I have never left any good meat in the field to rot, nor would I. When I was hunting in Mexico, I was hunting big deer, won’t deny that. I paid to hunt there and in the 17 years I hunted down there I only took nine deer. Not because I did not see big deer it is because I trying to get one a little better than the previous deer. I don’t have to shoot a deer just because I lease a ranch and am deer hunting.

These guys that made the remark about me letting an old deer walk, I just can’t figure out where they are coming from. They may be the kind that pay so they are going to kill something.

Swifter I am not trying to start a pissing contest with you. This discussion started out about anti hunters and the effect they are having and the inability for hunters to form a united group to present our side of the story.

It evolved into a discussion about ethics versus legalities in the hunting field. You made a post stating that you had shot two deer that were hung up in a fence. In Texas at least that is illegal, but I do not have a problem with it because it was an ethical act, I have done it myself.

I really did not notice that anyone else had a problem with that. To me however, others can think how they wish, any animal, visibly suffering/in pain or in overall poor physical condition should be afforded the quock death of a bullet, not ripped to pieces by coyotes or here in Texas, pigs, because they might find it before a Mt. Lion would.

A double question, were you finished hunting when you let that buck walk, or did you go find a buck that was in better shaper and shoot it?

From my experience and all the research I have looked at over the years, normally under natural, free range, non-supplemental feeding situations after white tail bucks reach a certain age class 5.5 to 6.5, depending on the genetics/herd density/vegetation make up of the habitat, begin losing mass in their racks as they get older.

This type discussion is why I view ethics as Quick Sand, because they are in most circumstances, unique to the individual. You made what you thought was an ethical decision on 3 situations you were involved in. While shooting the deer hung in the fence was an ethical decision albeit an illegal one, if you were in Texas, in my estimation you did the correct thing.

In my estimation, using my ethics, not shooting the older sick deer that was no longer an asset to the gene pool, was unethical and was not in my opinion a good conservation practice. That is especially so if you continued hunting and killed a youger or healthier animal.

quote:

I'll probably get flamed all to hell and possibly even banned but I have to say I have never seen more hypoctitical bullshit in some time. I mean even if it's legal it's not ethical. Horseshit! The folllowing quote pretty much proves my point.

No flaming from this corner, I agree with you. I remember a few years back on another site, over a two season stretch, there were people, and these were gun hunters, not archers, that started a couple of discussions concerning the really great deer they shot, right at last light and were unable to track it and their biggest concern was not over a wounded deer, or over losing all that meat to the coyotes or hogs, their biggest concern was being able to salvage the rack and that was all they were concerned with.

As I have stated many times and many places our real problems began when a few people and and a few organizations decided to make deer hunting, and that includes ANYTHING with antlers/horns, a competetive sport.

It does my heart good to see that some folks remember the real value of hunting.

CHC,
It was the last day of the season in 2002 and I was on my way back to the camp house to pack up and get to the bridge, get my gun checked out of country and head home. I had hunted that deer all season. I had passed up a 160 class ten and a big eight with a drop. I had seen him just before I came home for Christmas and he was running with a doe. Saw him at about a half mile so I could not tell how good a shape he was in, BUT, since he was with a doe, well you know.

The last morning I saw him, which I originally wrote about, he was at 492 yds.

What would you have done?

If I were able to discern that he was in as bad a shape as you describe, I would have worked at trying to close the distance if by only 100/150 yards or so and I would have tried my best to put him down. Worst case for me scenario, I would have taken a good rest and hoped like hell I knew where my bullets would be hitting at that range.

As I said, you made a choice. A choice you felt was completely ethical = Quick Sand, because everyone's concept of ethical-unethical is different.

