unethical. Once that point is reached it is a simple matter to slide into the concept that if a persson does not feel that the activity is actual hunting and therefore unethical in their opinion, that being considered a legal method by the agency having jurisdiction over the activity is just wrong and the activity needs to be outlawed.

I am beginning to believe that is the real issue. It is not really ethical/unethical actions that many folks are actually concerned with, it is their interpretation of what should be considered hunting and what should not be considered hunting.

Personally I have a problem with the term "Sport Hunting". I feel that is what got the ball rolling with the anti hunting movement. A "Sport" to many people around the world means an activity where participants have fun, but one or some of the participants do not die.

Somebody just SHOOT ME!

friar

458Win is hitting my thoughts.

The problem with these discussions is that one's definition of "Hunting" is based on different ideals. To some, hunting is a culture/spirit. To others it is a social/ego pastime. And everything in between.

I grew up in the West on a ranch. Game roamed wild and free. You hunted them on their turf, in their bedroom. They knew better than the person. We wanted to be successful BUT the possibility of not killing is what made the hunt fulfilling.

When I see "put and take" "hunting" operations it does not sit right with me. It never will. The animals do not have time to get to know their environment and the hunter is assured of his kill to fulfill the ego. This is an ethical issue.

Nothing of what I say will change minds, but it is what it is.

quote:

Originally posted by friarmeier:
Somebody just SHOOT ME!

friar

Lmao!

Crazy posting this and asking for opinions is like a damn woman asking "do I look fat in this dress?". Chances are if a woman has to ask she knows she looks fat and all honesty will get you is a stay on the couch

Crazy, nobody is wanting to get high fenced hunting outlawed. Some people feel it isn't as sporting but they compare it to what they do. You cannot compare going in and smacking an animal in a 600 acre enclosure to going out and hunting elk and deer in the River of No Return Wilderness area in Idaho. You cannot compare an archery hunt where a guy sits in a tripod stand over a feeder where animals are conditioned to come in to an early season high country spot and stalk hunt at 12,000+ feet. It's apples to oranges

Hell, where I hunt you have the hardcore archery guys giving the rifle hunters a hard time telling them that rifle hunting isn't as ethical as archery hunting. They would literally laugh their ass off if somebody tried to tell them that a hunt in a 600 acre game ranch was "fair chase".

Your doomsday theory's don't really strike a chord with me. We all have different opinions of what's ethical and what's not and that's our right and that's how it will always be. What we all do have in common is a love for a sport and a hatred for anybody that would try to take that away from us in any capacity. Hunting isn't going to be outlawed Crazy. There's too much money in it. The Feds may do stupid shit from time to time but as a whole I feel that our sport is safe.

There’s a ranch in CA that lets people “hunt”. They release hogs, goats and sheep. And even in the great state of CA, a person does not need a hunting license to participate. Do you know why? Because even the f’d up state of California knows its not hunting.

Drummond, you believe what you want to and I will believe in what I am seeing from both sides.

As I stated earlier, the real crux of the matter has nothing to do with ethical/unethical concepts. It has to do with people having a personal problem with anyone describing an activity as hunting, when others do not feel that same way.

I do not feel our "Sport" is safe and that "Hunting" in the not to distant future will look nothing like it does today.

Outlaw hunting if you want
I'm grandfathered in and will NEVER stop.
That's a fact that isn't open to discussion.

quote:

Originally posted by ravenr:
Outlaw hunting if you want
I'm grandfathered in and will NEVER stop.
That's a fact that isn't open to discussion.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner! I'm right there with you Flaco!

The antis are working to take away all hunting. Trapping, bowhunting and high fence are first in their sights.

There are lots of hunting concepts I don't agree with, and a big part of my own ego wants me to help push those people off the ledge.

The reality is that anything we do to discredit parts of hunting we don't consider to be ethical just helps the antis.

Mostly I just like to hunt with a rifle or specialty pistol and I like to trap. I know that I'll never get to take part in a whale hunt on a early late 1800s whaling vessel, but I want to.

I am not a fan of bowhunting, I used to bitch about their wound/loss rates. You have the admire the groups ability to come together, in Arizona and New Mexico they damn near own the majority hunting in those states. Because they came together and lobbied, and the rifle hunters just sat on their ass and didn't do anything about it.

