This might stir the poop a little but here goes.

I was reading an article on long range hunting awhile ago written by Daniel Lijia. It was an excellent article on long range hunting and shooting. They were talking about shooting big game animals such as deer and elk at 1000 plus yards. I know these guys are outstanding shots, better than I will ever be. But is it ethical? I myself have made shots right out to 600 yards. But lets assume everything is perfect at 1200 yards no wind 100% accuracy on range estimation, rest and rifle perfect. That animal can easily move just because it wants to. Then you have to travel 3/4 of a mile just to start looking for it. Isn't shooting at these distances kinda like shooting a 130 - 150 yds with a bow? Should we be taking shots like these or should they be best left for 3D targets? Or are we using our wildlife for targets? I am parinoid about our younger generation and our hunting privleges. I want my kids to be able to hunt and I just wonder if articles like this or people who witness such shooting displays would be put off hunting.

I think if you do a search you well find out a lot of threads on this.

Also if you go to longrangehunting.com you well find lots of info on hunting at long range.

Everyone has their own "ethics" regarding how they hunt. For me, no matter how good a shot you are, you can't control the animal @ 1000yds. Even if everything else is perfect, if the animal steps or even turns just a bit, it's a wound & not a kill. But to each his own, just not me.

I do not consider taking a big game animal at 1000 yards to be "hunting", to me that is demonstrating the skill set of an accomplished "shooter". A demonstration which I believe should be reserved for paper or silhouettes.

I fully support individual freedoms and do not think such activities should be illegal or restricted in any fashion --to each their own-- I just have little respect for someone who has to prove their shooting skills on a live animal at a higher risk of wounding and loss than at lower ranges. For me personally I think 500-550 is my own personal extreme. Anything further and I beieve I owe it to the animal to rely on my "hunting" skills by either stalking closer, waiting patiently for the animal to perhaps come closer or by passing on the shot. To me, killing a big game animal at 1000 yards is not HUNTING it is SHOOTING, when I hear of folks doing so I may think to myself, "Wow, 1) they are a heck of a shot (or very lucky), 2) they have little respect for wildlife and 3) I wish they would quit referring to their accomplishment as HUNTING.....it aint."

For me, that only holds true with big game animals (which I hold in higher esteem than say varmints etc.), as far as predators, varmints are concerned--I say go for it!

IV

I feel that shooting game at those distances mentioned is not hunting. It's just shooting. And something which could be done on a range, without the risk of wounding an animal.
I have taken shots on game at what I consider to be extreme ranges (300 - 400m), But as a last resort, on open plain country, with no chance to get closer.
There is just too much outside the shooters control (the animal, for one!) to risk a really long shot.
Having seen some really long range shooting done in the Army, with time of flights of 3 seconds or more, at bad guys, there are just too many variables. None of us cared much about wounding a bad guy, but a game animal is a totally different question.
Shooting at game at long range is not hunting, However each of us is bound by his or her own set of ethical standards. If you feel the need to shoot critters at long range, so be it. Just don't call it hunting.
I think the true measure of an ethical hunter, is in how close you can get, rather than how far you can shoot.
Just my $.02 worth.

Cheers, Dave.

[sarcasm on] Let's see, I don't consider it ethicle if the range is over 10 feet, umm no, it's unethicle unless your holding a stick with a sharp rock tied onto it, umm no your not a ethicle hunter unless your hunting with a sharp rock, held in your hand, and wearing a loin cloth.
So unless your doing it MY way, your all unethicle [/sarcasm off]
Think about it, every one defines "long range" differently, so who's right/wrong. If it's legal, and their not leaving wounded game behind (and the "up close" boys leave their share of wounded game behind too), than what's wrong with it for them. The long range guy's arn't trying to force you to do things their way, why do you feel the need to force them to do things your way?

quote:

Originally posted by Tailgunner:
The long range guy's arn't trying to force you to do things their way, why do you feel the need to force them to do things your way?

Actually, I am not trying to force ANYONE to do ANYTHING "my way". As as I stated they are free to do as they wish and I even support their legal right to do so. I think what I think about their choice.... would I do it?-- no. Do I think less of them for trying it?---YES, maybe re-read my post if this is confusing?

IV

quote:

Originally posted by Sambar 9.3:
I feel that shooting game at those distances mentioned is not hunting. It's just shooting.

Cheers, Dave.