Some folks simply do not agree with your choice. That does not make you a bad person or an unethical hunter, nor does it make me some form of ethical hunting deity. It just means we view the situation differently and to me, that is merely part and parcel of being a Free Thinking human being.

swifter 220---I'd like to also answer from my perspective now after reading your last post. I disagreed with your earlier statement when you said you felt the deer won and let him go, but you didn't mention specifics, which you have now. If it was 500 yards away and you were on the ground walking in to camp, I would say you made the same decision I would have made even if you had more time to hunt and maybe for a different reason. That is a long poke I would never take at a deer and probably not even at a bigger elk UNLESS I was following up on a wounded animal and it gave me no other choice. I know CHC or somebody else made a statement on their thoughts about shooting at animals at long distance and that to me meets my "unethical" thoughts as well. Oh geez, here we go again, LOL! These guys going on Youtube with videos shooting at animals up to and over 1000 yards IMHO is not fair to the animal, is flat out just shooting and not hunting, and should be kept to paper and steel targets. Shooting at living, breathing animals with a huge chance that they will move as the trigger is squeezed and may be half an animal length or more off the crosshairs before the bullet gets there is BS IMHO. If a person wants to stoke his ego with those kind of long range shots, then keep it on a range and in competition where if there is a miss the target isn't going to suffer.


And to CHC, I couldn't agree more with this statemwnt of yours: "As I have stated many times and many places our real problems began when a few people and and a few organizations decided to make deer hunting, and that includes ANYTHING with antlers/horns, a competetive sport.

It does my heart good to see that some folks remember the real value of hunting."

I did not go into a lot of detail because of being too long winded and I felt like details were not necessary.

I could have tried the shot, of which I felt comfortable with, knowing my rifle and my ability.

I have not had a second thought about not shooting the deer as, like I said earlier, he was walking when I last saw him. Maybe he was killed by a cat, coyotes or just laid down and died or maybe he made it through until the rains regenerated springs growth, I will never know but at least I gave him the option to live out his life of which I have no regret and a deer like that deserved.

CHC, ever wonder how many grown healthy deer are killed by big Cats? I think that those big males have a thing about killing healthy deer. In one season, we found three cat killed deer. One was a twelve that no one had ever seen. The twelve scored 178 inches. Another deer found that year was a ten I had been hunting but he disappeared after Christmas. Never saw him after, he scored 168 and the last one was a young ten about 3 ½ that was a whopping 151. They were all killed by cats. But that is a whole other topic.

When I was about 14 I found a bobcat and mule deer fight where the cat one in Wyoming. The buck was a good 4x4 mule and probably weighed 280 pounds on the hoof.

We have also come across 5 point bull elk that were killed by mountain lions. If they are killing 3 year old five points, they are killing 12 year old monarchs.

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CHC, ever wonder how many grown healthy deer are killed by big Cats? I think that those big males have a thing about killing healthy deer. In one season, we found three cat killed deer. One was a twelve that no one had ever seen. The twelve scored 178 inches. Another deer found that year was a ten I had been hunting but he disappeared after Christmas. Never saw him after, he scored 168 and the last one was a young ten about 3 ½ that was a whopping 151. They were all killed by cats. But that is a whole other topic.

The numbers I have heard/read about run about a deer a week. As far as what animal a Mt.Lion will kill, they are non-selective. Humans are the only selective prerdators on the planet and we want to equate/antropromorphise that on to on to the other predatory species. Just look at your posts, including the one above. You seem to be overly concerned about what an animal scores. That is your right and perogative. But it does not give you Carte'Blanch to make, or even try make poiCHC, ever wonder how many grown healthy deer are killed by big Cats? I think that those big males have a thing about killing healthy deer. In one season, we found three cat killed deer. One was a twelve that no one had ever seen. The twelve scored 178 inches. Another deer found that year was a ten I had been hunting but he disappeared after Christmas. Never saw him after, he scored 168 and the last one was a young ten about 3 ½ that was a whopping 151. They were all killed by cats. But that is a whole other topic.

With the good deer being killed at the ranch, kind of makes one concerned about the Mt. Lion population we had at that time. Just saying that they were killing good deer. Nothing more.

quote:

With the good deer being killed at the ranch, kind of makes one concerned about the Mt. Lion population we had at that time. Just saying that they were killing good deer. Nothing more.