We should all take that lesson as a reality that we have the strength in numbers to change things. We just have to get off our ass comit our dollars and do it.

I like to fish, but I don't love it. In fishing I don't want to be forced to use a fly with a barbless hook on trout. Because I am going to eat the bastards. Fishers have done just as much to screw one another as hunters have.

quote:

I'm grandfathered in and will NEVER stop.

Yes, and at one time people said we wouldn't have a black president and that the Titanic was unsinkable.

The more I think about it and more I look back over the past few years, the clearer it becomes that the issue is not about ethics, right or wrong, or any legalities involved.

It is purely an elitist attitude of what is and is not REAL hunting and who is and is not a REAL hunter, and the use of the words Hunting and Hunter.

Be damned the Anti-hunting movement and any effects they are having toward getting hunting stopped, that does n ot matter.

What matters is that unless another person adheres strictly to some unknown/unpublished code of what constitutes real hunting and being a real hunter, they have no right to refer to themselves as a Hunter or to what they do as Hunting.

Everything apart from the purist/elitist definition of hunting should be considered unethical and outlawed A.S.A.P.

Here is a short list of activities that are Not Hunting, are Unethical, and should be outlawed. Forgive me if it reads like a Jeff Foxsworthy, "You Might Be A Redneck If" skit.

1. If you have ever shot anything inside a High Fenced area, You, are not a Hunter and You were not Hunting!

2. If you have ever shot an animal at an automated feeder/bait pile/food plot/mineral lick or waterhole, You, are not a Hunter and You were not Hunting.

3. If you have ever shot an animal from a vehicle or with in-sight of a vehicle or road, You are not a Hunter and You were not Hunting.

4. If you have ever shot anything within the first 24 hours of getting into hunting camp, You are not a Hunter and You were not Hunting.

This list goes on and on depending on the level of purity of the "Real" Hunters setting in their Kangaroo Court passing judgement on the unworthy.

To me, it is funny and pathetic all at the same time, because there are "Hunters" that are just as idealistic and misguided as the Eco-Greeniers that would rather see species go extinct than allow them to be managed including hunting, even if it meant saving the species.

There are "Hunters" just as pious and narrow visioned that would rather see people lose the ability to participate in a legally sanctioned activity, than have those people refer to themselves as "Hunters" and what they enjoy doing referred to as "Hunting".

Yes, the future of hunting looks real secure to me.

Here's my own "go/ no-go" parameters. I have come to these criteria for myself (and to a similar degree when choosing who I hunt with). I think it's reasonable to encourage others to have like-minded ideas as these, but I'll stop short of presuming to insist that everyone think the way I think

1. I know how far I can shoot. It's about 300 yards. I've made some nice shots at about 240 - 270, and I've missed some doozies at 450+. Why in God's green earth I was shooting that far that day, only Testosterone knows . Sometimes people get excited and make bad decisions and take shots that are too far for their abilities. That's too bad - sad really - and I've been there myself. There's another thread right now that spotlights this, and you can probably guess which one it is.

2. I try not to brag about the shots I've made or the game I've taken (Lord, it's hard to be humble). I like to have my ego stroked as much as the next guy, but it's a looser's game for wanna-be's & has-beens.

3. I consider hunting to be exclusive of high-fences. Yes, there can be elements of hunting inside an enclosure, like stalking, spotting, travel corridors (well, maybe), etc. But if the game can only escape for the next hour, or only that same day, then it's not really "fair chase", is it?

4. It's important to me that I shoot as well as possible & kill (yes, KILL) the animal as quickly as possible. That mean's I'm starting to pass-up low probability shots & re-think shots I've taken in the past. Trying to do so is good for the animal, for me, for my fellow hunters (who don't have to listen to 10-20 rounds popped off), and our non-hunting neighbors.

5. I don't give a rat's ass what Anti's think. But I do care very much - VERY MUCH - what fence sitters believe. To that end, I choose not to hunt with an AR; I choose to be aware of the surroundings when I have a carcas to be tagged; I try to have positive conversations with non-hunters and non-shooters about our sport (sport - because I'm not subsiting off the game).