IV
Mine is a general comment, for all to consider.
The "long range" argument has been going on ever since the first guy tied his sharp rock onto a long stick, and it realy intensified when someone started throwing that stick at game. We arn't going to settle it on this, or ony other board.

quote:

IV
Mine is a general comment, for all to consider.
The "long range" argument has been going on ever since the first guy tied his sharp rock onto a long stick, and it realy intensified when someone started throwing that stick at game. We arn't going to settle it on this, or ony other board.

We may not settle it but we certainly have the right to voice our opinion. I consider intentionally trying to shoot big game animals from as far away as possible a circus stunt akin to Mark Sullivan intentionally gut shooting Cape Buffalo to provoke a charge. I'm not suggesting outlawing it but I don't have to be impressed by the some hunters need to fuel their own ego at the expense of the game they hunt. And that is merely MY opinion.

Jeff

quote:

The "long range" argument has been going on ever since the first guy tied his sharp rock onto a long stick, and it realy intensified when someone started throwing that stick at game.

Well, no it hasn't gone on that long. All we cared about back then was whether or not we could eat. We didn't care about the stick.

It's just another change, nothing more.

I hunt with the 338-378 weatherby.I bought it to shoot further than my 338 winchester .it adds about 300 yards to the 338 winchesters range.its not for everyone.The brass is about $2 each and factory loads can be $80.I have a 6.5x20 power scope on my Weatherby Accumark.I practice alot out to 600 yards.I also wont take a shot over 450 yards without a range finder.The long range shooters use match bullets that are usually serria Match king bullets.I have shot the 300 gr match king out of my 338-378.It does have an awesome balistic cofficency of .84 I think.If it starts out at 3000 fps it is still going 2000 fps at 1000 yards and has about 2400 ft pounds of energy.I usually shoot either Nosler Partition 250 gr or serria 250 gr bts out of my gun.I have shot groups of less than a 1/2 "at 100yrds all day long with my gun.My cousin who is a bench rest shoot shot one .24 inch at one hundered tards.I have shot 1.25 inch groups at 300 yards.Its makes it alot easier for long range shots with such a gun and scope.they guys you are talking about doing the very long range shots usually shoot bull barreled bench rest guns.I like my 9.5 pound weatherby with the big scope.I dont carry a spotting scope just binos and the rifle.I would not shoot at deer at 1000 yards.They are too small of a target.I have shot deer at around 425 yards and caribou at 450 yards.I think if I was sure a moose was legal I would shoot one out to 800 yards.The problem is its hard to tell if a moose is 50" or 4 brow times is hard over 100 yards most of the time.The website is longrangehunting.com that I usually check out.I dont have enough confidence to shoot deer at 1000 yards or longerdue to the small target.I would shoot a legal elk at around 800 yards with my gun if I had too.It would be alot bigger target.I think the world record is some guy that shot a woodchuck at 2.25 miles with a 338-378 I believe.I think Elk have been taken over a mile.I have not even tried these 300 gr match kings on game .I might try them on caribou some day if I get a chance.I have practiced on long range rocks that I knew was a safe place to shoot way out.I am still a believer that if you dont have enough gun dont make the shot.I shot a big deer when i was about 14 with a 243 about 200 yards in the lungs and lost it.I later changed to the 338 win mag and killed every deer in its tracks from 3 yards to 425 yards.I dont believe in having to track game long ways.I lost deer to other hunters when I was younger tracking deer .I stopped that problem with the 338 win mag.My problem is now that I have gotten so use to hunting with my 338-378 weatherby that even my 338 win mag seems small.I still use the 338 win mag on deer but I usually always hunt moose and caribou with my 338-378.

tailgunner, he did ask for an opinion, don't take any of the comments personal,

Tailgunner- My apologies if I misinterpreted your post--fair enough---> and I absolutely agree that ethical issues such as this are rarely resolved on forums I believe ethics are ingrained long before we are able to type....

IV

Tailgunner, I'm not trying to force anyone to do anything. Personal ethics are exactly that, personal. If someone feels the need to shoot at animals at 1600m, then, if it's legal (and in a lot of places, it's not!) then go for it! Just don't call it hunting.
There are a lot of places in the world where you may have to be able to take a 400m shot or pass up your trophy altogether. It's up to the individual, at the time.
dgr416, the 338Win is a fine cartridge, and one that sees a lot of use here in OZ, on Scrub bull, Buff and Sambar deer. It carries energy out to distance very well, and it's recoil is still manageable for the occasional shooter. If I could have only one cartridge to handle all the big game shooting I might do, under all the circumstances I might face (except the big five), world wide, this would be the one. My old Ruger 77 would shoot 2" groups at 300m, more than enough accuracy for my needs. But 1.25" at 300yds! That's pretty damn good!