Yes, the Lion population may be high or too high for the area. However, no Mountain or any other kind of lion that I know of conduct life, according to the desires of the hunter.

Some lions are trophy hunters and some are just meat hunters. Everyone knows that.....

Yes, and so are coyotes.....

What really slays me is all these antis when they say wolves only kill the old, sick, and weak. I guess they haven't seen any pictures or video of a pack attacking and killing big bull elk and moose that are in their prime!

quote:

Originally posted by swifter 220:
With the good deer being killed at the ranch, kind of makes one concerned about the Mt. Lion population we had at that time. Just saying that they were killing good deer. Nothing more.

Swifter:

You did the right thing as you saw it at the time and that is the best that any of us can do.
The "well, I wouldn't have done it that way" types are full of horseshit. They weren't there, aren't you, and may well have a different view of a situation than you would. That's certainly their perogative, but they WEREN'T THERE.

The very idea that that deer "should have" been shot instead of letting nature take its course is human conceit. Did anyone ask the deer? Who makes the "should have" call? 400 or 500 yard, or even a 50 yd, deer in poor shape and "it should have been shot". Bah.

Some of these critics should follow Will Roger's advice, "Never miss a good chance to shut up."

quote:

"Never miss a good chance to shut up."

Why don't you start and set an example for the rest of us to follow.

The whole discussion was about the differences in Individual ethics. I am quite sure that if Swifter had said that he did shoot the deer and put it out of its misery, someone would have jumped in saying it was unethical.

You, me, Swifter ALL hunters are the losers when ethics are brought into the conversation simply because they are individual concepts/beliefs and are not shared by all hunters, nationwide or worldwide.

quote:

What really slays me is all these antis when they say wolves only kill the old, sick, and weak. I guess they haven't seen any pictures or video of a pack attacking and killing big bull elk and moose that are in their prime!

It would not matter if they have. The Anti's do not care about what happens in nature, in fact they do not care if all wild animals become extinct.

Their one main concern is stopping humans from killing animals. They want to control other people and if they can get hunting stopped they will feel like they have gained control over a segment of the population.

If they achieve their goal of stopping hunting, then they will move on to fishing/farming & ranching and pet ownership.

But this discussion turned into one of Ethics and as can be quite clearly seen, from just the few people that have responded none of us share the exact same ethical concept or beliefs, and that is why the Anti's will win in the end.

CHC, I think you give the anti's way to much credit as - except for their few waco fundamentalists - they are no more in agreement than we are.
Plus we have fact and the truth on our side.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
CHC, I think you give the anti's way to much credit as - except for their few waco fundamentalists - they are no more in agreement than we are.
Plus we have fact and the truth on our side.

I could not agree more!

In case either of you have not noticed, not a whole lot of people in our country, Care about the truth anymore.

Also, we do not have the truth on our side! We claim to be conservationists, yet for most people anymore, their hunting effotrts are not geared toward the overall health of the species being hunted, but toward shooting only the biggest and best specimen of whatever species they are hunting.

That is why such things as high fence hunting and deer breeding have proliferated. Look at how many hunters, the instant they see a buck or bull begin figuring the B&C Score.

None of us hunt because we have to, we hunt because we want to, because we like it, because it is part of what makes us, us.

458, Drummond. when you are guiding a client do you just put them on the first representative animal you find, or do you work to put them on the biggest and best specimen??? Hell, anyone that works as a guide can answer that if they choose to. I doubt very many will, but as someone that has been on both sides of the fence, as a client and as a guide, I can answer that. NO professional guide wants any of their clients to shoot anything less than a real trophy.

Why is that? Because if you are trying to make a living as a guide, you are not going to do very well if the only thing you can show potential clients, is hunters with average animals. Our society wants to see "Real" trophies.

The reason I started my guide service was to put some fun back into hunting. Javelina's are a once in a lifetime deal for most folks. I mean what is the difference between an average javelina and a "Real Trophy Stink Hog"???

