If you have the skills, make the kills, reach out and touch em'.
Life is too short to worry about what someone else can do, or thinks is to far.

Maybe we should have some minumum distance hunts, you should have to prove your marksmanship to qualify and nothing under say 400yrds. Unless it's a oneshot kill you don't get to hunt the following year...... Sure would cut down on idiots that shoot at bushes!

quote:

Originally posted by specneeds:
You are on a forum full of gun nuts.

We all enjoy shooting more than the average hunter you describe. But the fact is on opening day there are more yahoo's in the woods with boresighted, bolt action rifles spoting $25 Walmart scopes or dusted off lever action 30-30's that haven't been shot since last year.

The difference in degrees of obsesssion is all that we are talking about. The really long range folks practice and prepare incessantly eliminating all the variables to produce the perfect combination for accuracy. The main criticism is that they don't have stalking skills and don't care about wounding animals.

But the great thing about our sport is it allows you to make your own choices about how to hunt. My limits might be 4-500 yards in ideal conditions but that doesn't mean that you are unethical raching out to 800.

Fair point. I would argue though, that it is unethical to try an 800m shot, if you are not equipped or skilled enough to try.
Maybe that's why I see so many people shuffling along like little old ladies when pacing out their distances to their kills?

Cheers, Dave.

I think with a 1200 yard range finder,my 6.5x20 power scope,A good rest,no wind and no brush inbetween me and the animal I could make a 800 yard shot easliy with my 338-378.The serria match king in 300 gr still has 2400 ft pounds of energy when launched at 3000 fps at 1000 yards.I would have to pratice alot before I would make such a shot also.I have a friend who has a 800 yard range.I want to go out to where I hunt in the open tundra and practice some also at long range.I usually shoot a standing bench even at the range.I shot alot out to 500 yards with very good results with the nosler partitions 250 gr and the 300 gr serrias.I couldnt shoot the serria 300 gr as good as the 250 noslers due to higher recoil.The 250 gr Noslers in my 338-378 dont kick with the break.I noticed that I could even see what I was hitting if the scope was on about 16 power.I needed the sun shade to shoot on 20 power.I usually hunt in the open but it sucks when you cross thickets with a 6.5 low power scope.We need a 2x30 power range finding bullet compensating scope that figures out the drop and wind drift.I do see these coming out in camo advantage color probally.I see long ragne hunting in the open where you can track the game in the scope as alot more sport that shooting penned animals in a high fence.I see penned hunting as a toy for the rich to fill their trophy rooms easily.I like long stalks and clean kills without fences.I practice alot with my guns.I usually shoot my rifles at least 10 times a year or more.I started shooting clay targets in big abanded gravel pits from 200 to 500 yards.When you can hit them every time you know you can take out an animals heart.Its your first shot that counts the most.I use to be able to hit a 4"x4" steel square with iron sites with my muzzleloader with iron sites every time at 100 yards.I have gotten to where without a scope I dont shoot past 50 yards.I just practied with the set trigger on my T/C muzzleloader till I could pop my target every time.It takes alot of practice to get to where you hit targets every time at long range.

Read the article again. The person felt that he had a solid shot, he aimed for the heart, and fired, the deer dropped in its tracks. With the brush he couldn't see that the deer was wounded not down and out.

He could have not posted the whole article and just let it go between him and his friends.

It a lot of balls to post a topic that you wounded an animal.

It takes a lot less balls to criticize someone for there screwup.

I am not trying to criticize people individually. I am just saying that if have not made a bad shot in your hunting life you either are the best shot in the world or you haven't hunted enough.

One of the things I like about reading Craig Boddington's stuff is he writes about his misses not just about his kills. That takes some big ones.

I'm not saying it doesn't increase the risk, because it sure does. I only know a few guys who are long lange hunters and so far they themselves have not lost any animals. The difference between "regular" hunting and long range is that if you are short range hunting you will normally have time to make a second shot. At long range you have to make the first one count.

I really think there are almost two kinds of long range hunters. The guys that build the rifles, test the loads who shoot a ton, as one group.

Then theres the guys who by a Remington Sendero chambered in .338RUM and "think" they can shoot long range.

I think it is latter group of the two who miss and wound animals. I don't know?? These are just more opinions.

But hey, its snowing outside and cold and slushy. It's more fun to debate stuff inside where its warm than to shovel snow outside.

It is exactly like shooting 150 yards with a bow. I do think it is a lot like target practice on live animals. But its legal. And if a serious marksman wants to take such a shot I will not want to say no.

No shot is guaranteed to be successful. All we can do is practice and choose shots that we believe are within our OWN abilities. Wether at 10yards or 1000. JMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by sierrabravo45:
I'm not saying it doesn't increase the risk, because it sure does. I only know a few guys who are long lange hunters and so far they themselves have not lost any animals. The difference between "regular" hunting and long range is that if you are short range hunting you will normally have time to make a second shot. At long range you have to make the first one count.