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegituim Carborundum

What really got me thinking about this topic was actually some bowhunter friends of mine. These guys are exceptional shots. I mean asprin tablets at 40 yards 3D targets at 90 to 120 yards. Yet when they go out hunting they seem to wound the crap out of things, one guy wounded 3 animals in one year. It is one thing to shoot a 3D target that cant move while you are rested at a range. Yet a totaly different thing at a live animal. I would never try to force them to take shorter shots but more commen scense shots would be in order. I think the same thing could be said for rifle hunters. Be it a 75 yard running shot through brush or 1000 yards. And I know some can do those shots like the 3D bowhunters, but it is a question if should we?

over 300 yards...stick to paper and gongs...animals are not for practice

stick to ground hogs cats and yotes

Simple solution to this problem. If you don't like to do it that way, nobody is forcing you to. Be careful when you make pronouncements as to what kind or type of hunting is "ethical." Yours could be the next to come under attack. We hunters do too much of this moralizing. We should be attacking the indefensible positions of the anti-hunting groups instead of each other.

patrkyhntr...

we do need to be unified in defense of hunting but if you do not have the skill necessary to hit an animal in the proper area at ANY distance...you need to be at the range and not HUNTING. hunting implies fair chase if you are tactical harvesting and can predict wind drift path of bullet accurately enough to be reliable, be my guest. but for me and most hunters if you have not HUNTED it is a hollow trophy and you might as well have bought it at wal mart. there is nothing wrong with framing your groups...that is a trophy...just make sure the frame is tastefull

we are all on the same team but a lot of wounded animals out there serves nobody. honor the animal and its abilities with fair chase and when you do have a trophy you will be damned proud and not have any regrets and sleep well with a smile

Damn, at my age I feel lucky to see a deer at that far off. With the equipment and the skill, its up to the shooter. One thing to consider, and this may not be an issue to anyone else, but what is the asfety of shooting a thousand yards as far as suppose that there was another hunter way out there. Can you be sure of your shot, and the back drop, the wind and all of the other factors tha twe have to consider to be safe?
It is one thing to shoot that far on a range where you know noone is down range, but in the wild??
It is up to you to do what you know is the right thing to do.
Judge Sharpe

Long range hunting has gotten more than a couple of people in trouble. The fact is that to be worthy of shooting animals at extended ranges takes more than equipment. I have the equipment to shoot animals at a very long range but don't feel comfortable with my skills to try this type of hunting, and it is hunting. In defense of the article about Dan, let me be the one that lets you know that Dan Lilja is the type of shooter that gets better the further the target gets from him. I have shot with Dan and can attest to his skills. Dan not only has the equipment but the knowledge and the skills to shoot anything he determines as a shootable target. Not to build Dan up but to try to convey that there are some shooters that can do it and some that can't. The real shooters can figure that out for themselves. Just cause you got the horsepower doesn't mean that you can handle it.

quote:

Originally posted by Tailgunner:
...Think about it, every one defines "long range" differently, so who's right/wrong. If it's legal, and their not leaving wounded game behind (and the "up close" boys leave their share of wounded game behind too), ...

Hey Tailgunner, Excellent post.

It seems as if these "Distance Threads" always get people pitted against each other. Darn shame.

The most interesting point that Tailgunner made was that people who shoot at Game up close, tend to have their share of wounded Game as well. Here is a link to an active Thread where the guy was shooting well within all the limits everyone has posted as "too far", and yet he did not recover the Deer.