No One Knows And No One Cares. People come out and have fun, shoot a javelina, maybe a few jackrabbits share some around the cooking fire, but there will never be very many repeat customers, and I know that the ones that do come back are not looking to kill something bigger than the one on the wall. They come back because they had fun and there was no pressure from worrying about B&C scores.

No, the truth is not on our side and never will be as long as hunters are more worried about what an animal scores according to a fabricated system named after two men that depended on hunting to stay alive. Those men did not hunt trophies and most of their methods for obtaining the game they needed to stay alive would definitely be considered as unethical by todays standards.

On the whole, todays hunters, are highly selective game harvester's. Few if any of us actually depend on the meat from the game we kill. 458, when was the last time a hunter wanted you to bone out on of those grizzlies so they could take the meat home? Drummond, how many of the folks you have guided to a great Coues or Mulie down in Mexico have loaded up the meat and headed for the border?

I can guarantee you that those are the questions the anti's ask, and all a person has to do is look at the game management practices in practically every state, and they are designed to produce high quality animals for the folks willing to pay the $$$$$$ to hunt them.

If your going to talk about truth or reality, start by admitting that all of us that hunt, do so because we like it and it is part of what makes US, US. We do not have to hunt, we want to hunt!

The only thing 90% plus of us have in common is that we are hunters. The problem is, that is not good enough anymore. Many of us have become so damn selective, that if everyone else does not share that attitude, they are not worthy of being called a hunter.

No, we do not have the truth on our side, simply because "Trophy Only" hunting can not be defended or supported in a proper management plan.

While I am on a roll and pissing off lots of folks, stop and compare hunting in Europe to hunting in America. Here we have the Freedom to choose what animal we want to try and kill. Because real trophy animals generate $$$$$ and prestige, and because on the whole so many hunters have become so competetive, that actual consevation based hunting has gone out the window.

In parts of Europe, the hunter is allotted an animal. There is no choice. It might be a female, a younger animal, an older animal, an animal with a specific number of points, and the list goes on. Fom what I have seen from reports, those folks are just as happy if it is a big stag or a young animal. They have been managing their wildlife for centuries and they realize that hunting is a priveledge.

We in America on the other hand, have only been actively managing our wildlife for a little over 100 years. Yes, we had Game and fish laws for longer than that, but they were not actively enforced. One of the few real truths about hunting and game management in America is that with a few exceptions all of our major game animal species has propered to the point of over abundance all across the country. Most notable are Elk and White-Tail Deer.

All it takes is someone that has studied and researched game management and the role regulated sport hunting plays in it, to blow holes in the "Truths" we try to hold dear. As long as hunters were going along with the management guidelines things were fine.

When it became a competetive sport with money and prestidge involved, many hunters and game departments shifted from managing the whole herd or group, to concentrating on just one segment, trophy animals.

That has resulted in our white tail deer and our elk being mismanaged in too many places because in a natural/free ranging population only so many true trophy animals can be produced.

So, when you go to talking about the truth about hunting, just remember that like any other activity that humans are involved in, there is a dark side to hunting and people placing so much importance and $$$$$$$ on "Trophy" animals has only made that dark side stronger and more active.

Think what you wish about me and my opinions. I will continue to hunt the way I choose to and for the animals I choose to hunt for and anything I kill is a trophy to me. My time on earth is coming to an end and I will probably/hopefully not live to see the death of hunting, but some of you will and the sad part is those coming along behind us will only be able to look back and ask why those of us alive today did not do more to save the sport.

CHC:

You continue to miss your chances....

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:



.....When it became a competetive sport with money and prestidge involved, many hunters and game departments shifted from managing the whole herd or group, to concentrating on just one segment, trophy animals.....



.....So, when you go to talking about the truth about hunting, just remember that like any other activity that humans are involved in, there is a dark side to hunting and people placing so much importance and $$$$$$$ on "Trophy" animals has only made that dark side stronger and more active.....

False

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:



.....When it became a competetive sport with money and prestidge involved, many hunters and game departments shifted from managing the whole herd or group, to concentrating on just one segment, trophy animals.....