Finally; yes, many things are legal. I would not pass judgment on anyone who hunts/shoots/traps in a legal way. But I will politely suggest that if you don't give a damn about what the general public thinks, then you might as well put away your weapons forever, because hunting will be no more. Someone said that lots of things are legal, but that doesn't make them ethical. Put it another way, would you be proud of your children if they chose to do it?

And remember, it's not just the Anti's who think of animals as "people". It's called anthropomorphism (read: projection), and it's what turns otherwise rational people into bunny huggers.

Now, wtf have I spent the last 30 minutes thinking about this! FritZ!

friar

CHC, I have an honest question for you. Do you have any ethics other than if it's legal ?
That is a good start but is it all?
What was your take on the guy from Texas who was offering hunts on-line where you logged in and could see deer coming into a bait station and with a click of your mouse could remotely aim and fire a rifle. then someone would retrieve and butcher the deer for you and ship it to your home. It was legal for awhile so do you consider that hunting?

Excellent post.

quote:

Here's my own "go/ no-go" parameters. I have come to these criteria for myself (and to a similar degree when choosing who I hunt with). I think it's reasonable to encourage others to have like-minded ideas as these, but I'll stop short of presuming to insist that everyone think the way I think

I think if more hunters had that type attitude it would be easier for us to get organised and work to discredit the antis. Somehow I do not ever see that happening.

quote:

Do you have any ethics other than if it's legal ?

Yes, I do have ethics. To me, purposely setting up and shooting at game animals over 500 yards is not ethical.

To me it is unethical for a hunter to hire a guide crew that goes out and locates one specific animal on Public Land and the follows that animal for days, if not weeks, and harasses other hunters trying to hunt the area, just so the "Sport" can come out and shoot the "Trophy".

As far as the InterNet hunting goes, ethics in any manner did not enter my mind. It should never have been legal, period, regardless of the species involved, deer or exotics, even feral hogs.

One thing I have noticed about the InterNet versus what I have witnessed during my somewhat limited hunting career. InterNet hunters seem to be be in possession of a higher and stricter level of ethics than what I have witnessed in real time situations.

From my experience, personal ethical standards seem to have a real strong habit of slipping away into the realm of situational ethics and also suffer a lessening of intensity depending on who the hunters are in camp with and how close the end of ther hunt is getting. Fact is, I have been in a few camps, both as a client and as a guide, where during the last day or two of a hunt, ethics got tossed out the window and people were ready to start skirting legalities.

Yes, I have ethics, but I do not try to force them on anyone else nor do I declare that just because another person does not practice what I consider real/actual hunting that those folks are not hunters and what they are doing is not hunting.

If they want to consider themsrelves a hunter and what they enjoy as being hunting, be my guest. It ain't a big deal to me. If it is something I personally do not want to do, I do not do it, pretty cut and dried.

Just as noticing the difference between claimed ethics on the InterNet and actual in the field ethics, I have rarely seen the two actually match up.

Yes, I have ethics, but not at the same level of intensity as some on here claim, but, I am honest about it.

I sleep peacefully at night knowing that what I do when in the field is legal and that even though others may make claims of having a Higher Ethical standard, they DO NOT pay for my hunting license/guns/shells or the hunts I do, so their supposed Holier Than Thou, Pious attitude amounts to Nothing.

I hunt because I like to. I hunt legally because that is what I am, supposed to do, and if there is a form of hunting I do not like or want to do, I don't, but, as long as it is legal and other people like doing it, it is no skin of my fat ass, and I do not care if they want to call themselves hunters or Louis Armstrong or if they want to call what they are doing hunting/harvesting/killing, it is their damn business and none of my concern.

The shortened version of above is, Yes I do have ethics, but they are tempered with real life experiences.

It sounds like you and I would get along just fine in a hunting camp

I have always felt that many folks on these site would most likely get along quite well in a hunting camp setting around the campfire talking and being themselves.

To me the internet it is just too easy for things to be taken out of context and I am as guilty or maybe more so of that than anyone.

Anyone who thinks hunting wolves from an airplane should try it sometime. I was stationed in Alaska in the late '60's when they opened it. A friend, who was a long time guide ask if I wanted to try it and when I said yer he told me to bring a couple of boxes of 12ga ammo over the next day and we would fly out over the flats at low tide and he would put me thru "gunnery school" (he was a Marine figher-pilot in WWII)to see it could cut it --- leaning out of a Super Cub, with a short-barrels 12ga semi-auto in a 70+ mph wind trying NOT to hit the strut or propeller while hitting a stump at 70 mph isn't quite as easily as it looks.