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3411043/m/357102653

With the number of people in the woods in Washington state hunting elk in modern rifle season, if I was lucky enough and/or foolish enough to kill an elk at 1000 yards, by the time I slugged my sorry butt up and over the hill to where it finally fell, some other clown would've put his tag on it. 300 yds. is about my max limit if I can't get closer and the conditions are right.

boom stick, good point! I practice as much as I can, and I know I couldn't pull off a 1,000m shot on a critter, with 100% certainty. So, for me 400m is it, and that depends on the terrain I'm in.
Having said that, the longest shot I have taken this Deer season was 67 of my paces, call it maybe 50m or thereabouts. But I hunt in close country, guys here who shoot in the open plains areas routinely shoot at 250m and more.
As I said previously, if you are on an expensive guided hunt, after a once in a lifetime critter, you may have to take that 400m shot, or go home empty handed.
I'm lucky, I live in an area with abundant game, and I can afford to pass up risky shots. My freezer still stays full of venison. Lots of people cannot, on their once a year, guided hunt. The only answer, as I see it, is to practice and practice some more, until you can make those 400m shots.
Just my $.02 worth.

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

I can't believe how this always stirs things up. Look, if you can do it, go for it. I'm just proud there are still places in this country where someone can see 1000 yards out in the wilds. I just don't understand how someone has no problem shooting PDs at any range they can be seen (I know they are a pest) but are they less of an animal than an elk? Well, ok, yes they are less but only because we see them that way. What if PDs were a delicacy and elk were considered destrctive vermin? Would this descussion exist? This is sort of like the antis and vegetarians yelling about eating meat. I've heard apples and tomatoes scream when I picked them (I've spent years developing my acute hearing.....and I used to drink a lot). So are fruits and veggies less of a living thing than Ferdinand? Well, I think they are. I've never mowed over cattle at the end of the season. But that's my decision, not someone else's. Make your own choices. The longest open shot on my property is 250 yds. I have shot deer at that range several times, one shot kills and proud of it. I have missed at 80 yds and cried like a little girl. I don't shoot 1000 yd deer because 1) I have no place I could 2) I'm not capable of seeing that far 3) I don't have the equipment even if I had the skills. Let people hunt the way they want to and quit worrying about "ethical". If you use legal means then the only unethical thing you can do is to sit on the couch and watch football instead of being in the woods.

The problem with taking long shots as I have seen it is a bad shot just misses, but the really good shots wound animals or kill it everytime they shoot...

I will not take shots at a big game animal over 300 yards, but this was not always so, In my mispent youth I shot game at up to as much as 800 yards, but I also wounded a couple of animals doing that and came to the conclusion it just isn't worth having to deal with the guilt that goes with it.

I think we are mixing up hunters taking longish shots at game and the practice of long range hunting. The latter is intentionally taking as long a shot as possible. That is what I view as a circus stunt. The goal of hunting is to give yourself as easy a shot as possible. As I stated earlier I view it on the same level as Mark Sullivan intentionally gut shooting buffalo so he can provoke a charge. And yes, that is merely my opinion.

Jeff

Unfortunally most tags are for animals "brought to bag", not "blooded". In that strain, I do think I have a legitimate gripe with poor shooters of all kinds... In the U.S. wild game is the property of the public (in theory) until it is "brought to bag" and tagged as necessary. A wounded and lost animal allows the idiot to shoot another, essentially costing me a chance at that animal. Therefore he is wasting "my" game.

I know accidants and bad shots happen, but you'll never convince me that LR hunting does not cause it a lot more often that a comperable number of shots at close range. Therefore I feel that LR hunting costs me opportunities for game, and that is a legitimate beef against the practice!

Think about this: I know it is unenforcable, but how many LR hunters would be left if their tag was to be used on the first game animal hit? Lose it and lose your tag!

Hmmmmmmm.....

I can not condemn the practice completely, but I do think they (and everyone else) should lose a tag for a wounded and lost animal...especially in a highly desirable drawn tag type of hunt. Heck I have seen guys not go into the brush for hard hit deer out of laziness and feel the same towards them...I just hate the waste of good game animals!

If my calculations are correct, and they may not be, if a deer started walking (Just 3mph), walking speed, at the same time you pulled the trigger on a .308 (using 165gr BTSP) at a 1000yrds (about 2800fps) the deer would have walked about 8ft.. That doesn't take into account even a breath of wind.
Doesn't seem like you have much in the way of a chance, except maybe wounding the animal. You may think that's hunting, I don't. Just luck.

Don't get me wrong, I have a ball shooting PD's and Coyotes at 600yrds, but if I miss, so what. I shoot a 22-250AI, .243win and a .308win at varmints, they all have heavy barrels, high power scopes and aftermarket stocks (i.e. varmint rigs). Even at that I wouldn't take a thousand yard shot at a "game animal", but i'll defend your right too, if you can do it cleanly, every time?

quote:

The goal of hunting is to give yourself as easy a shot as possible.