I really think there are almost two kinds of long range hunters. The guys that build the rifles, test the loads who shoot a ton, as one group.

Then theres the guys who by a Remington Sendero chambered in .338RUM and "think" they can shoot long range.

I think it is latter group of the two who miss and wound animals. I don't know?? These are just more opinions.

But hey, its snowing outside and cold and slushy. It's more fun to debate stuff inside where its warm than to shovel snow outside.

Fair enough, we see just as many 'wannabees' and walter mitty types here in OZ as you have probably seen in the States. Guys who dust off the old 303 for their once a year trip to the Alps for a deer.
And then there are the guys who spend a fortune on gear, and practice all the time, who could probably pull off the kinds of shots mentioned here, reliably.
But for me, the true measure of a hunter is how close he can get to his game undetected, rather than how far he can shoot.
JMHO

Cheers, Dave.

I'm former military and grew up shooting match comps in the NRA as a kid before I went into the service. My granddad built custom Mauser 98s so it was a natural thing to do.
That said I shoot my .06 at the club out to 1000yds all the time for the fun of it and if I was still in the service and deployed I wouldn't think twice about taking a 1000yd shot- but I'd want the right weapon for the job.
But the way I prefer to hunt- I wouldn't take a shot at game over 300yds. I'm still a pretty stealthy guy (and I normally bowhunt with a recurve anyway) and hunting to me is using all of my hunting skills to get as close as I can to take the shot- preferably inside 30yds with my recurve.
I don't have any problems with the guys that long-range hunt and most of them have the gear and that's what they practice to do- that's their way that they enjoy the sport. With a 338-378 or a 338Lapua making a 1000yd game shot is what those cartridges were built for.

Now for what long range shooting was really meant for!!



Sniper shot that took out an insurgent killer from three quarters of a mile
1Jan2006 - by: Toby Harnden in Ramadi

Gazing through the telescopic sight of his M24 rifle,

Staff Sgt Jim Gilliland,
leader of Shadow sniper team, fixed his eye on the Iraqi insurgent who had just
killed an American soldier.

His quarry stood nonchalantly in the fourth-floor bay window of a hospital in
battle-torn Ramadi, still clasping a long-barrelled Kalashnikov. Instinctively
allowing for wind speed and bullet drop, Shadow's commander aimed 12 feet high.

A single shot hit the Iraqi in the chest and killed him instantly. It had been
fired from a range of 1,250 metres, well beyond the capacity of the powerful
Leupold sight, accurate to 1,000 metres.

"I believe it is the longest confirmed kill in Iraq with a 7.62mm rifle,"
said Staff Sgt Gilliland, 28, who hunted squirrels in Double Springs, Alabama
from the age of five before progressing to deer - and then people.

"He was visible only from the waist up. It was a one in a million shot.
I could probably shoot a whole box of ammunition and never hit him again."

Later that day, Staff Sgt Gilliland found out that the dead soldier was
Staff Sgt Jason Benford, 30, a good friend.

The insurgent was one of between 55 and 65 he estimates that he has shot dead
in less than five months, putting him within striking distance of sniper legends
such as Carlos Hathcock, who recorded 93 confirmed kills in Vietnam.
One of his men, Specialist Aaron Arnold, 22, of Medway, Ohio, has chalked up a similar tally.

"It was elating, but only afterwards," said Staff Sgt Gilliland, recalling the
September 27 shot. "At the time, there was no high-fiving. You've got troops
under fire, taking casualties and you're not thinking about anything other
than finding a target and putting it down. Every shot is for the betterment
of our cause."

All told, the 10-strong Shadow sniper team, attached to Task Force 2/69,
has killed just under 200 in the same period and emerged as the US Army's
secret weapon in Ramadi against the threat of the hidden Improvised Explosive Device
(IED) or roadside bomb - the insurgency's deadliest tactic.

Above the spot from which Staff Sgt Gilliland took his record shot, in a room at
the top of a bombed-out observation post which is code-named Hotel and known
jokingly to soldiers as the Ramadi Inn, are daubed "Kill Them All" and "Kill Like you Mean it".

On another wall are scrawled the words of Senator John McCain: "America is great
not because of what she has done for herself but because of what she has done for others."

The juxtaposition of macho slogans and noble political rhetoric encapsulates the dirty,
dangerous and often callous job the sniper has to carry out as an integral part of a
campaign ultimately being waged to help the Iraqi people.

