quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
As long as it is legal,that is fine with me.I do not judge other people.OB

Post number five in this shit storm.OB

quote:

Post number five in this shit storm.OB

Just checking since the post I made Thaking Lane for his comments was on page 5.

You may not understand it but this "Shit Storm" openly shows why hunters are in the running for which group will bring about the end of hunting!

You may find it comical, but I find it pretty damn pitiful that some hunters openly admit to being willing to support the closure of some forms of hunting because it does not meet with their "ETHICAL" standars.

You and others may not find this somewhat disturbing, but I do!

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Post number five in this shit storm.OB

Just checking since the post I made Thaking Lane for his comments was on page 5.

You may not understand it but this "Shit Storm" openly shows why hunters are in the running for which group will bring about the end of hunting!

You may find it comical, but I find it pretty damn pitiful that some hunters openly admit to being willing to support the closure of some forms of hunting because it does not meet with their "ETHICAL" standars.

You and others may not find this somewhat disturbing, but I do!

Randall,
You definitely uncovered the truth.

“We have met the enemy and he is us.”

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

8. Increase the price of all hunting liscences to at least $100 for basic hunting priviledges. Money goes to state game departments to structure the hunting permit classes.

Seriously? That $100 may be chump change to you but I have quite a few hunting friends that rely on venison to feed their families and that $100 pay to play suggestion is ludicrous if the State Fish and Game folks don't need it for proper resource management.

Hunting has become a white collar sport. Maybe some want it like that, certainly appears that way from some of the comments. You need only to look at the price of outfitted hunts or deer leases to see that.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

“We have met the enemy and he is us.”

We agree but for different reasons. Those among us that choose to engage in unethical and irresponsible hunting behaviors are undermining and will continue to undermine the sport. Hunters like Dr. Palmer, the croc hunter, the backslapping and yuck-it-up over a carcass hunters, etc. will keep the sport under the microscope and continue to alienate the vast majority of the voting public that find such actions repulsive. And the tragedy is that so many hunters are prepared to simply cast a blind eye to such actions on the basis that if its legal everyone ought to just leave us the hell alone . . . which of course they will not and will use the actions of unethical and irresponsible hunters to pursue changes to the laws dealing with hunting. This is not speculation, it is happening as we speak. We have no one to blame but ourselves. If we cannot get our own house in order we can hardly complain when legislators and regulators bending to public pressure do it for us.

Mike,
The Cecil story was a case of government corruption meeting slimy outfitter PH and was not totally legal but not on Palmer’s part. While not a stellar guy...really a bystander. The croc shooter is just a bad person...should have been fed to the crocs instead of shooting one...can't fix that...in all walks of life. Christo...the croc outfitter is just a typical RSA Dutchman with a croc farm looking to maximize profit on his crop...croc going to get a panga between the eyes anyway...he doesn’t care...not going to fix him either...not a stellar fellow.

The rest you state...I agree with...social media and idiotic shows.

quote:

This is not speculation, it is happening as we speak.

True...but it is due to hunters capitulating and throwing others under the bus to hopefully save themselves. Randall did a good job exposing it in this thread.

Traditional hunting like coon hunting with hounds not suitable for today’s society??? Give me a break!

Then stopping timed-feeders for white-tail hunting??? That will happen in Texas and Oklahoma when hell freezes over. State secession is more likely.

Certainly condemn corruption as in Cecil debaucle...we all agree. Croc hunter type bad folks should be ostracized.

Other than that...hunters had better unite. Or, lose the sport.

A few quotes from Aldo Leopold:

“A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is that the hunter ordinarily has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct. Whatever his acts, they are dictated by his own conscience, rather than a mob of onlookers. It is difficult to exaggerate the importance of this fact.”

“Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching- even when doing the wrong thing is legal.”

These quotes are as applicable now as then. I think many hunters and gun owners can learn a lot from the first quote. Now days, too many seem to live for the applause. Many have a negative "in your face" attitude as they seek attention and public approval as well as disapproval. They crave the mob of onlookers. They cannot be a quiet professional. They are much more harmful to hunting than any legal method of hunting. They are poor ambassadors of our beloved sport.