I thought it was to harvest an animal to eat.

quote:

Don't get me wrong, I have a ball shooting PD's and Coyotes at 600yrds, but if I miss, so what.

My point exactly. We don't eat them but what if we did? Don't they deserve a "humane" kill?

quote:

if you can do it cleanly, every time?

With that remark you'd have to give a test or else take away someone's license if they miss....regardless of distance or only if it's over, what, 600 yards? 400 yards? 150 yards? Where do you draw the line.

quote:

That is what I view as a circus stunt.

Yeah but most folks like a circus. Hell, I married a bearded lady.

In response to the first post:

I'm not sure where or why the first shots such as Dan Lilja discusses as "long range" were taken but I suspect the goal was to harvest food and not to practice shooting skills on game animals. I also believe that many folks are not aware of the true nature of dedicated long range capable type hunters. I believe many folks confuse dedicated long range hunters with those shooting beyond their capabilities much as Ray Atkinson mentions as a portion of his post "... In my mispent youth I shot game at up to as much as 800 yards, but I also wounded a couple of animals doing that and came to the conclusion it just isn't worth having to deal with the guilt that goes with it." I believe many of us traveled the "mispent youth" trail and try things beyond our capabilities either in our "testing the limits of our capabilities" or just plain "knee jerk reaction". I'd hope that as we mature we use more knowledge and either cut the distance of the shot or acquire the necessary skill and knowledge set to do the job/task correctly. I believe Dan Lilja and the long range hunters I know have opted for the "increased skill and knowledge set" and the option to cut the distance as neceassary while others have opted for only the "cut the distance" set.

I'd imagine that if a person had no idea of the preparation, lingo and execution of a responsible long range shot it may seem like a series of "luck or stunt" events/actions and this could without some additional familiarization of exposure put a person off on the whole practice.

Be aware that there are several disciplines within the dedicated long range hunter communities; some use benchrest type rifles and those techniques while other use precision (custom/tuned) hunting class rifles and bipods and somewhat shorter maximum distances.

I believe that if you were to meet and hunt with long range hunters you'd find a representative cross section of the total hunting society... some are decent fun folks, some are decent but serious to the bone and some are folks you wouldn't hunt with for various reasons.


Ray Atkinson

Seems we're both shortening our maximum shooting distance a bit with you down to 300 now from 400 a few years back as I recall. I still hold to 650 yards as maximum on game but haven't been required to actually use all that in a few years.



Skibum


You posted "I think we are mixing up hunters taking longish shots at game and the practice of long range hunting. The latter is intentionally taking as long a shot as possible."

I believe you're mistaken in the belief and statement of "The latter " refering to long range hunting "is intentionally taking as long a shot as possible."

Of all the long range hunters (regarding big game) I personally know and have experience with I don't believe we intentionally make the shot distance longer just to say it's a long shot. We practice to longish distances to be prepared, practiced and confident in our abilities to take the shot required to accomplish the task. Many times we practice to distance far beyond the distance we'd ever consider shooting big game just to hone the skills necessary to ensure success IF we feel the need to make a long shot.

Just this elk season I was practiced and prepared to shoot to 650 yards on elk with my big game rifle and yet when the time came I was inside 100 yards (about 80+-) when the elk presented. I consider myself a long range hunter but I didn't back up to make the shot longer nor did I pass on the shot in hopes of getting a better (further) shot so I'm thinking either I have the long range hunter definition/characteristics incorrect or you do.

quote:

Of all the long range hunters (regarding big game) I personally know and have experience with I don't believe we intentionally make the shot distance longer just to say it's a long shot.

So what you are saying is that when a LRH is set up with a portable bench, wind indicator, laser range finger, ballistic computer, benchrest style rifle, etc. there is no intent to make shots as long as possible? I don't buy it.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Skibum:

quote:

Of all the long range hunters (regarding big game) I personally know and have experience with I don't believe we intentionally make the shot distance longer just to say it's a long shot.

So what you are saying is that when a LRH is set up with a portable bench, wind indicator, laser range finger, ballistic computer, benchrest style rifle, etc. there is no intent to make shots as long as possible? I don't buy it.

Jeff

I'd second that, all that stuff doesn't sound like hunting gear, more like benchrest gear.

Cheers, Dave.