The 1st week-end it was open we flew for about 6 hours and actually made low-level passes (20' off the ground) over 4 or 5 wolf packs without getting a shot -- wolves somehow knew when I was ready to shoot as they tended to drift to the left under the airplane -- which could have 2 bad consequneces -- you get to intent and don't remember "not to shoot the prop" or the pilot, wanted to keep the wolf on the right-side so the shooter can fire could bank the airplane and drag a wingtip thru the snow -- either of which would be a negative result for the pilot and shooter. Flying back to Anchorage we suprised a fairly large pack and I managed to roll a big male with 2 quick shots -- remembering not to shoot the prop, not to shoot the strut and finally to apply negatiive lead.

As I recall our's was one of only three shot statewide that weekend - there were, however two crashes and several fatalities from crews that didn't follow the 2 golden rules. The "Anti's" reveled in the death of the crews. The next time we went out we spent the weekend flying and again we saw multiple packs each day we never came close to getting a shot.

During that winter we flew, depending on the weather and my duty schedule, more than a dozen times and managed to shoot a least one wolf each day we flew.

Was this ethical? I looked at it as a way to help the State provide some relief to the moose in the State. Was it exciting? Damn right it was. It was also very expensive for someone drawing Lt's pay but the bounty helped as did selling the hides -- didn't come close to covering the cost of gas etc.


Is it ethical to hunt Polar Bear using two airplanes to spot them and then have the plane with the shooter land to take the shot while the other plane flew cover in case the pilot read the wind or show condition wrong.

I personally don't have a problem sitting over a leopard or lion bait but I'm not sure of all the archer's I see hunting over permanent blinds over-looking water-holes.

There are a lot of hunter's who think the typical African safari isn't ethical as all client needs to do is (1) be able to pay for the safari as the PH and staff do all the "hunting and (2) shooting fairly well.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

One thing I have noticed about the InterNet versus what I have witnessed during my somewhat limited hunting career. InterNet hunters seem to be be in possession of a higher and stricter level of ethics than what I have witnessed in real time situations.

From my experience, personal ethical standards seem to have a real strong habit of slipping away into the realm of situational ethics and also suffer a lessening of intensity depending on who the hunters are in camp with and how close the end of ther hunt is getting. Fact is, I have been in a few camps, both as a client and as a guide, where during the last day or two of a hunt, ethics got tossed out the window and people were ready to start skirting legalities.

Truest thing I've ever see you post

quote:

Truest thing I've ever see you post

Thank you I guess. Problem is everything I post is as true and honest a I can possibly state it. Everything I post or respond with is based on my experiences/feeling/beliefs on any of the issues I comment on.

With real rare exceptions, no two of us were raised in the exact same manner, with-in the exact same socio-economic peer group, at the exact same time in history, under the exact same conditions or with the exact same values.

We are all Individuals or should be. I have no reason to lie, nothing to prove to anyone on this site or any other site or in real life. We don't all share the same exact experiences in life, we don't all share the exact same philosophies about life or our role in it.

As far as I am concerned ethics became the buzz word topic in so many facets of our lives in the late 70's, early 80's with people continually trying to prove that they operate/do business on a higher plain than those around them and I just don't buy into a lot of that and never have.

In my hunting life time, I have shot three deer, illegally. Two were hung up in a barb wire fence and one had been shot through the back hams with a large caliber rifle. Was it ethical, absolutely? Was it legal, nope. I have gone out of my way to shoot a mangy coyote, standing at a tank trying to drink and could not because of the ulcer’s in his mouth and on his tongue. Ethical, yes.


High fence hunting, to me, is not ethical but it is legal. There are those raising large, trophy deer on a thousand acres where it would take ten thousand acres to raise the same, free range deer. Dollars and bragging rights is what I see about high fence shooting.