I support legal hunting methods; that does not mean I will participate in all of them. I know terrain, wildlife populations, culture and tradition drive many of these laws. I believe the public spectacle that many want to make of hunting is our biggest enemy regardless of the method.

I will not judge anyone's personal ethics. I just remind everyone to be careful of what standard you set because someone may hold you to it. The undecided non-hunting population views typical deer stand hunting in a much better light than any type of hunting in Africa. Where do the emotional lunatics throw most of their muscle lately?

So back to hunters vs hunters, that is the title of this thread. Certain "hunters" actions should not be supported, regardless of the law.

Just my thoughts.

Safe travels.................Larry

quote:

Those among us that choose to engage in unethical and irresponsible hunting behaviors are undermining and will continue to undermine the sport.

Okay Jines, you have already stated that hunting deer from a blind over a timed feerer is unethical!

Lane stated that he hunts deer that way!

Does he get a "Hall Pass" because he hunts in Africa????

This is a really curious situation Jines. Lane also basically stated that as long as what ther hunter is doing is legal, he has no problem!

You do not seem to share that attitude based on some of your comments!

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

Okay Jines, you have already stated that hunting deer from a blind over a timed feerer is unethical!

You simply make shit up. Please find and show us the quote where I ever said such a thing. You have a disturbing pattern of just saying things that are false. You say folks believe that behaving ethically will appease anti-hunting groups. No one ever said such a thing. To the contrary I have heard people say that we will never appease anti-hunting groups and that our efforts to encourage ethical and responsible hunting are directed at the segment of the public that is neither pro- nor anti-hunting to keep them from becoming anti-hunting. You say that we want practices outlawed. Again I think a fair reading of the comments is that no one is calling for anything to be outlawed, they are saying as hunters we should condemn, ban as a group and stop engaging in such behaviors to prevent laws from being passed to prohibit anything . . . let’s police ourselves. Not sure why you have a compulsion to fabricate information, perhaps it is unintentional and just a function of your inability to process information. That may be being charitable.

quote:

So back to hunters vs hunters, that is the title of this thread. Certain "hunters" actions should not be supported, regardless of the law.

That is something I do agree with, but dictating personal behavior is something that as a groiup we cannot control and I seriously doubt you will find a GW that can quote any written law on the books prohibiting anyone from being a jackass/jerk.

But, when hunters openly state that they want LEGAL hunting methods closed down, because they do not agree with them or believe they are "Not Ethical" in their opinion, there is a problem, a real problem.

That is the issue!

I do not believe any of us that really enjoy hunting and have been hunting any length of time, like or tolerate the "End Zone" displays some hunters seem to enjoy putting on, that is why I don't watch any of the hunting shows that appear on TV.

But the reason I made OP is because of what I feel is a more serious situation, hunters that actually admit to wanting to or would willingly support certain legal hunting methods outlawed because they do not agree with them.

We have enough enemies wanting to take hunting away from us, we don't need hunters adding to that number! JMO.

Jines, you have a disturbing habit of saying things and then forgetting what you said.

You are trying to contradict the statements you have made on this discussion and the one about hunting lions.

quote:

While unethical hunting practices may not need to be banned, responsible hunters should ban together to shun them. Ethics is knowing the difference between what you have the right to do and what is right to do. That is why ethics are more important than laws, always have been and always will be.

You didn't say the above did you?

quote:

So should unethical and irresponsible forms and methods of hunting be banned or outlawed . . . eventually they will be if allowed to persist . . . until then they should be shunned by responsible and ethical hunters.

You didn't say the above either did you?

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Jines, you have a disturbing habit of saying things and then forgetting what you said.

You are trying to contradict the statements you have made on this discussion and the one about hunting lions.

quote:

While unethical hunting practices may not need to be banned, responsible hunters should ban together to shun them. Ethics is knowing the difference between what you have the right to do and what is right to do. That is why ethics are more important than laws, always have been and always will be.

You didn't say the above did you?

quote:

So should unethical and irresponsible forms and methods of hunting be banned or outlawed . . . eventually they will be if allowed to persist . . . until then they should be shunned by responsible and ethical hunters.

You didn't say the above either did you?