With masterful understatement, Lt Col Robert Roggeman, the Task Force 2/69 commander,
conceded: "The romantic in me is disappointed with the reception we've received in Ramadi,
"a town of 400,000 on the banks of the Euphrates where graffiti boasts, with more than a
degree of accuracy: "This is the graveyard of the Americans".

"We're the outsiders, the infidels," he said. "Every time somebody goes out that main gate
he might not come back. It's still a running gun battle."

Highly effective though they are, he worries about the burden his snipers have to bear.
"It's a very God-like role. They have the power of life and death that, if not held in check,
can run out of control. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

"Every shot has to be measured against the Rules of Engagement [ROE], positive identification
and proportionality."

Staff Sgt Gilliland explains that his Shadow team operates at the "borderlines" of the ROE,
making snap judgements about whether a figure in the crosshairs is an insurgent or not.

"Hunters give their animals respect," he said, spitting out a mouthful of chewing tobacco.
"If you have no respect for what you do you're not going to be very good or you're going to
make a mistake. We try to give the benefit of the doubt.

"You've got to live with it. It's on your conscience. It's something you've got to carry away
with you. And if you shoot somebody just walking down the street, then that's probably going
to haunt you."

Although killing with a single shot carries an enormous cachet within the sniper world,
their most successful engagements have involved the shooting a up to 10 members of a single
IED team.

"The one-shot-one-kill thing is one of beauty but killing all the bad dudes is even more
attractive," said Staff Sgt Gilliland, whose motto is "Move fast, shoot straight and leave
the rest to the counsellors in 10 years" and signs off his e-mails with
"silent souls make.308 holes".

Whether Shadow team's work will ultimately make a difference in Iraq is open to question.
No matter how many insurgents they shoot, there seems no shortage of recruits to plant bombs.

Col John Gronski, the overall United States commander in Ramadi, said there could not be a
military solution. "You could spend years putting snipers out and killing IED emplacers
and at the political level it would make no difference."

As they prepare to leave Iraq, however, Staff Sgt Gilliland and his men hope that they have
bought a little more time for the country's politicians to fix peace and stability in their sights.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

more on Gilliland-
Gilliland leads a ten man squad of snipers (the “Shadowsâ€), that have been averaging ten kills a month in support of the infantry battalion they belong to. Some members of the team are averaging over ten kills a month. The snipers are particularly effective at night, when they often catch Iraqis trying to set up IEDs. In one case, his snipers killed ten members of an IED team. Ramadi is a Sunni Arab town, and full of Iraqis who really, really want to go back to the old days when Sunni Arabs ran the country, and a Sunni Arab dictator was in charge.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sniper Feeling

While interviewing a US Army Special Forces soldier in Afghanistan, a Reuters News reporter asked the soldier what he felt when killing Al Qaeda with a sniper rifle.

The soldier thought for a moment and replied, "Recoil."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

January 13, 2006 Sgt. Jan Carlos Manzano, a sniper from Company D, 2nd Battalion, 22nd Infantry Regiment,
provides security for fellow Soldiers in the village of Shiaha, Iraq.
Photo by Staff Sgt. Kevin L. Moses

CaptJack, now THAT's good shooting!

Cheers, Dave.

The 338-378 Weatherby with a 30" barrel will shoot a 300 grain Serria match king bullet at 3000 fps no problem.This bullet at 1000 yards is still traveling at 2000 fps and has 2400 ft of energy.Its about as much as a 308 at thre muzzle but I bet a 300 grain .338 at 2000 fps hits alot harder than a 308 winchester at 2800 fps.I wish that all our troops had at least two 338 lapula or a 338-378 Weatherby in Iraq for every 10 men.That would be a way to take them out and reach out and touch someone.I need to practice more till I can shoot 1000 yards .Then I would be open to 1000 yards shots.I trust my 250 gr Nosler Partitions at 3150 fps out to 800 yards with a range finder and lots of practice.I am going to try these new 325 gr bullets from Canada .They are bonded hunting bullets instead of match bullets like the serria match kings are.I think the serria boattail 250 gr might be a good long range bullet also.It takes lots of practice but its not hard to hit targets far away.I tried shooting clay targets at 300 yards.After I could hit them every shot on a calm day I moved them to 400 yards.I then shot till I could hit them at 400 yards.I moved them to the end of the target range which is 1/4 a mile 440 yards.I could hit them about 95% of the time.If I can hit a clay target that far why cant I hit the shoulder of an animal even further.I usually take shoulder shots because you can eat right up to the whole with my nosler partition loads and you have the larget killing zone of an animal.If you hit high you miss or hit the spine.If you hit to far back your in the lungs.If you hit to far forward you hit the spine in the neck.I have used this shot on a large % of the big game I have killed.I have also taken straight forward shots at game using the center of the distance between the neck and brisket.This shot is very deadly also.I have split a few deer out to 425 yrds using this shot.I also use from behind spine shots if the face away from me.This is usually from a tree stand.I like at least a medium heavy balanced rifle and a very good scope.Its not hard to shoot big game at long range you just have to make sure you hit your target and have enough energy to kill it.The 338-378 is alot better of a killer on big game than a .224 bullets at 100 yards.Thats why the 223 was not a good round in the desert at 300 yards.Its a varmit round.Our guys needed bigger guns for the longer distances in the desert.I hope they get as many 338 Lapula as the need.I hope they all come home safe too.