.....So, when you go to talking about the truth about hunting, just remember that like any other activity that humans are involved in, there is a dark side to hunting and people placing so much importance and $$$$$$$ on "Trophy" animals has only made that dark side stronger and more active.....

False

No, there is a grain of truth to this in my opinion.

Not long ago there was a thread here about game departments & sheep hunting & auction tags.

While I generally believe (and really don't wish to go back to the sheep thread) that western states game departments do utilize the big $$ generated in auctions to support many kinds of wildlife & general habitat, there can be no denying that we wouldn't have these auctions if it weren't for the hyper-competitive society in which we live, where some people, if they can "buy" a tag (read: trophy), will buy a tag.

We have, my friends, indeed gone over to the dark side!

May the force be with you.

friar

quote:

Originally posted by friarmeier:

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:



.....When it became a competetive sport with money and prestidge involved, many hunters and game departments shifted from managing the whole herd or group, to concentrating on just one segment, trophy animals.....



.....So, when you go to talking about the truth about hunting, just remember that like any other activity that humans are involved in, there is a dark side to hunting and people placing so much importance and $$$$$$$ on "Trophy" animals has only made that dark side stronger and more active.....

False

No, there is a grain of truth to this in my opinion.

Not long ago there was a thread here about game departments & sheep hunting & auction tags.

While I generally believe (and really don't wish to go back to the sheep thread) that western states game departments do utilize the big $$ generated in auctions to support many kinds of wildlife & general habitat, there can be no denying that we wouldn't have these auctions if it weren't for the hyper-competitive society in which we live, where some people, if they can "buy" a tag (read: trophy), will buy a tag.

We have, my friends, indeed gone over to the dark side!

May the force be with you.

friar

While there are a limited number of auction and raffle tags that are used to generate income for the particular species that the tags are issued for to say that the game departments manage strictly for trophy quality is absolutely false.

CHC. I agree with youalmost 100 percent if not all the way. At one time, the B&C club was formed to glorify a particular specimen of big game becasue of it way better than average condition and size. Today, it is a club for mainly rich people on ego trips. "Got my deer in the book this year." I have an acquaintance who is a Coues Deer freak and has several heads the could rate high in the B&C book. He has no desire to put tem in the book. He told me that one time, some apparenly well off dude offered him $10,000 for his unregistered best head. The price was so Mr. Egotrip could register it and claim he shot it. It's this kind of crap that gives the rest of us hunters such a bad name.
Pardom me for getting a tad long winded but this is a story that happened to me in a way. At least it affected me on a planned hunt.
It was 1970 and I was recently hired on with what was then called the Weather Bureau. First position was in Winnemucca Nevada. We had a special phone system so we could get the hourly weather observations from Battle Mountain Nevada about 52 miles away. When things were slow, we'd sometimes get together and have some nice bull sessions between observations. Naturally, it turned to hunting and guns real fast. Now at the time I'd never hunted Mule Deer, only those well hidden California Blacktails. They offered to more or less guide me and show me the way it was done. At the time tags were still OTC so that took care of that problem. About two weeks prior to opening day they backed out of the hunt. They were exremely angry as the man's two sons went out to do some scouting. The came across two very large bodied Mule Deer carcasses where the heads and capes had been removed and the mat left to rot. They never did find out who did it but it also kept me from getting "tutored" in the finer points of hunting Mule Deer. In the almost 11 years I lived there, I found a few headless carcasses myself and yes, I was and still am mad.
Someties, when like now and I'm hinking about it, maybe they should completely erase all thpose records in the B&C club. Eliminate the source that feeds the ego trip. Probably might do the animals some good if that were to happen.
I dunno? It's just what I'm thinking right now.
Paul B.

quote:

While there are a limited number of auction and raffle tags that are used to generate income for the particular species that the tags are issued for to say that the game departments manage strictly for trophy quality is absolutely false.

Drummond, you have your opinion and other people have theirs. Same with ethics. When managing an area that is known for producing above average trophies requires a Resident of the state to have 10 or more preference points to get drawn and a Non-Resident twice that number, that area is being managed for trophies only.