You are positively and indisputably an idiot. The statement you made above is that I have said deer hunting in a blind over a timed feeder is unethical. I have never said that and you will never find a quote of mine saying that. I am done with this thread. I am spending productive time arguing with the village idiot. And worse, not just an idiot a liar as well.

And yes, I made both of the statements you quoted above. And stand by both. And neither say a damn thing close to suggesting that we should outlaw anything.

Give it up Jines all you can do is make insulting remarks about me that are complete lies.

Jines your intentions are clearly visible even if you are not using exact words.

You have stated, maybe not in the exact words but intimated that you completely support and agree, with Dogcats response!

quote:

Of course there are certain types of killing (it is not hunting) that should be banned as it is unethical and not fair chase by any means or definition of hunting.

1. Tower or released pheasant shoots. This is where the shooters get in a giant circle around a hill and pen raised pheasants are launched up and into the air where they fly over the gauntlet as shooters empty there guns on the birds. Sometimes called a European shoot.

2.Any hunting behind a high fence where pen raised animals are released to be shot. Pen raised are animals raised in a controlled environment, fed and habituated to human interaction.

3. Shooting any game animal from an enclosed hide over a feeder that is timed and regulated to attract the animal at prescribed times of the day. I would ban this on high fenced and non fenced areas. I have done this a few times and have come to the conclusion that it is ethically and morally wrong. Not different than baiting waterfowl but worse in a high fence enclosure.

4. Require that all gun owners and hunters attend and pass a rigorous testing course that requires proven proficiency in handling and shooting guns, detailed knowledge of game laws, and detailed knowledge of the specials you wish to hunt. This is done in many European countries and by PH training in Zimbabwe and other African countries.

5. Ban hunting from aircraft. Shooting pigs or coyotes from a helicopter is repugnant and wrong.

6. Adopt the B&C standards of fair chase across all states.

7. Ban the use of night vision optics except in tracking wounded game.

8. Increase the price of all hunting liscences to at least $100 for basic hunting priviledges. Money goes to state game departments to structure the hunting permit classes.

9. Require extensive guide/outfitter training to include proficiency with guns, horses (where appropriate), all laws, first aid, sanitary issues for camps, and trophy evaluation. Require an apprenticeship and demonstrated skills in the field.

As I commented earlier, while I do not agree with Dogcat, I at least respect him for being HONEST! A concept that seems to escape you!

That is something Ross said dumbass. You are not worth wasting further time on. As the comments of many others on this thread indicate, I am hardly alone in my opinion that you are an idiot. Candidly I did not expect you to be a liar to boot.

When you find my quote saying that hunting deer in a blind over a timed feeder is unethical, please share it. Until then you are demonstrably a liar.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

Okay Jines, you have already stated that hunting deer from a blind over a timed feerer is unethical!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
That is something Ross said dumbass. You are not worth wasting further time on. As the comments of many others on this thread indicate, I am hardly alone in my opinion that you are an idiot. Candidly I did not expect you to be a liar to boot.

When you find my quote saying that hunting deer in a blind over a timed feeder is unethical, please share it. Until then you are demonstrably a liar.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

Okay Jines, you have already stated that hunting deer from a blind over a timed feerer is unethical!

I have come to the conclusion that CHC is completely lacking in reading comprehension and that's why he fucks up in damn near every post when you start a debate or discussion with him. His posts are so far off from what people have actually posted when he responds that it's more than ridiculous. In fact, it's a damn shame that he continues to make mistake after mistake to the point where, as you mentioned, it's a waste of our valuable time to try to interact with him on an adult level! PS: Like you, I'm still waiting for him to find and post what he said I had posted more than once about outlawing certain types of hunting that exist right now when I have never even intimated such! He will never find them because there aren't any such posts under my username on this thread or any other thread on this site!

Well, CHC has demonstrated repeatedly that what you guys said, you actually didn't say, and what he says he didn't say, he actually said. Makes perfect sense.....?

MJines, you're actually a pretty reasonable guy when you're not using your other personality on the political board.

I think he got you mixed up with Dogcat and me.

We have stated or distestmeant for timed feeders.

It has been a long thread. I could see how a mistake like that could happen.

Well jines once again you resort tyo name calling.

Do you deny agreeing with the list Dogcat posted?