dgr416, I understand your reasoning, and if you can pull it off, then why not?
But that's just not for me, you know? I realise that it interests some, but not all.
JMHO, but I would rather try to get closer, if the critter spots me and bolts, ah well, better luck next time.
I can afford to say that as I live close to some of the best stalking country in OZ, and I can slip away pretty well much whenever I feel like it.
For those not quite as lucky, I (JMHO) feel that practise is the answer. Instead of clays, you could try what we used to do. Blow up balloons to about the size of a head, and tether them at varying (unknown) distances between 200 and 800m. Because the balloons move, it is a very challenging shoot, and one which accurately reflects the difficulty faced by real world snipers.
As for the guys and girls still in the sandbox, I second your thoughts, and hope and pray that they all come home safe.

Cheers, Dave.

The 450 yard shot I took was an easy one.I had my scope on 16 power.I had a very good rest in the prone position.I took the shot and it was a one shot kill.I let my buddy who was 11 take almost the same shot and he got two with one shot.They were on a mountain side and the second one must have been laying down right behind the first one.I looked on top of the mountain and there was another hudge caribou with one of the biggest racks I have seen.I looked through the scope and said pow,I got alot of packing and game dressing to do already I dont need another one.It took 4 of us 10 hours to clean and pack all them in one trip.I will only shoot one at a time next time.

Well, there isn't much you can do about a two for one deal, is there?

Cheers, Dave.

quote:

Originally posted by Tailgunner:
IV
Mine is a general comment, for all to consider.
The "long range" argument has been going on ever since the first guy tied his sharp rock onto a long stick, and it realy intensified when someone started throwing that stick at game. We arn't going to settle it on this, or ony other board.

Actually I'm willing to bet that after the idea was demonstrated everyone else in his tribe embraced the idea wholeheartedly...

"You mean we don't have to get trampled to get dinner? .... COOL!"

I doubt the people that would run an entire herd of animals off a cliff by chasing them with lit torches cared much about "sporting"
They were more concerned with having full bellies as often as possible.

AllanD

Well, in an effort to not piss anybody off but still voice my opinion, here goes.

Anyone who shoots like the guy killing the elk in the video is still hunting. He probably hiked or road horseback in to that place. Hopefully there wasn't a pickup or fourwheeler sittng behind the camera. If there was ? Well he was probably hunting on private property in Colorado that is "funded" by Ranching for Wildlife and in a rich A$$4073 anyway.

As for a 338-378 being able to outshoot a 338 Win mag by 300 yards? Comeon I didn't just fall off a turnip truck. It's like one of the guys at work telling me his 30-378 can shoot a 180 grain bullet at 3900 fps. Ain't gonna happen. I shoot a 300RUM not because I want to be able to kill elk at 1000 yards but because I happen to think it's one hell of a cartridge. Comes pretty close to a 30-378 but you don't have to take out a loan to buy shells or powder to feed it.

The nimrod who shot the whitetail with his 50 bmg should have his head examined because he may have killed the deer but he also ruined 50% of the meat. Looks like he wasn't hungry anyway, just greedy.

The farthest shot I ever took and killed an elk was 450 yards with my 35 Whelen. Yes, you read it right, 35 Whelen. I think the reason I was able to make that shot is that I took the time to shoot the gun alot before I ever took it out hunting. I've shot at elk farther than that with my 7 mag but failed to connect. Why did I miss? Well because the wind was blowing like hell and I was young and foolish enough not to have taken that rifle out in the preseason and shot it enough to get know to it. I've since put over 500 rounds thru that rifle and if you can tell me how far a target is away I can probably hit it. I have a collection of 9 inch steel plates that I take out and set up from 300 to 600 yards (5 at every 100 yard increment)and can knock over all 5 at each range with 1 shot per target. It took lots of practice to do that and I probably couln't do it today but after a few practice shots? Yeah I bet I could. But then the U.S.Army is not paying me to do nothing but sit and shoot with the aide of a spotter and a $1500 laser range finder and a $1500 dollar scope on a $2000 dollar rifle.

Will I ever take another long shot (over 500 yds) at an elk? Probably, but you can bet I did my homework and put in plenty of trigger time getting to know the gun I happen to be shooting at the time. NAd you can bet your bippy I didn't get to that spot on a fourwheller or in a pickup. I road my mule or hiked in wishing had ridden my mule.