Gato, your letting you HC alterego show!

quote:

Gato, your letting you HC alterego show!

CHC:

You continue to be a joke.

But just for the record for you and any other fellow idiots who might think I post on AR under two handles......I don't, never have and never will. I am perfectly willing to call you a frigging moron under this one. I would say I would bet you more than you could stand to lose and prove it, but since you rarely have 2 nickels to rub together beyond your booze purchases, why bother? Pissant drunk.

quote:

I would say I would bet you more than you could stand to lose and prove it, but since you rarely have 2 nickels to rub together beyond your booze purchases, why bother?

Yes Sir right out of HC's mouth., your rhetoric is what gives you away.

Oh, and by the way, your qulote from Will Roger's, he made a living as a humorist and philosopher, that means he talked a lot.

Since you can't seem to stick to the subject of ethics or the affect the anti-hunting movement is having, I have nothing further to say to you.

quote:

Since you can't seem to stick to the subject of ethics or the affect the anti-hunting movement is having, I have nothing further to say to you.

I had better go out and buy a few lottery tickets, this is my lucky day. Now if you'd only spread the practice to others who find your posts as obnoxious as you are personally.

CHC, you like to paint everyone with the same brush. But I have been in the guiding business long enough to have long ago quit hunting for my ego - plus I have a degree in Wildlife management and have a fairly good grasp of how biology works.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
When managing an area that is known for producing above average trophies requires a Resident of the state to have 10 or more preference points to get drawn and a Non-Resident twice that number, that area is being managed for trophies only.

Erroneous

Biologists here in Colorado manage big game populations to achieve population and sex ratio objectives for overall herd health and if there are a limited number of tags available it's not because they are trying to grow trophy deer, it's because the circumstances of the particular GMU dictate fewer tags which in turn makes it desirable to "trophy hunters" and requires more points to draw.

It's laughable to say that the DOW here in CO manages for trophy quality when you see how they have created more seasons and increased the number of tags in so many units.

We will have to agree to disagree, simply because I view the system Colorado/Texas and many other states use to cater to trophy hunters. You don't view it that way. that is your perogative.

Last time I noticed, Colorado was at or above their goals as far as elk number were concerned. All or practically all of the western states limit the percentage of permits that can be issued to Non-residents, and for the more premier units, they even limit the number of tags available for residents.

I view that as managing for trophies, just a I view the Antler Restrictions in Texas as managing for trophies, just as I view the high fence hunting operations across the country as Privatised-Commercial outlets for trophies.

I do not view any of it as ethical or unethical, it is just the way it is. Just like the way I view the use of the words hunter/hunting. I may not want to participate in the type of activity another person enjoys, but, if they want to refer to themselves as a hunter or the activity as hunting, that is their perogative.

Which brings me back to the fact that in my opinion if the activity a person is doing is legal under the laws of the state they are doing it in, and they can live with what they are doing, I am not slamming the door in their face by claiming they are unethical, that the activity should be outlawed and they are not real hunters and what they are doing is not hunting.

This business of alienating each other because we do not all agree on what is or is not hunting, who is or is not a hunter, and what role hunters play in modern game management only keeps those that enjoy hunting fragmented and helps the cause of those that want to take hunting away from us.

You don't see things that way, that is your perogative.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Last time I noticed, Colorado was at or above their goals as far as elk number were concerned. All or practically all of the western states limit the percentage of permits that can be issued to Non-residents, and for the more premier units, they even limit the number of tags available for residents.

This is the absolute WORST example you could give. You want to hunt elk in Colorado then come and hunt one of the many units where you can buy a tag OVER THE COUNTER.

Crazy, I am not trying to be rude but at least try to educate yourself on these subjects before posting nonsense. Colorado issues almost 140,000 limited elk licenses as well as an unlimited number of OTC bull elk licenses in the archery and 2nd and 3rd rifle seasons. There is so much opportunity here in CO its not even funny

As for mule deer, tag numbers were reduced quite a bit but it has to do with severe winters and the associated winter kill, habitat loss and development due to housing and oil fields. The oil fields also have a lot to do with migration corridor disruption which has a major impact on our deer here in CO. The reduction in tags has nothing to do with the state of CO wanting to just "grow trophy bucks". There are so many variables its not even funny and you just want to chalk it up to "trophy hunting".