A list which included this:

3. Shooting any game animal from an enclosed hide over a feeder that is timed and regulated to attract the animal at prescribed times of the day. I would ban this on high fenced and non fenced areas.

If you Do Not/Did Not agree with Dogcats list, than I openly apologise to you.

While Randall may trip up from time to time in his message. His experiment was valid. He demonstrated that there are hunters who would throw others under the bus based on their opinion of ethics.

2 examples particularly stood out to me:

1) Outlawing coon hunting with hounds...an age old tradition of ethical sportsmen.

2) Outlawing timed-feeders for hunting whitetail deer.

This is from a discussion on the African Hunting topic area and explains the situation as I see it.

quote:

Uninformed public opinion on the subject of hunting is never going to be swayed by the opinions of hunters.

Hunters are never going to find common ground to unite on, does not matter whether it is North America or Africa.

It seems like all they can do, at least on the Accurate Reloading site is attack each other in one manner or another.

I am not going to stop trying to open hunters minds and eyes that remaining divided over basically minutiae is only going to bring about the end of hunting at an accelerated rate.

Why should I care about the future of hunting at my age, especially since I have no children or grandchildren that I will be leaving behind that might not or would not be able to experience something I lived to do my whole life.

Really sad that personal attitudes developed on an internet website toward individuals a person does not really know and probably will never meet in their lives, prevents people from finding common ground on issues affecting both parties.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

Really sad that personal attitudes developed on an internet website toward individuals a person does not really know and probably will never meet in their lives, prevents people from finding common ground on issues affecting both parties.

It's no great revelation. You do, and have done the same thing. I remember specifically your thoughts on believing the New vs Old Testaments in the bible. You didn't agree, therefore you didn't budge.

Moral to the story is if people believe in their hearts they are right, nothing you, me, or anyone else says will matter. Discussions on hunting aren't any different. Oh, and if you ever did meet some of these resident jackasses in person, I bet they'd be much different when out from behind their keyboards.

quote:

Moral to the story is if people believe in their hearts they are right, nothing you, me, or anyone else says will matter. Discussions on hunting aren't any different. Oh, and if you ever did meet some of these resident jackasses in person, I bet they'd be much different when out from behind their keyboards.

No arguement there.

In fact I have had the opportunity to meet quite a few people off of the various forums I have been on and the majority have been or are really good folks.

With that said I have met some that actually were what they came across as, good or bad.

The biggest problem to me is that it is all too easy to develop an attitude toward or about other individuals, whether it is a good or bad attitude and when they make a response or a comment on an issue depending on our attitude toward that person we either openly oppose it or totally agree with it, but really do not take ther time to actually read the response/comment and try to understand what they are getting at.

From expereience on these sites once a person develops a hatred toward another individual because they view life in general differently, they will purposely follow that individual to other sites, just to hound them.

Also, once a person gets a reputation on a couple of sites as being someone that does not "Go Along with The Group Thought To Get Along", they never lose it.

I'm done with this thread. If I want to see name calling from obnoxious posters, I'd visit the Political section here. I don't.

None of this means much to me anymore since my hunting days are done anyway.

Carry on.

quote:

Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:
I'm done with this thread. If I want to see name calling from obnoxious posters, I'd visit the Political section here. I don't.

None of this means much to me anymore since my hunting days are done anyway.

Carry on.

Tony,
I am sorry to hear this. You have been the voice of reason throughout.

Below IMHO is the best post on the thread if CHC will just read it SLOWLY and maybe read it several times:

While unethical hunting practices may not need to be banned, responsible hunters should ban together to shun them. Ethics is knowing the difference between what you have the right to do and what is right to do. That is why ethics are more important than laws, always have been and always will be. It has been said that in civilized life, laws float in a sea of ethics. In other words, laws form the basis for the minimum acceptable level of performance, ethics have us seek a higher level of performance. This is true in business, medicine, law, science and any field of human endeavor . . . including hunting. So should unethical and irresponsible forms and methods of hunting be banned or outlawed . . . eventually they will be if allowed to persist . . . until then they should be shunned by responsible and ethical hunters.
Mike

I'm all for if it's legal do it. If we start outlawing any type of hunting as hunters ourselves it could open a big flood gate.

Thank You Tony your input was appreciated.