GO STEELERS!!!

Once again, practice, knowledge of your equipment (and it's limitations), and a knowledge of your own limitations as a shooter, are the key.
As described above.

Cheers, Dave.

quote:

Originally posted by dgr416:
The 338-378 Weatherby with a 30" barrel will shoot a 300 grain Serria match king bullet at 3000 fps no problem.This bullet at 1000 yards is still traveling at 2000 fps and has 2400 ft of energy.Its about as much as a 308 at thre muzzle but I bet a 300 grain .338 at 2000 fps hits alot harder than a 308 winchester at 2800 fps.I wish that all our troops had at least two 338 lapula or a 338-378 Weatherby in Iraq for every 10 men.That would be a way to take them out and reach out and touch someone.I need to practice more till I can shoot 1000 yards .Then I would be open to 1000 yards shots.I trust my 250 gr Nosler Partitions at 3150 fps out to 800 yards with a range finder and lots of practice.I am going to try these new 325 gr bullets from Canada .They are bonded hunting bullets instead of match bullets like the serria match kings are.I think the serria boattail 250 gr might be a good long range bullet also.It takes lots of practice but its not hard to hit targets far away.I tried shooting clay targets at 300 yards.After I could hit them every shot on a calm day I moved them to 400 yards.I then shot till I could hit them at 400 yards.I moved them to the end of the target range which is 1/4 a mile 440 yards.I could hit them about 95% of the time.If I can hit a clay target that far why cant I hit the shoulder of an animal even further.I usually take shoulder shots because you can eat right up to the whole with my nosler partition loads and you have the larget killing zone of an animal.If you hit high you miss or hit the spine.If you hit to far back your in the lungs.If you hit to far forward you hit the spine in the neck.I have used this shot on a large % of the big game I have killed.I have also taken straight forward shots at game using the center of the distance between the neck and brisket.This shot is very deadly also.I have split a few deer out to 425 yrds using this shot.I also use from behind spine shots if the face away from me.This is usually from a tree stand.I like at least a medium heavy balanced rifle and a very good scope.Its not hard to shoot big game at long range you just have to make sure you hit your target and have enough energy to kill it.The 338-378 is alot better of a killer on big game than a .224 bullets at 100 yards.Thats why the 223 was not a good round in the desert at 300 yards.Its a varmit round.Our guys needed bigger guns for the longer distances in the desert.I hope they get as many 338 Lapula as the need.I hope they all come home safe too.

This bullet drifts nearly 4 inches if the wind blows 1 mph. A princess fairy farts harder than that. If the vital area of a deer is 10 inches wide, then you have to be able to shoot 2.3 inch groups at 1000 yards before you risk a miss. A wind of only 1.5 mph blows the bullet completely out of the vital area.

Tell you what guys...I shoot EVERY week at ranges from 700 to 850 yards. A one mile per wind is pretty damn tough at 800 yards, especially if it is fishtailing. I shot last week at 750 yards. The wind blew 3 mph right to left as I set up. By the time I was ready to shoot it was 3 mph left to right. I threw in six clicks, fired quickly, and hit 4 inches the left.

I was the three time undefeated US Army Alaska Champion, the I Corps runner up the first year I shot there, and the winner the next year, so I am not a bad shot (that means in three years I competed against a total of about 110,000 guys and got beat by one guy, who I likely beat the next year). But I would be the last guy to say a 1000 yard shot on a game animal is doable.

But if any of you think you can hit a 10 by 10 inch target at 1000 yards 9 of 10 times, I would like to see it. I will even offer anyone who can do it 1000 bucks. If you don't do it, you owe me $500. If you do it, I pay for your plane ticket. Sounds like a great story for The VARMINT HUNTER.

You fly to Phoenix, and we go out to the desert for 3 days. You shoot 3 shots the first three days, four on the last, assuming you don't miss twice the first two.

I am all ears...the last time I offered this all I got was complaining about this being a set up, etc. So far, no takers.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
But if any of you think you can hit a 10 by 10 inch target at 1000 yards 9 of 10 times....the last time I offered this all I got was complaining about this being a set up, etc. So far, no takers.

I thought the last time you offered it was 800. Why the range increase? What happened?

quote:

Originally posted by Jon A:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
But if any of you think you can hit a 10 by 10 inch target at 1000 yards 9 of 10 times....the last time I offered this all I got was complaining about this being a set up, etc. So far, no takers.

I thought the last time you offered it was 800. Why the range increase? What happened?

The Egos in the long distance camp got bigger?

Cheers, Dave.

Because suddenly 1000 yards is now a chip shot.