I consider myself a hunter and not a shooter. There are times where I hunt more with a spotting scope than rifle scope. I have gone three years in Mexico hunting one particular big twelve point whitetail that had got big by not being dumb. I made a couple of mistakes and he took advantage of them. He won. The last time I saw the deer he was standing in a sendero, head down like he was just wore out and was asking me to shoot him, I grabbed my rifle but thinking a minute and seeing that you could count every rib and see his hip bones he was at the end of his life, I let him walk. He had won the battle and he deserved to walk and live his life out however. It is the memories and knowledge gained that make the hunt a hunt, not actually pulling the trigger.


So much is made about inches of antlers. We see it on the hunting shows, read about it and probably actually heard it in person about that magic 170 inch mark and the lengths some will go to, to get that 170 inch mark, that is where the high fence controversy comes into play. Ethical???? I am content with the trophy’s I have and would not trade the hunt and memories for anything.


Oh yeah, the last few days of deer season. So many young deer have been needlessly shot at that time. I know two guys whom have/are hunting down in Mexico and brought back a couple of 130-140 deer. Why I asked? Because it was the last day, we had to leave the next day. You don’t go hunting down there and bring back that type of deer and try to show them off. Personally, I would have never pulled the trigger on the deer just to bring some antlers home. That is something that I still just don’t know the answer to.


Hunting pigs out of an aircraft or at night with high capacity semis is not enough. They are out of control and more needs to be done to curb the rising populations? It is legal but is it ethical?


If you hunt, you most obviously know the laws about hunting in your state. Follow the laws and use a little common sense, if you don’t know the laws, ask a game warden, he will let you in on them in a most professional and clear manner so there will be no misunderstanding.

quote:

I consider myself a hunter and not a shooter. There are times where I hunt more with a spotting scope than rifle scope. I have gone three years in Mexico hunting one particular big twelve point whitetail that had got big by not being dumb. I made a couple of mistakes and he took advantage of them. He won. The last time I saw the deer he was standing in a sendero, head down like he was just wore out and was asking me to shoot him, I grabbed my rifle but thinking a minute and seeing that you could count every rib and see his hip bones he was at the end of his life, I let him walk. He had won the battle and he deserved to walk and live his life out however. It is the memories and knowledge gained that make the hunt a hunt, not actually pulling the trigger.

Not meaning to stir up anything, but what favor did you do that old buck? How ethical was it to purposely leave an animal to starve to death or get drug down by coyotes or a mountain lion.

See, to me that is an unethical choice, the animal evidently was in an easily discernible weakened condition from your description, what was the real difference between the animals hung in the fence and this obviously, at least in your opinion, weakened animal?

You say shooting animals inside a high fence is unethical on one hand and then turn around and say this:

quote:

It is the memories and knowledge gained that make the hunt a hunt, not actually pulling the trigger.

Does that only apply to certain people or everyone? What nhappened to the concept of a person doing something, including hunting, for their own satisfaction and enjoyment. Why have so many people came to the conclusion that everyone should follow the same unwritten code of what they should shoot, when they should shoot of it, and whether or not they should be proud of what they shot?

quote:

Not meaning to stir up anything, but what favor did you do that old buck? How ethical was it to purposely leave an animal to starbve to death or get drug down by coyotes or a mountain lion.

See, to me that is an unethical choice, the animal evidently was in an easily discernible weakened condition from your description, what was the real difference between the animals hung in the fence aqnd this obviously, at least in your opinion, weakened animal?

10-4.

To add:

I have several feral cats that live in my yard, including three kittens born about 6 weeks ago.

One of those was obviously the runt of the litter and quite frail looking. He developed some sort of infection in both eyes where the pupils are actually bulging way outward with a creamy yellow pus behind them that is constantly oozing. Watching it move around makes me assume it is pretty much blind.

I have let it live for a couple weeks that way but decided last night that I will kill it this morning since the trash pickup takes place this afternoon.

CHC,
I have seen young deer killed by lions, good healthy young deer. That old buck had beaten me and I was not going to shoot him just for shooting sake. After the rut down there it is not uncommon for those bucks to lose 40-50-60 lbs. of body weight, we/I have seen 3-4-5 yr. old bucks with their ribs showing as well, poor body weight. That has been nature ways since before all of us were hunting.

I said that I savor the memories of the hunt for myself; I was not implying that everyone should feel that way. That is just me. I go hunting try to find a buck that I would like to take and then hunt him. If I get him I have had a good hunt, if not, there is always next year. I don’t pull the trigger just for the sake of shooting a deer.