If nothing else comes out of this, maybe some that have just read thru of the discussion will begin evaluating or re-evaluating their own personal beliefs about hunting.

Raider cxonsidering this comment you made:

quote:

I remember specifically your thoughts on believing the New vs Old Testaments in the bible. You didn't agree, therefore you didn't budge.

I really do not believe that comparing an individuals religious ideology, because of the way they aquire it, is even remotely related to the way an individual develops their attitudes/beliefs toward hunting.

If that were possible religions would not have caused the deaths of millions of people over the centuries.

Right now, at this point in time it seems like some hunters are more concerned with a hunter acting like an idiot after a legal kill that was done in a legal manner instead of concentrating on getting all hunters to hunt legally.

I can run down a long list of types/methods of hunting I do not agree with and will not personally ever partake in, but I will never support the closure of ANY Legally Recognised hunting method if for no other reason than than hunting conditions/the way or manner any particular species can be hunted/has to be hunted is not exactly the same world wide, there is no One Size Fits all.

Once again Top Gun, you fail to see the concept.

Justv read what Randy Routier stated:

quote:

I'm all for if it's legal do it. If we start outlawing any type of hunting as hunters ourselves it could open a big flood gate.

Who decides what is and is not legal and what happens if the "Ethics Police" decide something YOU do is unethical and YOU need to be:

quote:

shunned by responsible and ethical hunters.

No Sir, as Mr. Routier pointed out once concepts like shutting down Legal Hunting methods because some hunters finds them unethical, Pandora's Box will have been open and no ones form pof hunting will be safe.

Just another sad aspect of the whole deal is that many of us will never live long enough to see legal hunting methods in America shut down over "Ethics" it will be the future generations that will be the ones that lose.

As far as hunting anything in Africa is concerned, I have this nagging belief that between the manner Communism seems to be growing in the varioius countries, the political instability of practically all the African countries seem to suffer from and the evidently growing negative attitude toward whites, I fear that All hunting in Africa by Non-Africans is going to end with in the next 3 decades or less. That is just my opinion and everyone knows what opinions are worth.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Once again Top Gun, you fail to see the concept.

Justv read what Randy Routier stated: [QUOTE]I'm all for if it's legal do it. If we start outlawing any type of hunting as hunters ourselves it could open a big flood gate.

Who decides what is and is not legal and what happens if the "Ethics Police" decide something YOU do is unethical and YOU need to be:

quote:

shunned by responsible and ethical hunters.

No Sir, as Mr. Routier pointed out once concepts like shutting down Legal Hunting methods because some hunters finds them unethical, Pandora's Box will have been open and no ones form of hunting will be safe.
QUOTE]

No, it is you that can't read and comprehend what is written and that's why we all get so upset with you! That post I put up says nothing about us as hunters getting anything banned just like I have never said I would support banning anything in particular that is now legal. It's not hunter's votes that are going to get anything banned that is on the books right now. It's also not the nut case PETA and HSUS people that will get something banned because there aren't enough votes to get it done. It's the people straddling the fence that make up the majority of voters that CAN get something banned if it gets on a ballot if they see hunting portrayed as everything being in a small enclosure like those wing nut groups and the media like to portray what all hunting is like, or they see videos of those idiots winging bullets at animals 1/2 mile away and wounding them. When we raised hell with that guy I mentioned earlier posting that garbage out on Youtube we told him to knock it off because it was detrimental to our sport and was not helping our cause at all. We didn't propose to eliminate long range shooting because of one idiot like that even though a lot of us greatly dislike it! That is what is meant when we say that we need to police our own ranks and try to establish to the "fence people" what true hunting is really like. The big problem is that as we lose the old timers that came up knowing what true hunting is all about we are seeing more of the young folks looking for the easy way out to fill a tag and hunting is now just a big "industry" and is nothing like it was back in the 50s as I was growing up.

Legal and ethical are two different birds. Just because something is legal does not necessarily mean it is ethical. We all have different height bars for what is ethical or not.

Is it ethical to use walkie-talkies or cell phones to coordinate a hunt or alert other hunters? GPS?