Does anyone hunt where the wind never blows? A zero wind means cigar or cigarette smoke drifts perfectly straight up.

AnotherAZWriter: those who hunt long range seriously(!) use BR like equipmenet.

What about shooting a 338LM improved necked down to shoot a 7mm 200 grain ULD bullet at 3300fps, with a bc of .950

Wind drift at 1000 yards is 1 mil, at 10 mph winds from 90 degrees..



Now they are making a 408 Chey-tac necked down to .338 shooting a 350 ULD bullet at 3300 fps.

Nortman:

I calculate that ULD bullet to drift 2.7 inches at 1000 yards in a one mile per hour wind. But using your figures, one mil is 36 inches at 1000 yards, so it would drift 3.6 inches in a 1 mph wind.

Accuracy plays second fiddle to the wind at 1000 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Because suddenly 1000 yards is now a chip shot.

The guy you quoted didn't say he has ever even shot at 1000 yet, much less made any bold claims that it was a "chip shot" for him.

You know darn well the level of difficulty increase from 800 to 1000. Rasing the bar that much and trying to pass it off as the same challenge strikes me as disingenuous.

It is disrespectful to the game one is pursuing to shoot further than you can guarantee a quick and humane kill. It is harmful to our sport for such stunts to be popularized. It is confusing the difference between hunting and killing.

Jon:

You are certainly right about the difficulty. 1000 yards is more than twice as hard as 800. But even 800 9 of 10 times is just about a miracle. My original "offer" was not a 2 for 1 deal. But if anyone thinks they can do this at 800, I will do a 1:1 odds bet.

We sometimes need to remember the definition of an ETHICAL HUNTER:

"A person who knows and respects the animals hunted, follows the law, and behaves in a way that will satisfy what society expects of him or her as a hunter".

HUNTING IS NOT A CONTEST OR A PUBLIC PERFORMANCE.

When the time comes to kill an animal, YOUR RESPONSIBILITY IS TO DO IT EFFICIENTLY.

An ethical hunter knows the effective range of his gun and gives the target animal the benefit of any doubt. You must be confident that the shot will be a good one. Hoping for a lucky hit is unacceptable.

As hunters, we must establish a high ethical standard of fair chase. The general public will not tolerate hunting uner any other circumstances.

Gary

Oh, oh! Gary said the 'E' word! Now the long range guys are REALLY going to rant.



Cheers, Dave.

You should check out longrangehunting.com.They make 1000 yards shots all the time.You dont have to make 9 out of 10 shots its your first shot that counts.The 338-378 Weatherby is one of the finest long range hunting gun today.Yes there is the 408 but your taking about a gun that weighs alot more and is not really that much of a hunting rifle.My rifle weighs under 10 pounds with a 6.5x20 power scope on it.I will some day if I shoot out the barrel replace it with a 30" barrel of the same contour.Its a very sweet shooting rifle dont knock it till you tried it.

DGR:

Here is my point: I shoot enough at long range to know that a 1000 yard shot has a serious chance of being blown out by a wind you can't even see. Every once in a while I shoot wide at "excessive" ranges and I can guarantee it happens to these guys at LR hunting.com. It is simply amazing how much wind you have to dial in even at 700 yards - a little 2 mph breeze is one MOA at range with a .300 RUM. I often throw in 8 clicks in a wind you wouldn't dream of being a problem at 300 yards. I always hear the reply "I don't shoot in the wind." Well, then you must not shoot very much.

It is the first shot that counts. My challenge is 9 of ten shots on 10 different targets at different times of the day over 3 days. Hell, I go out all the time and hit my target at 750 yards with the first shot - sitting at that, with only a sling. Big deal.

Those guys on long range hunting use custom made bench rest rifles that probably have a trigger in them that cost more than your 338-378. Just simple common sense tells me that what AZwriter says is true. We have a mechanical engineer at work that is always crunching numbers to show us that something should work. I take great pleasure in proving him wrong. He's begining to understand that a mechanic earned his engineering degree the hard way. Also the numbers that you get out of a ballistics calculator program are only as good as the numbers you put in them. There are to many variables in the equasion for me to trust what I see on paper much, unless I put it there with my rifle.

Oh and by the way how can you get 3000 fps with a 300 grain bullet. Weatherby only lists the 338-378 at 3060 fps with a 250 grain bullet.