I like many people have lost animals, for various reasons. I believe that hunting is like golf, it is between us, the target and the big guy upstairs. I have never shot beyond 600 yds and that was only at paper. I have killed at about 375 (before lazer rangefinders)I think it was luck. I limit my shots to no more than that. However,I feel that if a guy can do it, more power to him.

My 35 y.o. son just shot his first fork-antlered buck last week and it was a moment to make a dad proud. The buck (169-lb 9-pt) first appeared at the far east end of the sendero at about 280 yds out. Soon it was joined by another buck-a young 10-pt that was an estimated 2.5 y.o.

As the bucks gradually came down the sendero and my son's breathing got more and more ragged, it was obvious to me the deer was in range. However, my son waited until the buck was about 110 yds out and when he turned broadside, he shot him high in the shoulder, clipping the spine, dropping him in his tracks.

So-long range hunting? Not for him-he prefers 'em up close and drops them in their tracks.

You have to look at this from another perspective.

The people I know who shoot elk or deer at long range START mostly at 600 yards and go from there. These are the things I know about them.

1. They have spent over $1000 on a scope
2. They have spent about the same on a action
3. They have custom barrels, with surface ground or precision made recoil lugs
4. There rifles will shoot very small groups at 600 to 1000 yards.

I have one of these rifles chambered in 6.5 x 284, I can put 10 shots in 10 inches at 1000 yards consistent. Yes it is a bench gun, but most long range hunters shoot from a bench. At 200 yards I shoot around a 3/4 inch group. I don't hunt at long range; (there is no thrill for me, but it is a thrill for a few of my friends.) These long range shooters, put another ton of time in working brass and loads and another amount of time shooting at long distances all year long. They are good shots at long range and knock on wood haven't lost any animals. Most of the time if they see an elk or deer, they range find a rock that is a ways away from the elk and the same distance and get zeroed in at that distance before the elk is shot. Most of the time when an animal drops it is not even sure where the shot came from, let alone relize that they are about to die.

I also know another group of hunters.

They have there bolt action or there lever rifles. They shot them last year before hunting season and they were sighted in "pretty close" so they don't need to go to the range this year. OR IF THEY DO GO TO THE RANGE IT IS THE DAY BEFORE THE SEASON STARTS. I know a bunch of these people. I worked at Sportsman's Warehouse in Missoula, some of them came in the day before elk season or deer season to buy a new gun and scope for the next days hunt. We bore sighted there rifle if they bought a scope and rifle as a service. I always told them to go to the range and practice.

Do you know what there reply was???

"Well you bore sighted it, it should be close enough for what I am going to do with it."

How is this group of people better than the long range hunters that practice all year long to perfect that ONE shot????

Don't tell me you don't know the second group of people. I sure as hell know a lot of them and they piss me off. I have seen them wound animals because they won't put the trigger time in at the range. They don't want to spend the money on extra ammo to practice or they don't have time to go to the range.

Know what I view as a circus stunt????? The general population the FWS turns loose on the first day of deer season. I passed the hunters safety test to hunt when I was 9. It was a hard test I got a 90 on it and that was then. I respect the laws, care about the land and wildlife and only take good clean shots. Most of the general population doesn't even know the laws or read the regulations except to check when the first day of "Huntin" starts.


Maybe we should vote whether it is better to let the experienced long range hunter SHOOT animals or the redneck who has no range practice TRY TO SHOOT at them.


Dammit you guys got me all worked up and I was about to go to bed.

Yep, I know some of those 'hunters' too.
Which was one of the reasons we started hunter training and shooting lessons in our deerstalking club.
We can't get them all, but I'll be damned if we can't change a the ones we can influence. If they want to try long shots, fine. At least we can make sure their rifles are zeroed, before they head out.

Cheers, Dave.

You are on a forum full of gun nuts.

We all enjoy shooting more than the average hunter you describe. But the fact is on opening day there are more yahoo's in the woods with boresighted, bolt action rifles spoting $25 Walmart scopes or dusted off lever action 30-30's that haven't been shot since last year.

The difference in degrees of obsesssion is all that we are talking about. The really long range folks practice and prepare incessantly eliminating all the variables to produce the perfect combination for accuracy. The main criticism is that they don't have stalking skills and don't care about wounding animals.

But the great thing about our sport is it allows you to make your own choices about how to hunt. My limits might be 4-500 yards in ideal conditions but that doesn't mean that you are unethical raching out to 800.