Drummond I just do not view things the way you do, and you will never see things the way I do. that is just part of life as an American Citizen, the ability and right to form an Independent opinion based upon the individuals interpretation of the available evidence. Last time I hunted elk in Colorado was 2005. I still have a preference point for Late Season Cow Elk left over from 2009. The next year, cow tags went to $301.00 for Non-Residents, I got priced out of the elk hunting game.

It happened, there is nothing I can do about it. It was the breaks of the game, no harm, no foul, ssome folks are able to continue playing while others have to move along to something else.

I can see the game departments needing to raise license fees due to reduced revenue due to a decline in hunter numbers, but from my research, the decline in hunter numbers did not take place until AFTER, the increase in license prices and the decrease in the number of licenses available for Non-Residents.

Colorado was not the only state to take this approach. It was their choice, and that choice was supported by the residents of those states. I can't say that I really blame the resident's of the various states for wanting things to change, because from I saw, they were being pushed aside in preference to the Non-Residents, simply because the Non-Reidents brought a lot of $$$$$$ into the states economy.

Just because I do not agree with you or anyone else Drummond does not mean I am the enemy, it just means I view things differently, and that is everyone's right. There is no Eleventh Commandment and even if there was, it would not state that everyone must agree on all subjects.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Drummond I just do not view things the way you do, and you will never see things the way I do. that is just part of life as an American Citizen, the ability and right to form an Independent opinion based upon the individuals interpretation of the available evidence. Last time I hunted elk in Colorado was 2005. I still have a preference point for Late Season Cow Elk left over from 2009. The next year, cow tags went to $301.00 for Non-Residents, I got priced out of the elk hunting game.

It happened, there is nothing I can do about it. It was the breaks of the game, no harm, no foul, ssome folks are able to continue playing while others have to move along to something else.

I can see the game departments needing to raise license fees due to reduced revenue due to a decline in hunter numbers, but from my research, the decline in hunter numbers did not take place until AFTER, the increase in license prices and the decrease in the number of licenses available for Non-Residents.

Colorado was not the only state to take this approach. It was their choice, and that choice was supported by the residents of those states. I can't say that I really blame the resident's of the various states for wanting things to change, because from I saw, they were being pushed aside in preference to the Non-Residents, simply because the Non-Reidents brought a lot of $$$$$$ into the states economy.

Just because I do not agree with you or anyone else Drummond does not mean I am the enemy, it just means I view things differently, and that is everyone's right. There is no Eleventh Commandment and even if there was, it would not state that everyone must agree on all subjects.

What would you attribute the price hike in tag fee's Crazy? Do you put this on "ethics" or "trophy hunting"?

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What would you attribute the price hike in tag fee's Crazy? Do you put this on "ethics" or "trophy hunting"?

I would attribute it more to simple economics mainly, but that was not one of the choices you gave me. Trophy hunting or the lack there of and ethics and the lack there of both played a role. This is just my opinion and I am definitely no da,mn kind of an expert on anything.

My opinions on this are based on the period of time I was hunting elk in Colorado 1992 thru 2005, during that 13 year period I made 9 hunts, all with a guide. My opinions are based on what I actually witnessed during the Fall hunts. After I killed my one and only bull elk in 97', I started doing Late Season cow hunts. Before 97', in 93', 94', and 95' I was able to get an OTC bull tag and draw a Private Land cow tag. Total for the 9 hunts I did was 6 cows, 1 bull, 3 mulies and a speed goat.

Getting back to the topic. I did spend enough time up there, after the first hunt, to witness the rodeo 1st. and 2nd. elk seasons turned into with all the out of staters coming in and doing D-I-Y hunts. I also got to see and hear about the frustration and anger the locals felt pover having so many out of staters coming in and taking over the Public hunting areas.