I have a couple of hunting bows (one-piece recurves) that have no metal. Only the broad head on the [wood] arrows. I don't own a compound bow. Would I expect others to do that? No. That's just my own personal challenge. Is in ethical that I shoot a bow without sights? Some would say that isn't "ethically" accurate. In some folks hands that is true. I shoot almost every day and limit my range BECAUSE I want to be an ethical hunter and kill quickly. At my bow hunting course I went for the proficiency exam (allows you to hunt certain areas like airports and parks on special occasions). I passed. There were guys with compounds that missed the target frames of three stacked straw baled placed sideways, let alone the 10" kill zone! (Three out of five hits in the kill from 5 to 45 yards - unmarked distaces). It was still legal for them to go out that fall bowhunting - but they were more likely to wound than kill. Or, hopefully, miss entirely.

Your state game and local laws decide what is legal. Your own beliefs and those of the society you live in decide what is ethical . . . or maybe not.

When I first started deer hunting (after I was married in 1980) Sunday hunting of deer was not allowed in this part of the state. I hunted on state lands or with farmer's permission, and if I had the skill to make a 1,000 yard shot I would have had three or four angry hunters who would want to speak with me about shooting over their heads, and by the time I walked that far to the deer someone else would have tagged it. We had a wild three-week season. But in this area 40 yards is about average for a kill distance on whitetail.

Now the season is longer, there are fewer hunters, and as long as they obey the state laws it's all good. I have worked hard and been blessed with my home situated where I can hunt my own property. Took a nice eight point with firearm and a six point with bow this past fall. I have no plans to ever "pay to play" or travel for a guided hunt - but that's all good as well for those that want that. i have no mounts in the house. A couple of the better antler sets on skull caps and one fallow deer - another "ethical" discussion - I culled off my property that had escaped an illegal game preserve miles away. What I like is a good string of fall days afield and a full freezer.

You do what you like - but keep it legal. ;-)

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

Raider cxonsidering this comment you made:

quote:

I remember specifically your thoughts on believing the New vs Old Testaments in the bible. You didn't agree, therefore you didn't budge.

I really do not believe that comparing an individuals religious ideology, because of the way they aquire it, is even remotely related to the way an individual develops their attitudes/beliefs toward hunting.

If that were possible religions would not have caused the deaths of millions of people over the centuries.

Once again, you completely missed the point, and misrepresented the spirit of my post:

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

Really sad that personal attitudes developed on an internet website toward individuals a person does not really know and probably will never meet in their lives, prevents people from finding common ground on issues affecting both parties.

It's no great revelation. You do, and have done the same thing. I remember specifically your thoughts on believing the New vs Old Testaments in the bible. You didn't agree, therefore you didn't budge.

Moral to the story is if people believe in their hearts they are right, nothing you, me, or anyone else says will matter. Discussions on hunting aren't any different. Oh, and if you ever did meet some of these resident jackasses in person, I bet they'd be much different when out from behind their keyboards.

quote:

Once again, you completely missed the point, and misrepresented the spirit of my post:

Okay can you explain in reasonable terms your point or the spirit of your post? I really/honestly would like to comprehend your thoughts/belioefs on this issue.

Topgun, as for your comments if you would simply open your mind and eyes and actually READ my comnments you would/could clearly see that I am NOT defending the idiotic actions of those that do the "End Zone" celebrations when they kill something.

There are a lot of things hunters do that I do not approve of. There are LEGAL FORMS OF HUNTING, I do not approve of, but as long as the governing body in charge of establishing what IS legal and what ISN'T, declares that a method is LEGAL, I am NOT going to object to it.

What is WRONG with that??????

What is dividing hunters is the concepts of Ethics Versus Legal Methods!

If any of us Do Not like a certain method, No One is going to FORCE us to participate.

But just because a LEGAL hunting method does not meet our OWN PERSONAL ETHICAL beliefs, does that automatically indicate we should support the banning/outlawing of of that method????

This has been an ongoing, for lack of a better word, FIGHT that has been in existance for centuries. Europe is the classic example.

Even though things have changed or may be changing, hunting, with the exception of ferreting for rabbits or rats was reserved for the Ruling Classes/Gentry.

Even Theodore Roosevelt believe that the "Common Man" or working classes did not really comprehend or was capable of understanding the LORDLY concepts of being a hunter.