I think I smell poopey

With a 30 inch barrel you can get 3000 fps no problem.My rifle gets 3150 with a 250 gr bullet and 2850 with a 300 gr serria match king.If you dont think I could hit it then just hold the 10"x10" target and see how far I could miss.My longest shot ever is 450 yards on game.I try to get as close as I can in any hunting I do.I turned down a shot on a grizzley that was 400 yards with my 338 win mag because I knew it was pushing too far to shoot.I wont shoot unless I know I can make the shot.I have shot my rifles enough at the range to know where they hit.I dont go around just blindly shooting at game that I know is too far to shoot.I quit shoot small caliber guns as in 243 because I did make a good shot and it did not take the animal cleanly.I trailed the deer to where another hunter had shot the same deer.He never knew it had been hit.I quit hunting with the 243 for that reason.I also quit using the 30-06 because at 200 yards deer would run after you shot them far enough for someone on another club to shoot them.I swiched to a 338 win mag and have taken 83 deer with 83 shots from 3 yards to 425 yards.I shot wild dogs enough to where I could also take running shots on deer.It tore up way less meat than any other rifle I ever used.I wont take a shot unless I know its a good one .It didnt take me long to see the killing difference between the 243 and the 30-06 then to the 300 win mag and the 338 win mag.I then saw the 338-378 as the next step above the 338 win mag.If you dont practice with your gun at long range you dont need to shoot further than 100 yards.I have seen idots with rifles shoot a 4'x8' sheet of sheetrock at 100 yards with almost three foot groups say they were ready to hunt.You cant get 10 white guys to agree on anything thats why the antihunters will end hunting.If we argue among ourselves enough we will divide ourselfs and they wont have to end hunting we will.There are too many asshole on here that is all they want to do.I dont go around shooting game at long range just for the hell of it.I see how far I can sneek up on game .By the way how many of you have taken kids hunting instead of sitting here bitching at others.I have taken 15 kids hunting and 14 ar still at it.The other one is working two jobs to get through college.What have you done for hunting besides arguing so much that its is dividing hunters instead of doing something good for the sport.

This little debacle..um debate..seems to boil down to the definition of hunting. To be sure, snipers can and do make fantastically long shots routinely. Nobody classifies them as sport hunters. There are some who do the same on game. Each one of us has to learn what our limitations are and how our actions affect others - game and other hunters as well as nonhunters. We seem to have forgotten that there are responsibilities that accompany our hunting priveleges.

I shot my last whitetail buck from something like 40 yds from a treestand (first time I had done that). Of all the whitetail bucks I've killed, that one seemed the least like "hunting" to me.

Hunters will differ on "definition." Ridicule some for theirs and don't be surprised when somebody ridicules you for yours. For those who want to scream "Ethics!" about any shots outside their own personal 200 yd comfort zone, go ahead and keep screaming if you've taken your last 9 big game animals with 10 or fewer rounds fired. Otherwise your time may be better spent evaluating your own skills and judgement afield.

quote:

Originally posted by ACRecurve:
This little debacle..um debate..seems to boil down to the definition of hunting. To be sure, snipers can and do make fantastically long shots routinely. Nobody classifies them as sport hunters. There are some who do the same on game. Each one of us has to learn what our limitations are and how our actions affect others - game and other hunters as well as nonhunters. We seem to have forgotten that there are responsibilities that accompany our hunting priveleges.

Yep, for snipers, it's only 'sport hunting' if you are up against another sniper, If that's the case, your fieldcraft better be a whole lot better than his.

I do agree with dgr416 on one thing though. In this magnificent debate on how far away you should attempt to cleanly take a game animal, we are only driving wedges through the sport that the anti's and greenies wish they could!
We all have something in common on this forum, we shoot or hunt. Any attempt to enforce 'ethics' or 'morals' simply plays into their hands.

JonA, At last count I was 7 for 7, last year. But then I don't shoot unless I am SURE of a clean kill. Having said that, I pass up an LOT of shots that don't 'feel' right, or if I am unsure of the background. Longest shot was 126 of my paces, call it about 100m. All deer, all taken with a little 7x57R.

If you have got the right gear, and you feel the need to take shots at animals pst 450m and you practice enough to be actually able to do it, safely, then have fun! But if you screw it up, and the anti's use it against us to try and ban hunting (and they will, count on it!), then you are no better than Mark Sullivan.

If you are not 100% sure of the outcome, then don't pull the trigger.
JMHO.

Cheers, Dave.

quote:

Originally posted by Sambar 9.3:
If you are not 100% sure of the outcome, then don't pull the trigger.

...which is wonderful advice for everybody. It just seems to me that when a "typical" day of hunting season where there's public access and the woods are filled with "average hunters" sounds like WWIII has begun (from mostly "close" shots), those who feel the need to ride their high horses somewhere might be more productive if they pointed them in a direction other than at those who practice sometimes thousands of rounds a year to become good at what they do.

Jon A, I couldn't agree more. The only problems are, #1. No-one who reads or posts on this forum is an 'average hunter', we are mostly people who practice a fair bit to keep our skills up.
As such your average 'slob hunter' isn't going to read this discourse, or be effected by it.
They will continue to go there merry way, providing ammo for the anti's, and having fun.
#2, I can't ride so well anymore.