I do not fault the resident hunters, because they were getting squeezed out because of all the non-residents and setting on the side looking at things objectively, it did seem that CDOW was catering to the non-residents due to the amount of money they were bringing in to the state and local economies.

Also, I got to see first hand, just exactly how unethical and how carelessly a lot of those non-residents were. Colorado's resident hunters got fed up with it and held CDOW to the fire so to speak and got things changed to get a little better handle on the situation and give something back to the resident's of the state, less crowding on the Public Lands, Limited numbers of Non-Resident permits in the draw units, Not allowing Non-Residents to apply for the Ranching For Wildlife permits, curbing the unethical behaviors that took place with so many out-of-staters packed on to the more accessable Public Areas.

Drummond, regardless of how it may have came across, my comments about Colorado and the other Western states concerning how things have changed, were not meant as an indictment. I do not neccessarily agree with some of the changes they made, but I do agree that they had to do something. To me, many states, Colorado and Texas included appear to have made or be making the effort to appeal more to "Trophy" hunters, than hunters in general.

Fact remains, that none of the above changes the concepts that the Hunting Public in America is under attack by the combined anti-hunting forces, who have gained a lot of ground in getting hunting shut down in California, and that because none of us, the Hunting Public, seem willing to set aside even the pettiest of differences to form any sort of a united front to present our side of the story to the voting public.

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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

Fact remains, that none of the above changes the concepts that the Hunting Public in America is under attack by the combined anti-hunting forces, who have gained a lot of ground in getting hunting shut down in California,

WTF are you talking about? What hunting is shut down in California? Please tell me??? A few weeks ago I applied for this years hunts in California. Which included –

2 Deer Tags
1 Bear Tag
Pig Tag
Bobcat Tags
- and applied for the drawings for -
Antelope
Tule Bull
BigHorn Sheep

So please tell me how is hunting shut down in California?

And I’m a lot younger than you are and I have only hunted CO a few times, but from what you have written about CO, I think its safe to say you have no idea what you are talking about.

A most curious thread. Couple of points: the "antis" are not preventing any hunters from organizing or presenting a unified front. We hunters do not have to support publicly any hunting practises that we find offensive, even if legal.

In my opinion, based upon actual attempts, there is little point in discussing hunting (or guns) with true antis. That's like talking to a birther.

Most people who don't hunt or own guns do not care one way or the other. If they do have a leaning it's toward Disney but in reality it's not a steep lean.

The non-hunters who don't feel strongly one way or the other are the ones we need to court and convince. They don't even have to vote for us; they just needn't vote against us. That means that we hunters shouldn't be offensive. Youtube is filled with slobhunter videos. The hunting shows on TV are often by and for slob hunters.

We don't need a monolithic hunting organization (the difference between grouse hunting over dogs and high-fence trophy hunting is so extreme that they don't even fall under the same rubric) but we do need to express our views in a civil manner.

Hunting and guns are linked and that creates a bigger problem because I think there are more slob gun owners than hunters. That's just an observation and please don't flame me with 2A and NRA slogans or draw any other conclusions. It's just that it doesn't take many slob gun owners to turn completely neutral people into antis.

Most of my friends neither hunt nor own guns and most simply don't care about either. They do not want to stop others from hunting or owning gun but when they can't avoid a discussion about either they all seem to focus on the slobs. If voters feel they have nothing whatsoever in common with the participants of any activity they won't support that activity.

I wish I had some answers but slobs will probably always be with us - no activity is free of them.

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WTF are you talking about? What hunting is shut down in California?

Was it all a big mistake??????? Was the business about hunting bobcats and bear with hounds being shut down a lie???????? Was that all a big hoax????

And I do know what I am talking about as far as what I experienced in Colorado. just because you have not experienced the same things does not mean I didn't experience them.

I find it interesting as to how many California hunters have came on this site complaining about losing hunting rights and then you come up and say nothing is wrong, now which is it, are they all lying or exaggerating the situation?