I personally would not hunt behind a high fence and if there are those who want to so be it. Like I said, I don’t particularly like the idea, but it is legal.

quote:

Not meaning to stir up anything, but what favor did you do that old buck? How ethical was it to purposely leave an animal to starve to death or get drug down by coyotes or a mountain lion.

See, to me that is an unethical choice, the animal evidently was in an easily discernible weakened condition from your description, what was the real difference between the animals hung in the fence and this obviously, at least in your opinion, weakened animal?

Agree with CHC 100% on this one!

Question for swifter 220: Seeing as you live in central Texas, do you hunt whitetails and hogs on low fenced ranches with feeders of any type? If you do and then say that you would never hunt one of those huge HF ranches that are common throughout Texas, that would IMHO be more than a little hypocritical. The reason I ask this is because of the close to 100% use of corn "spin feeders" on ranches throughout Texas, regardless of whether they are low or high fenced.

I hunt hogs yes, I have not deer hunted up here since I quite Mexico in 2006.

We used NO FEEDERS in Mexico deer hunting and I have no feeder where I hunt hogs. However, I do hunt hogs around corn fields, wheat fields, maze fields and I have baited hogs by burying corn in the ground.

quote:

Originally posted by swifter 220:
CHC,
I have seen young deer killed by lions, good healthy young deer. That old buck had beaten me and I was not going to shoot him just for shooting sake. After the rut down there it is not uncommon for those bucks to lose 40-50-60 lbs. of body weight, we/I have seen 3-4-5 yr. old bucks with their ribs showing as well, poor body weight. That has been nature ways since before all of us were hunting.

####
I grabbed my rifle but thinking a minute and seeing that you could count every rib and see his hip bones he was at the end of his life, I let him walk.

Which was it -- the end of the rut or the end of his life?

Ok, I give up which? You seem to be an expert.

I say I saw an old buck that LOOKED like he was really run down, MAYBE at the end of his NATURAL life and I let him walk. HE WAS WALKING, not hung up in a fence, had not been shot by another hunter, W A L K I N G. What the heck is your problem with that?

Our problem is that if he was the buck you were hunting for that long and was past his breeding age and in bad shape that is normally what a trophy hunter is looking for regardless of the antler size when you finally see a buck like that. Please don't come back and say you are not a trophy hunter if your previous hunting has been in Mexico because we all know why hunters go down there and it ain't to shoot a doe!

Of course I was hunting big deer.


Like I stated earlier, he had won the battle and deserved to walk.


What is wrong with that? I made the choice not to shoot.

I'll probably get flamed all to hell and possibly even banned but I have to say I have never seen more hypoctitical bullshit in some time. I mean even if it's legal it's not ethical. Horseshit! The folllowing quote pretty much proves my point.

quote:

So much is made about inches of antlers. We see it on the hunting shows, read about it and probably actually heard it in person about that magic 170 inch mark and the lengths some will go to, to get that 170 inch mark, that is where the high fence controversy comes into play. Ethical???? I am content with the trophy’s I have and would not trade the hunt and memories for anything.

There's the whole problem in a nutshell. It's all about getting that head in the book. I've talked to some of the anti-hunting people, at least some that were rational. Quite few were adamant againts hunting because they were afte the head and believed hunters leave the meat to rot.
I know they'll say you can buy meat at the super market but when I show them that venison is healthie than that hormone and antibotic laced crap they sell in the store, at least some to come around a bit.
I only have one head on my wall. It's an antelope that took me 33 years to get. Yes, 33 years because I just could not draw a tag in my home state. Doesn't come all that close to being a book head, but is a nice representative specimen.
I apologize if I have offended anyone. I'm a 74 year old curmudgeon who says bullshit when he sees it. We all hunt in what we hope is a legal and ethical manner We may not approve of one's method of hunting as it does not agree with ours. So what! Maybe it is damn well time we STFU, bit our tongues and join together in the fight to save out sport. It's damn well time the trophy hunter quits looking down on the meat hunter. We all hunt one way or another. That old saying does hold true you know? "United we stand, divided we fall." If we don't stop the squabbling about ethics and fair chase and all the other holier than thou crap, we will soon no longer be able to hunt anything, anywhere.
Paul B.