Do you or anyone else care to read about TR's and Kermit's African Safari and take note of how many animals they killed or that when traveling on the rivers, TR would shoot every croc or hippo that presented the opportunity, but for him that was perfectly ethical.

Topgun you make comments that I agree with such as not supporting Long Range shooting, but as long as any of us that call ourselves hunters are openly willing to support the outlawing or banning of ANY LEGAL method of hunting because it goes against our "ETHICS", be aware that if hunters lose their ability to hunt by methods that have been deemed LEGAL for decades in many cases, they will NOT support those hunters that supported the closing of their way of hunting because of ETHICS!

I am betting this thread reaches 8+ pages

One day, it may be unethical to even kill

We may end up just laser tag animals

Or how about Alaska, you wound bear, you have to tag out, as Nute found out the hard way

As technology progresses I think we are getting more and more stupid with more and more laws

quote:

I am betting this thread reaches 8+ pages

What will be wrong with that, if it causes people to think?

quote:

As technology progresses I think we are getting more and more stupid with more and more laws

You might be right Milan, but I think the bigger problem is that some hunters actually believe that they can some how convince people that at this point in time, really do not care how hunters conduct themselves as long as they are being responsible and legal.

Anyone with any sort of an Open Mind and Open Eyes, should be able to comprehend how competitive Americans have became during the past two decades.

Does not matter what it is, if it can be turned into a "Competition", Americans will be right there, High Fiving/Slapping Butts/ Jumping Up and Down Hollering and Bragging, and that includes HUNTING!!!!

The number of laws have not really changed and contrary to some folks opinion, modern Game Laws in America at least really had nothing to do with ETHICS, but with wildlife biologists and concerned hunters pointing out that while a method might be LEGAL, it wasn't the ETHICS of using that method but the ACTUAL EFFECTS that method had on the populations of game.

Fortunately, there were Americans that realized and were able to convince hunters and those in power in our government, that if game birds and animals were going to continue to exist in huntable numbers, LAWS/REGULATIONS were going to have to be implemented to help all species maintain numbers so that hunting could remain viable in this country.

People had actually witnessed the decline of the Buffalo and eradication of the Passenger Pigeon, neither of which had anything to do with ETHICS, but with the demand for meat and other by products from buffalo and the belief that Passenger Pigeons were an inexhaustible source of food.

There were people at that time that were watching and realised what was taking place, but by the time actions started being taken it was too late for the Passenger Pigeon and the Buffalo just managed to hold on.

The problem, as I see it today, is that regardless of what anyone says or thinks, hunting is no longer an intergal part of our society and more and more people, because they have not/did not grow up in a home where hunting was simply part of the make up of the family and the families and the families collective knowledge about nature/the outdoors and animals had been learned from Disney and Marty Stouffer.

No actual first hand knowledge of the Natural World and the actual role Humans had played in it since we began walking upright.

Milan, I have no problem with laws concerning our ability to hunt, until laws begin being created that state a hunter can not shoot something because there is a vehicle within half a mile or a water hole within a quarter mile!

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
[QUOTE]Post number five in this shit storm.OB

Just checking since the post I made Thaking Lane for his comments was on page 5.

You may not understand it but this "Shit Storm" openly shows why hunters are in the running for which group will bring about the end of hunting!

You may find it comical, but I find it pretty damn pitiful that some hunters openly admit to being willing to support the closure of some forms of hunting because it does not meet with their "ETHICAL" standars.

You and others may not find this somewhat disturbing, but I do![/QUOTE)

Nothing you say or do will change anybodies mind from what they think is right and visa versa.This is what you have accomplished>

I understand what you are getting at and I do apologise if I offended you, it was not really my intention to offend you, nor have I meant to offend anyone, but in all honesty/sincerity, I really do not like the idea that those that will be/should be following us into the hunting fields will not or may not be able to do so because TODAY'S hunters simply can not understand the future of hunting really does depend on US putting aside petty differences and finding common ground that we can all live with if not agree upon.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
[QUOTE]I am betting this thread reaches 8+ pages

What will be wrong with that, if it causes people to think?

Well it’s certainly caused you to think since 1/3 to 1/2 the posts are yours...

Why does it matter to you how many posts anyone has on any subject?

That is an honest question. Why are you concerned when the folks running the site aren't?