Cheers, Dave.

I shoot all my rifles from a standing bench.I started doing this because your not going to have a bench rest in the field.I also have only shot my 416 rem mags this way so that I could get use to shooting them.I have shot in one day my 338 win mags 300 times one has a boss muzzle break and the other is the heavier Ruger which does not kick that much.I used two past pads so that I didnt even feel the recoil.I shot at 100 yards then 200 till I could shoot both rifles under or near an inch every
time at 200 yards.I then moved to 300 yards and could still shoot under 2" or less at 300 yards.Most groups were around 1 3/4".This was with 3x9 scopes on both rifles.The same day I shot my 338-378 and I was getting around 3/4" groups at 200 yards and 1.5" groups or less some down to 1.05 inches at 300 yards.My cousin had shot two .25" groups with my rifle that day at 100 yards.I know that my rifle sited in at 300 yards is able to shoot moose at 500 yards with a center shoulder shot with about 6 inches higher on the shoulder.I have shot deer and moose cut outs every chance I had had.I reload not to only save money but to reload as much as possible.The 338-378 has alot more power than any of the 300 mags ever dreamed of.Its not only the paper enerdy that makes a difference its the diameter of the bullet and how big of an exit hole it makes on the other side.I have not found another bullet yet that my 338-378s like better than the 250 grain nosler partition.I might never take a 800 yard shot at game but I know that I can hit a moose dead center in the shoulder at that range if I had to.I try to get as close to any game as I can always.
Its divided hunters that will end hunting.some hunters dont like using bait and dogs for bears so it was outlawed in many states.Some hunters think muzzleloaders that can make 200 yard shots are not muzzle loaders.archery hunters are divided about cross bows as they are allowed in more areas.Some hunters dont think black assult rifles are hunting rifles.We as hunters are decreasing and getting older.The average hunter is now 42 years old.There are way fewer hunters than ever in most all states.Its the once a year hunter that is most likely to miss or wound game bacause he does not practice over once a year.Its each hunters duty to know not only where to shoot at on an animal but how far is his own limit and is the shot safe to take.I have turned down some of the largest deer of my life because I knew my 338 would go through the deer and on towards a house.I would rather try again some day and be safe than sorry for a wrongly placed shot.While your arguing weather or not I can make a 800 yard shot on moose there are thousands of antihunters thinking of thousands of new ways to make hunting go away.You would not believe it but many fish and game agencies would rather just be patroling parks for animals than fooling with hunters.I see it more and more hunters racing to game to see who shoot it first.Hunting is not the mainstay it use to be its on the sharpest decline it has ever been in.I asked a high up offical how long he thought hunting would last.I thought his answer would be 50 years or so.He said hunting as we know it would be lost in the next generation.Hunting is getting so expensive that its not the sport of every kid growing up.Its become the sport of who has the most money to fill their wallsd with the most trophies.There are alot of hunters who do take their kids but thats not enough to take only your own kids.You have to take every kid that want to go hunting.I have had some of the best hunts of my life taking kids when I could have just gone on my own for a trophy.I still like to shoot a big buck but I would rather see a kids face a million to one whewn they take their first big game animal.If they dont have a gun I loan them one of mine to go with me.I relaod lots of shells when they dont have enough to practice with.I take them to get their hunters safety course and to the range to practice.Its not how many trophies on your wall that will matter when you leave this earth.its the number of new kid hunters you left here that you taught to hunt that matters.What have you done to help save the sport of hunting lately.

dgr416, I wholeheartedly agree about the delcine in hunting, the increase in costs and Gov't interference.
I want as much as anyone to see hunting continue as a cultural activity, to be passed onto our children.

As to what I've done lately to help save the hunting culture (never call it sport hunting, always refer to it as a cultural pursuit! It tends to put the anti's and politicians on the back foot!), lets see.
#1. Got myself appointed to the State avisory board that advises the minister of the environment about hunting issues.
#2. Accepted the nomination of my deerstalking club for the Vice-presidents job.
#3. Got the State Gov't to change it's mind about the duck season ban (not by myself, there lots of people doing it).
#4. Accepted the role of deerstalking club training officer, for licensing and accreditation purposes.
#5. Accepted the postition of hunter training officer, in the role of survival instructor. (some of the places we hunt can be mighty unforgiving)
#6. Help out any club finding itself in difficulty with training or accreditation issues.
#7. Confer with Landowner groups about hunting issues, and pest control. Also law-enforcement/rangers about poaching issues.
#8. Help with the local 'outward bound' program for troubled kids, by teaching them bushcraft and self reliance.

Apart from that, not much.

How about you?

Cheers, Dave.